She is a royal liar of epic proportions of course.

Yeah, I noticed that little sound bite as well. I’m glad I managed to get through that much of “Hardball”, because I can rarely stomach more than a half-hour of Chris Matthews. Landrieu was arrogant, contemptuous, and haughty. “You never had that choice to begin with” lets you know that the Senate was ALWAYS going to run with the Finance Committee bill. No public option. Individual mandates. No universal coverage. Taxes on health benefits (although that’ll probably be the one – and only – concession to come out in conference, since I believe the Obama administration fears labor, at least).

It’s interesting now to think back on Reid’s move to keep the public option in. You’ve speculated he did it so Obama (or another Senator) would take the fall for stripping it out. He obviously knew it was never going through regular order, not with people like Landrieu, Lincoln and Lieberman and ZERO support from the White House. In retrospect, Reid’s comments about Lieberman being “the least of Harry Reid’s problems” is an interesting admission: Reid was ALWAYS counting on Lieberman to take the fall for the death of the public option.

Of course, Reid is a creature of the Senate. He likes to play his little games inside the caucus, but he clearly misjudged public opinion. He really thought he could water down the bill, Democrats would accept it as “the best we can get”, and any blowback on this deal would take out Lieberman. He’d get credit for passing a bill – any bill – and a non-Democrat could suffer the electoral consequences. I don’t think he has any concept how royally pissed-off the American people are. Our “leaders” are complete hacks.

That’s what I’m sayin’! Only I don’t call it smoke and mirrors, I call it jacking public opinion with carefully scripted myths.

For those who aren’t hip to the power of myths: to jack electorates to hell and stick them with the bill both ways; Rachel Maddow had two segments on this last night.

Health reform opponents resort to digital dirty tricks

GOP unrestrained in health reform opposition

The first features the work of propagandist Rick Berman and other astroturfers.

The second segment features blatant use of weaponized mythology. First is a “prayer-cast” to stop health care reform. And then we see that C Street cult member Sam Brownback is listed just ahead of Lou Engle, who is shown preaching the apocalypse and then slipping in the politics. It’s an explicit use of the most powerful beliefs of a voting bloc to jack them to hell.

From c. 4:40-5:10 in the “GOP unrestrained” segment, you can see Engle training his audience to become martyrs:

“God, mark me now! Mark me! As a man and woman of the cross of Jesus Christ! Say ‘mark me!’”

As one with a BA in psychology, I recognize those techniques. They’re based on studies that show getting someone to make a statement, even in favor of something they actually oppose, can change attitudes and thus behavior. With this propaganda, they’re making attacks, even suicidal ones, far more likely.

This is why I say, jacking public opinion with carefully scripted myths is the state of the art in manufacturing consent.

BTW, Obama is using it too. His West Point and Nobel speeches were chock full of myths designed to jack us into ever more war. “Lieberman did it” is another case in point.

Reid must know his political career is over. Surely he’s angling for the kind of cushy lobbyist life his former colleague Tom Daschle is enjoying. And who will be a better health care lobbyist than the very man who created the new regime?

From the section of the OFA website titled The Obama Plan, this language is still there (how long it remains is unclear, of course) describing one aspect of the Obama Plan:

Offers a public health insurance option to provide the uninsured and those who can’t find affordable coverage with a real choice.

Don’t tell me he didn’t campaign on this, Mary. Lying does not become you.

Landrieu is a horrible person.

Read this great rebuttal to Chuck Norris’s article on health care reform.

http://progressnotcongress.org/?p=3412

Sorry for the OT.

Ralph Nader is going to be on WMNF from 1:05 to 2:00. I think it’s live but don’t quote me on that. Click on the Listen Live link in the upper right hand corner. Not a Nader fan but want to hear what he has to say about HCR.

Now back to your regular programming.

Sorry, Jane.

Barack W. Obama. Maybe he’ll run as a Republican next time.

Time for a new government.

She’s a prick, in my view.

In the bill that the Governor is now saying he’s not for, there is a national, non-profit option

our 18 y.o. responded “You Lie!”

the only reason that mary landrieu has not been under more scrutiny is that joe lieberman has sucked all the air out of the room. she has never been anything in this debate but a lackey for the insurance companies, and she is way out of her league with howard dean.

Yup. He;s toast and he knows it. It’s just a question of what to do next. lunch time!

It’s the “I never promised you a rose garden” excuse.

I beg your pardon,
I never promised you a rose garden.
Along with the sunshine,
There’s gotta be a little rain sometimes.
When you take, you gotta give, so live and let live,
Or let go.
I beg your pardon,
I never promised you a rose garden.

-Lynn Rene Anderson

Thank you, Mary. That’s the fighting spirit! That’s leadership!

I think the “urban dictionary”nails it.:

“KABUKI
Japanese theatre where only men were allowed to act, even female roles, until ban was recently lifted. Invented in order to allow peasants a theatre of their own, as going to nobles’ theatre would result in either having their eyes gouged out or their ears ripped off. Performed in poses rather than fluid action. Often very depressing.”
__________________________

there is a national, non-profit option that gives the same choices that members of Congress and federal employees have. If that’s not enough, I don’t know what is.

No it’s not enough. We want the salaries that Congress has and the subsidies to premiums that Congress has. And, oh yes, the federal government negotiating with insurance companies for all of us to have lower premiums.

Interesting the way that she tosses out red herrings that conflate two issues.

No he did not campaign for public option, he did not campaign on Medicare for all, he most certainly did not.

He did campaign for a public option; he never called it Medicare for all, which folks would have taken to be single payer. And he campaigned against mandates.

Kill the bill. its my mantra and my whole political focus. its my raison d’etre

except they DID promise (a small) rose garden. we have it in writing and on talking pictures in the intertube machine

Mary Landrieu, poster child for why Dems should get crushed in the mid-terms.

Eyes real wide lots of blinking and she has to interrupt Howard Dean and talk over him repeatedly I think she is lying and desperate not to let Howard speak the truth. I think she is nervous I think she has seen the polls.

Landrieu has gone thru Karl Rove’s media training.

In the bill that the Governor is now saying he’s not for, there is a national, non-profit option that gives the same choices that members of Congress and federal employees have. If that’s not enough, I don’t know what is.

*
this was a curious line. what is she talking about?

Wow, Rahm must be serving some strong Kool-Aid up at the WH!

I was yelling at the teevee at that point “STFU and let him speak you freakin’ biatch!”

What a sloppy looking corporate whore she is!

I would like to add another note, completely respectfully: is it not odd just how many woman Democrat leaders in the Congress right now are screwing the public over on health care, which is normally a major feminist/woman’s issue?

If anyone like Landrieu campaigns anytime soon on being a woman and that being a blow struck for feminism, I am just going to scream …

Yeah, with grain alcohol in it and if the Dems don’t lay off the stuff they are gonna wake up with a killer hangover.

Having been a woman on Wall St for a long time, I’m familiar with the syndrome. You don’t get ahead in a man’s world by acting like a woman.

acute observation. The Axelrod White House is all spin all the time.

fuck wal st.

Although he has a lot of baggage I’d love to see John Conyers challenge the Great Pretender in the primaries. The symbolism would be devasting to Obama and perhaps set the stage for a legitimate challenger.

See desperate if people agree with your view you can get away with that Fox News does that all the time knowing their 20%ers approve.
However just what bunch of voters does Mary speak to who support her view? The 20%ers don’t like this, we don’t like this, the regular american voter (not us news junkies ) is just getting informed about this bill and given Mary’s lack of existing support on this bill her tactics fall flat.
The Obama PR machine selling this bill is copying Fox News tactics without understanding how they work Amateur Hour.

Sherrod Brown needs to think fucking hard about who he is. He voted Yes on moving Bernanke along, and is giving permission for this HCR fraud to continue.

You know, in some weird, contorted way, I’m glad they took out the PO and Medicare for 55-64 because now the bill laid bare can be seen by all to be such a sell out to the insurance companies.

The small fig leaves of the PO and Medicare expansion were barely enough to make the bill palatable (ok, the Medicare expansion was HUGE in my world)…

But now suddenly everyone is talking about how bad it is…

Did you know that even tho they tout pre-existing conditions as no longer being allowed, that yeah they will insure you but it will cost you twice as much (Howard Dean on Morning Joe today)? As has been explained here so wonderfully by Marcy… they actually have re-inserted annual caps on payouts?

And in reality, rescissions will occur because the insurance cos. will make it too expensive to afford coverage?

This is all smoke and mirrors and a clearly blatant win for the insurance companies.

Even some of the “good” things have been either removed or changed so much they are no longer “good.”

Lord help us.

Last year my father sent a Christmas ornanment.
It’s a picture of Obama with “Thank you Santa” under it.

It’s on the tree. But the gift of last year has not worn well.

I will probably post this a few times over the next month:
After Obama’s vote on FISA, I withdrew from his web site, email list, and did not send any more money. He folded when it mattered most. I still voted for him, but only b/c McCain and Palin truly were a scary combination.

I am disappointed to say the least.

Jane and all — I read every post on your site in 05 and 06. a lot of the comments too. Liveblogging the SLibby trial…
When the 06 congressional majority voted to fund the wars at a higher level than the R Congress, I just gave up.

I tuned back in for FISA. was HORRIBLY disappointed.

and I have tuned back in for HCR.
I want to say that the Orwellian tactic of naming things. No Child Left Behind. Clear skies Initiative, etc. Patriot Act. shit like that where you name something for what it isn’t– Well Health Care REFORM has achieved the same level of nonsense.

ef em all.

Obama lost me at the FISA vote in summer 08.
this just confirms it further, with wider impact to others. I knew then he couldn’t be trusted/counted on to deliver the vote.

switching to Credo for Christmas.
I will tell them NARAL shouldn’t be on their list, based on the “powder dry” BS.

So very disappointed. hatefully so.

thanks for a wonderful website.

CJC

There is a post at Washington Monthly that is worth a look.

But notice the quality of the debate. Note that Howard Dean, Markos Moulitsas, much of the FireDogLake team and others are raising important questions and pointing to real flaws. At the same time, note that Ezra Klein, Jonathan Cohn, Nate Silver and others are offering meaningful defenses of the Democratic plan, based on substantive evaluations.

http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/archives/individual/2009_12/021506.php

Poll testing they think women seen as more caring and concerned about healthcare plus a Dem voter base will respond better to women selling this crap.
Still all the advertising in the world on dog food can’t sell dog food dogs don’t like. There are limits to advertising.

Why is that when you edit a post all the paragraphs, originally separated by lines, all get merged into one?

I was going to say something to that effect but you beat me to it. The notion that women are automatically predisposed to be nurturing is a stereotype. There are many women who fit that description but it’s certainly not mandatory.

either obama and some leadership dems dont know how fucked they are or they dont care having accomplished thier mission for goldman. its not just the “radical” “irrational” “far left” folks here on FDL who have turned on them.
my parents who are lifelong dems, just slightly left of “moderate”, upper middle class establishment types have unsubribed to all of the corporate dem spam from OFA and the DLC. they are done with them too. and so are there freinds. if this was for the sake of 2010 then they are obviously too oblivious and incompetent to lead anyway.

Jane, our family worked long hours on Obama’s campaign and put in time on some state races as well to try and secure a Democratic Majority. Perhaps that is why like many of the contributors on this site feel all the more betrayed and outraged. This last week with the capitulation to Lieberman and the failure of drug re-importation, a few of my fellow workers from the campaign last fall are ready to walk away from politics. They feel utterly betrayed. One close friend said she had to simply turn off the TV in their house because she was afraid her husband’s health could not withstand his daily rage any longer. You seem to hang in there and keep fighting the good fight against these cretins that are selling us out more blantantly by the minute. I guess I have one question that perhaps you can address. Just where do the Democrats think their voters are going to come from in 2010 and beyond. They have demoralized the loyal activists, the passionate youthful first time voters, the volunteers and even life long democrats, and blown off the Independents that were willing to line up with us in ’08? You can’t count corporate cash at the ballot box on election day. You need actual voters. Americans have a short attention span, and “Change We Can Believe In” now has about as much credibility as a late night informercial.

Don’t you love how Obama is now using fear to try and sell a piece of garbage as a great victory for the American people. The sky is falling, the sky is falling. Looks like he’s taken a page from the Decider but at this point who is surprised?

FYI – As just noted in the last thread, Roland Burris will obviously be voting for cloture on the yet-to-be-revealed “Senate” (Democratic Party) health care bill, per comments he just made on the Senate floor.

No need to answer where to go in 2010 or 2012 now. There will be plenty of stuff that happens between now & then to help make up your mind.

It would work better if he had his own 9/11 shock doctrine governing needs a shock first. Again Amateur hour they see what Bush did they see what Fox does they try and copy it without creating or understanding why it worked then and why it won’t work now.
Obama won because reality the desire for change was greater than what the Ad men could sell.

Obama = Bush
Emanuel = Rove

How in the world could all of this be happening…

There’s a youtube video from 2003 of Obama saying he supports single payer.

How far the mighty have fallen.

The Illinois senator this afternoon formally announced he will seek the Democratic nomination for president –

Let’s be the generation that finally tackles our health care crisis. We can control costs by focusing on prevention, by providing better treatment to the chronically ill, and using technology to cut the bureaucracy. Let’s be the generation that says right here, right now, that we will have universal health care in America by the end of the next president’s first term.

…

I want to win that next battle – for better schools, and better jobs, and health care for all.

Candidate Obama
Saturday 10 February 2007

We’ve been a Failed State for some time already.

Much like Sarah Palin went through Newts GOPAC media training with the same results I think she passed with Cliff Notes.

What a big fat lying liar she is. Saying that there is a non-profit insurance option in the bill. I almost swallowed my tongue.

Well… he is providing “health care for all” by handing over our tax payer dollars to the private insurance companies… so strictly speaking he stuck to that promise.

It’s the public option that he campaigned on that’s missing from the picture.

I may be wrong here, but wasn’t the “fix” in with Landrieu,just last month,right before Thanksgiving?

‘Louisiana Purchase’ Landrieu Blames ABC Report of $100 Million …Nov 21, 2009 … There were billions of dollars that came in from insurance, and from road, …. …and she has done this time after time…and always gets her way. … As if it was … mere coincidence … that this money came just as the healthcare vote? …. So instead of dropping it the day before the election. …
newsbusters.org/…/louisiana-purchase-landrieu-blames-abc-report-100-million-buyoff-very-par – Cached

Health care reform bill gets boost in Senate – Sunday, Nov. 22, 2009The bill sets aside hundreds of billions of dollars in tax credits to help those ….. is causing healthcare costs to skyrocket before drafting bills to fix it. … This effectively bought the vote of Senator Mary Landrieu of Louisiana. …
http://www.unionleader.com/article.aspx?…Health+care…gets... – Cached

Once again we’re stuck with an Emperor who has no clothes.

Universal health care yes. He just didn’t say you’d be forced to pay for it out of your own pocket.

Internal process. Same thing with the slashes that appear before an apostrophe in preview. Inside the machine there are no para breaks. Tags are applied when the comment is posted.

I think one of the options should be a public insurance option. (Loud cheers) Let me clear. It would only be an option, nobody would be forced to choose it. No one with insurance affected by it. But what it would do is provide more choice and more competition. It would keep pressure on private insurers to keep the policies affordable, to treat their customers better. I mean think about it. It’s the same way the public colleges and universities provide additional choice and competition to students. That doesn’t inhibit private colleges and universities from thriving out there. The same should be true on the health care front. Minnesota I have said I’m open to different ideas on how to set this up we’re going to set this up but I’m not going to back down on the basic principle that if Americans can’t find affordable coverage we’re going to provide you a choice.

President Obama
Saturday September 12, 2009
Minneapolis, MN

Just didn’t say that his idea of affordable was quite a bit different from your definition of what is affordable.

What does the United States Senate and World Wrestling Entertainment share in common?

Well, if you have ask [okay, it's the scripted acquisition of money] you’ll probably never figure it out anyway.

It’s not just a coincidence that, after health care industry CEOs, Vince McMahon is Obama’s most frequent dinner companion.

Smackdown with the House is next, of course before Blustering Joe Lieberman is crowned the new world champion at the signing ceremony.

Reformats when the page is refreshed.

Can it be changed? Or should I just live with miss-spellings? 8>)

That too.

How ya doon? How’s yer boy Bob?

Fantastic thread, Jane. Thank You.

Landrieu has been blatantly lying about this at least since she accused us of selling the public option as a “free lunch,” claiming that the public option was so popular in polls because people thought it was “free.” She’s just a total dipshit, a waste of space. Howard stomped her.

If we can kill this bill we shiv Joe. We show Obama and Rahm we have power and they can’t take us for granted let alone pass anything without us.
Obama will lose allot of Cred so I expect him to get this passed quick if he can, I expect him to give a speech soon and fight for this bill.
We need to delay this bill passing. Its Obama’s choice if he wants to risk his Cred more fighting for a bill that the more people find out about it the less popular I expect it will become.

Don’t your line breaks reappear after you refresh the page? That’s how it works for me.

It does indeed! Thanks…

(we have to look for joy in the little things, since the big things like staying alive if you get sick are out of our reach… I’m self-insured with junk insurance)

FDL News Desk:

Bill Clinton Writes Fundraising Letter For Blanche Lincoln

enjoy reading.

No it won’t coorekt yuor msispelilng. Ya gotta do that before ya hit submit.

Wow, thanks moderator!

Bill Clinton, best Republican president since Dwight Eisenhower.

I’m doing okay, how ’bout you?

Bob’s good, I’m expecting his xmas present to arrive today. Parrot playstand that can be rolled into other parts of the house.

I agree completely and said so a couple of days ago… Let’s show Rahm and BO that they can’t shove this shit down our throats and call them on it…

He clearly wants to get it passed by the State of the Union speech… we’ve waited 60 years, we can wait several more months for reconciliation to get true reform.

I don’t think the mandate to buy health insurance will last very long. The usual comparison is that state laws mandate that you buy car insurance. One doesn’t have to have a car, but one has to have “health”.

I don’t think I can engage in politics anymore unless it’s just fine with everyone if my every word (or maybe every other word) is fuck, shit, piece of, asshole, fucking liar, etc.
And even that is not nearly not NEARLY expressive enough.

So if Landrieu is correct, and we can assume that the Whitehouse OKd her spokesperson position, then everything after Obama talked to the Insurance and Pharmacy bigwigs was just part of playing the rubes. This is the defense the lobbyist shills pretending to be part of a democracy want to use?

Sure we were lying, what did you expect?

I don’t see it that way because healthcare is more tangible than most issues. Every American that has healthcare coverage either sits down and writes a check for it every month or has it taken out of their paycheck. They will see the costs rising, the benefits decreasing and the same lack of personal control over the extortion of the insurance industry and PHARMA month after month as more and more of their wealth is transferred to these greedy industries. They will blame Obama and the Democrats. Even people that don’t pay attention to politics will get it when they see the rising costs that will continue if this bill passes. These people aren’t going to be eager to go to the polls for Democrats. Nothing influences voters more than pocketbook issues and this one is a doosy.

fyi – President Nelson continues to pout and threatens to hold his breath ’til he turns blue :D

Nebraska Sen. Ben Nelson – the moderate Democrat whose opposition is holding up the Senate’s health care bill – says new language on abortion doesn’t satisfy his concerns.

link

seriously, what’s left he wants taken out ?

I’m glad you posted this, Jane. I watched it too last night with my mouth hanging open. What jumped out at me was Mary Landrieu upbraiding Governor Dean for beating up on the insurance companies. Good thing the insurance companies have Senators like Mary to protect them.

And I continue to believe that a public option within the basket of insurance choices would help improve quality and bring down costs.

President Obama
September 7, 2009
Cincinnati, OH

Dirty Joe Must Go!
Dirty Joe Must Go!
Everybody now– Dirty Joe Must Go!

My current expletive of choice is “velcro.”

First Thanks Jane for all you do!!
My rant:
Kill The Bill Baby Kill The Bill!@!

Change that to Obama and I’ll sing along. Not worth it for scapegoats.

Of course, Reid is a creature of the Senate.

Yes, and the Senate is a creature of which of the following:

1] Wall Street
2] Wall Street
3] Wall Street
4] Wall Street!!

Only one choice is correct—so consider it carefully.

LOL
damn, i needed that. Thanks Rat

Video: Obama Makes Case Against Mandates

http://news.firedoglake.com/2009/12/17/video-of-obama-making-the-case-against-mandates/

I say great! The more people that don’t vote yes, the better for Americans… so Go Ben!

(Altho I’m sure in the end they will find some way to accomodate the fuck).

Nah, Bob’s not spoiled. Cool toy.

I’m listening to Ralph Nader live on WMNF and haven’t heard a word I disagree with yet. Pimping his new book and ego apparently put away for the occasion. Good interview. Will be archived later.

(((Margot)))

I’m a little spun right now and could be incorrect, but believe the Bill in it’s current form threatens to gut States Ins. Regs.

and that Ratigan guy ripped the mandatory car insurance analogy to shreds:

‘one can not arbitrarily leave employer provided insurance and join the exchange – I can leave my current car insurer for another any time I want’

This is very interesting, and I can see a bi-partisan coalition forming.

Dems began the process with punishing insurance companies as a close second reason to enact reform after expanding coverage. Now, the bill is ending up rewarding insurance companies. The “bad guys” in the play are coming out on top.

You can be sent to jail for not giving the insurance companies money. That’s a pretty good deal for the insurance companies.

Now, I hear Ben Nelson is saying “no deal” unless the abortion language is changed.

Can it get any worse??

Ezra Klein at American Prospect and Michael Yglesias at the Center for American Progress ASSURED us in July 21 that (a) Obama said he would fix Senate shortcomings in the Conference Committee and (b) a STRONG PUBLIC OPTION was one of Obama’s bottom line demands.

From http://voices.washingtonpost.com/ezra-klein/2009/07/barack_obama_on_health-care_re.html

“At about 5:30 p.m. today, President Obama held a conference call on health-care reform that included, in his closing remarks, an unusually thorough glimpse at the White House’s legislative strategy:”

Ezra goes on to quote Obama as saying:
“There will be a conference committee where the House and Senate bills will be reconciled, and that will be a tough, lengthy and serious negotiation process.”
(How’s that working out, by the way?)

But here is another EZRA quote of Obama at that blogger conference:

“Conference is where these differences will get ironed out. And that’s where my bottom lines will remain:

Does this bill cover all Americans?

Does it drive down costs both in the public sector and the private sector over the long-term….

Does it have a serious public option in place? Those are the kind of benchmarks I’ll be using. ”

See also http://yglesias.thinkprogress.org/archives/2009/07/obama-underlines-importance-of-conference-committee.php

In hindsight, this almost looks like Center for American Progress was trying to falsely reassure us in order to subvert, undermine and dissipate any Progressive push for real reform.

David Dayen has a fresh cross-post up: “Video Of Obama Making The Case Against Mandates”

Ralph can still be good for the occasional objective analysis when he’s not too busy self promoting.

You could devise a word that means all those things and save a lot of typing. Might even end up in the urban dictionary. *g*

If Douglas Adams could do it in Hitchhiker’s Guide why can’t you.

Low info voter is already catching on.

But that’s part of the process of collecting more information in the next year or so. More and more people will catch on to how bad the bill is, and that could have many consequences. Could bring more progressives into the political process. Could change the minds of some Ds.

I’m not giving up on changing the bill to something better, but I think that’s low probability. So I’m thinking ahead to the consequences for the political scene writ large. Jane is right that it’s bad for the current class of D pols, but that is only the beginning of the story.

Correctomundo re State Insurance Regs, as Howard Dean explained on Morning Joe today… He explained that even tho Vermont has strict regulations on insurance companies now, they will be overriden by the new weak insurance company regs.

This is a major win for insurance companies all the way around.

.

Why don’t we all get behind Olbermann’s suggestion. Kill that mandate and let the bill go for a vote.
If tarheeldem is correct and Obama campaigned against any mandates, let’s hold him to keeping his word, on this at the very least.

Let those few Dems who vote NO fall to their peril, rather than taking the whole party down as a cover for their dirty back room deals. Obama too can veto the bill, at his peril.

Make them swallow their own poison pill.

With Leiberman they have 59 votes, leaving Nelson as the lone Dem opponent. Think he’d stand alone? No way. Lieberman is the one. This guy looks more and more like a sociopath to me. He’s reveling in the attention. I’m gonna take a wild guess that growing up he wasn’t Mr. Popularity. And the world will pay for that now.

Dirty Joe Must Go!
Dirty Joe Must Go!

Jane, So glad you touched upon this as I just commented this morning on another story that you should! You are so on target. Landrieu lied to the American public and she is the democratic embodiment of Liz Cheney in looks, attitude and devotion to lies.

A little old but still relevant. Whitey on the Moon.

As I’ve been learning more about the total, complete win for insurance companies on multiple levels… taking out the mandates alone is not enough to make the rest of the bill palatable, imho.

Landrieu is consistently on lists of the most corrupt people in Congress. It is interesting, even appropriate, that she was chosen to be the spokesperson for Obamacare.

Here is another Center for American Progress account of the July 20
Conference Obama had with Progressive bloggers in which Obama is quoted as
saying a robust public option is the way to go:

http://thinkprogress.org/2009/07/20/obama-blogger-call-health-care/

Gee, why should Progressives get up and fight with those kind of assurances?

Show me a presidential candidate without an ego! It is absurd and disingenuous to be attacking Ralph on the basis of ‘ego’! Find something substantial in the policy arena, notice what it means to be a ‘Democrat’ since DLC, and by virtue of the Obama experience and stay away from mythologies.

And the letter of support from Clinton says it all.

I do not want this terrible Senate bill to pass. I don’t care who kills it.

Blame rests squarely on the Dem leaders, especially Obama for placing corporate welfare above the common good.

I blame Jacob Hacker. If only he had dubbed his federally subsidized public plan “the flood insurance option”, Mary Landrieu would have sponsored the bill.

Specifically, both Louisiana senators, Mary Landrieu, D, and David Vitter, R, have placed a hold on Senate legislation containing a similar provision because it would mandate charging actuarial rates on NFIP policies.

They object to it because the majority of Louisiana homeowners depend on the program, according to Ms. Landrieu, and raising rates would have the potential to make it beyond the ability of some Louisiana customers to pay.
http://www.claimsmag.com/News/2007/11/Pages/House-Flood-Reform-Bill-Seen-Less-Costly.aspx

Ezra Klein is a tool. That was his main qualification for getting hired at the WaPo.

Hey, if you look at the Center for AMerican Progress site I linked to
in 103, they even had Obama on TAPE saying he wanted a Robust Public
Option.

Unfortunately, if you try to access the Youtube tape NOW it says
“This video has been removed due to terms of use violation”

I guess it got put with those missing Cheney emails.

“God, mark me now! Mark me! As a man and woman of the cross of Jesus Christ! Say ‘mark me!”

I’m an atheist. No God in my script.

But should there actually be a God and He is up on high watching stuff like this being done in His name….?

Or, as Frederick pointed out to Lee in Hannah and Her Sisters, “if Jesus were to come back and see what is being done in His name, He would never stop throwing up.”

It is the sheer inanity….the mindlessness…of reactionary religious and the ideological fanatics that is ever so depressing when I comntemplate the future of democracy in America. Hell as they say is a place utterly awash in the impossibility of reason.

Only Wall Street is more dangerous a foe.

You are so full of crap. Please skip my comments in the future and I will return the favor.

It has come to this. In order for the Democrats to prove they belong running this country, the gloves need to come off. They are behaving as if they don’t belong in the majority. I completely understand the need to reach out and make compromise. However, the majority has the right to control the dialogue and amend where it sees fit based on the electorate. I can guarantee the Republicans would bulldoze partisan legislation if they were in charge. The fact that President Obama won by an alarming margin, should boost the parties’ ambition.

What matters here is the best course of action, whatever that means! If a single payer, government controlled health care program is best for our citizens then so be it. If it is a mix, somewhere in between, then that should be the solution. A lot can be gained by using the best of ideas, regardless of political persuasion or impact on greedy, profit driven insurance companies. If the Democrats indeed want to stay in charge for the next 40 years (see J. Carville) they need to take the gloves off and architect health care legislation based on what they firmly believe is the correct solution.

President Obama has two options (short of losing the health care battle altogether). 1.) Allow the current legislation to become law and 2.) Reconciliation. The first is obviously a political move. Given his low approval ratings, could the administration stomach going back to the drawing board or insist on reconciliation? The majority of the country would see it as a win if this watered down bill passes.

Reconciliation in my opinion is the only way to validate Democrats belong in charge. It is bold, but essential at this point. The message sent would be “we were elected to move this country in a new direction and we will not be swayed from what is right for all Americans”. In the aftermath of this difficult time (economy, environment, energy), Democrats will have proven that belong in charge. But only if they take the gloves off and fight.

Hey TCUndone & eCAHN!

Heh. You two spotted it. ‘Cept reciting a mantra can’t seem to save Mary mary quite contrary from her [guilty-as-charged] blinkums & whines, so all that training goes up in smoke.

Sarah the shooter-of-wolves, otoh, is a from a different bait-bucket; appears totally rock-solid amoral [caint give a dang], as opposed to maryL’s immoral quaverings aplenty [as she vaguely considers repercussions from the trap of her own making].

does that make sense to you guys? i’ve seen it before. repulsive. no excuse for either condition; jury inconclusive whether incurable. i try not to waste significant time on either version, but it is instructive to see two such fine examples of the malady/ies.

Spoken like a real ‘je ne sais quoi’.

We weren’t discussing Nader as a prez candidate. We were talking about his appearances more recently.

Mary Landrieu, poster child for why Dems should get crushed in the mid-terms.

More specifically, a poster child for why Wall Street Dems should be crushed by Progressive Dems in the primaries.

Never forget that distinction. Without it the Dems will just pass the baton on to the real Wall Street pros next Fall.

And I merely lodged my disagreement with this (we fail to read between the lines at own peril):

“I’m listening to Ralph Nader live on WMNF and haven’t heard a word I disagree with yet. Pimping his new book and ego apparently put away for the occasion.

I am absolutely certain that Nader would have done the FDR thing on all The corporate thieves: He would have WELCOMED THEIR HATE!

measured. nice.

how are the tigers faring, kind sir? please give them our holiday greetings, and save plenty for yerself. ;->

Strip out the mandates… ADD the Public Option or both! Anything less?

KILL THE BILL!

If this POS insurance giveaway passes, count me as one that sits on my hands until Obama is out. The man is NO leader. He can’t run his own party let alone the country. I strongly supported Hillary Clinton, and this is why. Obama can’t lead. He is no FDR, LBJ, or JFK for that matter. The Democrats are going to get killed in the mid-terms because they are the weak party. Bush and the Republicans forced their agenda through, no matter what, AND with democratic help along the way.

Excuse my language… What a bunch of pussies.

hush child. your lite saber grows dim.

child? Who did you vote for?

You don’t get ahead in a man’s world by acting like a woman

Indeed.

Boys will be boys and girls will be girls some say. But in America, in order to succeed they all have to choose to be men.

Which is to say that Wall Street prizes, above all, the aggressive, cutthroat, dog eat dog mentality of the male species.

The caring, compassionaite, nurturing qualities generally attributed to females, while often praised abstractly, will get you no where out in the good ole boys world.

If men were more like women there would be so much less exploitation and violence in the world. Instead, we go in the other direction. We reward women for acting more like men. They must be tougher, less compassionaite, ready to go in for the kill.

Whether they be lobbyists, CEOs, generals or high government officials, men are leading cause of almost all the world’s most egregious injustices.

I suspect that he was holding out for the prison jobs when he made his remarks (Open Left wrote about it). Burris held out for jobs for Illinois and he got them the day after he threatened to hold out for the public option. I guess he still may vote against the bill.

I wonder if Sanders can justify not voting for cloture after all the spouting he’s been doing about the cloture process.

It is sad that both Democratic and Republican voters must purge their middles in order to hope to pass legislation. Congress will be even nastier after 2010, but the foundation has been laid.

Everybody take a step to the left, note where primaries must be battled, and start local (re)movements as soon as possible.

WORD!!!!

be wary crossing the next pride of lions you encounter.

or a female cowbird.

So does anyone have any insight why Burris did a 180 from being the man who would say no to the one who now says yes we can?

Edit: just saw NancyWilling’s comment at #123.

lol!

As shameless opportunists go, female cowbirds are my favorite.

heh.

mebbe that’s why they have such a crummy excuse for a song. no male role model.

p. e. a. c. e.

On a procedural basis, what I find fascinating about the exchange is that Howard Dean patiently sat there while Landrieu filibustered with her b.s. Then, as soon as Dean starts talking, Landrieu starts talking over him. Matthews doesn’t shush her. But as soon as Dean starts responding to what Landrieu says during her interruptions, Matthews shushes him. Corporate electronic “journalism” at its finest.

OK. For the 1,000,000,000th time -

STOP BUYING THE PRODUCT.

Just stop. You want insurance companies to go away.

Stop feeding the beast and it will die.

What is so hard to understand about this?

I wonder if Sanders can justify not voting for cloture after all the spouting he’s been doing about the cloture process

He is one of the ones who put a hold on Bernanke’s nomination so he does favor some parliamentary maneuvers.

Lord help us

Of course, they have churches in and around Wall Street too. And not just the New York Stock Exchange.

Remember, Goldman Sachs is on their own mission of God.

I guess the reference to Jesus driving the money grubbers out of the temples was excised from Lloyd’s Bible. And Joe’s and Harry’s and Max’s and Rahm’s and Tim’s and Larry’s and Barack’s too apparently.

I can only guess that it was a ploy to exact something he wanted in exchange for his vote. He either got it or was blackmailed.

I think most of us here could give a rat’s arse what happens in the football game. Personally, I’m a little more worried about security roughing up people in the stands, confiscating their cash, and taking away their 7up signs because it’s a Coke stadium.

The male cowbirds have a cute little song and dance. Well, not a song really, more of a trill.

Yes, my last point, thank you Chris. In the bill that the Governor is now saying he’s not for, there is a national, non-profit option that gives the same choices that members of Congress and federal employees have. If that’s not enough, I don’t know what is.

She pulled this out her ass, right?

I don’t think I can engage in politics anymore unless it’s just fine with everyone if my every word (or maybe every other word) is fuck, shit, piece of, asshole, fucking liar, etc

Indeed, the movie Glengarry Glen Ross tells us more about how Washington functions than Mr. Smith Goes To Washington.

In other words, money doesn’t talk it swears. And there are no happy endings.

Remember the scenes with Shelly Levene dealing with the hospital and his sick daughter?

The whole fucking system is a fucking lie.

Right?

are you forgetting sarahtheflautist? that aberration too was shameless, or clueless. dangerous? oh yeah. who knew?!

we link.
you decide.

seriously, what’s left he wants taken out ?

He wants them to *add* that abortion will be illegal. :-(

Jobless claims rise to 480,000
Number of Americans filing initial unemployment claims up unexpectedly.

meant to have read: predictably.

| there is a national, non-profit option that gives the same choices that members of Congress and federal employees have. If that’s not enough, I don’t know what is.|

No it’s not enough. We want the salaries that Congress has and the subsidies to premiums that Congress has. And, oh yes, the federal government negotiating with insurance companies for all of us to have lower premiums.

The insurance companies are just the middlemen. Instead, Uncle Sam should be negotiating with providers and drug companies. The only government programs that cut out the middleman for both are the DoD’s Tricare plan and the VA’s similar program CHAMPVA (Tricare used to be called CHAMPUS). The two programs pay Medicare provider rates and VA drug prices. I mentioned here last week what happened when the Pentagon opened up its Tricare single-payer system a few years ago to a reservist buy-in option in the new “Tricare Reserve Select” (TRS).
http://fdlaction.firedoglake.com/2009/12/09/public-option-remains-popular-health-care-reform-not-so-much/#comment-67614

Since Tricare doesn’t collect premiums from active duty personnel, the DoD wasn’t sure how to set the premiums for TRS. So they looked to a comparable FEHB plan (Blue Cross Standard) and adjusted the rates downward to adjust for Tricare’s younger demographic. The idea was for premiums (including a DoD employer contribution) to equal cost of coverage. After a year of paying TRS claims, the DoD was surprised to discover they’d overcollected individual plan premiums by 72% and family premiums by 44% for the expense of providing coverage.

Its pretty clear that FEHB coverage is no bargain compared to Tricare. The Pentagon ended up cutting premiums dramatically to stop overbilling its reservists. So naturally the Senate has offered FEHB as its “public option” model instead of Tricare.

that’s always been one of tweetie’s greatest failings. i think he thinks it makes him look smart. i doubt he sees it as the blatant “tell” of bias, as it appears to virtually everyone else on the planet.

There’s a great article over at daily beast, written by conservative columnist Reihan Salam – The Left’s Worst Enemy…. clearly calling out Obama for his neoliberal actions in everything he’s done… and likening the fawning left to teh fawning right under Bush… it is worth reading.

Here is his analysis of Obama’s choices on “health care reform”:

I am increasingly convinced that liberals are repeating the mistakes made by credulous Bush-era conservatives.

Because I’m a pro-market conservative who thinks Washington has grown too powerful and too rich at the expense of middle class taxpayers, liberals have every reason to dismiss my take on the matter. Rest assured, I’ll survive the crushing blow to my ego. I will happily acknowledge that I don’t embrace the left’s effort to transform the United States into a social democracy. But as someone who believes that the left has made valuable contributions to American life, the utter spinelessness of the organized left in the face of the president’s near-contempt strikes me as more than a little depressing.

I am increasingly convinced that liberals are repeating the mistakes made by credulous Bush-era conservatives. When grassroots ideologues, whether they’re on the right or the left, roll over and play dead, we get policies written by powerful corporate interests for powerful corporate interests.

Consider the health reform debate. In August, Mark Schmitt, editor of The American Prospect, wrote a richly informed post on the history of the public option. Jacob Hacker, the celebrated Yale political scientist, drew on the failure of President Clinton’s reform effort to devise a politically shrewd plan that, among others things, gave workers and firms the option of enrolling in a public insurance program modeled on Medicare. Over time, this “public option,” as it came to be known, would grow and grow thanks to its Medicare-like advantages. So while liberals couldn’t achieve single-payer in one fell swoop, this strong version of the public option offered a gradual, politically palatable way of getting there.

Early on, however, the Obama administration failed to capitalize on the extraordinary popularity of Medicare to sell voters on a strong public option. Rather, the White House emphasized aspects of reform that were most appealing to for-profit insurers. Eventually, the Democratic proposals coalesced around an individual mandate that would provide private insurers with a captive market and billions in federal subsidies that would allow them to charge much more than the market would otherwise bear. Without a strong public option, the mandate-plus-subsidies plan became an almost ludicrously generous giveaway to the insurance industry, sprinkled with cost-control pilot programs that smack of wishful thinking.

Only a handful of netroots progressives fully grasped the central importance of a strong public option in achieving the left’s real goals. (obviously FDL falls into this category…)

………. snip

Because the left has decided to line up behind this neutered reform, it is the left that will be discredited when the jury-rigged starts to crumble under the weight of cost growth and administrative nightmares.

This is despite the fact that a straightforward single-payer system, traditionally the left’s real goal, might actually work better than this hybrid monstrosity. The parallels to the right are obvious. When President Bush first came into office, almost every abandonment of conservative principle was ignored in favor of robotic cheerleading.

Read the rest here…

No sorry, I should have clarified more.

The point is that if ‘some’ bill is going to go through regardless, with the carrots having all been removed in fairness at least have Obama or Reid demand – since Obama did camnpaign against mandates- that the huge horrific stick of a mandate, be removed as well.

We know that’s the insurance industry’s earmark.

let’s hold Obama to keeping his word, on this at the very least

Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha!
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That was funny!!!! Thanks.

I can only guess that it was a ploy to exact something he wanted in exchange for his vote. He either got it or was blackmailed

His mausoleum declared a national monument?

actually the guys all get together to squeek and twirl. presumably the sly females find that irresistible. and apparently it works for them, as long as we still have other incautious birdies to enable them.

there must be a moral somewhere in this somewhere.

Landrieu is consistently on lists of the most corrupt people in Congress

Yes, but in this Senate that’s a badge of honor.

And a guarentee that in the next election cycle, the payoff will be grander still.

fyi, I meant “Lord help us” in a figurative, not literal sense… Implying that we are so screwed, only some manmade concept outside of ourselves can help us now! ,>)

Except a lot of us on the left have been very critical of Obama. Some of us even before the 2008 election. There is an element that is made up of kneejerk supporters of Obama but the right never had critics of Bush like we have critics of Obama on the left.

As for the left being blamed for this POS, that was always going to happen no matter what.

that’s about the size of it.

I think you are commenting on the wrong post. My post had nothing to do with sports or any references to football.

And as I told you in a response to that post -you’re respectfully dead wrong.

Burris will absolutely not vote for final passage “…until this bill addresses cost, competition and accountability in a meaningful way, it will not win [my vote]…”
(http://www.nbcchicago.com/news/local-beat/Burriss-Health-Care-Demands-Grow-Louder-79410477.html)

His floor speech was directed at the conference, as the last chance to improve the bill per his demands. Which of course won’t be met.

Here is a recording of the July 20 Conference Call Obama had with Progressive bloggers in which he said a robust public option was one of his
bottom line demands. Most of the meat is his concluding remarks starting at 20:10 –the EZra Klein quote in post 90 above starts around time 20:50.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/07/20/obama-calls-on-bloggers-t_n_241570.html

Agree that many of us saw this a long time ago (gee, Rahm Emanuel as COS was a pretty early clue…),

But wouldn’t you agree that with the exception of KO and Rachel (and perhaps Stewart and Colbert)… the consistent neoliberal aspect of Obama’s actions that contrast so extraordinarily with his campaign statements and promises is largely ignored in the larger media?

The blogs have clearly gotten it… but it is not out in the open… and it is only because of the removal of the PO and expanded Medicare parts of the “health care reform” bill that people are finally saying the Emperor has no clothes.

It has come to this. In order for the Democrats to prove they belong running this country…

I don’t understand, didn’t they just prove this in the Senate? Aren’t Wall Street and the insurance industry ecstatic?

Oh, wait, you mean prove it to us?

Well, first we have to prove something to them. This: that they can be replaced.

Can they be? Will they be?

Burris was trying to simultaneously talk out of both sides of his mouth on the floor, but the Party PR gives him away. He’s sold out, perhaps for the reason you note. I don’t think anyone should count on Burris blocking Obama and Reid.

In addition to what Hugh notes @ 132, Bernie Sanders has not received a vote on a single amendment of his to the health care bill (he pulled his doomed 800-page single-payer amendment from the floor when Coburn forced the clerks to read it). Neither, for that matter, have the Senators of both Parties who have filed hundreds of amendments to the bill, without being allowed to call them up for debate or a vote. [A total of about 21 amendments and motions have received votes thus far in the pseudo-floor debate, a number of which were just Sense of the Senate measures. Only about two real amendments have passed.]

Of course, many Democratic amendments are probably now being inserted into the Reid manager’s amendment in the secret “legislating” that the Democratic leadership is now unilaterally conducting off the public record in a backroom somewhere. But there’s no reason Bernie Sanders couldn’t take a principled stand on behalf of unconsidered amendments from both Parties and the lack of regular order on the floor and/or on behalf of considering reconciliation – all of which seem to me to be legitimate reasons for opposing an end to debate on the bill even for someone who may frown on the current abuse of threatened filibusters.

This exchange by Landrieu shows that she is cetainly not fit to hold high office for starters. She just can not make a cogent argument. But why would she make such a stupid remark?

Hasn’t the PO been what most of the debate has been about? They just put up an alternative to it in the Senate last week.

This woman is just terrible. Her mind is not even third or fourth class. And yet she is there arguing as if what she is saying made any sense.

Axelrod is not far behind. With a straight face they argue that this HCR package is an historic great and momentous achievement. Well that is true and for this Congress and the preceding ones it really is an achievement. That is really the best they can do. The fact that it is an abysmal failure is all the more damning for their competence.

They ask how can you knock a plan that insures 30 million people at affordable premiums. Well the same way you keep insolvent banks afloat, you use taxpayer money through subsidies and direct that money to private companies. This is the earth shattering achievement.

Of course lest we forget, the excise tax on benefits will lead to ever diminishing benefits and higher co pays to subscribers. And the cost of health care is meant to be reduced by using fewer services and not by reducing the cost of those services themselves.

The tactic of the media is never to allow a meaningful airing of the facts, if it did it would be absolutely clear that this HCR effort is worse than nothing and in fact harmful. The Senate version at least should not pass, but who or what is to stop it.

Obama being a smart man and realizing what the effects of this charade will be is the most blameworthy. He should bear the greatest part of the public’s ire. This effort reveals his basic insincerity and untrustworthiness. At least we know this much about him, and like this HCR effort it is clear that he is worse than nothing.

also reply to beowulf @ 142:

Landrieu was claiming (1) that Reid’s Manager’s Amendment will replace the public option with an exchange like FEHBP and (2) that the FEHBP clone in the Manager’s Amendment will be the same as what members of Congress have. First is true. Second is false for several reasons, most importantly that members of Congress (and federal employees) have no lifetime caps or annual caps on benefits (at least not under BCBS standard option, except for inpatient rehab), but Manager’s Amendment will allow any plans in exchanges including the FEHBP-clone to adopt benefits caps.

So yeah, Landrieu pulled it out of her ass like most of her other double-speak in that video.

test

And as I respectfully replied to you in that thread, I believe Burris is full of it.

[Based on hearing Burris speak on the floor today. Did you listen to him?]

To Ratfood:
‘I can only guess that it was a ploy to exact something he wanted in exchange for his vote. He either got it or was blackmailed”

I really think it was getting the prison for Illinois.

The deal was cut for Illinois getting the GITMO prisoners just after Burris emerged from the 60 Senator White House meeting and told the press that he was holding out for the public option.

What on earth is the alternative, the completely insane douche-tea-baggery of the Republican Party?

Do we need to resurrect the Bull Moose Party, as a *truly* progressive option? Genuinely Libertarian on social issues? Fiscally conservative without being completely insane? For Public Health Care that actually saves money? Non-interventionist internationally? Truly friendly and preservationist towards the Environment?

In REALITY?

true. other threads this week included detailed cost stats. showing that FEHBP premiums increased dramatically over recent past or will increase significantly by 2019. OPM cannot control premiums even for an 8-million member group. OPM plans are not government financed insurance, they are govt-administered private plans.

For that post I’ll have you know I squeezed myself hard to drain out my last drop of HOPE.

:/ :[ [ .

govt-administered govt-supervised privately-administered insurance plans.

Then say you’re speaking for yourself and don’t mislead others by putting your words in Burris mouth.

be wary crossing the next pride of lions you encounter.

or a female cowbird

Oh, indeed. But beasts like that…the ones out in Mutual of Omaha’s wild kingdom…are mindlessly savage.

It’s all literally in the genes.

Uh, we’re supposed to be more, well, civilized, aren’t we?

Testosterone is not on automatic pilot among our species. Even on Wall Street or on General McChrystal’s staff. Our species can tame the beasts. If we choose to. We don’t.

And so we get the NFL, brainless brats playing video games and reactionary chickhawks hellbent on sending all the other folks kids out into the jungles to kill or be killed.

This can change. Lions and cowbirds cannot.

Did you listen to Burris today?

Point out where I’m “misleading,” or putting “my words in Burris’s mouth.”

I quoted him in my first comment on that last thread, and heard nothing from him about withholding his vote on cloture on a future conference report “unless” x, y, or z. He said “now” we have to pass this (unknown) bill, not next “month,” not next “year.” He was intentionally being coy with his language to keep false hopes alive in certain observers, but the stuff I did hear was unmistakable, as I think I’ve made clear.

I know. Sorry.

I just couldn’t resist going the other way.

excellent. thanks.

I don’t think anyone should count on Burris blocking Obama and Reid

Maybe. But who would have thought after following the Democrats on the campaign trail last yeart, we’d be in here talking about Burris blocking Harry Obamaerman over health care reform.

Kabuki indeed.

I hear that. I’m down to squeesing my own from the cap on the toothpaste tube.

I can tell you that he is and has been for single-payer and Medicare for All since before dirt. And I’ll bet he thinks in parallel to your views at least 97% of the time.

“Washington is corporate-occupied territory.” Stated a LONG time ago.

“At least now you get a wolf in wolf’s clothing.” Speaking of Bush.

Ralph was WAY ahead of everybody and never wavered or weenied or backed down to the elites one iota.

Christ, I swore I’d stay away from the fever swamps today after getting like 1/2 hour of sleep last night thinking about all this shite, but this struck me. We still have to listen to this crap?

LANDRIEU: No he did not campaign for public option, he did not campaign on Medicare for all, he most certainly did not.

Of course, they’re the same thing.

Roland Burris is on the Senate floor right now, advocating passage of the Senate health care bill (some bill, details unknown), using all the facile talking points about enough debate, enough delay, “cusp” of “history” and “not perfect,” “giving up is not an option,” “we’ve come too far and worked too hard to turn back now,” a “decision is needed now, not next month or next year,” on to the “conference,” etc.

Your words say he is “advocating passage of the bill”. When what he’s clearly indicating by his words are say he’s advocating change in the “conference” and as I replied to you he will not vote for “final passage” until his demands are met.

You don’t have to believe him but don’t mislead and imply he’s going back on his word to not vote for final passage, when that has not occurred.

Who cares? Let’s just hope he kills it.

Yeah. Anybody who actually takes the time to sit and LISTEN to Ralph always comes away saying “Whoa! That’s it! That’s exactly what I’ve been saying, only he said it better.” Nobody can deliver the Progressive message with the quiet power and eloquence like Ralph can.

I wish I could hear the interview.

Second that.

When Repubs. and progressives agree [although for different reasons], it must be a baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaad bill.

They DID and Do hate him and he takes it as a badge of honor.

FN, where are you getting this? Or do you foresee it?

FWIW:

Mary Landrieu is from the same state as Billy Tauzin.

Democrats are behaving like spoiled Republicans with their talking over opposing opinions…Wasserman-Schultz did the same thing last time I watched her lie about the bill the House was working on.

Since you won’t answer the question, I take it that you did not hear Burris speaking today on the floor.

So instead you are taking the quotes of his that I provided to you, to tell me that an older news account of his position is the one he was speaking on the floor today.

I’m sorry, but you are wrong, as far as the actual tone, content and words of Roland Burris that I heard spoken today. He did not say explicitly in my hearing, as you infer from my partial quote, that he wanted any specific changes in conference, and my use of ‘passage’ obviously referred to pre-conference passage, because that’s the vote on the immediate horizon to which he seemed to be referring (though nothing I heard him say on the floor ruled out that he was referring to “final passage” too).

I wasn’t, and I’m not, denying that the news account you are citing quotes Burris as indicating, or explicitly saying, something else. Instead I was and am referring to his floor speech today which contradicts the account you quote, according to everything I heard him say. So, yes, I’m not just “implying,” I’m openly stating that I think Burris just “went back on his word” (to possibly vote against cloture on a future conference report) unless, as I said, I missed something he said on the floor today. So that did indeed “occur” today from everything I heard.

Again, Burris did not differentiate today between “passage” and “final passage” (meaning final conference report, which I didn’t reference in my original comment to which you took exception) in anything I heard. So unless you heard him say that today, you are grasping at straws to believe what you want to believe, based on an older account than the one I’m referencing.

You’re the one who’s taken an honest account of information received, provided for everyone’s information and further analysis, and twisting it to pretend that the perception I said I received is “misleading” (without even having seen the speech at issue) and wasn’t in fact the honest perception I received from a Senator speaking (like a shyster, by the way) on the Senate floor. Why you’re doing that I don’t know, but it’s all pretty much beside the point, and a distraction, until we have the transcript tomorrow, and can actually analysis the evidence, word by word.

I would like to add another note, completely respectfully: is it not odd just how many woman Democrat leaders in the Congress right now are screwing the public over on health care, which is normally a major feminist/woman’s issue?

If anyone like Landrieu campaigns anytime soon on being a woman and that being a blow struck for feminism, I am just going to scream …

In my experience out and about the mid size southern city where I live, all of the women whom I’ve engaged in conversation about HCR are plugged in and know what’s happening, regardless of education, race, religious and political affiliation, or social class. Why? Because they know someone who has breast cancer or there is a high incidence of breast cancer in their own family; many have children or are raising children; many are single parents or manage home finances; and all are worried about unaffordable rising costs. They know what single-payer healthcare is and they want it for themselves and their families.

They are disgusted and I doubt that any clever speeches will accomplish anything except piss them off even more. Interesting result, although anecdotal and not sufficiently large sample. Randomly selected, however.

(approximately 30 women between the ages of 18 and 55)

Never underestimate women’s intelligence or commitment to a cause.

Initially at zerohedge, now it’s all over.

Wanted to extend my appreciation to you for being such an eloquent and unwavering defender of R.Nader. Democrats and their love of seppuku is beyond the pale.

Glad you picked up on this Jane. I was outraged by Landreiu and what she was claiming that Dr. Dean had said.

Senator Mary Landreiu Flat out Lies about What Dr. Dean Wants In Regard to Health Care Reform.

http://seminal.firedoglake.com/diary/19322

Landrieu “best we can do under the circumstance”

“I don’t think we are going to have a better line up than we have now”

“there are Governors like Governor Dean who want to eliminate insurance companies in America. Dean “that’s not true. Landrieu “Governor that is true”

Landrieu just flat out lied. Lied..not spin lie

DR. Dean has never said “eliminate” insurance companies. Competition. Real competition

this from Open Left tells you all you need to know about why health care reform, financial services reform, and anything else that congress may consider that would benefit Joe Taxpayer always gets kicked to the curb in favour of the corporatist agenda:

In a Hill newspaper story about how super-lobbyist Tony Podesta is making millions shilling for corporations during the Obama era, there was this important snippet right at the end. It tells you everything you need to know about how Permanent Washington is, quite literally, laughing at the idea Democrats were ever serious about cleaning up the corrupt swamp:
But Podesta knows that while some politicians are passing through, he’s here for the long haul.
“President Obama will hopefully be here for eight years,” Podesta said. “And when he leaves, we’ll still be here.”

If this criminal behavior by our own president and most of congress doesnt get Americans to swarm Washington and set up camp unitl the scum is cleaned from our system then nothing will. It is so clear our nation is under complete control of criminal corporate mobsters and murderers. Yes murderers! Our own president is happy to sign a bill forcing people into this horrific system we call health care knowing people cant afford it and knowing the corporate criminals will refuse payment and deny coverage.

There is no choice but a true and forceful revolt by the WE THE PEOPLE. I wont even use the term nonviolent anymore…this must be stopped.

We’re done with concession-giving deals. We’re doing health CARE now. Who’s on board with that?