Comments on: Best Way To “Fix It Later” Is With No Individual Mandate Now http://fdlaction.firedoglake.com/2009/12/17/best-way-to-%e2%80%9cfix-it-later%e2%80%9d-is-with-no-individual-mandate-now/ Politics for liberal newsgeeks Sat, 18 Feb 2012 01:33:20 -0600 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.1.2 By: metalluk http://fdlaction.firedoglake.com/2009/12/17/best-way-to-%e2%80%9cfix-it-later%e2%80%9d-is-with-no-individual-mandate-now/#comment-72339 metalluk Sat, 19 Dec 2009 06:59:04 +0000 http://fdlaction.firedoglake.com/?p=7504#comment-72339 I get Medicare, but my wife is 59 and has no insurance. Like KO, we choose to self-insure her. It would cost us about $8000/yr to insure her. Over six years (after which she'll get Medicare) we'd pay out about $50K. We spend out-of-pocket an average of $500 per year for her health care, which would come to about $3000 over six years, if she remains healthy. There are no guarantees in life, but under the best-case and most likely scenario, we will come out roughly $47K ahead by self-insuring. Obviously, it's possible our gamble with backfire, but we have mapped out contingenies for dealing with various levels of healthcare expenses for her, should it become necessary. Since she is a fitness fanatic, a vegetarian, never drinks or smokes, and has no pre-existing conditions, she is exactly the kind of customer the insurance companies expect to profit from. Generally, what's good for the insurance companies is bad for a customer. Since we pay for whatever care she needs, our lack of insurance puts no burden on anyone else to pay any part of her expenses. The individual mandate therefore is a very bad proposition for us. The products offered by the private insurance industry are such a bad buy for us that we'd take the tax penalty rather than purchase one of their products. What "spreading the risk" really means is forcing those people who maintain healthy lifestyles to share the greater average burden of healthcare of those who don't. As with the mortgage bailout, the most responsible citizens would be forced to pay a penalty for the behavior of the least responsible. I get Medicare, but my wife is 59 and has no insurance. Like KO, we choose to self-insure her. It would cost us about $8000/yr to insure her. Over six years (after which she’ll get Medicare) we’d pay out about $50K. We spend out-of-pocket an average of $500 per year for her health care, which would come to about $3000 over six years, if she remains healthy. There are no guarantees in life, but under the best-case and most likely scenario, we will come out roughly $47K ahead by self-insuring. Obviously, it’s possible our gamble with backfire, but we have mapped out contingenies for dealing with various levels of healthcare expenses for her, should it become necessary. Since she is a fitness fanatic, a vegetarian, never drinks or smokes, and has no pre-existing conditions, she is exactly the kind of customer the insurance companies expect to profit from. Generally, what’s good for the insurance companies is bad for a customer. Since we pay for whatever care she needs, our lack of insurance puts no burden on anyone else to pay any part of her expenses. The individual mandate therefore is a very bad proposition for us. The products offered by the private insurance industry are such a bad buy for us that we’d take the tax penalty rather than purchase one of their products. What “spreading the risk” really means is forcing those people who maintain healthy lifestyles to share the greater average burden of healthcare of those who don’t. As with the mortgage bailout, the most responsible citizens would be forced to pay a penalty for the behavior of the least responsible.

]]> By: jimpager7 http://fdlaction.firedoglake.com/2009/12/17/best-way-to-%e2%80%9cfix-it-later%e2%80%9d-is-with-no-individual-mandate-now/#comment-71789 jimpager7 Fri, 18 Dec 2009 15:04:14 +0000 http://fdlaction.firedoglake.com/?p=7504#comment-71789 You don't go far enough. Holding back the mandate is a good idea, but before you fight, you gotta stop rolling over. First, reconciliation...51 votes. Nuclear? Tough shit. They had your chance. Second, screw the public option. The public option IS NOW single-payer or "Medicare for All." Third, screw Republicans. I don't care if they ever vote bi-partisan in their lives. They can rot in hell. Fourth, anyone ELSE voting against single-payer, should face a pro-single-payer challenge in their next congressional primary. Fifth, there should be Justice Department inquiries into Senators who ran on pro-health care reform, who received large health insuror campaign contributions, and who now are obstructing health care reform. Sixth, bring up single-payer legislation EVERY year until it passes. Seventh, if Republicans want to continue to filibuster, they'll have to actually do so. Get out the cots and coffee and read the dictionary on C-Span if you want, but you can't filibuster by just saying you are going to filibuster. Videotape the party of no at the height of their disfunctionality and play those tapes in their next election. Eighth, WHEN Single-Payer passes, implement the law within the elected term of the sitting Democratic President so it can't be co-opted, which it surely will if Republicans are in office. You don’t go far enough. Holding back the mandate is a good idea, but before you fight, you gotta stop rolling over.

First, reconciliation…51 votes. Nuclear? Tough shit. They had your chance.

Second, screw the public option. The public option IS NOW single-payer or “Medicare for All.”

Third, screw Republicans. I don’t care if they ever vote bi-partisan in their lives. They can rot in hell.

Fourth, anyone ELSE voting against single-payer, should face a pro-single-payer challenge in their next congressional primary.

Fifth, there should be Justice Department inquiries into Senators who ran on pro-health care reform, who received large health insuror campaign contributions, and who now are obstructing health care reform.

Sixth, bring up single-payer legislation EVERY year until it passes.

Seventh, if Republicans want to continue to filibuster, they’ll have to actually do so. Get out the cots and coffee and read the dictionary on C-Span if you want, but you can’t filibuster by just saying you are going to filibuster. Videotape the party of no at the height of their disfunctionality and play those tapes in their next election.

Eighth, WHEN Single-Payer passes, implement the law within the elected term of the sitting Democratic President so it can’t be co-opted, which it surely will if Republicans are in office.

]]> By: affinis http://fdlaction.firedoglake.com/2009/12/17/best-way-to-%e2%80%9cfix-it-later%e2%80%9d-is-with-no-individual-mandate-now/#comment-71788 affinis Fri, 18 Dec 2009 11:27:54 +0000 http://fdlaction.firedoglake.com/?p=7504#comment-71788 One thing I haven’t seen adequately discussed here. A large part of the cost of the bill (on the order of $500 billion over the next decade) will be covered by Medicare cuts. $43 billion of these cuts come from projected Medicare spending on home health care services. My significant other is a home health care nurse (working as an independent). Currently, there simply is no fat to cut in the home health care system! There’s a nursing shortage, home health care nurses are underpaid, and it’s already difficult to find sufficient nursing staff for the patients. I’ve also seen little discussion of one of the most draconian measures in the Senate bill. It sets up a permanent "Fed for Medicare" board to independently institute further Medicare cuts. These cuts could not be blocked – only tinkered with (i.e. reallocating what specific services are targeted for cutting) – by Congress. If a "tinkering" bill is not passed and signed by the President, the cuts mandated by the board go into effect automatically. And after 2020 Congress loses the power to even tinker with the cuts. http://www.slate.com/blogs/blogs/kausfiles/archive/2009/11/19/does-harry-reid-s-health-care-bill-create-a-fed-for-medicare.aspx Such a board, to cut Medicare, has been a wet dream on the Right for decades. And we’re handing it to them on a silver platter. One thing I haven’t seen adequately discussed here. A large part of the cost of the bill (on the order of $500 billion over the next decade) will be covered by Medicare cuts. $43 billion of these cuts come from projected Medicare spending on home health care services. My significant other is a home health care nurse (working as an independent). Currently, there simply is no fat to cut in the home health care system! There’s a nursing shortage, home health care nurses are underpaid, and it’s already difficult to find sufficient nursing staff for the patients.

I’ve also seen little discussion of one of the most draconian measures in the Senate bill. It sets up a permanent “Fed for Medicare” board to independently institute further Medicare cuts. These cuts could not be blocked – only tinkered with (i.e. reallocating what specific services are targeted for cutting) – by Congress. If a “tinkering” bill is not passed and signed by the President, the cuts mandated by the board go into effect automatically. And after 2020 Congress loses the power to even tinker with the cuts.

http://www.slate.com/blogs/blogs/kausfiles/archive/2009/11/19/does-harry-reid-s-health-care-bill-create-a-fed-for-medicare.aspx

Such a board, to cut Medicare, has been a wet dream on the Right for decades. And we’re handing it to them on a silver platter.

]]> By: ADC14 http://fdlaction.firedoglake.com/2009/12/17/best-way-to-%e2%80%9cfix-it-later%e2%80%9d-is-with-no-individual-mandate-now/#comment-71782 ADC14 Fri, 18 Dec 2009 04:13:41 +0000 http://fdlaction.firedoglake.com/?p=7504#comment-71782 The Dems assume they will get another “bite at the Apple” and fix this turdful bill down the road. But that’s a BIG assumption and at the rate things are going, the Dems will be back in the minority faster than Tiger’s girlfriends are running to the tabloids. That’s why it was so vital to get it right or as close to right the first time around.This bill sucks. All, not just one or two, but all of the major reforms that would have made a difference in increasing access AND reducing the cost of healthcare have been removed from the bill. That’s like asking a person who’s had his heart, kidneys and lungs removed to be grateful because at least they got to keep their spleen. Look at Mass and see what mandated health insurance with no cost controls or competition has wrought. It’s a mess and many people are NOT getting the care they need because they can’t afford the co-pays and deductibles on top of the ever rising premiums. Hospitals in Mass are going bankrupt because the state shifted the burden of caring for the poor to them.Some hospitals are suing the state to try and recover some money. In the meantime, premiums are rising there at about 15% a year-Mass has some of the highest premiums in the country. This bill is a big, fat subsidy to the insurance companies. Dean is right. It needs to die. Obama lied to us.Dems will pay in 2010. What a missed opportunity!! Obama had that magic moment when he could have moved mountains. Instead, he busied himself with mole hills like bipartisanship and Joe Lieberman. The magic is gone, folks and so has Obama’s credibility. The Dems assume they will get another “bite at the Apple” and fix this turdful bill down the road. But that’s a BIG assumption and at the rate things are going, the Dems will be back in the minority faster than Tiger’s girlfriends are running to the tabloids. That’s why it was so vital to get it right or as close to right the first time around.This bill sucks. All, not just one or two, but all of the major reforms that would have made a difference in increasing access AND reducing the cost of healthcare have been removed from the bill. That’s like asking a person who’s had his heart, kidneys and lungs removed to be grateful because at least they got to keep their spleen. Look at Mass and see what mandated health insurance with no cost controls or competition has wrought. It’s a mess and many people are NOT getting the care they need because they can’t afford the co-pays and deductibles on top of the ever rising premiums. Hospitals in Mass are going bankrupt because the state shifted the burden of caring for the poor to them.Some hospitals are suing the state to try and recover some money. In the meantime, premiums are rising there at about 15% a year-Mass has some of the highest premiums in the country. This bill is a big, fat subsidy to the insurance companies. Dean is right. It needs to die. Obama lied to us.Dems will pay in 2010. What a missed opportunity!! Obama had that magic moment when he could have moved mountains. Instead, he busied himself with mole hills like bipartisanship and Joe Lieberman. The magic is gone, folks and so has Obama’s credibility.

]]> By: kwires http://fdlaction.firedoglake.com/2009/12/17/best-way-to-%e2%80%9cfix-it-later%e2%80%9d-is-with-no-individual-mandate-now/#comment-71779 kwires Fri, 18 Dec 2009 02:13:24 +0000 http://fdlaction.firedoglake.com/?p=7504#comment-71779 This is the perfect strategy for progressives. There is no great demand to pass the mandate now since it would not kick in till after the next presidential election. Pulling thye Mandate would make the bill neutral rather than damaging. It is the right way to go. This is the perfect strategy for progressives. There is no great demand to pass the mandate now since it would not kick in till after the next presidential election. Pulling thye Mandate would make the bill neutral rather than damaging. It is the right way to go.

]]> By: cwolf http://fdlaction.firedoglake.com/2009/12/17/best-way-to-%e2%80%9cfix-it-later%e2%80%9d-is-with-no-individual-mandate-now/#comment-71778 cwolf Fri, 18 Dec 2009 02:10:40 +0000 http://fdlaction.firedoglake.com/?p=7504#comment-71778 devil worship site has JH / LD video http://www.mofopolitics.com/2009/12/17/video-psychotic-lesbian-america-hater-jane-hamsher-attacks-liberal-wacko-lanny-davis/ devil worship site has JH / LD video

http://www.mofopolitics.com/2009/12/17/video-psychotic-lesbian-america-hater-jane-hamsher-attacks-liberal-wacko-lanny-davis/

]]> By: cwolf http://fdlaction.firedoglake.com/2009/12/17/best-way-to-%e2%80%9cfix-it-later%e2%80%9d-is-with-no-individual-mandate-now/#comment-71777 cwolf Fri, 18 Dec 2009 02:04:54 +0000 http://fdlaction.firedoglake.com/?p=7504#comment-71777 Clinton also filled the river bank under the bridges with sick & dying homeless folks. Obama must maintain Bubba's legacy. Clinton also filled the river bank under the bridges with sick & dying homeless folks.
Obama must maintain Bubba’s legacy.

]]> By: Larue http://fdlaction.firedoglake.com/2009/12/17/best-way-to-%e2%80%9cfix-it-later%e2%80%9d-is-with-no-individual-mandate-now/#comment-71776 Larue Fri, 18 Dec 2009 01:47:08 +0000 http://fdlaction.firedoglake.com/?p=7504#comment-71776 Cut you off from what? Cut you off from what?

]]> By: JMorgan http://fdlaction.firedoglake.com/2009/12/17/best-way-to-%e2%80%9cfix-it-later%e2%80%9d-is-with-no-individual-mandate-now/#comment-71775 JMorgan Fri, 18 Dec 2009 01:41:20 +0000 http://fdlaction.firedoglake.com/?p=7504#comment-71775 <blockquote>I completely agree: if no public option, then no mandate. That has got to be the next mantra.</blockquote> And: If I don't see some spine, you're going to see some spittle!

I completely agree: if no public option, then no mandate. That has got to be the next mantra.

And:

If I don’t see some spine, you’re going to see some spittle!

]]> By: JimR http://fdlaction.firedoglake.com/2009/12/17/best-way-to-%e2%80%9cfix-it-later%e2%80%9d-is-with-no-individual-mandate-now/#comment-71774 JimR Fri, 18 Dec 2009 01:39:59 +0000 http://fdlaction.firedoglake.com/?p=7504#comment-71774 No big deal, he just turned sixty-four, today I think. He always gets excited when he sees someone like Jane eating Lanny Davis' lunch on the preceding show. Nervous much, Chris?! Funny about that real Democrat thing, I don't remember sharing hot dogs with him over 55-gallon drums in the late seventies at the steel mill picket line. That was after I served my enlistment instead of expanding my horizons in the Peace Corps like some lucky stiffs. No big deal, he just turned sixty-four, today I think. He always gets excited when he sees someone like Jane eating Lanny Davis’ lunch on the preceding show. Nervous much, Chris?!

Funny about that real Democrat thing, I don’t remember sharing hot dogs with him over 55-gallon drums in the late seventies at the steel mill picket line.

That was after I served my enlistment instead of expanding my horizons in the Peace Corps like some lucky stiffs.

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