Ezra Klein attempts to rebut Jane’s reasons for opposing the bill. Many of his arguments are weak at best. For example he says about the excise tax:
“You” probably don’t have these plans, which are tilted towards the rich, not the middle class. Your plan probably doesn’t cost more than $23,000 a year. And if it does, the only part that gets taxed is the part in excess of $23,000 a year. The average family health-care plan costs about $13,500 — almost a full $10,000 less than the plans this policy taxes. If we don’t manage to slow the growth in health-care costs, this policy will, over time, hit plans that are less generous. But economists consider the excise tax, which functions as a tax on insurers who let premiums grow too quickly, one of the most effective cost-control mechanisms in the bill.
Klein is doing a disservice by trying to downplay the effect of having this excise tax not properly indexed. In the first year, it will hit very few plans, but over time, it will quickly grow. By 2016, the CBO says it will affect 19% of people with employer-provided health insurance (roughly 30 million Americans):
Specifically, an estimated 19 percent of workers with employment-based coverage would be affected by the excise tax in that year. Those individuals who kept their high-premium policies would pay a higher premium than under current law, with the difference in premiums roughly equal to the amount of the tax. However, CBO and JCT estimate that most people would avoid the cost of the excise tax by enrolling in plans that had lower premiums; those reductions would result from choosing plans that either pay a smaller share of covered health care costs (which would reduce premiums directly as well as indirectly by leading to less use of covered medical services), manage benefits more tightly, or cover fewer services.
By 2019, it would affect the health insurance of roughly 58 million. When Klein says “economists” believe it is “one of the most effective cost-control mechanisms in the bill,” he clearly is not referring to the professional actuaries at CMS who think it will only reduce national health expenditures by 0.3% by 2019:
We estimate that, in aggregate, affected employers would reduce their benefit packages in such a way as to eliminate about three-quarters of the current excess benefit value. The resulting higher cost-sharing requirements for employees would have an initial, significant impact on the overall level of health expenditures. Moreover, because health care costs would generally increase faster than the CPI plus 1 percent, we anticipate additional, incremental benefit coverage reductions in future years to prevent an increase in the share of employer coverage subject to the excise tax. These further adjustments would contribute to a small reduction in the growth in health care expenditures for affected employees through at least 2019.16 In 2019, these impacts would reduce total NHE by an estimated 0.3 percent.
Klein said it is critical to have this excise tax provision, but he is critical of Jane for demanding that drug re-importation–which is likely to produce even greater reductions in NHE–be part of the bill. A public option would also likely produce an equally large reduction in NHE.
Klein also uses some very dubious data to defend the myth that this bill will really bend the cost curve.
It’s not even clear what this is supposed to mean. According to the Congressional Budget Office, this bill reduces the average cost of premiums by a little bit for most people, and a ton for the people the bill directly affects. According to the Center for Medicare and Medicaid Services, the bill cuts spending in the long term.
The CBO analysis only said premiums for people with employer-provided insurance will change by an average of -3 to +1 in 2016. Part of that is that roughly 19% of those people would be forced into plans with lower premiums, but higher out-of-pocket costs. Harry Reid also temporarily removed the ban annual limits (which he has since reinserted) to possibly make this CBO report on premiums appear better.
Finally, contrary to what Klein claims, the CMS does not say the bill would reduce NHE. The CMS says the bill would increase NHE by 0.7% in 2019, which is as far as their analysis looks into the future. Klein links to a story where someone takes the CMS numbers and tries to extrapolate another decade into the future. This is questionable at best, and if the goal was to “bend the cost curve,” clearly, the possibility that it might come down slightly in distant future is pretty much a failure.
This bill is making huge concessions the the medical-industrial complex. It would funnel billions of taxpayer dollars to this complex, and force millions of people to become customers of the private health insurance industry. This is the best chance we have to exert maximum leverage for real reform. If we cannot get more now, I don’t see how the fight becomes easier after enriching, empowering, and further entreching the powerful special interests that killed real reform this time around.




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The Senate bill does indeed empower our institutional enemies in the subsequent fight to “fix it later.” Funny, that.
Any wagers on how many fund raiser emails you’ll receive the day after the bill signing to raise money to “fight to fix” the POS that gets declared out of conference?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fkuOAY-S6OY
Dear Government I take pen in hand to say this to you, and Merry Fucking Christmas.
Fuck you I won’t do what you tell me.
Ezra Klein has a point of view that well-informed people can disagree with, but he certainly knows what he is talking about, and he presents cogent arguments. Jane’s list of 10 shortcomings was a half-reasoned, misleading appeal to emotion.
If anybody wants to go beyond bumper-sticker arguments and start to understand the health care maze, reading Ezra Klein’s rebuttal to Jane’s list is not a bad placed to begin.
Oh okay, I get it now, Huck: it’s the emotionally unstable woman vs. the serious, reasoned man. Wow, I’ve never heard that one before…
Nate Silver says we shouldn’t “overthink this bill” which is a very difficult argument for such a wonky fellah to be making.
C’mon, leave Ezra alone; he just wants to be the next press secretary.
And then maybe after that the next new George Snufflufagus…
Nate Silver says that Ben Nelson is “gutsy” for supporting this bill.
Oof…! That’ll leave a mark…! ;-)
Can you believe that Holy Joe is collaborating Feingold’s word…! I’m not sure if I’m more pissed at Obama or Rahmbo…!
the buck does not stop the the chief of staff’s desk. It stops with only one man.
Nate Silver says we shouldn’t “overthink this bill” which is a very difficult argument for such a wonky fellah to be making.
If by “overthink,” he means “closely look at,” he has a point.
I think the distinction between the liberal bloggers who support the bill and the ones who think it’s a piece of junk is that the former rose to prominence the traditional way in their professions — journalism and, in the case of Paul Krugman, academics/economics — and the latter didn’t.
Jane and Markos truly are outsiders; Kevin Drum, Josh Marshall, Ezra Klein and Matthew Iglesias, despite blogging, and in the case of Josh, running a Web site, are successful mainstream journalists. (I don’t know Nate’s background.) Marshall hired Matt Cooper, for Christ’s sake. I can’t imagine Jane making that mistake without first submitting to a frontal lobotomy.
can i pile on ezra too?
from kip sullivan at pnhp: Does Ezra Klein really think “managed care didn’t kill anyone”?
I don’t really understand how you are supposed to “fix” the bill with future Congresses that will have a lot fewer Democrats. Wasn’t the point that this was the best chance for real reform? I’ve seen quite a few moderates make this argument and I suppose they are hoping that you can tinker some at the margins and build something good in the long term, but a/ you can’t guarantee Democratic control because somehow the Republicans have gone from a party that will not see power for a generation to one that has a shot in the reasonably close future and b/ it’s pretty hard to build your castle in the sky up from a hovel. Okay, it’s great to have the hovel, but it seems like a pretty low base to build on.
The Outsiders are right! One only needs to step back and look at the “macro-economics” of the Senate HCR bill to decide that it should be killed: the recent climb in health care stocks; the 4-year delay for activating most of the bill; and the difficulty that Congress has had in dealing with this ostensibly popular cause.
I’ve read that Ezra certainly knows what he is talking about, and he presents cogent arguments. I also read that Saddam has WMD and that the economy’s fundamentals are strong.
I fully agree with this part…
Marcy would have a field day with Matt…! It’d get pretty gruesome…! ;-)
Hee hee.
Jon, fix the title –you misspelled Egomaniac.
One thing you can say for sure about the senate bill: all the economic analysis and projections will prove wrong.
The CBO numbers…?
All means all. No one has a clue how this will turn out.
I’ve never understood the importance of a general reduction of national health expenditures. Something like re-importation makes sense — it would reduce the amount a person must pay out. But the tax on better plans seems doesn’t really help anyone. Is it just about finding something/anything to levy a tax on in order to get the revenue?
Does Obama’s words assuage you…?
Selise posted his email to Dems today downstairs…
Also, to solve any economic problems, just cut taxes on the wealthy.
thanks. i needed a laugh before signing off…
happy solstice to all…..
The sooner the better. I wish it would start up right away, at least a good ways before 2012.
Aloha, M’dear…! *g*
O is all talk and no action. Sometimes not even talk.
Sent you an email. Happy solstice to you too. It’s one of my favorite nights of the year, since after, days get longer.
We had a little more excitement than usual here…! The storm that dumped 5″ of snow on Mauna Kea spawned it…! ;-)
Haven’t read comments yet, just wanted to post link to Jane’s segment on Ed Show tonight. Click on the link called “Winning Back the Base.” Jane was remarkably calm & determined. She even started off by asking a question of Ed!
Kos on Countdown right now! He argues the HCR bill is “not reform.”
O’Donnell on Countdown just asked Kos what he thinks of FDL’s “ten reasons to kill the [Senate] bill.” Kos is good, says we are still fighting. Things can still change, “any positive change will be because we keep pushing.” P.S. Kos said anyone who thinks lower health ins. premiums will lead to higher wages for blue collar workers “is high.”
Jane was remarkably calm & determined.
*sigh* Ain’t she grand…? ;-)
yup. we’re lucky to have her out there for us. makes me happy. *g*
(sorry to be slow in replying, was watching Countdown’s segment on the D.C. detective who “brought a gun to a snowball fight”)
Did you catch the Westen post on HP today?
Nate Silver says we shouldn’t “overthink this bill” which is a very difficult argument for such a wonky fellah to be making.
*
I was screamin’ at the teevee again through that segment. Matthews was letting Nate have his say uninterrupted and then, when asked a specific question, Nate never answered it. Then Chris jumped all over Darcy Burner’s ass with a stream of interruptions. Matthews makes me so sick! He gets man crushes on people like Nate and Chuck Todd who can deliver predictions for elections but then extrapolates that adoration onto discussions like tonight’s where Silver just didn’t have the goods. Burner did. When is Walker gonna get his shot on the Ed Show or Countdown?????????????????
Stick with statistics, Silver. Policy is not your thang.
CBO issued its first (probably of many) OOOPS memos yesterday, about the post-2019 savings, which had been erroneously (and vastly) overestimated.
Good teevee Jane! When the show ended with the Senator (was it McCaskill?) crowing about how yes, there WAS competition I kept hoping Ed would have read the rebuttal here (Jon’post below) to that argument that what they are calling competative has not shown that it controls costs but in fact has kept pace wiht private insurance costs.
ATTN ED SCHULTZ!!!!!
http://fdlaction.firedoglake.com/2009/12/21/removing-the-individual-mandate-would-reduce-the-cbo-score/
“Finally, Sliver’s health care continuum shows a lack of detailed understanding of the subject. He ranks the Wyden-Bennett bill on par with single payer. This is simply a conclusion I don’t think can be reached looking at the facts available. (It is arguable that the Dutch or German health care system might be on par with single payer, but Wyden-Bennett lacks many of the critical cost control mechanisms found in those systems.)
Ignoring that most of Wyden-Bennett supposed “savings” come from failing to properly index the subsidies, its basic goal is to put every American on the FEHB exchange of private insurance plans. The problem is that the FEHB and private insurance companies are a proven failure at reducing cost. Health care costs on the FEHB have grown at the same rate as the rest of the market. On the other hand, it cost roughly 25% less to insure someone with Medicare than with private insurance. Wyden-Bennett might result in a minor reduction in health care spending. Medicare-for-all would cut our health care spending by roughly 20%, and do a better job of slowing our health care growth rates. There is no comparison.
If Silver thinks Wyden-Bennett is as good as single payer, it is no wonder he tries to diminish the importance of the public option. I think a public option is critical because all the data indicates public insurance has done a dramatically better job at controlling health care costs than private insurance. I think his continuum is all wrong. The reform bill with a truly robust public option (Medicare buy in) would rank dramatically above Wyden-Bennett. A Medicare buy-in that would be around 11-25% cheaper than private insurance companies. It would have a much better chance of reducing health care spending than any system of private insurances exchanges that lack a central provider reimbursement negotiator.
“
Chris Matthews has a woman problem. Always has. Admitted it, practically.
This bill cannot be fixed as it’s being built upon a failed Free Market ideology.
The following interchange makes it clear that Obama is pursuing a failed path:
REP. HENRY WAXMAN: The question I have for you is, you had an ideology, you had a belief that free, competitive — and this is your statement — “I do have an ideology. My judgment is that free, competitive markets are by far the unrivaled way to organize economies. We’ve tried regulation. None meaningfully worked.” That was your quote.
You had the authority to prevent irresponsible lending practices that led to the subprime mortgage crisis. You were advised to do so by many others. And now our whole economy is paying its price.
Do you feel that your ideology pushed you to make decisions that you wish you had not made?
ALAN GREENSPAN: Well, remember that what an ideology is, is a conceptual framework with the way people deal with reality. Everyone has one. You have to — to exist, you need an ideology. The question is whether it is accurate or not.
And what I’m saying to you is, yes, I found a flaw. I don’t know how significant or permanent it is, but I’ve been very distressed by that fact.
REP. HENRY WAXMAN: You found a flaw in the reality…
ALAN GREENSPAN: Flaw in the model that I perceived is the critical functioning structure that defines how the world works, so to speak.
REP. HENRY WAXMAN: In other words, you found that your view of the world, your ideology, was not right, it was not working?
ALAN GREENSPAN: That is — precisely. No, that’s precisely the reason I was shocked, because I had been going for 40 years or more with very considerable evidence that it was working exceptionally well.
Maxine Waters was very calm too. Larry O’Donnell asked her if she could vote for the senate bill which is apparently funded with taxes on union health care. She said she might — basically saying she needs to see the bill first. Well, duh.
Calm and cold and uncaring. Progressives throwing the public under the bus.
The ‘lil boy’s figured out that he can best fulfill his life mission of self-promotion by shilling for the president. Good for him. Can we please stop reading and talking about him now? We’re giving the child unwarranted attention.
Klein has proven himself a water carrier for the entrenched status quo corporate elites.
In too many links and articles to add here, I’m sure you know where to find them.
To dismiss that, and hold fast to your comment, and also wield it against Mz. Hamsher’s post is pedestrian.
And hackneyed, in and of itself. Do you carry Ezra’s laptop when he’s carryin the water bucket?
Nate’s dug hisself in deep in the past few months with metric babble that doesn’t match up with the reality at hand.
A prisoner of numbers, that can be manipulated to show what the manipulator wishes them to show.
Another water carrier, it seems . . . whether on staff or a volunteer, I don’t know. Same end result, though.
*G*
Thanks for that, I was wanting to look at Ed’s segments, wasn’t sure how they were listed! Thanks!
how much of a gut does Nelson have?
I don’t think it is OT. if I have erred I apologize.
I put this here for information. You can believe as you choose. To me this is indicative of just how much care there really is for the welfare of humanity and it points to far more sinister endeavors, and more going on than you can imagine. If you think I wear a tinfoil hat so be it. What goes down in the world is never readily apparent in U.S. S&MSM.
It is a long video but worth the watch.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PelTWCUmTsU
As if we need a reminder … “Essentially, all models are wrong, but some are useful” George E. P. Box
Someone should email this wake up link to Nate:
The Hubris of Economics by Ritholtz
Too bad 3/4 of his site’s active users think he’s nuts (Dkos). He should spend more time posting there instead of letting it be dominated, via the diaries, by the rubber-stamp-everything-with-Obama’s-approval centrists that have flocked to that site.
you simply cannot overestimate the deep revulsion that people like Klein and Silver feel for progressive activists. Silver writes brilliantly about public opinion polling and elections, and in the context of the 2008 elections, became a progressive hero because he had a fairly strong attachment to reality. But he knows very little about health care, as noted above.
Klein does not know nearly as much as he believes. His fetish for the Dutch system ignores obvious historical realities:
1. It’s three years old. There’s no way to tell whether it’s working or not.
2. It was created due to two trends that should raise warning flags for progressives. First, it followed a full-on US style lobbying campaign by the insurance industry, which saw an opportunity to crack open the European market, and
3. that lobbying campaign was successful in the context of rapid social polarization, particularly around race, in the broader Dutch society. The creation of the Dutch system is a historical move away from social democracy and solidarity, and toward the individualist values that, while appealing in many ways, are phenomenally destructive in the context of health care economics. In other words, the Dutch system came into existence as an expression of political and social movement toward those values within US society that progressives generally resist, and away from those we generally embrace. These trends in Dutch society started gaining momentum when Klein was in diapers.
4. And, of course, it’s been a bait and switch all along. The Senate bill bears no relationship at all to the regulatory structure of the Dutch system. I’m a single payer supporter, but I’d take the Dutch system in a heartbeat if it was on the table. It’s not.
Ezra’s kind of a self-important dick from what I’ve seen/heard.
The constant reiteration that forcing 30 million people to become covered by private insurance, the so-called mandate, has been grating on me for quite a while. The arguments seem to centered around the idea that those people that cannot afford the 8% cost of insurance out of their own pocket should buck up because of all of the other nifty parts of the bill. Today I started thinking about a book I read when I was about 12 and realized a bit more about why this bothers me so much.
Mandating that people buy from private insurance companies while ignoring what is best for them because it serves the greater good is pure corporatism. In “The Animal Farm” we were told that some animals are more equal than others. Corporatism has no such problems. If you can’t serve the needs of the state you have no purpose.
Which is why the shut-up and like it argument fails to persuade.
Yeah, I know, yet another loon that doesn’t believe in private profit and public losses. Still it’s fairly useful to remember that shock-and-awe and blitzkrieg are just different words for the same approach. And by the way in this version of the story Obama is not commander-in-chief so much as chief supplicant. Just ask McChrystal. Do I have a solution? Not a chance. Just dust in the wind.
(The book was the Rise and Fall of the Third Reich. There is not much overlap with the current situation but then, contrary to the cliches, history does not repeat itself and each person that has ever existed is unique. Lessons are always subtle.)
CBO and JCT estimate that most people would avoid the cost of the excise tax by enrolling in plans that had lower premiums; those reductions would result from choosing plans that either pay a smaller share of covered health care costs (which would reduce premiums directly as well as indirectly by leading to less use of covered medical services), manage benefits more tightly, or cover fewer services.
please don’t tell me that I’m reading this correctly, that Klein is saying the excise tax is important because it motivates people to have LESS HEALTH CARE COVERAGE. No, please don’t say the argument really is THAT STUPID.
Yes it is.
You appear to be correct.
The excise tax will force people to take higher copays and accept less coverage so average plan cost to the insured come down. Much more effective than mandating cost controls and standards of service because it lets the market work, after a fashion. Then, as they seek less coverage because they can’t afford the sick-tax, the people that actually need the health care but find that it costs too much will simply fade off the rolls.
Kind of like the people that have been unemployed too long. They stop being unemployed because they don’t get benefits any longer.
Too bad about the “overinsured” won’t know until tax time rolls around and they find out they can’t pay their taxes because they thought they were on the acceptable edge of the rules and now owe thousands more.
Probably time to open a tax day lending company. Sort of like the credit card company that charges 79% interest.
you simply cannot overestimate the deep revulsion that people like Klein and Silver feel for progressive activists.
Oh, I am glad, he’s so intelligent, cognitive dissonance would never be a problem with his ilk. What progressives have done in this country must have been not been included in his curriculum vitae where real men and woman willing to die for their rights get air brushed from reality.
Klein is a wonk and a “shooting star” who has been given undeserved importance due to being at the right place at the right time and his age. Wonks in the end always fall behind their team and do their best to rationalize to their readers/listeners, and to themselves, why they’re supporting such weak or harmful positions. They may be politically centrist at heart, have no desire to agitate, or simply see Democratic victories as the best and only option for any sort of change in this country. They may also strive to gain status by playing nice, not taking a strong position against both parties or other mainstream pundits.
As for the being a “shooting star”, he is likely detached from reality and lives in a world where his opinion on anything is given great importance and praise. He has made his way up by playing his cards right, being at the right place at the right time, and not ruffling any feathers. So in just a few years, largely based on his poll analysis at a couple of Democratic Party-affiliated blogs, he’s suddenly a highly important political analyst at a major newspaper. If I became so important in such a manner so quickly myself, I think I’d also become a bit full of myself.
I also see similar parallels to Obama’s quick rise to fame. Of course they’re are not lazy, talentless dopes, but their rise to fame and acceptance by the mainstream (in the DC beltway) was unusually rapid.
Let’s leave the ad hominem criticisms of Ezra out, as I think he is sincerely trying to make sense of this.
That said, I fail to see how shifting taxation on expensive plans results in profound changes when the underlying model is unbridled health insurer (sic) greed.
The Medical Loss Rate gap is a huge giveaway to insurers.
To the point about taxing “cadillac” health plans: I’m all for it if they’re owned by people who also drive cadillacs. I’m NOT for taxing them if they’re owned by working people whose unions have fought to get and keep them in lieu of wage raises – as has frequently happened. Bottom line: tax the hell out of rich people’s cadillac plans AND their incomes if it’s necessary to fund health care.
Yes…this is the last straw.
Time for MASSIVE defiance and civil disobedience.
We MUST NOT SUBMIT to this blatant FEUDALISM.
If they had tried this in France, workers would have shut the country down – which they have.
The French government is AFRAID of its people.
The U.S. government LAUGHS at its people as it bends them over and sodomizes them again…and again…and again…
Lets see, Ezra destroys Janes 10 points and you grumble that:
1) By 2016, the richest 20 % of the pop will be taxed (a small amount) to support the subsidizes for those who cannot afford health care. Umm, isnt that good? We are all progressives here right? Or do you support the amazingly regressive policy of letting the richest receive health care tax free while those without employer health care use their taxed income to buy health insurance?!!
2) The cost controls might not work. Well, then … they will have to be fixed. I think people should be happy that there is an attempt at cost control (as opposed to the Mass system where there was none.) Again, not a reason to kill the bill – rather a reason to pass it and improve it!
Also can we quit the crap about who supported the iraq war and who didnt. You can count me for one as a vocal protestor against the war and a supporter of health care reform. Also see Krugman.
An apter analogy is those whose self-righteousness led them to support Nader in 2000 (and or stay home) thus doing significant harm to the country.
You have a funny definition of “destroy.” I was inclined to read his rebuttals as weak spin, at best. As a whole, this bill sucks. The Senate bill’s sole purpose seems to be weakening what the House came up with — which was, at best, a starting point — and making sure the industry that created our fiasco of a “system” actually gets rewarded as a result. Did you notice how Ezra would pick one of Jane’s points and proclaim that this one point wasn’t reason enough to kill the bill? WTF. This bill is a joke, and a piss poor starting point in trying to reform HC in this country.
In addition, right of the bat I was put off by his “you,” in quotation marks — as if… what?
“Let’s leave the ad hominem criticisms of Ezra out, as I think he is sincerely trying to make sense of this”
I agree!–be nice. Ezra Klein is the future of the Republican Party.