One of the better-sounding arguments for passing the Senate bill is that “we can fix it later.” While this does sound appealing at first glance, I just don’t see “fixing it later” happening in the next decade or two. Democrats currently have huge majorities in both Houses and the presidency. I can’t imagine there being a time anytime soon where the Democrats have more power.
If progressives can’t push for better health care reform now with a huge grassroots push, I don’t see them having more success after Washington moves on to other topics. As long as this 60-vote myth persists in the Senate, and progressive are not taken seriously, I don’t see how any progressive change (be it on health care or any other issue) will ever happen.
The only way I can see progressives being able to fix the bill later is if they can hold something the big industries really want hostage. Progressives need something important they can trade in exchange for better reform. The only thing progressives can hold hostage for real reform is the individual mandate. The insurers, providers, drug manufacturers, etc., all want the individual mandate. What company wouldn’t want the government to force people to be its customers?
Progressives should make the rallying cry of “no public option, no mandate” an unmovable demand, now and in the future. Progressives in Congress should refuse to support the individual mandate until it is accompanied by the government guarantee of a decent, cost-effective public health insurance option.
As many in the “fix it later crowd” have pointed out, reform does not really start until 2014, and the individual mandate does not really start until 2015. Even if you believe an individual mandate is essential to make reforms in the Senate bill work, there is no reason we need to pass it now. We have five years before it would go into effect. That is five years to work out a compromise that includes an individual mandate, better reforms, and a public option.
It is pure fantasy to think if this bill passes they will later push a public option or Medicare buy-in through reconciliation or regular order just because progressives wanted it. If the progressives hold the individual mandate hostage, then it is a different story. Fortunately, most of the improvements that progressives want (public option or Medicare buy-in, Medicaid expansion, increased subsidies) and the individual mandate can be passed with a single reconciliation measure. A true grand compromise
If Congress passes this bill without the individual mandate, the insurers will moan. They will rail about how they need the individual mandate, but if they want it, progressives will have named their price. Standing firm now on “no public option, no mandate” seems to be the only position that will give progressives leverage to “fix it later.” Playing chicken with the health care lobbies on the issue of the individual mandate may not seem like a sure thing, but it is currently the only strategy I see for having leverage after this Senate bill passes.




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Concur and it’s what KO was insisting on to Obama.
Too bad the CMM isn’t mentioning “reform does not really start until 2014, and the individual mandate does not really start until 2015.” If they did, I think you’d see a whole lot of hollering from people who are now silent.
I fear this post will generate a lot of responses about the enmity of The Good by The Perfect.
Which are all bullshit, by the way.
Per Senator Sanders office, the conference cmte. report cannot be filibustered AND it can pass with just 51 votes.
As it is the GOP is prepared to saddle Democrats with the mandate as a Liberal plot even though it was they who demanded it. If progressives make a big push against the mandate and get that action in the public debate, then it will be the “Freedom” Conservatives defending it, rather than attacking needed “Honesty Requirements” like profiteering, and sick-dumping limitations, pre-existing conditions and all the other malarkey.
a conference committee report can be filibustered
or as we say at chez cbl
don’t let the Hope be the enemy of the Change
someone defriended me on fb for that – yeah, I was really heartbroken :D
Feinstein office also tells me that once the conference cmte. reports back the legislation, it cannot be filibustered and that a simple majority is all that is needed to pass it.
I also let her know that if the mandates are taken out, I’d be willing to support passage but that it is essentially a giveaway to the insurance industry.
We need somebody to dig through the Senate rules to nail down whether conference reports can be filibustered. I’m with you, I also think they can be, I just can’t dredge up a good historical example at the moment.
We should still try to kill the Senate bill because it imposes the individual mandate without the public option safety net. Theorizing about conference committee tactics might be getting a little ahead of ourselves.
It will be pretty telling if the actual rules contradict what two different Senator’s offices have told me,especially after they took they effort to make sure they understood what I was talking about(I gave them the healthcare legislation as an example).
If there is a mandate I will have no other choice but to go to jail
agreed.
Not sure anyone has designed a strategy to get changes in the Senate bill before it goes to conference. Howard Dean listed lots of egregious sellouts to insurance industry that need to be stripped out, but didn’t say who could propose an amendment to do that or when. SEIU Prez Andy Stern is telling his members he wants to fix it in conference. MoveOn raised a Million bucks (and ActBlue another quarter Mil) to punish Lieberdolt for being such an asshole. But nobody is telling how to “fix” the Senate bill before the Senate votes on it. And unless it just came out in the past hour, we still don’t have the CBO score on Reid’s Manager’s Amendment.
budget reconciliation process is different (not the same rules as other conference reports). maybe that is what they were referring to? but it’s subject to byrd rule and also points of order — at one point i tried to figure out the details but it was very complicated and it seemed there were several issues where the senate parliamentarian would have to rule and it wasn’t clear to me (or the person i spoke to in their office) how that might go. although this was all months ago and so probably has no bearing on what is happening now. you might check what kagro x has written recently on the matter if you want another opinion.
has dean seen the bill?
probably nothing has me more pissed off than the fact that i can’t read it for myself.
ubetchaiam, better yet – here’s a reply from pow wow:
http://news.firedoglake.com/2009/12/17/seius-stern-pass-the-bill-out-of-senate-fix-it-in-conference/#comment-9542
In the “Morning Joe” clip I watched, Dean didn’t mention the Manager’s Amendment, I assumed he was talking only about the printed bill. The one with 2,074 pages. I’m sure that bill is available on thomas.loc.gov, I think it’s H.R. 3590 (unrelated House bill being used as shell for Senate package).
Unfortunately, I think the individual mandate was the trade-off just to get the insurance companies to accept all the new regulation.
Jon’s argument for dropping the individual mandate is excellent, but I think that there aren’t nearly enough senators with the courage to betray the people they’re really serving: insurance industry executives.
I’d like to think that someone like Senator Rockefeller would have the courage of his convictions, but seeing him come out against Dean the way he has in the defense of garbage…
I supported Howard Dean for the presidential nominaton in 2004, even after he withdrew (I didn’t vote for Kerry in the primary).
I’m supporting Howard Dean for the presidential nominaton in 2012.
If Obama doesn’t wake the fuck up and stop screwing us over, there will be a huge army of Americans supporting Howard Dean in ’12.
Jon says, “No public option, no mandate.” I agree, though I’m not so sure it’ll work.
I think we need to repeat in constant refrain the words:
“Disappointment,” as in Obama’s a big disappointment, and
“Disappointed,” as in we totally regret ever having believed in him, supported him, worked for him, contributed to him, voted for him.
Not long after FDL Action started Blue America, Jane wrote:
Congress wasn’t the only problem. We elected the wrong guy to run the White House last year.
This is the pending Senate bill , those two-foot high stacks of printed matter which were on Senators’ desks last week (not tonight, however). It is proposed as a massive “amendment” to an unrelated bill previously passed by the House. The master bill actually passed by the House is H.R. 3962 .
Thanks Selise; now such info has to go out to all Union members so they can see that their leaders are bullshitting them about ‘hoping for improvements coming out of the conference reports.”
AND it brings me back to the question I have been posing in diaires; “why,oh why, given what has occurred in the Senate, does anyone think changes made in conference that would be positive get passed by the Senate?
Brilliant. I’ve been saying this all along: NO PUBLIC OPTION, NO MANDATE. Let’s up the drum beat.
There was an article on KOS about how liberals fail — really, really fail — at organization and messaging. We can’t do much about the organization at this twelfth hour, but we can work on the messaging. Let’s co-opt the teabagger argument and put together a TV ad buy expressing the horrorshow that the mandate would be (we can put in a little blurb about why it WOULD be good with a REAL plan, but make the heavy-hitting “Harry and Louise” part about how a mandate with no real cost controls would decimate the poor and middle class).
Ed Schulz taking Axelrod apart (again) right now.
i think — but at this point that’s not worth much — that’s the version from about a month ago that is supposed to be subject to amendment, but instead is being subject to behind the scenes deal making?
Ed has Howard on right now.
yes.
i have no idea. house rules are hard enough, senate rules make me crazy.
thank you. i’m guessing that dean has someone leaking him info on the behind the scenes deal making? but that’s just wild speculation. i’m feeling pretty lost, prefer to be more on top of things and right now i’m just not.
Jon,
I don’t know if you’re being paid to post here.
Please be advised my brain functions as to its own accord.
selise,
If I understand correctly what you seem to be implying I think you’re way off to think that Dean is participating in the kabuki.
I’ve watched Dean long enough to know that he doesn’t do that.
Do you remember some of the reasons why he was out as DNC chair after Obama got elected?
The Bad is also an enemy of the Good
A mandate without a serious public option is political suicide!
The republican party will ride the mandate all the way to the white house then strip it out to satiSfy the people while at the same time adding something in the back door to satisfy the insurance companies!
As long as there is a mandate, it is win win for the republican party.
Who here is ready to eat shit?
If Harry Reid had a Knife in his Back & a Dick up his Ass,,,
He’s scream “Deeper”
that is not what i meant at all (although i suppose, sigh, i shouldn’t rule it out). i was just speculated on where dean is getting his info, and if he has a source, or sources, on the inside of the behind the scenes negotiations, then good on them too.
You are making way too much sense.
all amendments that might be adopted in the Senate would be amendments to the pending bill, which is H.R. 3590. Everything Dean objects to is printed in H.R. 3590 already. Dean is not raising objections to new secret behind-the-scenes proposals, he is objecting to what is in the printed bill.
Everybody is getting “leaks” about the closed-door negotiations, which is why all newspapers and blogs know that Liebershit killed the watered-down public option and Medicare buy-in, those two changes were put on the table in the closed-door negotiations over the Manager’s Amendment. So Dean doesn’t become “part of the Kabuki” if Dean gets leaks about the closed-door scheming, everyone is getting those leaks.
It’s budget reconciliation conference reports that cannot be filibustered, but are subject to the Byrd amendment. Byrd amendment waivers can be filibustered. That’s why the reconciliation process gets wrapped around the axle.
Dean works for a lobbyist. Don’t remember the name but I’ll see if I can find it. Jane sez the veracular name for what Dean is doing is yo-yo.
The signature progressive achievements of the last century, Social Security, Medicare, and Civil Rights, were accomplished by passing less that optimum legislation and then incrementally improving it. In many instances, the incremental improvements came with Congressional majorities that were slimmer than passed the foundational legislation.
This half measure halting process is maddening, but this is how our constitutional system was designed to work.
opposition to the loathsome mandates is allowed by message disciplined frontpagers now?
better late than never, I suppose.
Jane on Ed Show right now!
Bullshit,,, They can hold up Obama’s War funding
For my patients to live, the Senate bill must die.
Jane is bitch-slapping Lanie Davis!
“What’s up with that.”
Whoa, this is good, he’s hammering her for posting “black face”.
“Jane is fucking great.. Go get that Ass Lanie!! Truth to power.
I have an answer to that statement that they want to lock us into an inadequate bill.
No, the enemy of the excellent appears your inadequate.
I just called these 2 organizations.
Omaha Steaks 800 228 2778
Nebraska Beef Council 800-421-5326
and told a person in both organizations, one a beef seller and the other an organization that promotes Nebraska beef that
I communicate with thousands of people on the net and that
UNLESS their CEOs get Senator Ben Nelson to get all Anti abortion language out of the health care bill they can forget me doing business with them and also forget about me buying Nebraska bred beef at the Supermarket which I will make sure that the local Supermarket does not sell.
Now it appears your turn to call them.
Thank you.
http://www.democratz.org
and spread the word please.
Demand congress fix the prescription drug benefit
go here http://bit.ly/drug_benefit
Send a message to traitor Joe Lieberman demanding he help enact a strong single payer public option into law.
http://bit.ly/traitorjoe
Send this message wide and far. Thank you.
Jane reaming Lanny Davis for hiding his PhRMA clients. Or PhRMA clients of his law firm.
ROCK ON, JANE!!!!!
She is kicking Lainie WhatsHisFace, and just pointed out how many pharmaceutical companies pay him money as a lobbyist. Now the jerk is engaging in major ad hominem attacks on Jane because thoroughly PWNED him.
Then he has the gall to accuse her of “personalizing” the argument.
i completely disagree with jane on that one. first, because single payer doesn’t “undermine the entire infrastructure of the medical industrial complex.” second because i don’t think it makes any sense to pre-compromise not only before congress had taken up the issue but before obama was even elected. third because part of laying the ground work is social movement politics and that means putting the spotlight on the issue every chance you get (ie don’t take the issue off the table for even discussion/debate for over a year). and fourth because hcan was a con.
i’m sorry progressives got punked by dem party insiders, but i do think that’s what happened.
Jane on ED – FANTASTIC !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
hat tip to Jane on Ed Show.
Lannie davis looks more and more like the worm we have come to know.
He cant answer the substantive question.
Lainie Davis is showing himself to be a colossal ASS. Jane pointed out his FINANCIAL CONFLICT OF INTEREST. That is NOT an ad hominem attack. Jane’s info was relevant because his conflict of interest undermines his credibility.
He complains about personal attacks…then talks about Jane wearing black face. How is that not a personal attack????
GOOD WORK JANE!!!!
Republiklan conservatives do not believe in Freedom. They believe in FIEFDOM for their corporate cartel friends and Freedumb for their rabble middle class teabaggers.
I had a boss one time that use to say, “If you don’t have the time to do it right, what makes you think you’ll have the time to do it over.”
This bill is turning into a GOLDEN EGG for the S&I Insurance industry with very few “real” reforms. The “No-Pre-existing conditions” reform just means the S&I Insurance will take you, but CAN charge you whatever they like. All the “reforms” in the bill come with S&I Insurance loopholes. Then on top of it, there’s the GOLDEN EGG of another 31 million
suckers….errr new policy holders the S&I Insurance companies get tosqueeze…..errrrr service.This bill stinks. It’s all give on the part of Americans, and all take on the part of the S&I Insurance industry.
No Public Option, No Medicare buy in, NO INDIVIDUAL MANDATES!
If you’re going to trim the bill, trim it on both sides!
Here’s the link.
Jane, Jane, Jane – it just can’t get any better. Thank you!
I can’t imagine there being a time anytime soon where the Democrats have more power.
If the idiots running the party (i.e. Rahm, etal) don’t get a clue PDQ, seats will be lost in 2010 and 2012, quite possibly including the one at 1600 Pennsylvania Ave.
REtards.
i’m glad you’re not blaming me for killing your patients.
but i still think, even when they aren’t aimed at me, accusations of murder are over the top. at least without some detail about what specifically about the senate bill is going to kill your patients?
He was talking about the picture Jane posted on Huff Post with Leibershitz in black face and big dog in shades.
The truly disturbing thing is the Republicans. This bill is so tempting to them right now I feel like someone walking past a coiled rattlesnake. Sooner or later they are gonna flip and it will be the progressives who will die from the venom. There is no way Obama is this naive. I absolutely do not want the President to have the power to decide on this mandate…period. It is time to run this viper over in the street before it gets in the house.
Just caught the tail end of that Lanny Davis filibuster, what a disgrace. I am also sick of this 30mil people will now be insured talking point, forcing someone to buy insurance does not necessarily make them insured. Next let’s mandate homes for the homeless and food for the hungry.
please see my @32. was making no implications re kabuki or anything neg. was just speculating about source of info.
I have never said this or anything like this before (I’m highlighting how important what I’m going to say is, and how impressed I am):
Just now JANE HAMSHER, on The Ed Show, hit a home run. She rocks! She speaks for me and everyone I know (that’s a lot of people). She kicked Lanny Davis into a stuttering, blithering mASS of displaced non sequitors.
BRAVA, Jane! May others scrutinize a clip of that and learn how to (finally) push back and march opposition back into obscurity.
Jane did a pretty good job filibustering her damn self.
Appreciate the post sentiment, but fork that! The PO was a compromise.
No more beginning from a compromised position… please!
Single payer.
excellent! thank you (and to everyone giving the play by play) will look forward to the youtube.
Can someone please throw the Ed-Jane segment up on the Internets Machine? I love seeing pompous assholes like Lanny Davis get bitch-slapped…
Thanks.
Hot Dayam…! Jane and Laura…! It almost wasn’t a fair fight with either Davis or Istook…! Bwhahaha…! Go Gurlz…! *g*
time for pizza. later, pups…..
It’ll take a while for it to get up.
Yeah I caught the end of it, all I saw was Lanny making personal attacks and not answering anyone’s questions. Why does he get asked to be on anything? Might as well just read a statement put out by the DLC or some other centrist group, oh and throw in some spurious arguments for that Lanny flavor.
just signed up to web site. young lady on Ed’s show wow she let Lanny Davis have it I think im in love
thank you
I meant with in the health care debate itself
Just watched Jane on Ed Show. YEEEEEE HAW AND HOOTY HOOOOOOO JANE! YOU ROCK!
Go Jane! Awesome job taking on Lanny Davis! You did your homework.
You didn’t let him knock you off message with his race-baiting and he kept squirming, he came off looking like the weasel he is and never ‘fessed up.
Keep ‘em squirming!
Now THAT’S what I call MUST SEE TV!!
That smarmy Lanny Davis was completey unprepared for some ACTUAL ACCOUNTABILITY!
HOME F—- RUN,JANE!
Knocked it outta da park,babe!
Yea, it was nasty from jump street. Jane said her piece and then knuckle head started. I must say Jane talked right over him and that lit it up. I’m not saying she was wrong, just givin you the play-by-play as I saw it.
We need just one BIG HUGE pool (group in insurance talk) of all Americans to really spread the risk. Then we need one BIG HUGE insurance carrier (Not-For-Profit)to handle provider payments.
I think they call that Medicare for ALL AMERICANS. Single Payer is the only way to go. No silly(life threatening) games by insurance companies, no pre-existing conditions, no dropped coverage. Just a Single Payer. Simple really!
We need to put a stake in the heart of the predatory, obsolete, yearly S&I Insurance industry. Let it go the way of the Buggy Whip and Slide Rule industries!
I thought it was brilliant that Jane called out Lanny’s ‘street cred’ from the outset…! Had him reeling from thereon…! ;-)
Predictably, DLCer Davis avoids answering by smearing, while he accuses Jane of smearing.
Another Davis clone in the media, David Gergen is on CNN right now scolding Franken for not allowing traitor Lieberman a couple more minutes.
Do they hatch these folks in the same place? It’s bad when Democrats are strong and heroic when Republicans are.
Go, Jane!!!
Jon Walker,
I’m really surprised at you. For someone who understood risk adjustment as well as you did this post about killing the individual mandate makes ZERO sense.
You want to compare the state of NJ and MA in cost? NJ is increasing cost at about 20% per year (and insurers are paying 85% on average towards claims) and MA is increasing at 10%. You know why the difference? The mandate. MA has 97% coverage, NJ 85%. The healthy are staying out of the market in NJ and that’s driving costs.
Oh and Ed has no idea what he’s talking about. He just asked about how much it will cost to have insurance commissioners in every state to regulate insurers because of the new laws. Does he not realize every state already has insurance commissioners? Again, idiots galore leading the charge.
And WHAT are YOUR creds, may I ask?
Without the mandate it seems like this might be a better bill. If you consider that there are subsidies for those 400% over the PL and they would still need to opt into the system to get that help. Insurance companies would be forced to offer a product that is worth those people entering the market. If there is a mandate, then what’s really to stop big insurance from setting a rate that takes into account the subsidy PLUS what they think is the set maximum that a family will pay? IN essence its harder to bilk the voluntary than the involuntary.
I will be happy to be your friend on FB *smile* and I just stole your line for my email..thanx
Clinton got us NAFTA, cut deficits on the backs of the lower and middle class, blew up the tech bubble.
Bush, among all other things ballooned the deficits with tax cuts to his base (but not exclusively his). Who’ll pay for those tax and war induced deficits, you ask?
Here comes Obama to answer that question. YOU will. The rules are rigged by both parties for the benefit of the upper class. Nothing more complicated than that.
Jane should clone herself. Davis was swallowing hard, his heart was racing, he got pwned with a devastating set of FACTS. And almost all the democratic Senators are equally bought and paid for.
Money out of politics. It’s not speech, it’s legal bribery!
Yea, and if they do as good a job as this jackass Oxendine in Georgia does, good luck with that bullshit.
Kirk,
Kill your patients.
It’s the right thing to do.
Just googled it…that was pretty messed up. Never the less, Jane’s points on Davis’ conflicts of interest — which he would never have disclosed on his own — remain every bit as relevant, valid, and compelling.
He is a shill for Big Pharma, as he derives income from the profits his firm earns from Big Pharma clients.
(Stay away from the blackface stuff, Jane. I see what you were trying to say, but it’s such a loaded image, it’s impossible to divorce it from its racist historical context.)
I am soooo angry at all this. Ed Schultz is right on target noting that it is becoming clearer and clearer that Obama has sold us out. Olberman really said it all last night very well. I think Cenk’s diary over at KOS today really nailed it… go reconcilliation with a medicare for all simple bill, which the repugs have done 23 times recently to ram stuff through. Randi Rhodes was all over this today on her show…
Just thought I’d convey what I just sent to the whitehouse.gov/comment feedback site…had to get some of the anger off my chest…they say “we want to hear from you”… well they got a few choice words…
“Howard Dean is RIGHT ON! So is Ed Schultz and Keith Olberman! Put in medicare for all through reconciliation and you can dig your way out of your perceived SELL OUT of all us who believed in you. Cenk Uger had a great post on Daily Kos today re: medicare for all… THAT’S WHAT WE WANT!!! DO IT!!! NOW!!! otherwise, you and your weak as_ed party are history… not to mention the country, and given what they’re gonna do to global warming initiatives, the whole human race. YOU HAVE CHILDREN!!! How can you sell them out too??? This world will be safe for no one if you don’t start standing up! I feel like joining the teabaggers!!! (can’t believe I’d even say that…) GROW A PAIR… and you will go down in history as saving the world…keep this up and you’ll be the destroyer of all things worthwhile.
peace…”
Well, that’s my rant…
what’s the comparison in MA pre and post mandate?
OMG – Jane was fantastic on Ed’s show! Uncle Lanny was shocked when Jane blew his cover and told Ed that Lanny’s working for Big Pharma. Damn, that is how it’s done.
I did groan when said that…! However, the vast majority of the individual State’s Insurance Commissioners, are toothless tigers…! How do you think AIG grew ‘Too Big Too Fail’…?
This state to state nonsense doesn’t even pass the laugh test, I’m really surprised it has even survived this long.
State Insurance Commissioners will not have jurisdiction of insurance companies based in say, Texas or Alaska; should either state elect to become the Delaware of health care to their credit card company empire with lax regulation and taxation.
I can’t wait until I have to fight denial of services with a company in Mississippi or Arkansas.
The race to the bottom continues.
My hope is that it’s not already too late to fix this bill or at least make it palatable. I’ve gone from angry, to betrayed, to total apathy, but when I see others, most notably Howard Dean, really standing up for average Americans it at least makes me feel that there’s still a dog in this fight.
What I don’t get is why there aren’t more liberal groups out there fighting this fight. I’m a long time lurker here so I know about the “veal pens” but who’s to say that other liberal interests won’t get the same treatment later on? I mean will EFCA pass past the 10 or so conservadems in the senate? Not to mention that a lot of issues will not have reconciliation as a possible out.
Want a rant?
Jesus. Got back from Viet Nam in September 1972.
Cut me off. I’m pissed.
So why do we have Obama? Tell me.
I’m still pissed. But you don’t have to give a shit.
September 72, damn man, you must be young!
I have to disagree. The best way to fix it is to EMBRACE the MANDATE.
It appears to me that the health care mandate is a brilliant piece of thinking by the insurance companies to address their problem of a declining customer base, caused by the rapid and un-affordable rise in Health care costs. It’s also coupled with using the IRS as the Health Care Insurance’s collection agency, another brilliant move.
You could believe I’m being sarcastic, and that is one interpretation. A second is that the Health Insurance Companies have used their power to prop-up their business model, and they have very intelligent employees, who have devised this solution.
This is a brief proposal for a private, non-profit, Mutual Insurance Company. We thought we’d name it Mutual Health, with a brand name of “The Public Option”, which is a very well publicized well regarded name currently, and enjoys widespread recognition as a “Good Brand.”
This new company would compete with current Health Insurance Companies.
To build this company we’d ask progressives and others to contribute their labor for free, as people who write Linux and other open source software for free, as a huge portion of any insurance company today is its IT systems.
This would require somewhat of a change in progressive thinking to embrace the “mandate” in the Health Care Reform and co-opt it for our common good. The mandate has the power to remove sales and marketing costs from Health Insurance Companies, a significant saving that could be passed on to policy holders.
I write this a little tongue in cheek, because if progressives came out in favor of the mandate, I’d estimate Senator Lieberman would be offering to filibuster it within a week.
Is this feasible? Is it worth exploring? Would the progressive caucus embrace it?
Randy Rhodes has been sounding like a rabid Obamapologist and Democratic party hack. So, your comment is surprising.
That’s gonna be the new catch phrase.
OT to fuckno. left you replies (here and here)
I always think of a two faced, two headed leprechaun when I think of Lieberman…
agree.
I am young.
Born 11/9/1945.
i’m a business owner in NJ that was forced because of 25% increases every year for the last 5-10 to offer my employees an HSA and pay as much of their deductibles as I can afford. Costs are choking us and very little in this bill helps this. I have 10 employees and the three healthiest employees dropped from paying their 25% of the cost when we switched and now go without coverage. I’m a member of a business community that debates topics like this and this is VERY prevalent in NJ.
Who are you BTW?
Damn Bro, you are 5 years older than me, 11/10/1949 and I came home 9/3/69. The day Ho died.
i want to say it was 91% but i’m honestly not 100% certain. When i researched it NJ is dropping like a stone because of everything required to be covered (which is a good thing) but very little cost controls which is bad. At some point business owners like myself can’t afford this and to stay in business anymore. The politicians had the opportunity to address cost with each sector (insurers, pharma, docs, hospitals) but chose to not on each one. THey’re all being handed 30+ million new customers and they should be forced to cut costs for getting those customers. That’s negotiation 101 and the congress and administration failed miserably.
III Corps?
If I notice one of the tires on my car is low and I just figure the hell with it I’ll fix it later, any number of things can happen. I can have a blow out and kill myself or someone else, I can have a flat tire and be stranded, I can be stranded and have a deranged psycho kill me, or be eataen by wild animals. The point is nothing good comes from the fix-it-later strategy,
If I hear one more damn time “don’t let perfect become the enemy of good” I’m gonna hurt somebody. Who the hell ever said this corporate welfare for insurance companies was “good”?
“I call on all those whose conscience urges them to fight, to use the only weapon that will be left to us if this bill becomes law. We must not buy federally mandated insurance if this cheesy counterfeit of reform is all we can buy.”
“No single payer? No sale.
No public option? No sale.
No Medicare buy-in? No sale.”
“I am one of the self-insured, albeit by choice. And I hereby pledge that I will not buy this perversion of health care reform. Pass this at your peril, Senators, and sign it at yours, Mr. President.”
“I will not buy this insurance.
Brand me a lawbreaker if you choose.
Fine me if you will.
Jail me if you must.”.”__Keith Olbermann, December 16, 2009
This worries me more than anything you can imagine. It’s not just the rising cost of care/policies but the sum total of the effect that will have on the greater economy. Lower wages, forced to lay off, possibly cut benefits, and all the while every other small business is doing the same. How many people are just trying to stay afloat both in the business and personally right not that all it will take is another hit to the economy to really make this the Great Depression part 2? I’m thinking there might be another “hit” to the retain and entertainment sectors once Christmas sales come in way under projections.
III and IV, Signal Unit with shots scattered all over the delta, Dong Tam, Can Tho, Vihn Long, Sa Dec how bout you?
Hear, hear!!!
I am so sick to death of that ridiculous canard.
“Don’t let the perfect be the enemy of the good.”
Okay, but counter-consensual rectal invasiveness is the enemy of the tolerable.
What say you, O capitulating a-testicular Democrats?
Sounds like a plan to me (Jon’s proposal, that is).
There are different tiers or groups of spokespersons that the cable networks go to for comments when they’re putting together these segments. Depending on who appears, you can get a pretty good sense of where the administration (Obama) or the political party leadership stands on an issue.
I think it’s fair to say that the Obama administration and the faction pushing this Senate bill is majorly on the defensive, and don’t want to put a Democratic politician’s face on it, to defend it or to front it, because the only people defending it on the air is Obama’s political hack, David Axelrod, and Lanny Davis, the paid whore (lobbyist) from PhRma.
The backlash coming at Democratic politicians from their constituents, fueled by the fury from the base, has got to be huge. To hide as they’re doing means they are scared. But not enough to do the right thing. Yet.
So when you see Lanny Davis on any show, know it’s because you, we, have Democratic politicians listening and frightened.
i agree with you (except maybe about the mass to nj comparison – possibility for confounding factors). i live in MA, and fwiw (not much) my experience is that the year the mandates were implemented, my premiums did not increase and i got prescription drug coverage added. so that was a great year. since then, increases in premiums every year (i think on the order of what we were seeing pre mandate, but should get more info on that).
It’s like the MSM mantra now. I think I’ve heard it no less than four times from as many sources today alone. “perfect be the enemy of the good” would be a pithy and accurate statement if one assumes that the outcome actually is “good.”
What’s surprising here is the level of hubris and greed in the industry. I mean they really are just trying to clean house and gut everything that’s the least little bit fair. They seem totally unafraid of any backlash to this kind of hosing. Then again we wouldn’t be at this point if people in these companies would have shown even the slightest bit of restraint and care for the commonweal.
You guys should see the comments on President Obama’s facebook page. A mushroom cloud of Progressive Rage is rising from the comments.
never really did the math on that, but it makes total sense. The few senators you do see are all about projecting calm and letting the process play out, but I have been seeing a lot more water carrying from unelected people in the past week.
III Corps.
Tay Ninh. Cu Chi. Bien Hoa. An Loc. Loc Ninh. Vung Tau. Long Binh. Saigon. Places in between.
Adrenalin. God give it to me and let me deal with it.
Goldman Sachs has anticipated the needs of small business owners.
Here’s an excerpt that may be of interest(maybe not)…but its worth a look,especially considering that they put this together way back in July.
I will post a link downthread.
And no, I DON”T work for Goldman.*G*
Blackstone, Goldman Sachs, Credit Suisse and ING Launch Independent Insurance Group
Posted by Alex Finkelstein 07/07/09
(NEW YORK, NY) — Already among the behemoths of the real estate capital industry, The Blackstone Group, Goldman Sachs, ING and Credit Suisse are branching out into a new field – insurance.
The companies today jointly announced the formation of Insphere Insurance Solutions, Philip J. Hildebrand, a nationally known health industry executive, is CEO of the new group.
Philip J. Hildebrand
Hildebrand says that as one if its initial solutions, Insphere Insurance Solutions plans to have a marketing agreement with ING.
Hildebrand says Insphere Insurance Solutions expects to be the largest independent career agent insurance distribution group in America, with a force of 3,500 agents and offices in over 40 states when the company commences services in 2010.
This new company expects to be the nation’s largest independent career agent distribution group offering life, health, long-term care and retirement products for small businesses and the middle-income market.
Medicare for some over 55 doesn’t make it.
We had it right the first time with Medicare for all. There’s room for insurance companies in that. Single payer doesn’t put the insurance industry out of business. It lets them profit from boutique services and extras that the richest among us require but aren’t necessary for normal humans, such as hotel suites for surgical recovery after tummy tucks.
Blackstone, Goldman Sachs, Credit Suisse and ING Launch …Blackstone, Goldman Sachs, Credit Suisse and ING Launch Independent Insurance Group. Alex Finkelstein. Posted by Alex Finkelstein 07/07/09 3:06 PM EST …
http://www.realestatechannel.com › US Markets › Commercial Real Estate – Cached
selise,
We’re mostly on the same track, thanks for all the linkies!
If you go back to all the few threads re. Coppenhagen, and count the comments left behind, – you could not, in all honesty say that Climate Change, relative to it’s immense importance, has not been largely orphaned by FDL.
Sometimes my frustrations and a sense of grotesque disbelief get the better of me…
cheers.
We had guys up on the Black Virgin and at Electric Strawberry HQ.
i can support that compromise if it’s first dollar coverage. (next time let’s start with “VA for all” so “medicare for all” can be the compromise)
thanks. (i can understand the frustration)
Yep. Nui Ba Dinh.
Didn’t know about Electric Strawberry HQ.
Cu Chi, we called the 25th the Electric Strawberry.
25th
Yeah, I know.
The 25th Infrantry Division.
They protected me. Kept me alive.
you this.
I was an animal. My goal was to live.
When I came back, I came back to a foreign country.
I was a stranger.
Sure I don’t have to tell
CHRIS MATTHEWS JUST SAID WE AREN’T REAL DEMOCRATS, WE ARE JUST PEOPLE WHO LIKE TO COMPLAIN!!!! He said we don’t vote. WTF??????????????????
Does ANYBODY have an email address for Matthews or his boss at MSNBC??????
I am late 40’s and have voted in every presidential election since I turned 18 and I am reading FDL and contributing money because I care about my fellow residents who DONT have insurance/ can’t afford it/ can’t get it due to pre-existing conditions.
I’M GONNA TO GET A STROKE IF I DON’T CALM DOWN BUT HE OWES US ALL A HUGE APOLOGY, WHAT AN IGNORANT SLAP IN THE FACE.
The argument that this bill should be accepted and fixed later is precisely the problem with the progressive movement.
We’re all in the same fight, toiling away toward whatever good it is we seek when we hit a wall of obstruction and the inevitable spectre of compromise rears its head.
The same thing happens every time. The compromise–no matter how crappy and counterproductive–always splits progressives into two groups: the “don’t let the perfect be the enemy of the good” crowd and the “let’s fight for something better, even if we lose” crowd.
For once, just for once, I humbly ask the first group to stick to their guns a little longer and try, try to keep progressives in a cohesive bloc to demand more.
Didn’t we see from round one of this fight that the Progressive Caucus was the only reason the PO got as far as it did? That was because progressives stuck together and made a demand.
I like it!
A super leaky individual mandate and barring illegal immigrants from buying insurance leaves you with only 93% coverage. The individual mandate only make sense if the tax credits are high enough to make it affordable to everyone and you let everyone buy in.
Roger that, they have no idea what they are sowing now.
“Give me this now, so I won’t have to deal with it in a mid-term election year, and we’ll fix it later.” Sounds like a used car salesman. Why is it Obama is so much better negotiating with his devoted, health care needy base than he is with other politicians and corporate CEO’s.
What actually show some spine?! The problem is that the left, or at least the elected left, pre-bargains. They think, oh this will never happen, don’t push for it at all, and then cut it out without even being asked to do so. They just cough up bargaining chips without getting anything in return. I think I would just settle for Drawing a line in the sand, pushing for it hard, and then going to the table and hashing out a deal. Instead we get death by 1000 cuts, all self inflicted.
The problem isn’t entirely with electeds. There have been some arguing here and on other more Silver or orange blogs that we have the moral imperative to take this “compromise” bill because it will help some people who really need it.
Well, it will help some people who really need it. But by settling for such a low bar, continually…again and again and again, we have hurt the progressive movement. We have been used and abused and continually burned by the other side because we accept deals like this one because it will help some people.
Taking compromises like this one weakens us. It sucks our power.
Well it certainly sucks out the motivation to lift a finger in the future. You know there is something noble about being willing to compromise, provided that you do it from a position or strength and confidence. That’s what’s so sickening atm, where is Obama? where is that forceful voice (elected)?
I loathe the Dubs as much as the next guy, but he at least fought for his hairbrained ruinous policies. We can’t even be bothered to show passion for something thats actually right.
Thanks to you and Powwow for reposting that info . . . I’ve been looking for details on how this process works, and how the WHOLE process works . . that link and comment sealed a lot of holes for me.
‘Preciate that!
I completely agree: if no public option, then no mandate. That has got to be the next mantra. The mandate is what the insurance cos want in exchange for some regulations which may or may not be enforced. It’s all pretty wishy-washy right now, but it’s worth a try to get some strong regulations imposed on the insurance cos. Why not try to withhold the mandate in exchange for some really important reforms/regulations.
And btw, Jane was brilliant against Lanny Davis on the Ed Show. Perfect straight face against all that blahblahblah on his side. How did you not crack up? I wish I had that talent.
Great stuff, thanks for sharing.
I’m confused, what is the HR Bill the Senate ‘amendment’ is attached to?
Did you mean to say HR 3962 is the bill, or that HR3962 is the House bill that’s passed for healthcare reform, the one with Eshoo and Stupak?
“Do you remember some of the reasons why he was out as DNC chair after Obama got elected?”
I’ve never really heard what happened, but I have always thought Rahm got him booted so Rahm could have more control over the DNC?
Art, ya seem testy . .
KILL THE FUCKING BILL!!!!
Our passion to do what is right is what always leads to compromise. The right uses that against us. Every time.
I’d bet Dean has sources inside . . . and he’s fighting hard it seems, even though he flipped flopped LAST week, and is now back to the good side . . .
I think he’s pissed, and has been pissed at DNC removal and is finally starting to get and gain some traction to fight back, and healthcare is the point issue for him.
To those who advocate Dean/Franken for ’12 may I suggest Franken is too green in general politics for the VP slot in ’12, and we need him desperately in the Senate.
My dream ticket would be Dean and Elizabeth Warren . . . Dean strong on politics, political maneuvering and political process, Warren a WIZARD at reform for banking/finan and able to help ALL reforms including HCR and more.
I like the idea, no no more giving up something for nothing. It looks like things may be looking up. Despite Sen. DeMint’s threat to steal Christmas, it looks like Sen. Reid may , that’s right may, deliver after all.
http://thehill.com/homenews/senate/72813-demint-promises-to-delay-healthcare-and-force-christmas-eve-vote
Fractal you’ve been a fountain of info today in a few threads, just want to thank you for all you’ve shared.
My fears for the past couple of weeks is that the Senate passes shit legislation (as is on pace to do). If Harry can’t get 60 votes to do so, then he goes reconciliation and uses 51 votes to get it.
Then the House/Pelosi sets up a Committee and adopts the Senate bill, effectively killing HR 3950, and THAT final Senate version is sent directly to Obama for signing.
All without debate, reconciliations in the House, or conferencing in both or by both Chambers.
Is my fear a valid one, procedurally speaking? Is it legally possible?
Why would Dean Yo Yo? Just to stir up shit? Keep progs distracted? He’s really bought out, fully, by the corps?
I love the history hoss, but it’s sadly no longer relevant to our present sitch where the corporate feudalist overlords have such a death grip over the politicians one and all at every level . . .
There will BE no improvements over the decades if shit HCR is passed at this point. Only a further eradication of any sense of reform for HC, and of course that’s the link to tackling elimination of Medicare/Medicaid and the privatization of Social Security.
We live in greatly different times, we cannot expect ANY further improvements, in anything, if we lose this on HCR.
The history is accurate, and lovely, but it’s no longer relevant to our present sitch.
YMMV. *shrugs*
Bless ya, and your patients, too . . . .
No big deal, he just turned sixty-four, today I think. He always gets excited when he sees someone like Jane eating Lanny Davis’ lunch on the preceding show. Nervous much, Chris?!
Funny about that real Democrat thing, I don’t remember sharing hot dogs with him over 55-gallon drums in the late seventies at the steel mill picket line.
That was after I served my enlistment instead of expanding my horizons in the Peace Corps like some lucky stiffs.
And:
If I don’t see some spine, you’re going to see some spittle!
Cut you off from what?
Clinton also filled the river bank under the bridges with sick & dying homeless folks.
Obama must maintain Bubba’s legacy.
devil worship site has JH / LD video
http://www.mofopolitics.com/2009/12/17/video-psychotic-lesbian-america-hater-jane-hamsher-attacks-liberal-wacko-lanny-davis/
This is the perfect strategy for progressives. There is no great demand to pass the mandate now since it would not kick in till after the next presidential election. Pulling thye Mandate would make the bill neutral rather than damaging. It is the right way to go.
The Dems assume they will get another “bite at the Apple” and fix this turdful bill down the road. But that’s a BIG assumption and at the rate things are going, the Dems will be back in the minority faster than Tiger’s girlfriends are running to the tabloids. That’s why it was so vital to get it right or as close to right the first time around.This bill sucks. All, not just one or two, but all of the major reforms that would have made a difference in increasing access AND reducing the cost of healthcare have been removed from the bill. That’s like asking a person who’s had his heart, kidneys and lungs removed to be grateful because at least they got to keep their spleen. Look at Mass and see what mandated health insurance with no cost controls or competition has wrought. It’s a mess and many people are NOT getting the care they need because they can’t afford the co-pays and deductibles on top of the ever rising premiums. Hospitals in Mass are going bankrupt because the state shifted the burden of caring for the poor to them.Some hospitals are suing the state to try and recover some money. In the meantime, premiums are rising there at about 15% a year-Mass has some of the highest premiums in the country. This bill is a big, fat subsidy to the insurance companies. Dean is right. It needs to die. Obama lied to us.Dems will pay in 2010. What a missed opportunity!! Obama had that magic moment when he could have moved mountains. Instead, he busied himself with mole hills like bipartisanship and Joe Lieberman. The magic is gone, folks and so has Obama’s credibility.
One thing I haven’t seen adequately discussed here. A large part of the cost of the bill (on the order of $500 billion over the next decade) will be covered by Medicare cuts. $43 billion of these cuts come from projected Medicare spending on home health care services. My significant other is a home health care nurse (working as an independent). Currently, there simply is no fat to cut in the home health care system! There’s a nursing shortage, home health care nurses are underpaid, and it’s already difficult to find sufficient nursing staff for the patients.
I’ve also seen little discussion of one of the most draconian measures in the Senate bill. It sets up a permanent “Fed for Medicare” board to independently institute further Medicare cuts. These cuts could not be blocked – only tinkered with (i.e. reallocating what specific services are targeted for cutting) – by Congress. If a “tinkering” bill is not passed and signed by the President, the cuts mandated by the board go into effect automatically. And after 2020 Congress loses the power to even tinker with the cuts.
http://www.slate.com/blogs/blogs/kausfiles/archive/2009/11/19/does-harry-reid-s-health-care-bill-create-a-fed-for-medicare.aspx
Such a board, to cut Medicare, has been a wet dream on the Right for decades. And we’re handing it to them on a silver platter.
You don’t go far enough. Holding back the mandate is a good idea, but before you fight, you gotta stop rolling over.
First, reconciliation…51 votes. Nuclear? Tough shit. They had your chance.
Second, screw the public option. The public option IS NOW single-payer or “Medicare for All.”
Third, screw Republicans. I don’t care if they ever vote bi-partisan in their lives. They can rot in hell.
Fourth, anyone ELSE voting against single-payer, should face a pro-single-payer challenge in their next congressional primary.
Fifth, there should be Justice Department inquiries into Senators who ran on pro-health care reform, who received large health insuror campaign contributions, and who now are obstructing health care reform.
Sixth, bring up single-payer legislation EVERY year until it passes.
Seventh, if Republicans want to continue to filibuster, they’ll have to actually do so. Get out the cots and coffee and read the dictionary on C-Span if you want, but you can’t filibuster by just saying you are going to filibuster. Videotape the party of no at the height of their disfunctionality and play those tapes in their next election.
Eighth, WHEN Single-Payer passes, implement the law within the elected term of the sitting Democratic President so it can’t be co-opted, which it surely will if Republicans are in office.
I get Medicare, but my wife is 59 and has no insurance. Like KO, we choose to self-insure her. It would cost us about $8000/yr to insure her. Over six years (after which she’ll get Medicare) we’d pay out about $50K. We spend out-of-pocket an average of $500 per year for her health care, which would come to about $3000 over six years, if she remains healthy. There are no guarantees in life, but under the best-case and most likely scenario, we will come out roughly $47K ahead by self-insuring. Obviously, it’s possible our gamble with backfire, but we have mapped out contingenies for dealing with various levels of healthcare expenses for her, should it become necessary. Since she is a fitness fanatic, a vegetarian, never drinks or smokes, and has no pre-existing conditions, she is exactly the kind of customer the insurance companies expect to profit from. Generally, what’s good for the insurance companies is bad for a customer. Since we pay for whatever care she needs, our lack of insurance puts no burden on anyone else to pay any part of her expenses. The individual mandate therefore is a very bad proposition for us. The products offered by the private insurance industry are such a bad buy for us that we’d take the tax penalty rather than purchase one of their products. What “spreading the risk” really means is forcing those people who maintain healthy lifestyles to share the greater average burden of healthcare of those who don’t. As with the mortgage bailout, the most responsible citizens would be forced to pay a penalty for the behavior of the least responsible.