People hate the mandate?

“I’m Shocked!, Shocked I tell you…”.

If everyday Americans can find that answer in the “No shit Sherlock!” file why can’t the mindless village idiots on the hill and in the WH?

Here’s the deal: No Public Options or Medicare buy-in, NO MANDATE!

hey Jane,

Pollster dot com gets even weedier with it:

However, just last month the Kaiser pollsters demonstrated just how tenuous that positive reaction might be. When they informed those in favor that an individual mandate “could mean that some people would be required to buy health insurance that they find too expensive or did not want,” support plummets to just 21%.

link

Yep. I hate the mandate. I’ve called 10 Senators this morning just so I could tell them how much I hate the mandate. Words like “unconscionable”, phrases like “abuse of government power”, came to mind as I tried to dissuade these Senators from allowing their party to “commit political suicide”.

Most of the offices I called were completely flat-footed. They had no idea what I was talking about. Several asked me to repeat the question. For the record, the question was “What is the Senator doing to get the individual mandate out of the health care bill”? Most staffers stammered and said they didn’t have a statement from the Senator on that.

In one instance, I was told they were getting a lot of calls on this. In another, I was told that exactly what is in the bill appears to be completely up in the air.

The Senators I called all consider themselves (or at least portray themselves to us as) progressive. And they had no idea what I was talking about. You would think they might have thought through various scenarios for the bill and have lined up plan b (and c, d, e, and f). But you would be wrong. Unbelievable.

POWER to the PEOPLE!

Obama campaigned on NO MANDATE. I will be going to jail. Because there is no way I can get on the health care bus that I am aware of through this legislation. Self Employed, severe and untreated arthritis (came on during the last seven years) so can not work as much as I used to. Have never taken a dime from the state or Federal government for health care or anything else. Paid my taxes. Raised three kids no health insurance. Could not access Schip because I own property.

I can not get on the bus. If I am forced to buy something I can not afford I will have to go to jail.

Without the mandate…I just stay uninsured

I told you all so months ago.

When it appears in the ads of a Republican challenger who notes that the IRS will act as Aetna’s collection agency, I bet those numbers get dramatically worse.

Any Dem who votes for this won’t get our help on election day. The Tea Baggers however will see this as an easy win if they are smart.
Next Election the Blue Dogs not the Progressives will take the hit.

I’ve almost come around to thinking there’s a higher wisdom at work in all of this, as the mandate is the one issue that could unite right & left and tip the system over the edge.

The establishment Democrats have no idea what they’re about to unleash.

Americans don’t like mandates of any kind. I’m pretty sure they see this one as thspecial and particularly egregious. They already know how brutally and ruthlessly they are being treated by medical insurers and credit card issuers. They also know they’re about to be treated like the new inmate: “Stop complaining or it will hurt more. Lay back and enjoy it – and praise Obama for it.”

Do you think the Democrats care what the public thinks? Jesus Christ wake the fuck up. Democrats only care about what their corporate masters want. They want a mandate thus THERE WILL BE A MANDATE.

Until we get actual word from Thomas Friedman on what people across the country are really thinking, these polls are useless.

I’m surprised we were good with the mandates in the first place, I personally was against those

how did we justify the mandate even with the public option?

A great boon to the GOP in this, which will rile half of America when they pay more attention to it (and as EW has pointed out in several posts), is the proposed tax on full benefits health plans. This tax is aimed at so-called Cadillac plans – a pejorative phrase meant to suggest they are excessively and unaffordably luxurious when they simply have fewer holes than the typical insurance scheme. That tax will drive up costs, which employers will pass on to employees, and lower expectations about what kind of insurance is necessary and affordable.

By design, these machinations avoid addressing what kind of health care is necessary and affordable. The Senate, I expect, hopes never to debate that much thornier issue. But really, that’s what all this is about.

Insuresters, despite their ego-maniacal claims, are just lowly payments administrators. They act as if the bagman carrying the don’s money is entitled to 25% of it. They arrogated to themselves “quality control” and gatekeeper functions because as the handlers of money, it was the only way to keep a bigger chunk of it.

CREW or the ACLU will drag this mandate issue right into court the minute it goes into effect.

And, then of course when the rethugs get back into power it will be repealed anyway.

In the meantime I wish the WH would just STFU about how the bill covers 30M people. uh no. IT FORCES 30M PEOPLE TO BUY THEIR CRAPPY PRODUCT.
Big difference President Obama.

Harry Reid: “What Ms. Hamsher fails to understand is that we gifted the mandate to the insurance companies; it was the only way to get them to accept all the new regulation. She expects far too much from us if she thinks we can actually stand up for the American people and get the big, powerful, greedy, greedy executives in the insurance and financial services industries to accept even weak government regulation without giving them big gifts in exchange. I mean, come on.”

Rahm Emanuel: “Jane needs to take off her pjs and see how things are done in the real world. In the real world, you act tough in public while bending over for the executives and their lobbyists in private.”

Barack Obama is, and now it appears always was, a corporate shill. A bought man. Kill the mandate. Kill the bill.

[Mod note: Comments all in bold are the equivalent of screaming at other commenters. Please bold only certain words or phrases, not the entire comment.]

look on the bright side, we can all skip out on bail and apply for political asylum as political prisoners in some other country that is more progressive. A country that may be more progressive? North Korea comes to mind, LOL.

Where is the popular support for Joe Healthcare? Where is the greater savings for profit medicine and drugs that cost Americans more than the rest of the world or public healthcare and cheaper drugs?
What is in the best interest of the country to let poor people keep getting sick and not getting treated until they get emergency room sick thus infecting more people and raising costs.
Or treating and hopefully limiting the spread identifying the cause of any disease early, finding a bunch of sick people with food poisoning who all ate at the same fast food joint.
Or finding a person infected with drug resistant TB as soon as possible.

I was waiting for a pronouncement from David Brooks.

Bending over for one and taking it hard and dry while giving slathering oral to another, you mean?

The American way I gather?

The Senate had an opportunity to make history ,instead they just made a steaming pile of crap.
I’m glad to see people are paying attention to this issue.
Doesn’t surprise me to see a lack of public support though, the public ain’t dumb they know this bill is shit too !

If only we had listened to you everything would be so different today…

The Thomas Friedman who agreed with and pushed for the illegal invasion of Iraq and support more inflammatory sanctions on Iran. That Thomas Friedman?

Friedman has his own share of power and he has seriously abused that power. He has a lot of IRaqi blood on his hands. But he would not ever admit it.

Why would you trust anything that that man says?

Tom Friedman’s latest declaration of war
http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/2008/05/14/friedman/

Thomas Friedman and Iraq: A bad case of amnesia
http://www.wsws.org/articles/2005/oct2005/frie-o27.shtml

Tom Friedman: ‘After 9/11, I Overreacted’ (VIDEO)

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/12/02/tom-friedman-after-911-i_n_376714.html

My take is the mandate is unconstitutional the way this bill sits right now. If people are forced by FedGov to purchase insurance and the insurance companies can still deny coverage, it is taxation without representation and basically boils down to theft.

Sarcasm always starts with a kernel of truth.

Jane I think this bill is gonna pass regardless of what we want.
Then what ? What do we do when this pile of crap becomes law ?

I never thought I’d agree with the tea baggers on anything. I hate this damn bill and hope for its failure in the worst way. This corporate welfare for insurance companies represents everything I hate about our lack of representation system of government. Since when do they ever listen to polls or anything else the people want?
I will be joining “Leen@6″ in jail.
Could ThingsComeUndone explain the difference between the Blue Dogs and so-called progressives to me? I’m having trouble telling the difference.

I know it has been creeping along like a drunkard in the night for awhile but it seems there has been a real shift and great strides taken in the last year, and in particular with this bill, towards a more comprehensive control of people and our govt. by the corporatists.

During bush that same was done for the Pentagon, war profiteers, and the CIA/survelliance state subsidiaries, but Obama has left that all in place (although he my be about to reduce nuclear weapons with the Russians!!!), and he seems to have enabled megacorporate banking interests to completely infiltrate our govt. Now he seems to want to transfer a huge gift, in the sense of control of our health and our bodies and the resulting billions in profit, to Big Pharma, insurance cos, and medical tech.

(I know it is not just Obama, it is the Democrats too.)

Maybe this all makes sense to him in light of the intractable nature of these and other corporations, especially as to how it relates to climate change (that is, the corps who own and contol the US are not interested in any real effort here), but I fear that it only will further erode any sense of community and equity in our nation and lead to further and more violent depradations by these corporations and their militarist protectors.

The Republicans wage endless war to get resources and the Democrats allow transtl corporate interests become the focal power group of the empire.

They have already heard you,milord:

Subprime Credit Card Issuer Raising Interest Rate To 79.9%Dec 18, 2009 …

This credit card’s interest rate is 79.9%. The bloated APR is how First Premier Bank, a subprime credit card issuer, is skirting new …
http://www.impactlab.com/…/subprime-credit-card-issuer-raising-interest-rate-to-79-9/ – 2 hours ago

The State of the Union speech is coming up so far more troops to Afghanistan, Home owners still losing their homes, unemployment is higher, No Climate change bill, and a half loaf of Healthcare is being dressed up as a fresh baked loaf.
Cash for Clunkers might be the only Win as far as we are concerned all year.
Obama might start to be compared to Jimmy Carter in not getting things done.
Unfairly Jimmy was right on green power, peace between Israel and Egypt, increasing MPG in cars which I think helped fuel future economic booms much more than he gets credit for.

man, 2010 is gonna be one hell of an election cycle. the GOP is almost certain to whack the democrats over the head, and it’s not like they can rely on progressives to defend the damn bill because they took out everything we wanted.

I can hear the ads now: “Conservatives and liberals agree: the Democrat Party’s health reform went to far, selling out your freedom and picking your pocket for the insurance industry.”

Brooks steals everything from Friedman.

believe it or not there is a silver lining in all this

WASHINGTON — Sen. Joe Lieberman’s (I-CT) staunch refusal to support both the public option and the Medicare buy-in compromise, thereby killing both programs, has sent the progressive base into a fury, eager to toss him out of office.

The liberal advocacy group MoveOn.org on Thursday announced that it had raised more than $1 million in a campaign drive to target Joe Lieberman for “single-handedly gutting health reform,” as they accused him of doing in their first e-mail to members Tuesday.

good reading to brighten your day

Mandates are good only if you get decent healthcare in return and if they are fair in terms of your income. When I sent out my “kill this bill” email yesterday, I discovered that one of my friends who is insured through his employer hasn’t really been paying attention to the whole debate and didn’t know how crappy the bill has become and how there is this onerous mandate which buys you crap insurance. Other folks seem completely buffaloed by anti-Republican memes and can’t see that the bill has become so bad that it deserves to go back to the drawing board for a total reworking. We can insure these thirty million people without picking their pockets too. It’s called a public option and its alot like Medicare.

I never thought I’d agree with the tea baggers on anything

maybe we can get them to join in an impeachment movement base on war crimes, I wouldn’t mind that one bit

Cash for Clunkers – Getting your neighbors to make the down payment on your new car. Sounds like a win to me.

I trust him because he flies out to Iowa once a month and has coffee with people in a diner. Do you know any other political analyst with that kind of insider knowledge?

I am unable to “skip” with untreated rheumatoid arthritis. But when you have gone without health insurance for decades because you could not afford 6000.00-$8000.00 a year based on 25,000 to 30,ooo dollar a year self employed income. I know lots of folks like me. Self employed carpenters, electricians, plumbers, real estate folks, craftsman, artist, small organic farmers who have been uninsured for years. Without a mandate we continue to go without health care (I have been to a doctor either two or three times in 22 years). With a mandate that we can not afford we to go jail.

Even if the polls don’t scare the bejeezus out of Senate Dems, they still won’t get the House to buy this package without significant changes… which in turn will lose the votes of Lieberman, Nelson etc.. IOW, I think the whole thing will unravel before final passage. Dems will look like feckless idiots, the uninsured will be no better off but at least people won’t have to worry about being mandated to buy from private insurance companies.

they were supposed to strike a balance where the mandate would be acceptable given cost control. They know exactly what they are doing, suicide and corporate giveaway all in one. Further to the right we go.

What about Chuck Norris? I’m pretty sure he’s got it all figured out…

Very good news thanks :) And I bet Joe was hoping Jane’s attack on his wife would get him some sympathy.
I wonder who is lower in the polls right now the Republicans or thanks to his stand on healthcare Joe?

This is why we need to continue our course of getting rid of any people left in this country who did not go to Ivy League schools and who actually have worked for a living. The future of our great nation and its punditry depends on it.

Keith Olbermann gets on my nerves sometimes, but one thing I like about him is that he seems to be one of those rare media types who can actually figure out that although he can afford whatever is decided to be in his best interests, perhaps there are others out there who might find it a hardship. I teach anger management classes to teens who will fail probation if they don’t complete the classes. There are many families who have to put off taking the classes, which only cost $10 per week for 6 weeks, because they can’t afford them. If you have trouble finding that little money when your kid could end up in jail if you don’t, where on earth are you going to get money for insurance premiums? If you do, you’ll just have less money to pay deductibles if you have to see a doctor. And a big chunk of the money you forego food for is going to people who get paid more per day than you do in a year. But, hey, big shock that the idea of mandates doesn’t go over too well.

more;

First, we’re going to launch a huge ad campaign,” Tuesday’s e-mail read, “to make sure every last Connecticut voter knows that Senator Lieberman is blocking strong reforms. Then, we’ll push Senate leaders to strip him of his chairmanship and seniority. Finally, we’ll work to defeat him in his next election.”

“Joe Lieberman can’t be allowed to stay in the U.S. Senate,” MoveOn declared.

Less than 24 hours later, the group claimed to have raised $650,000 “to send Lieberman home for good.” Before another 24 hours were up, it had hit the $1 million mark.

What are the odds of getting to reconciliation, or is that “off the table?”

one of those rare media types who can actually figure out that although he can afford whatever is decided to be in his best interests, perhaps there are others out there who might find it a hardship.

Same as for Dylan Ratigan. He’s been very consistent on slapping around the bank bailouts and the health insurance monopolies.

Name a better or bigger win for Obama I’m coming up dry? Cash for Clunkers did put workers back to work and did reduce oil demand.
Cash for Clunkers for the GM Volt if we do the program again next year that could really have an effect on the economy if cash is given out in proportion to fuel savings.

Shouldn’t the first question be, “Would a mandate affect you?”

87% of Americans already have government or private insurance. They won’t even be affected by a mandate will they?

Where is the popular support for Joe Healthcare?

Judging from these results in the CNN/Research Opinion Corp poll on Dec 2-3 (pdf), there isn’t any support for LieberCare.

Senate bill: Favor 36%; Oppose 61%.

Public Option: Favor 53%; Oppose 46%.

That’s right. Americans do not like what the Senate’s doing at all, but they still like the idea of creating a public health insurance option.

Not only is it the right thing to do, it’s also the politically smart thing to do.

Rahm continues the charge against progressives; uses Krugmans latest posting and says:

But Emanuel pointed to a New York Times column by economist Paul Krugman and another coming from National Journal writer Ronald Brownstein pressing for passage of the Senate health bill. “What you’re seeing is the progressive backlash against the progressive backlash,” he said.

(I just posted this comment at Balloon Juice, where nobody seems to get it.)

Some time back I had a hernia operation. This was at my own expense, having cancelled our useless & hateful Blue Cross policy two years previously.

Afterwards, I added up what those two years of premiums would have cost if I’d continued to go into debt to pay them (yes, I was writing credit card checks to pay the goddamned insurance). Would you believe that even with the amount Blue Cross would have paid if my policy had still been in effect, the total cost WITH insurance amounted to nearly DOUBLE what I actually paid out of my own pocket???

This is the vaunted “health care” the Democrats would force me to buy, so please don’t do me and the 30 million others any favors. As you can see from this example, the mandate isn’t for the uninsured: it’s really a way to shovel money to the insurance companies. THAT is what needs to be understood, amidst all the finger-shaking and name-calling. The Senate bill isn’t a moral “plus.” It’s a freaking hoax.

Consequences?

Teabaggers are into tax protest too. This mandate will be the mother of all recruiting posters.

are you advocating the government forcing us to buy a product from a private monopoly?

I am surprised with that position from anyone

You’re not the only one. I’ve been wondering why the progressives didn’t focus their attention on the mandate from the getgo. Not only is it bad economics, forcing someone else to do your job, but it’s a political loser. If the progressives had focused on the mandata earlier, instead of public option (a weak reed to make the mandate more palatable), it might have gotten single payer on the table. Probably not, probably nothing would have done that. But I thought it worth a try.

Jane, this is astonishing news! When Lanny finds out, he’s gonna change his mind in a heartbeat. [nice video with him on The ED Show, btw]

our majority was great while it lasted , too bad these morons couldn’t get anything worthwhile done

2010 is gonna be hell for the D’s !

That’s rich. Sorry Rahm, credibility cannot be transferred via osmosis.

Dems will look like feckless idiots

Fixed it for ya, friend rat…….

I have no problem with the mandate coupled with a truly robust public option. Remove the public option, however, and I hate the mandate. I don’t believe in uncontrolled, unregulated, legalized monopolies- particularly when corporations essentially run the government.

I agree about Obama, but,

Cash for Clunkers did put workers back to work

Let’s break out all the windows in town, see all the jobs we can create.

Obama did win with clunkers if you think he put wokers to work and reduced oil demand, etc.

Even if true, Obama did none of that, you and I and all the other taxpayers gave our rich neighbors a free downpayment on a new car.

The poll numbers tilt toward favorable when the PO is added back. The reason the mandate issue surfaced is that the PO was taken out. The next sleeper is that neither bill has a robust option.

WTF have you been smokin’ ?

and if the ObamaRahma bill passes with a burdensome mandate enriching the private insurance cartels Obama’s numbers are headed south and fast. That’s when some Democrat will rise to the surface to begin the process of challenging Obama in the primaries.

We never had a majority, Progressives are vastly outnumbered by the corporate owned Republi-Dem party.

you guys have to watch this sock puppet add from moveon, it’s REALLY good

I was trying to figure out how come the Democrats could be a part of the war party. I have a new theory. It is for the same reason that they can rationalize forcing this crappy HCR on us. They think that we will be sure to like it later on once we see how great it is. It is sheer arrogance and hubris. This is the same drive that puffs up Presidents to allow them to say, “We are bringing security to the free world.” as they destroy countries they occupy with their armies. We are ignored while they roll their healthcare tanks and drop their healthcare bombs and send us the bill.

What I find shocking is the 38% in favor. I didn’t know the insurance industry had that many employees.

Thanks. They might not have a will but it looks like Dems are prearranging their funeral.

I brought it up as a question of strategy. Going for the public option, while accepting the fundamental concept of a mandate, was leaving open exactly what happened: a mandate but no PO. If the mandate had gotten attacked first, when there was genuine lack of knowledge about the PO, then single payer, with small probability, might have gotten on the table, or, more likely, the PO would have been stronger to entice support for mandate.

The “Good Hands People”…giving us the middle finger of both of the “Good Hands”…

PR person from moveon was on WJ this morning. I didn’t watch all of it, but in the part I did watch no caller laid a glove on her.

remember even before we won the majorities I was saying I thought it would be wise for corporations to start contributing to democrats because it looked like they’d be voted in thanx to bush

then I said the democrats WILL corrupt themselves because power corrupts (power corrupts is a phrase I invented myself I tell ya)

they corrupted themselves far faster then I thought they might but I knew obama corrupted himself the day he had democrats sign off on telecom immuninty

we’re doomed

If they get to him before his calendar gets blocked, maybe they can get Rick Warren to officiate.

How do they intend to enforce this “mandate” edict on the growing horde of homeless foreclosed upon unemployed people living in “Obamavilles”? If societies are judged by the way that they treat the least among them, the US is a total failure. I have single payer health care. It is easy to obtain. All that you need to do is join the military, go to war and get your ass shot off! If you survive you too can have single payer healthcare. It often comes with prosthetic devices, colostomy bags and wheelchairs. Many are going this way.

did you see the add?

great stuff, I think that’s the best anti lieberman add I’ve ever seen

A mandate without a extremely strong public basically means the democrats are conceding 2010 and 2012.

How many democratic/independent households earning 40 to 60k a yr are gonna still vote democrat when they have to spend 10 to 17% of their salary on healthcare?

Would they vote for the first republican that says the magic words repeal, to save their house and car?

The mandate is bad policy, but without a public option it’s absolutely terrible politics and the failure of the Democrats to realize this is one of the biggest political failures in history. Hardship exemption or not, the Republicans will use the mandate in ads to destroy Democrats from coast to coast and rescue their party from irrelevance.

I had health care. But in 2008 my single status under 40 with no health issues premium jumped from about $350 a month pretax, to over $700. I flipped them the bird and declined coverage, so I guess I am one of those who the pols are all bitching about. But $700 a month!? It was just freaking ridiculous. I could have afforded it, but I take exception to being fucked in the ass.

Yes, the subject of the WJ segment was about the ad.

They were corrupt long before. The traditional Dem populism was already on life-support before Clinton pulled the plug in ’92.

He’ll make time.

No Public Option means:
Kill The Bill Baby Kill The Bill!@!#@

So, are you fer or agin it? :-)

I brought it up as a question of strategy. Going for the public option, while accepting the fundamental concept of a mandate, was leaving open exactly what happened: a mandate but no PO. If the mandate had gotten attacked first, when there was genuine lack of knowledge about the PO, then single payer, with small probability, might have gotten on the table, or, more likely, the PO would have been stronger to entice support for mandate.

Ah, I see what you mean. Speaking for myself, I never felt that single payer was viable. Representatives on the Hill never even allowed the phrase “single payer” to be spoken in committee meetings. I’m okay holding off on single payer. I felt the public option was the way to go from the outset because what I think Americans need to learn is that government can provide people with programs that work. I think the public option would have proved that. Progressives are in a proof-of-concept era and the public option could have been an excellent prototype. What we have now will simply reinforce the notion that government can’t do anything right. Underscoring that myth will kill more people in the end than killing the HCR legislation, as it stands, will.

Oh Please alan1! Your question is a bit politically and economically overly simplistic.

When HC premiums go ape-shit as the result of a government mandate that 87% with “coverage” quickly becomes 75% then 60% etc.

The real question is with a mandate how long before the health insurance robber barrons raise rates and then use the IRS as their means of extortion and coersion to get them paid?

I just wish the world was as evenhanded and fair as you think it is.

No public options or Medicare buy-in then NO MANDATES!

Even if true, Obama did none of that, you and I and all the other taxpayers gave our rich neighbors a free downpayment on a new car.

Poor folks were much more likely to own a Clunker so it helps them more. Also the more we reduce oil demand the more money our consumer based economy has to spend hopefully on American based products.
A big push next year for the GM Volt at 230 mpg if we could get a million of these cars sold in one year will affect oil prices, unless OPEC cuts production but given Dubai’s situation I don’t think OPEC can afford to cut oil production.
The benefits less cash for Ossama and the Taliban from oil rich Arab nations, less cash Iran has for its nuclear program plus I do not think America has ever had an economic boom that has not started without low oil prices.

http://money.cnn.com/2009/08/11/autos/volt_mpg/index.htm

Having lived through, watched politics and voted in the eighties my feeling is that history has been slightly re-written by the winners of Reagan land. Carter put through far more consumer protection legislation than the 20 years before and after. Some things, like mandated headlight sizes, might have been a bit over the top in retrospect but the point is he really did bring in people that conformed to his worldview and acted accordingly. He didn’t constantly complain that he could not do things without permission from large corporations. Was he the best thing for business? Absolutely not but we’ve had plenty of gutless politicians living on the corporate lobbyist dole since to make up for the omission in spades.

Health protections, the environment and general compassion were his strengths. IMHO his biggest mistake was bring everything to a halt during the Iranian hostage crisis. Which of course was secretly extended via behind the scenes Republican dirty tricks.

Of course there were slightly more honest politicians on both sides than there are today. Today the Senate and the Congress is pretty much a millionaires club.

What if they held a funeral and no one attended?

If you think PO might have been doable, you don’t start the bargaining there. You start with more than you think you can get. At least that’s the way I thought bargaining worked.

AND THE KILLIN’ GOEZ ON AND ON AND…

Citizen Hamsher and the Firepup Freedom Fighters:

Thanks for all yer work on healthcare Sister Hamsher, but it is time ta take the fight to the next level and organize around all those Democrats in the House and Senate who would vote to kill the bill. Then join with organized labor behind efforts to pass EFCA and a jobs bill immediately in the new year. At the same time Act Blue and the progressive bloggosphere must organize behind those progressives who are gunna be targeted by the White House and prepare primary fights for targeted Blue Dog corporatists.

ObamaRahma is settin’ up a 1994 replay to take down the Democratic majorities in order to triangulate the corporate fascists back into power. Killin’ the healthcare bill is the best thing that can happen to the anti-corporatist majority in the Democratic Party and if Obama ends up with a leaner but decidedly more progressive congress with new leadership in the Senate he will be boxed in for 2012. 2010 must be devoted to organizing progressives in the Democratic Party to isolate Obama and get a few corporatist heads on stakes startin’ with Rahm the Tiny Dancer and Bernanke. By 2012 there will be a number of options to challenge Obama includin’ Feingold and Howard Dean.

I think that Obama is smart enough to see that if he can’t co-opt progressives to get “third-way” corporatist policies institutionalized, he will hafta move to the left or be unelectable by 2012. It’s time to organize from the grass roots and create a congressional progressive force that can survive without Obama at the polls.

KEEP THE FAITH AND PASS THE AMMUNITION, WE MUST FIGHT THE BATTLES IF WE’RE GUNNA WIN THE WAR!!

Reaganistas thought that what Carter did was peanuts.

I will admit given Obama’s record so far I doubt he could organize a million car Volt sale for GM. However name another real win that Obama can claim?
This is the best I can come up with you name a better win cause no matter how small I think Cash for Clunkers is it.

Rahma & Obama must think they can spend themselves into victory, with corporate-only money. They had that, and still needed the base in 2008. Which suggests that even with more corporate money but fewer votes from their base, and with teabugger frenzy that will peak at election time, you’re right. Rahma’s strategy will once again crash and burn.

I’m sure he’s telling anyone who will listen, in private, that 2010 doesn’t matter. There’s nothing “progressive” he wants to do with majorities in both houses of Congress anyway. He wants the White House and the Goopers got nothing to put on the table in 2012. So this is all about the money.

I’m sure it is, for Rahma & Obama. Everyone else? They’ve got lives to live, and the Democrat leadership is pissing on them and asking to be thanked for it. Not the way to build a party or a future for America. Rahm’s strategy is another example of the way corporations are strip mining America as if it were another Appalachian mountain top.

put the public option back and then masybe…But the current version… no way Jose!!

great post!

I know there are people who can afford and do not get on the bus. But there are millions of self employed hard working people out there, who pay their state and federal taxes and can not afford to get on the bus based on the cost via private insurance companies. Millions who then go without because of affordability issues.

These are not folks who take advantage of the system. These are folks who are paying their own ways and paying their fair share in taxes. Are completely unable to get on the health care bus and go without seeing doctors etc often until they end up costing the system billions because they have had chronic issues that go untreated.

Ass backwards…simply ass backwards

Later

Blue Texan’s regularly scheduled post is ready: “Are Progressives Going the Way of Bush Republicans?”

That’s a good point, but I saw early on that it wasn’t going to be allowed to even be mentioned. Bernie Sanders may have been off muttering to himself in corner, but it was pretty obvious single payer advocates were marginalized from the git go. I simply accepted that reality. Hell, I had doubts about the PO going anywhere. Anyway, I don’t think it really would have made any difference in the end. We’d be in this exact position today regardless.

Goes to show how full of himself Rahm is… he thought he could merrily get away with booting the public option and no one would notice…

Of course, Obama had been helping to lay the groundwork for their position for a while…

Oooops…. backfired on ya Emanuel!

Dems actually expected a health care reform bill that would deliver real “change” for average Americans as Obama had campaigned on…

Not a complete, bend over, sell out to the medical industrial comples that Emanuel has delivered.

It is really appalling that he thought he could easily get away with this… all to keep the MIC mega-dollars flowing to Dems rather than Repubs to “ensure” Dem victories for Emanuel in 2010.

How’s that working out for you you despicable pile of steaming shit?

Some things, like mandated headlight sizes, might have been a bit over the top in retrospect

The cash savings of standardizing most car parts would be huge if most car parts were standardized not just headlights.
The body of the cars of course must be different to sell people on different makes.
But overall I agree with you.

If this bill passes without ‘ball busting’ price controls, it will accomplish two disastrous wins. One for the Industry, and one for the Neoliberal Agenda of this administration.

If Axelrod, Rahm, and Obama get that W, their sense of hubris will be unleashed on a whole slew of entitlements while flying the banner of Deficit Reductions. They will put, all public properties and supportive departments, up for a Fire Sale – privatize Parks, Public Education and whatever else that works for the Common good, for pennies on the dollar.

If I am right, the passage of a HC bill would be like an hors d’oevre awaiting the main course.

Poor folks were much more likely to own a Clunker so it helps them more.

I don’t really think so. A poor person who drives a clunker does so out of necessity. My son doesn’t make enough to afford a car payment, so he can’t afford to trade in he clunker. Also, most of the cars traded in were viable low cost transpertation, perfect for the poor. But now 750,000 of them will be destroyed. I’m sure the poor are real happy about that.

I agree in theory about the oil (didn’t mean to hijack the thread with OT)

Thats the way I learned it also!!

Let’s not forget part of Obama’s campaign was NO MANDATES. Supposedly the difference between Hillary and his plans for health care reform

I just called my two Democratic senators and made it clear that if the Senate bill passes as written, individual mandates, not cost containment, caps on money expended for care they won’t have my vote. Senator Murray’s office tried to tell me that since our business was so tiny that it wouldn’t effect us. I told her that health care had gotten so expensive that we were going to have to drop it. Senator Cantwell’s office just noted my complaint.

Citizen fuckno:

Kill the bill and Obama is isolated goin’ into 2010. This is NAFTA and the tax hikes…it’s time for liberals to realize that they must vote against whatever is gunna make the people suffer more. The truth makes for good politics.

Well said this Meme is what we need to push onto the press. Obama went Right and lost public support he has given us more war and more there by more debt. No healthcare, more unemployment and people are losing their homes.
Who cares if you save the banks we are a consumer economy if consumers don’t spend the banks will fail again.

Someone raised the issue of the “unconstitutional” 60 vote thing, well it used to be two-thirds until “dumos” did not like it back twentysome years ago I think and changed it. Now they 60 is too much too bear — geez !!. Our system is set up to balance out the House with the Senate — simple majority to super majority so asinine bills like HCR get scrutinized more and the party in power cannot ram s**t like this down our throats !!

groan………..

obama believes a health care bill is the key to his re-election, it may or may not be but if we can kill this bill then obama is going to have to get a real bill through

Cash for clunkers transferred taxpayer dollars into dealerships and automobile manufacturers so that they did not have to drop prices on cars that weren’t moving. I’ve forgotten the price per car that each transaction actually cost but it was certainly thousands more than the actual money that the tax funded purchasers saw. Not as bad a deal as the billions that were given to banks to supposedly help underwater homeowners but expensive non-the-less. Spending taxpayer money to prop up corporate bottom lines is rarely good for the taxpayer.

The amount of energy necessary to build a new car was probably significant against the minor improvement in gas mileage. If cash for clunkers was the big win then there were no wins in my opinion.

Unless the House progressives are completely spineless (I don’t rule that out) and agree to the Obama/Lieberman Senate package I don’t foresee any possibility of the House and Senate reaching a viable compromise. HCR will go down in flames but with the Dems we currently have in office it would have been reform in name only anyway.

Kill the bill and Obama doesn’t even have a half loaf as an accomplishment for his first year. Heck I can’t even sell Cash for Clunkers as a small win on a blog that is generally pro worker pro green.
Obama gots nothing then with broad appeal to voters to show as a win.
I am open to suggestions on any win to add to Obama’s tally.

P.S. AND we must organize an anti-war movement in the Democratic Party that will put the ghost of LBJ into Obama’s bedroom by next Christmas.

I think it should include a ghost beagle lifting ghost LBJ by his ears.

Healthcare ending the war the economy are the big issues Obama went Right on all these issues and now has nothing for the State of the Union unless he changes direction.
Unlike a GOPer a terror attack won’t help him Shock Doctrine us more the GOP would sieze that as proof of Obama’s failure in military policy.
So can Obama be the leader Bush never was and change direction when things are not working? He does not have much time.

Nothing will sufficiently change until we tear down the massive campaign finance barriers which make it near impossible to become an office holder without also being wholly owned by the rich and their class agenda.

The Dems parleyed themselves into the majority but they don’t have the cohesion to get the HCR passed that the American People want And need desperately to survive. It is unconscionable to let 47 Thousand people die and for what Profit!! Totally immoral of our leaders.

If they get the victory I wouldn’t be surprised if they begin talking about the privatization of Social Security. As it could only have been a Republican that “opened” China it could only be a Democrat that can destroy social security.

Our elected representatives, senators and congressional, are completely off the reservation. They don’t write the bills, they have staffers and lobbyists do it for them. They don’t read the bills, no one does. They won’t even listen to their clerks read it. They don’t campaign, they have gerrymandered their districts to make themselves unassailable. They don’t even pretend to be ethical – they have lawyers on their (our) payrolls to advise them on ethics. So, what do they do?

Our representatives represent corporate interests. Only corporate interests. They eat, sleep and live for big corporations and the money and power they can get from them. And the biggest ones are Insurance Companies and Wall Street. That’s what’s getting the attention. That’s what’s getting the money. And we’re who’s getting the shaft.

Mandate. Uh uh. I won’t do it. CIVIL DISOBEDIENCE is the only PUBLIC OPTION left to us.
If no one is running against your representative in the primary, YOU run against them. We’ve got to take back our government.

“Our campaign,” Obama announced in Grant Park, “was not hatched in the halls of Washington.”

That statement was flatly false. “One evening in February 2005, in a four-hour meeting stoked by pepperoni pizza and great ambition,” the Chicago Tribune reported in the spring of 2007, “Senator Barack Obama and his senior advisors crafted a strategy to fit the Obama ‘brand.’” The meeting took place just weeks after Obama had been sworn into the upper representative chamber of the United States government. According to Tribune Washington Bureau reporters Mike Dorning and Christi Parsons, in an article titled “Carefully Crafting the Obama Brand:”

“The charismatic celebrity-politician had rocketed from the Illinois state legislature to the U.S. Senate, stirring national interest. The challenge was to maintain altitude despite the limited tools available to a freshman senator whose party was in a minority.”

“Yet even in those early days, Obama and his advisors were thinking ahead. Some called it the ‘2010-2012-2016′ plan: a potential bid for governor or re-election to the Senate in 2010, followed by a bid for the White House as soon as 2012, not 2016. The way to get there, they decided, was by carefully building a record that matched the brand identity: Obama as a unifier and consensus builder, and almost postpolitical leader.”

“The staffers in that after-hours session, convened by Obama’s Senate staff and including Chicago political advisor David Axlerod, planned a low-profile strategy that would emphasize workhorse results over headlines. Obama would invest in the long-term profile by not seeming too eager for the bright lights.” [22]

This Tribune story was disturbing on numerous levels. It suggests a degree of cynicism, manipulation, and ambition that does not fit very well with the progressive and hopeful likeness that the Obama campaign has projected. It calls to mind a tension between virtuous public claims and selfish goals behind the scenes. The politician being sold would make sure to seem non-ambitious – “not seeming too eager for the bright lights” and privileging hard work over “headlines” – and respectful toward fellow members of the political class (“establishing good relationships with my colleagues.” But, by Dorning and Parsons’ account, Obama and his team were actually and quite eagerly all about “the bright lights” and “the headlines” in a “long-term” sense. They were already scheming for the presidency less than a month into his Senate seat. The image of Obama as a humble and hardworking rookie who got along with his colleagues across partisan lines part of their marketing strategy on the path to higher – the highest – office………”

http://www.zmag.org/znet/viewArticle/23390

Not only don’t they have the cohesion, most of them don’t have the desire.

nice parallel there! Fully agree.

Automobile production is way too complex to standardize to the degree you suggest. And the engineering differences across the brands would essentially prevent it. There are many ways to reduce cost and as a progressive I suggest looking at standardizing (lower) CEO and upper management compensation packages for a start.

Cash for clunkers was a half-hearted success. Where Obama failed is not forcing bailed out auto industry to keep jobs here. As soon as Chrysler received bail out, they closed two plants in St. Louis and shipped production (approx. 4500+ jobs direct, more indirect) to Canada and Mexico. I knew then he was full of shit.

Retired after 34 years in the auto manufacturing business.

In one instance, I was told they [Senators] were getting a lot of calls on this. In another, I was told that exactly what is in the bill appears to be completely up in the air. - phred

Thanks so much for your informed pressure on these scofflaw Senators, phred.

If not knowing what is in the pending Reid manager’s amendment is a reason or excuse for these Senators to have no public position on the legislation, then why is that same lack of knowledge sufficient for them to vote to immediately end debate and proceed to final passage of the measure, without amendment, starting this weekend?

As I just fumed in a dday thread about a “blogger conference call” (to which the principled FDL bloggers, of course, were not invited) conducted by White House political operatives yesterday:

“And the main thing I [Axelrod] would say to him [Ben Nelson] and others members of the Senate is that after a long, long, long and thorough debate, let us have a vote.

Stop. right. there. Mr. Axelrod.

Bernie Sanders, are you actually crediting this swill?!

In about three weeks of on-again, off-again floor “debate” on the health care reform measure in the Senate, hundreds of amendments have been filed by Senators from both Parties (acting on their first opportunity to affect this legislation), about 25 have been allowed to be called up for debate, about 21 have received a vote (all requiring a supermajority of 60 for passage, by unanimous consent), including meaningless “Sense of the Senate” measures, and about two actual, meaningful amendments have passed. [In the House, one amendment out of hundreds offered (plus a pro forma Republican substitute and motion to recommit) was allowed (per Party dictate) to be brought to the floor, and that one amendment (Stupak/Pitts) is the only change to the House legislation the membership-at-large - aka our "Representatives" - was allowed to make, or even attempt to make.]

David Axelrod and Harry Reid and Max Baucus want to ensure that you don’t pay any attention to all of that. Instead they want to redefine and bless the secret, off-the-record, unaccountable months of Democratic Party (not Congressional) dealmaking that created the guts of this bill, which was only then presented for mark-up, and mostly Party-line votes, in the actual Finance Committee. [Chris Dodd apparently wrote the (close-to-final version of the) HELP Committee bill behind closed doors with the White House over a period of about two weeks before presenting it for mark-up in his committee. After mark-up in HELP, some of the few meaningful committee-adopted Republican amendments were stripped from the bill in secret.]

And, of course, Reid merged the bills in secret for the first base bill to which all the floor amendments were filed.

Now, however, to add insult to democratic process injury, Jim Manley, Reid’s spokesman, as quoted today by dday, is announcing that Harry Reid is going to unveil his secret final bill and immediately file to end debate and force a vote on whatever it happens to contain, without possibility of amendment:

We would then have a vote on final passage on the [war-funding] bill at 7 am on Saturday morning. Following passage of the DoD bill, Senator Reid would file closure on the [still-secret, on Friday] manager’s amendment, substitute amendment and the underlying bill on health care. This would set up the first cloture vote on the manager’s amendment on Monday morning at 1 am. [Etc.]

I cannot put into words the contempt in which I hold United States Senators who countenance such an approach to “legislating” in the name of Party and power, duty and responsibility to nation and institution be damned.

Given the disgraceful present state of this legislation as far as we have been permitted to see it, that any Senator is hesitating about putting A STOP to this complete travesty of a process and powerplay by the Democratic Party as dictated from the White House appalls me.

People in Vermont, at least, understand fair legislative process, Bernie. You can explain this by comparing it to half or more of the participants in an annual Town Meeting being gagged and prevented from making motions to amend, or even being permitted to know what the meeting is being asked to vote on. Please step up, and break this sick stranglehold on our representative democracy before it’s too late.

Because those who only understand the brute force of corrupt Chicago Machine Politics, like Roland Burris (speaking Thursday), aren’t going to do it for you:

The PRESIDING OFFICER (Mr. Udall of New Mexico). The Senator from Illinois is recognized.

Mr. BURRIS. Mr. President, I also would like to make a few comments on the issue that is pending before this body and which has been debated and debated and debated, discussed and discussed and discussed. It is time to bring it to a meaningful and final conclusion.

As I address this Chamber today, we stand on the cusp of history. For many years, we have known that the American health care system is badly broken. Now, after nearly a century of debate, after 100 years of delay and false starts, this body is on the verge of laying the issue of health reform to a rest.

This bill represents the culmination of decades of hard work. Its course has been shaped by 11 Presidents and countless Members of the House and Senate. It has taken a long and winding path to reach this point. This legislation is a product of compromise and consensus, of give and take on both sides. It is not perfect; by no means is it perfect. But here we stand.

We have come further than any Congress in history on this issue. We have worked hard to craft a measure that can accomplish the goals of reform without alienating those whose support we need to pass this bill. Without a commitment to certain ideals, this bill would be empty and ineffective. But without a willingness to work together and achieve compromise, this bill can never become a political reality.

As responsible legislators, this is the fine line we must always walk. It is never easy. I applaud my colleagues for the fine work they have done at every step along the way. Still, not everyone is satisfied, so the work goes on. It is the genius of our Founding Fathers and the rules of this body that allow one Senator to keep debate alive so we can work, debate, write, rewrite legislation together. One Senator can do that under the rules of this body.

Some have suggested that we kill this legislation and start over. They suggest that we stop and come up with something new. They say without perfection we should give up on reform altogether.

I have spoken on the Senate floor, Mr. President. You know what my position has been. But giving up on this issue is not an option. So as my colleagues and I continue to move forward from here, I would like to make one thing very clear. After 100 years of debate, we have come too far and worked too hard to turn back now. Too many Americans are counting on us to make a decision on their behalf. They need it now. They don’t need it tomorrow or next week or next month or next year or never–they need it now. Killing the bill would ignore those who look to us for help in their time of crisis. We cannot abandon them at this time. Leaving tens of millions of people without any health coverage at all is also unacceptable.

To all those who believe we should kill this bill I would say this: I understand their frustration, the impulse to say enough is enough. But our vote in this body on this bill is not the end of a path for this sweeping legislation, only a door to the next step of conference.

I have not yet seen the details of the legislation. I have not yet seen the CBO score. I have not yet seen the provisions that will earn my vote; namely, cost containment, competition, and accountability. It is only through keeping this legislation alive that we can continue our work to make this a more perfect document. I say we must continue to work on this document we have before us. We cannot kill this legislation and start over. We must keep working through this legislation, keeping it alive so we can continue–continue–to make this document what we want it to be. That is what we must do.

I yield the floor.

http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getpage.cgi?dbname=2009_record&page=S13362&position=all

“Keeping this legislation alive” to improve it means keeping it in the Senate where Senators have the opportunity – which they lose once a bill is in conference – to amend with debate and/or recommit the legislation, as Roland Burris well knows but hopes we don’t. Conference is where Party power is wielded by a select few in secret, and the final product is presented for a vote without the possibility of amendment. Roland Burris is here pledging to further cede his role as a Constitutional representative of the people to unaccountable Party actors in the White House.

If Bernie Sanders has a conscience, he should listen to it, because I guarantee that this nation will be better for it if he does, despite the personal insults and name-calling that his unprincipled, cowardly and cowering colleagues will doubtless hurl in his direction, as they have in Howard Dean’s.

true dat…we be fucked.. but we will make more progressives at the ballot box!

But, thanks to the Senate bill you will still pay a penalty! That’s what I call insuring 31 million more Americans … unless they don’t.

Cash for clunkers…sounds like a damn good plan to get rid of these “clunker” politicos.

Turns out, it was always a flat world for Thomas, he just didn’t realize it for swimming so deep in his wife’s fortune, somewhere in Dubai.

That was a joke . . .

Thanks, powwow !

The politics of Democratic Party and power in service to the powerful inter-partisans. Since this is not democracy, wtf have we got?

I am BACK..What is it going to take – “How much money do THEY WANT from the working people of America”, if I may quote my own dead self – Hey Blue Texan – Why are you and so many here calling Joe Lie BURR man, my old Enemy in teh senate {notice the small caps}a MODERATE?
I am not just ROLLING OVER down here people!!! RUSS and BERNIE…TOM H. (YOU ARE IN my SEAT MOFO!!!)…remember ME?
…F I L I B U S T E R the phony bill!
Everyone here: Make them filibuster…especially Tom Harkin, damnit!

THANK YOU, JANE H.!

bingo

Where Obama failed is not forcing bailed out auto industry to keep jobs here. As soon as Chrysler received bail out, they closed two plants in St. Louis and shipped production (approx. 4500+ jobs direct, more indirect) to Canada and Mexico. I knew then he was full of shit.

Very good point bailout money to outsource American jobs is not a selling point. Unless it were bank jobs.

Bingo again…thanks!

I was just having some fun. Thanks for the links. ;-)

Ain’t that the truth.

How can progressives support a bill that requires the addition of another “victimless” crime to the law just to make the bill work?

A mandate with a fine for refusal to pay is just another addition to the existing long list of victimless crimes. And if people who are fined, don’t pay the fine, what happens next? Do they go to jail?

This is not at all like liability insurance that requires one to purchase insurance to pay for harm to another person. This insurance is to prevent harm to oneself. This is no different than a drug possession law.

I can’t believe progressives would allow this. The public will be outraged when they find that their fellow citizens are going to be fined because their fellow citizens can’t afford to buy insurance. And if any of them ever have to go to jail over non-payment, the democrats who allowed this will be seen as the biggest dunces of all time in the best case and despicable in the worst case.

My sentiments exactly…if I put on my tin-foil hat, I start believing the fantasies so many of us had under Bush2…the detention camps etc…God help us!

Jane: Thanks for putting dispicable, evil, pandering, Lanny Davis in his rightful place – the dumpster behind the Safeway! WE PROGRESSIVES LOVE YOU!!

I will send money to candidates who will be running those adds. republican, democrat or independant

In his commentary Wednesday night, Keith Olbermann put forth that he’d rather be fined and be put in jail than obey the President’s orders to buy health insurance from the private extortionist cartel, defiantly stating:

“I call on all those whose conscience urges them to fight, to use the only weapon that will be left to us if this bill becomes law. We must not buy federally mandated insurance if this cheesy counterfeit of reform is all we can buy.”

“No single payer? No sale.
No public option? No sale.
No Medicare buy-in? No sale.”

“I am one of the self-insured, albeit by choice. And I hereby pledge that I will not buy this perversion of health care reform. Pass this at your peril, Senators, and sign it at yours, Mr. President.”

“I will not buy this insurance.
Brand me a lawbreaker if you choose.
Fine me if you will.
Jail me if you must.”

Perhaps more than any of his previous “special comments” , none more than this most recent defined what we as a people must galvanize into, the most effective course of national movement to take back our birthright from the corporate mobsters and their toadies in government who have kidnapped our nation with ever more and higher demands of ransom.

There aren’t enough prisons in this country to house millions of conservatives, liberals, moderates and teabaggers who refuse to become slaves to the health insurance mob and its government.

There’s more in my article for OpedNews: http://www.opednews.com/articles/Who-Will-Join-Olbermann-In-by-Robert-Arend-091217-440.html

has anyone seen this crazy interview?

Ratigan and Wasserman-Schultz – He just yarfs at her and she just keeps reciting the Party Line… neither one listens to the other so it’s like a disjointed cacophony of beat poetry… Ratigan going into high warble, and Schultz, bobble heading and rolling her eyes.

I think it’s the worst interview in history, and Art, at the same time. It really says everything about what’s going on now.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/31510813/ns/msnbc_tv-morning_meeting#34478515

Ed Schultz is on fire! The Ed Show is on right now. Tune in!!

He made a point of declaring he was “looking for a job before I got this one.” That a few minutes after he took a dig at Chris Matthews as being a friend of Axlerod. Now he’s got Markos on to debate Matthews snipe at blogers as back-seater whiners.

All those teapartiers got their taxes CUT and you still think it matters whether they are directly affected? The difference is that even non-crazy people have either lost their insurance or worry about losing it (with their job or because their employer drops coverage) and that the whole concept of mandates is a tricky one in American culture. Mandates to benefit the insurance companies that are loathed? Poisonous for the insured who hate their insurance companies and the insured who hate the govt interference and those who hate propping up private for profits.

We need to support the Ed Shows so that they make enough money that they won’t be shut down for standing up. Not to say they can’t be shut down anyway, but it makes the calculation a bit harder for the corporations. I have to wonder if we won’t see some corporate infighting that could help us as times get tough. There have to be businesses out there that resent how much power Wall St and the insurance cartel have. When there’s plenty of money to go around, maybe it’s not that noticeable or bad enough to worry about. But when they are siphoning off what consumers and the govt would otherwise be able to pour into their coffers and deficit hawks and leave consumers with no assets, wages or credit to buy products other than mandated insurance and interest on their credit cards…

Another thing that seems short-sighted about the WH attack on progressives is that MSNBC is pretty much all they have. Maybe the MSM isn’t as hostile as Fox, but it’s not like there are a lot of shows out there that are great showcases for Dems. Chris Matthews is still on board, until his ratings plummet from his stupidity and I think they still have the idea that all they need are the insiders. The rubes will either come along or not matter.