On MSNBC, I was asked what I thought about Howard Dean’s call to kill the Senate bill.
I agree with him. From what we know about the bill, it is worse than passing nothing.
When urging its passage today, President Obama said two things that are manifestly untrue. He says that the bill fulfills all of the promises he made in his September speech before a joint session of Congress, but it doesn’t.
What the President said in September:
They will no longer be able to place some arbitrary cap on the amount of coverage you can receive in a given year or a lifetime.
But while nobody was looking, Harry Reid slipped in an “arbitrary cap on the amount of coverage you can receive in a given year”:
A loophole in the Senate health care bill would let insurers place annual dollar limits on medical care for people struggling with costly illnesses such as cancer, prompting a rebuke from patient advocates.
The President Obama also said that “what ever ideas exist in terms of bending the cost curve and starting to reduce cost for families, businesses, and government, those elements are in this bill.” Not true either.
As we speak, Frank Lautenberg and Kay Hagan are destroying Byron Dorgan’s drug reimportation amendment by making a bunch of bullshit claims about drug safety. The danger of transferring drugs from a CVS warehouse in Canada to a CVS store in the United States? Zip. But they’re pretending that everything is coming from Chinese counterfeiters to keep something that could save the government $19 billion and the public over $100 billion from passing so the White House deal with PhRMA can be upheld. The Dorgan amendment could have been a way of honestly bending the cost curve, something the President campaigned on.
Instead, the “bend” comes from taxing middle class insurance benefits, which makes them worse. According to the CSM report released last week:
In reaction to the tax, many employers would reduce the scope of their health benefits. The resulting reductions in covered services and/or increases in employee cost-sharing requirements would induce workers to use fewer services. Because plan benefit values would generally increase faster than the threshold amounts for defining high-cost plans (which are indexed by the CPI plus 1 percent), over time additional plans would become subject to the excise tax, prompting those employers to scale back coverage.
The cost curve gets “bent” by making the insurance you have through your employer worse. Remember Harry and Louise? They killed health care reform during the Clinton administration by making this claim. Well, now it’s actually going to be true.
Congratulations, President Obama. This is the “win” you’ve been working toward. Joe Lieberman kicks the entire Democratic party in the teeth and you thank him for it. He writes the bill, and you go on national TV and have to misrepresent what’s in it in order to find anything good to say.
And Ben Nelson isn’t even done working his Bart Stupak magic.
If I wanted Joe Lieberman writing a health care bill, I would’ve voted for John McCain.
Howard Dean is right. Kill LieberCare.



188 Comments








Support this site!
Subscribe to the newsletter
Advertise on Firedoglake
Send
us your tips
Make us your homepage
About FDL Action
You were right all along, Jane. America, R.I.P.
but wait, there’s more:
they want you to send him a Thank You card (h/t mui)
I already wrote to Specter and Casey to urge the same action, before I saw this post. It is what the Hedge Fund managers call a “POS.”
This is merely a handout to Obama’s future campaign contributors, as it stands now.
Amen Jane…!!! *g*
This is my very first posting on firedoglake. I waved goodbye to YEARS of being a Kossack, because of the major Obama trance-like spellbounded apologists and creepy worshippers. That site is no longer a progressive site. The leadership like Kos and mcjoan may still be, but it has been invaded and HIJACKED by centrists. I am connected to my personal House hero, Rep. Grijalva. He just now put on his main congressional page that he is following Howard Dean’s lead and going to try and kill the senate sell-out.
This is truly turning into a MAJOR civil war within the Democratic Party. Co-Chair of the progressive caucus in the House, Raul Grijalva just now issued a statement on his website that he is going to make every effort to kill the senate version because it does more harm than good. Basically, premiums rise as a gift to the insurance lobby with NOTHING…NOTHING for progressives. No PO, no Medicare buy-in, nothing!
Howard Dean is sort of a the progressive leader on health care issues and if HE says to kill the bill, then I think it should be killed. Let’s just start the fuck over and fuck 60 votes.
Grijalva is fighting the good fight for us on this. you can contribute to his re-election as a thank you by going to the site below. Be sure and tell him on the contact page on that site just WHY you are thanking him!!! He needs to know we have his back, as he has had ours!!! As I have stated, I am connected to the congressman and his office just told me he is PISSED to no end and WILL fight this bill and his goal is to start over and do what Dean has said and use only 51 senate votes for reconciliation.
http://www.grijalvaforcongress.com.
This has to be drummed into their Skulls, over and over … Obama, you won the frikkin’ election !
Oh, and Harry Reid, I hope you’ve got another job lined up …
Kill Bill. Allowing this to pass or to become the template upon which will be built a House-Senate final version, would strengthen entrenched corporate interests and make true reform considerably harder to achieve in the future. It’s exactly the tack Obama chose when he bailed out the banksters. It is exactly the tack he has taken in institutionalizing Bush’s torture, spying and secrecy excesses. It is the tack he is taking in escalating his war in Afghanistan.
Whatever he was, Mr. Obama is no longer a Democrat or Democratic President. He is a Liebermanite. This bill deserves no support. Neither do its sponsors. Just say no to it and them.
Yes, I did post this earlier, and yes, I know I’m probably violating blog etiquette here to post the same message twice. I’m really upset about this, and I’m sensing a runaway train here leading to disaster if we don’t just stop for a second and think.
Might Howard Dean be wrong?
Let me make clear that I think this deal is an unacceptable abomination. In fact, as a quick review of my postings last week when the Medicare buy-in entered the scene will reveal, I was not even that crazy about that either. I felt then, and continue to feel now, that the public option with the state opt-out was just about the limit progressives should have caved.
But what about conference?
I agree that there is a case to kill the bill in the Senate. Let’s think through what that means if we do it.
It will be the end of this bill. It means that the next attempt at reform will be from scratch. This political system can barely sustain one of these attempts once in every generation. So the question is have we done better than previous generations, and is that fact worth protecting?
So how about this: Yes, we call for the eliminaton of the individual mandate, thus stripping the bill of the biggest windfall for private insurance companies, one of the reasons why an insurance company lobbyist gleefully proclaimed “We win!” We might very well have conservative support for that, ironically enough, so Jane is right that that is worth doing and eminently doable.
Here’s the key: Other than stripping out the individual mandate, the Senate is now a lost cause. So let them pass their piece of shit, and we insist on conference. We insist that progressive Representatives stand by their position that the bill MUST force the insurance companies to compete with the public sector in order to keep down costs maintain quality.
If we kill this bill, then we will have let go to waste those House progressives who continue to insist on public sector competition with the private insurance companies in the bill before they can vote for it. That is why Howard Dean may be wrong. As long as there’s a chance that House progressives can exercise sufficient pressure to improve the product coming out of conference it is premature to be talking about killing this bill.
Obviously House progressives may cave; obviously they may betray us. But that hasn’t happened yet. Should we be really closing the door NOW to the possibility that those House progressives may yet save the day?
I think not. And I think, on reflection, that Howard Dean may come to the same conclusion.
Please, please, let’s think about this very carefully. Thank you.
But wait, Jane! Don’t you want until we see how the bill looks after they buy off Coathanger Nelson?
To Obama, Reid and all the rest of the Senate Democrats:
A simple truth – If you reward bad behavior (Lieberman), you will always continue to get bad behavior (Lieberman)!
No public option? Then no fookin’ deal!
The dems in the Senate have shot themselves in the base.
It’s so FUBAR now it only makes sense to scrap it and start over.
Today the fight begins … will Howard Dean & his supporters control the Democratic Party or will
HoJo & Co make the Dem Party into a shadow of the ReThug Party …
Kill Bill Volume III: The Saving Of Real Health Care Reform
Thank you Jane, I agree & will continue to support your efforts. By the way, I’d like to repeat, the ONLY way to force Joe L. to toe the line is to use Israel as an incentive or a club. It’s incredible that no one’s addressed this, it’s clearly the only issue he won’t sell for political points. My guess is Israel is at the heart of any game he’s been playing with the Obama team.
Might Howard Dean be wrong?
No.
I’m sure he’s well aware of this, fact. Now what?
If I’d wanted GOoPers running the country, I’d have voted for them.
Now I’m not at all sure I want Democrats running it, either.
They’re not rewarding bad behavior. The behavior isn’t seen as being “bad.”
Kill Bill. Agreed.
Now, how do we get it killed?
In the Senate: Burris is on the fence, so is Nelson. Also, God knows whether Lieberman will try further extortion, and there’s also the McCaskill threat. I’m assuming that Snowe is on board at this point, from her comments. But any single vote lost means insufficient votes to overcome the Republican filibuster even assuming Snowe crosses over, right? Assuming one vote of these is lost, how do we prevent Reid from using reconciliation to pass the Bad Bill?
In the House: Steny says its a go, but anyone know better?
Jane,
Am I free to re-print this?
Well……don’t get sick!!!
The quote that resonates with me for a while still.
Can progressive Senators kill the individual mandates now that any cost control has been axed. Do they have enough backbone to do that much? The managers mark is still open for negotiation. Killing the individual mandates should be the price for not killing the bill outright.
Which Senators in the Democratic caucus will step up to kill individual mandates.
Kill the bill, that would be the best outcome at this point.
At least it would let the rahmbama team know that they can’t just come up with any shit and successfully pressure congress to pass it.
It’s making my head spin how easily … and quickly the senate is rolled. Last week we had a bunch of senators saying that they would still vote for it BECOZ it had the medicare eligibility addition to it. Now, they are willing to pass it just to pass it it seems. And of course the pope of hope and his sidekick in deceit are pushing this nonsense that it has to be rushed through becoz it is almost Christmas. Why? Only becoz they want to do a drive-by passage on the american people b4 they wake up.
I’m kind of surprised that my favorite senator, Bernie Sanders, isn’t being more principled on this matter. I’m disappointed in him becoz I thought the medicare addition was the only thing that made it palatable to him. Maybe Dean’s rebellion will help him regain his bearings.
Z
NPR talking about Move-On protesters and about Lieb’s wife and Komen….
The only people who actually have the power to kill this monster is the House progressives. Period. Stop fucking obsessing over the senate. They WANT us to be obsessing over the senate so we let up on the House side. That part is OVAH!!!
Move on to lobbying the prog caucus members of the House. Stat.
yes
You guys are hopeless. We do agree that this bill should be killed but for entirely different reasons. But you don’t realize that if this bill is killed, you won’t get another chance for decades. The 2010 elections will eliminate any chance that you can get any kind of public option or single payer plan passed.
I love Joe Lieberman. At least we have a guy who has an open mind and does what he thinks is right, not necessarily what Harry wants him to do.
Kill the bill and please please get someone to go against obama in the primaries!
There is no way in hell I will pull the lever for him again after he sold out his base for 1 piece of garbage named Joe!
I hate to say it but Joe Wilson was rite, Obama is a liar. He campaigned on the public option and ect… ect…well you get the picture….
I’m with you all the way. Kill the Bill.
Awesome Jane. Awesome.
I’d say I love you, but guess me being an old fat guy and you being a young attractive woman that might seem… creepy?
Oh fuck it.
I love you Jane.
Permission for the litter to pee all over the newest paper.
I’m not sure I agree. We now know that the Senate will basically be decided by a single vote, against the inevitable rethug filibuster. That’s the first line of defense for us.
Tactically, we should first push to try to get the consumer mandate out in the Senate first. If we succeed (unlikely), we’ll essentially guarantee the opposition of at least two or three conservadems plus Snowe and Lieberman, which shuts this down.
If we can’t get the mandates out, then it’s all going to come down to how obstinate Burris can be or how obnoxious Nelson can be on abortion, etc. etc., and we may be able through clever advocacy to throw some wrenches into the process for one or the other.
The House is much tougher and really depends on the relative effectiveness of Steny’s whipping vs. whatever spine the Progressive caucus has left or we can help put into them. That’s the second line of defense.
I don’t know about you, but my House vote counting skills sure aren’t good enough to tell you definitively what the odds are, in an us vs. Steny battle for individual votes in the Progressive caucus.
We need to fight in both chambers if we want to have any confidence whatsoever in our ability to stop this trainwreck. And neither route is assured: it may get passed anyway.
Lot of royal *we* in your comment and has been shown *we* no longer matter.
I think we should lean on Burris, Sanders, Brown, Franken, and Kirk (Teddy’s stand-in) for starters. Force the progressives (and in Burris’ case those who hate Rahm) to take a stand for once in their lives.
This is exactly what i put on my sign in September at the New Orleans rally after Teddy Kennedy died.
If they pass this abomination the Dems will be losing their asses in the midterms. They are seriously deluded if they think they can survive passing a bill that increases costs while lowering the amount of benefits people get all at the same time mandating that we buy our insurance from monopoly insurance companies.
People know how bad this is going to be. Thanks to Jane I saw this coming in September.
Time to kill the bill and start talking single payer. Maybe then we can get a public option.
Oh and we all know that the Democratic caucus is a joke. They will lose the public quickly if they pass this. Very quickly.
“The [U.S.] Constitution is a limitation on the government, not on private individuals … it does not prescribe the conduct of private individuals, only the conduct of the government … it is not a charter for government power, but a charter of the citizen’s protection against the government.” –author and philosopher Ayn Rand (1905-1982)
“In questions of power, then, let no more be heard of confidence in man, but bind him down from mischief by the chains of the Constitution.” –Thomas Jefferson
Govt run healthcare is nothing more than govt mischief. This is not about any moral high ground from one side or the other..but about the preservation of the Constitution, period. This is a fight between the opression and tyrrany of socialism and freedom of the individual. I am that individual you are fighting, and I am determined to win.
Thank you Jane.
Changing our opinion doesn’t make us weak, especially when based on observation and rapidly changing circumstance. Glad to see Democrats willing to break ranks to call a toad a toad (and not a pony with warts.) Republicans would have slammed this through no matter how noxious, this gives me a glimmer of hope that we can eventually overcome.
What are our options now? Strip out the mandate and pass HCR lite? Kill the bill completely and wait for post-2010 congress? Or demand reconciliation and reinsert a robust PO?
Take out the mandates.
What part of the bill simply cannot go to reconciliation. Pass that part now and then pass the rest of it separately by reconciliation of 51 majority.
Can the Medicare buy-in be done by reconciliation?
BTW, welcome to the Lake! I gave up on DailyKos last year. You are among friends : )
You have fought a valiant campaign for genuine health reform, Jane. Thank you.
It takes a lot of courage and nerves to turn around and continue to fight against the nightmare that the dream of health care reform has become.
I certainly don’t have all the details of the current draft bill, but I sort of think on balance it may be okay if they take out the mandate. But who am I kidding? As long as they continue drafting in the Senate, it will keep getting worse and worse. If they go to conference, I expect it will still get worse.
They won’t stop until there is nothing left but a mandate; criminalizing abortion for poor women; and a new additional massive transfer of wealth from the poor and (what remains of) the middle class to insurance and pharma, ie Wall Street.
I think the Dems next move will be the nuclear option, so they can get this travesty passed. And set us up nicely for a Republican simple majority to wipe out Medicare and Social Security a year from now.
I’m more and more convinced that Barack Obama may be the first person for whom the presidency is not his ultimate goal, that it is merely a step to what he’s really aiming for: extreme wealth on Wall Street. Maybe he’ll run for reelection, but he would be happiest to lose, and immediately claim his richly-deserved reward from the banksters he has served so well.
A mandate without a public option is something my wife and I only thought we had to fear if a radical republican Like Palin ever took office..
Reconciliation? Are you crazy? That would guarantee that the Rep. will take over the house and senate. And then they can reverse all this “progressive” bullpelosi. If you want to stuff this bill down americas throats, they will get even. At the ballot box.
Liberals make up only 20% of the population. But I guess that doesn’t matter to you “progressives”.
Thank you, phred!!!!!!!!!!!
If they were willing to use the “nuclear” option, they wouldn’t have been caving on one issue after another.
The Senate bill is disappointing, but I don’t think killing it is where wisdom lies.
Social Security when enacted in 1935 was pitiful in its benefits and racist as hell. Similarly, Medicare when enacted in 1965 was far less than optimum. But, incremetally each program over time has improved. Unfortunately, that is how progressive change occurs in this country – in halting half measures.
Taking what is available and building on that is the way to go. Otherwise, the improvements offered by this legislation, as meager as some here believe them to be, might be a long time coming.
If LBJ were alive, he’d have the balls of Reid, Lieberman, Nelson and a whole host of others hanging over his mantle by now…
Call in an air strike on the Senate HC bill…
tis an excellant piece jane, one point;
I am not so certain lieberman is not working on behalf of the president just as is rahm
for instance, we know we had to pressure the president into saying he wanted a public option, and we had to pressure the dems into including it
we also know rahm has been out and about insisting on triggers
it’s just too convenient that joe is forcing on the president a bill that he would have written had the progressives not forced a progressive bill
and let’s not forget, obama pretty much insisted joe retain his leadership positions and chairs
they might be working good cop bad cop and we really have to look at that
reconciliation doesn’t help us at this point, peoples. We’ve lost this bill. It is now the Bad Bill and must be killed. Fixing it is no longer a political option, IMO. all reconciliation means is that it’ll make it easier for Reid et al to pass the the Bad Bill.
Yep.
I’ve known for some time that there’s only one party that will ever pull the nuclear option trigger. Only one has the spine too. And it ain’t the one currently in power.
Bush passed his economy-wrecking $2 trillion tax cuts for the rich through reconciliation. Stop being such wimps. ONly about 12 southern senators (if even those) would totally wipe out SS or Medicare. Even THOSE constituencies would rebel. C’mon, get a clue and stop being so damn afraid. Even Jefferson Davis Sessions (R-Confederacy) would lose his senate seat if he voted to eliminate BROADLY-based popular programs like Medicare and SS. Something like 85% of GOPers have favorable views of those programs. Again, stop being afraid and fight.
you have it backwards, the majority of this country are what you seem to call “liberal”
your definition of liberal is center and any polls where people claim they are center or right, when those same people are asked about policy positions they CLEARLY fall in what the concervative media tags as “liberal”
as far as reconciliation causing a republican win?
errr
no, it will prevent it, we need a real health care package for democrats to come out and if they do not do it through reconciliation THEN the democrats lose
so you’ve got it backwards
EXCELLANT plan, good job!
I couldn’t agree more. The tyranny of public highways, fire fighters, and food safety regulations must be put to end.
You sir are a caricature of parody. Congratulations.
I’m afraid you might be right. Our only next course of action might be to try and nationalize next year’s elections around
SINGLE PAYERhealth care and hope for the best.I, for one, would love to have an entire mid-term nationalized around Single Payer. If we fail to make the case and the rethugs retake both Houses, so be it. We deserve what we get.
I believe, in my heart of hearts, that we might be at the chokepoint in history where enough Americans are paying attention that we could win that debate, win that election, and force BHO to sign a Single Payer Health Care Bill despite of his own efforts.
An old guy can dream, can’t he?
excellent point. and even some members of the congressional black caucus are beginning to wonder about the “real” nature of Orahmba!
you’d be right if he weren’t in the pocket of corporatists
our politicians have balls, they also have responsibility toward their corporate sponsors
the problem here is that the dems are now bought just like the republicans were when they held power
which I predicted by the way, long before we took control I told everyone the dems WOULD become as corrupt as the repukes
and here we are today
Huh, I’ll post MY reply to your comment down below up here, as well.
Because I’d like to know what the PROCESS is, where we are at, and how it works from here, before I make any decisions. But let me say this first, KILL THE BILL! It serves no purpose whatsoever for the masses and only enrichens and entrenches the corporate stranglehold on our lives.
Here’s my questions, again:
1) The Senate has yet to finalize a bill. What Reid sent to CBO has NOT come back yet. No one knows what’s in the bill!
2) Once the CBO returns analysis, Senate has to vote on it, yes? Up or down? 60 votes to pass? Is this the next step?
3) Reid shows NO sign of using the recon 51 vote process for a bill with a public option, we can all agree that’s dead, yes?
4) Once Senate passes final bill, what happens? There will be one Senate Bill, one House Bill. What happens?
5) Who in the House will decide what to do? Pelosi? Can she demand up or down on Senate bill only, ignore House bill?
6) What IS the two chamber process, how does it work? Is there a committee built of House and Senate members that hash out the two bills, into one bill, and then present that to both Senate and House for final vote, pre Prez Signing/Veto?
Thanks to ANYONE who can spell out this process! Without knowing what this process really IS, I find it IMPOSSIBLE to contemplate who will do what, much less WHY they will do it.
The tyranny of public highways, fire fighters, and food safety regulations must be put to end.
And those damned teachers and cops, too. The list goes on and on…
Lieberman is on the floor of the Senate, yucking it up with the Republicans. They’re voting on the Dorgan drug reimportation amendment.
I wonder if Joe will allow drug reimportation to be a part of LeiberCare?
Obama, enabler of Lieberman
Reid, enabler of Lieberman
you forgot of course water to your house, electricity, police, clean air, clean water, the armed forces and the list continues
we have here today a bunch of marionettes repeating the propagand they are fed…and here’s the scary part;
I THINK THEY ACTUALLY BELIEVE WHAT THEY ARE POSTING!!!
And every single self-described conservative who isn’t on the Board of a multi-national has spent the last 50 years voting against their self-interest. What’s your point?
Hey progressives…sorry but you will not get a public option or single payer. WHY? Because the american people don’t want it. We are a democracy so you will have to stop whining and deal with it. If you are so upset about not having nationalized health care, you can always move to Canada or the UK. Then we will only see you when you have a medical problem and need american medicine to take care of it.
So please STOP WHINING, you are the minority and America does want your “progress”.
I totally agree!
The white house never wanted a public option or any form of competition for the insurance companies, So what did we really elect to the white house?
Obama loves to use the word hood winked and I am beginning to realize he is the master of that term!
s
c
r
o
l
l
Grayson’s on with Ed spouting the “there are lives at stake” bullshit.
backwards again, the public CERTAINLY wants a public option, every single poll says just that
you need some better sources, go try to find some before you post back, you’re one of the least informed trolls I’ve seen to date
You have conveniently overlooked the oppression and tyranny of corporate control over our lives and over our government.
And, you’ve conveniently left out the government’s roles in providing things for you, a citizen. Like, roads, schools, postal service, regulatory measures that delivered a ring tone to every hamlet in America, protection of water, military. On and on and on, the government has provided for you, your family, your neighbors, and for all of us.
The socialism you speak of? It don’t mean what you want it to mean . . . nice try, though.
NEXT!!!!
off on a date, see all later or tomorrow!
A phony and a fraud.
Grayson: “I’m going to vote for the Senate’s piece of shit.”
Grayson: “I’m still fighting for a public option.”
Uttered those two phrases within seconds of each other.
I guess he meant that he’ll fight for a public option next time around.
I wouldn’t mind if the user name “bull pelosi” weren’t banned, if he wants to come back he can try with a name that’s not a perjurative
thank you
Lieberman is on the floor of the Senate, yucking it up with the Republicans.
“So, how many died today as a result of not having healthcare?”
“Heh heh…probably at least a few dozen or so!”
“Heh heh heh.”
Thank you.
*G*
I know they believe it. The full breadth of their knowledge of economics, mathematics, and history is summed up by a series of superficial, simplistic, and emotionally satisfying catchphrases promulgated onto them by demagogues and personalities.
A condition that is, unfortunately, not the exclusive domain of their ilk.
Damn, fire fighters and food safety . . . left those out.
Thanks!
*G*
(damn socialists)
It’s called Conference Committee…! ;-)
It doesn’t have to go back to either house… And it can go back to one house alone…! Ya never know…! ;-)
he is so full of shit, I spit out the koolaid this bullshit artist was serving us last week after he went on the ed show and said how great the bill is because it at least has medicare for 55+
whats next this bill is great because its called a health care?
This entire process has been a mess from day one. Rather than have extensive hearings and work through all the issues and then put together a bill and have the public brought along step by step, the Dems put something out there and THEN began to work it through. Backwards.
Kill the bill, start again, and let the public in the whole process. Hold hearings on single payer. Educate the public. Get support. Do it right.
I sent an e-mail to Senator Boxer urging her to Kill teh Bill and I sent this e-mail to the White House:
The capitulation on the Public option will have a very high price in lost votes in future elections. You gave away Single Pay so that the Public Option could be sacrificed in a sham compromise that results in a huge giveaway to the insurance industry. Any positive elements in the Bill that managed to survive the rape of the insurance company flacks that wrote it will be wiped out by all the loopholes that will allow the insurance companies to cheat the public.
You have walked right into the Republicans dream outcome – this non-reform of healthcare will be your Waterloo. We all worked very hard and gave money we could not spare to get you elected – you may as well have just spit in our faces.
Needless to say, don’t bother contacting me for contributions or my vote.
Your Ex Supporter,
They have support, Obama just does not have the balls to act on what the public wants!
email address for Boxer please.
Impressive, that you seem to be able to type, yet seem completely unable to read. So I won’t bother linking to ALMOST EVERY SINGLE POLL TAKEN IN THE PAST SIX MONTHS SHOWING A MAJORITY OF AMERICANS SUPPORT THE PUBLIC OPTION.
But I will link to this one, done by The Kaiser Foundation, July, 2009, even though you’re just as likely unable to read it. So I’ll help, by cutting out the best question.
Bingo!
before I leave for the night
remember, it was obama that told reid to keep lieberman and it is obama telling reid to do as lieberman commands
they are working the same team, they are good cop bad cop
be good to yourselves all
and PUHLEEZE band the user name “bull pelosi” it is a deliberate perjurative
In response to leftwingrob @ 80
Ah, but the bill is so much better now that even that token is now out of the bill, isn’t it?
Obama treated us to the “Mushroom Cloud” argument: “if we don’t do this, the consequences will be severe.”
Obama: “Now that the legislation has gone from watered down reform to no reform at all, let’s get this done!”
Change you can believe in.
And it was Reid who failed to lead. He’s Majority Leader in the United States Senate. He can’t act like a leader?
Mission Accomplished — The Extortion for Corporate Profit Protection Rackets Act of 2010
Mr. President,
Just how bad will this bill be when Lieberman gets his way?
1) Mandates every American buy expensive insurance from private companies without the choice of a public option
2) Severely taxes middle class health care plans, rather than wealthy individuals
3) Insurance premiums will increase in cost $1000 a year
4) Increased health care costs
5) Insurance companies will be exempt from anti-trust laws, inhibiting competition
6) A sweet, sweet deal for PhRMA with no ability to negotiate for Medicare drug prices
7) Monopolies granted on new biologic drugs so they will never become generics
8) NO public option
9) NO Medicare expansion
Did you choose Howard Dean to lead the public policy debate and marketing campaign for real healthcare reform?
Of course not. For HSS you chose Tom Daschle who couldn’t even get confirmed because of huge lobbying conflicts in favor of corporate Pharma and Big Insurance.
So enjoy the temporary luxury while you can of hiding behind a socioopath like Joe Lieberman, who is the most convenient excuse for doing nothing that actually benefits average Americans.
Karl Rove has played you perfectly. From Wall Street bailouts & failed re-regulation to this healthcare fiasco, the RNC will use these woefully inadequate, doomed to fail, fake reforms to take back congress in 2010.
Good night and good luck with that, Mr President.
P.S. Bush & Cheney never had more than 55 votes in the senate, and they still ran D.C. like a third rate Central American dictatorship solely for their campaign contributors’ benefit. What’s your excuse — this was all Rahm’s idea?
you are right, perris, but the Obama worshippers think of him as their god, so they will never ever believe it. But he lost me forever. I actually loathe the fraud and phony now. There, I said it.
I noticed a fight between Howard Dean and the DLC some time ago. It seems to me that there is a faction of the democratic party controlled by the clintons and rahm emmanuel that is very similiar to the bush control of the republicans.Death to both parties.
rahm emmanuel continues to make press statements contrary to Obama policy. Since when did a chief of staff act like this? Very similiar to dick cheney and his power over the bush presidency.
Aloha and thanks for that!
So lemme see if I get this right . .
The Senate STILL has to finish something, a something the CBO is scoring, and they will have to vote on on that something, to approve or disapprove. And there’s STILL a possibility of MORE Senate discussion and stalling and such, before a final bill IS approved to come UP for the vote!
That vote requires 60 votes to pass the final bill.
Once that’s done, the Standing Committee’s in each chamber come together and hash out a final bill?
The wiki was somewhat confusing in the definition of the Standing Committee makeup. In once case, it’s the Committee who brought forth the legislation in the chamber. In Senate case, will it be HELP or Senate Finance Committee?
And which committee in House drafted the final House bill they approved (with Eshoo and Stupak in it)?
Becuase, if it comes to committee’s, the Progs in The House don’t mean squat, do they? It’s a Committee that will decide it! And I don’t think I like what them Committee’s look like.
Do I have this right? Cuz if so, the Prog Caucas in The House is irrelevant!! And we can’t really stop this shit unless we get the Senate to stop THEIR bill!
Do I have this right, CT?
N thanks again!
I think the only answer is to start a political action committee to draft Hillary Clinton for 2012. FU Obama. We don’t need no f-n traitor. Never again, 0bama. Go back to Chicago and play in their slime.
How about bull perris?
Wouldn’t 0bama just mess his pants when he realized his B+ was actually a F- to anybody who is not drunk on his pasted on dumb ass grin. Time to dump the corrupt fool. No change…no vote. Dump “The One”. Fool us once…
I was someone who was entranced by the candidacy of Barack Obama. Now, because of this shitty bill and Obama’s absolute lack of anything like leadership, I can’t wait to vote against him in 2012. Best I can do is vote for whomever the furthest-left third party is running for pres. B-Plus Barack is too busy being a rock star to the Eurotrash to care about health care for the US? Well, fuck him.
There’s not a single democrat in Congress right now, not even the most “dependable” liberals, who has the will to support a filibuster of this horrible bill.
In a sad way, I admire Lieberman for being willing to be a dick. No Democrat appears willing to take a stand.
Obama has set back the entire progressive agenda for a couple of decades. The extent of his betrayal is just starting to sink in with me.
For some reason my link didn’t work.
Try again. If it doesn’t this time, I’m at a loss.
~~~ModNote: Link above goes straight to PDF~~~
Don’t forget that snake pit of socialism the public library. They think I can’t hear them whisper comrade to each other.
Where did you find that poll? This was in the Washington Post, a liberal newspaper.
But Obama and the Democrats have had decidedly less success convincing the public that their health proposals will bring positive change. More than half of those polled, 53 percent, see higher costs for themselves if the proposed changes go into effect than if the current system remains intact. About as many (55 percent) say the overall cost of the national health-care system would go up more sharply. Moreover, just 37 percent say the quality of their care would be better under a new system; 50 percent see it as better under the current set-up.
Jane I fell in love with you the very nanosecond I saw your face and heard the passion in your voice.Every time I see you on TV I fall a little deeper.Watching you on MSNBC today I could see the pain and anger in your eyes.I can’t believe the American people are being thrown under the bus this way.I watch supposedly honorable men and women sell their souls for the almighty buck.My heart breaks at the mere thought of all the people that are suffering and dying in this country because of this.Big Business was something we Baby Boomers aka Hippies railed against back in the 60′s.Where’s all that passion now?I’ve always believed that we could change anything if we united and made a stand.I’m 55 and have health problems and no insurance.I’ve been without an income for over 7 months now due to a work related injury.I was denied workers comp and am still waiting on a judges decision.No free clinic will touch me because of the litigation.Consequently,I’m having to file for SSI/Disability.That in itself is a nightmare!Dearest Jane,keep fighting the good fight and I’ll quietly,deal with my unrequited love for you.I believe in you.Merry Christmas,Bill
I have a really hard time getting to the point of thinking anyone should be banned for anything. A person can create their own reputation on the merits of their arguments.
When one of them can go through, at the very least, Kenneth Arrow’s work on welfare economics, and proffer an intelligent and supported critique that doesn’t rely utterly on the economic equivalent of Christian Science; then perhaps we can get somewhere.
OFG, please warn when you are linking to a PDF. Thankyouverymuch!
What concerns me the most is how our progressive senators are caving every step of the way and pitching the company line about how good the bill still is after every single important part gets stripped away.
I have always considered Obama a blue dog that could hood wink the progressives, so no surprises from him..
First of all, you’re showing your… ignorance????… not sure what the right word is. You’re showing your lack of understanding of the word “liberal” if you think the Washington Post is liberal.
Secondly, you’re posting results about whether folks support Obama’s health care plans, not whether they support the public option. As you may be aware (particularly if you’ve read anything in this thread), Obama’s health care plan DOESN’T HAVE A PUBLIC OPTION.
Hey Bullpelosi, why dont you compare some key health indicators, like say infant mortality, or life expectancy, between capitalist utopia US and socialist nightmare Europe?
There IS no reform in the present Senate bill, as far as we know. The Public Option is out, the medicare buy in is out. There’s no reform at all of the health insurance system, only a mandate to force people to buy something they can’t afford from people who will raise their rates significantly because there’s no CAPS on premium costs!
Of COURSE people won’t want this lack of reform!
But over 70% of the general public, in polls conducted since January of 2009, have said they want and support HCR that provides a robust public option (which has been defined enough times in here I don’t think I have t relist that THAT is).
So, your point is pretty meaningless.
And I guess you DO know that ALL The Media, radio, tv, print, are corporate owned and the liberal slant you offer has been debunked for decades now . . . .
SO you are not only meaningless, yer outdated, and working the worst talking points I’ve seen.
As a troll, you really shouldn’t be here at FDL, you should be practicing on some much lesser sites before you try and hang with the big dogs. You just can’t pee high enough up the pole to run with this pack.
What progressive Senators?
Oh, sorry. That may be a intertoob courtesy I need to be aware of and wasn’t.
So it’s common courtesy to warn of when linking to PDF’s??
OK. Could you maybe help out with any others?? I seem to recall it’s common courtesy to warn when the material isn’t fit for work, but I can’t imagine every posting links to anything like that. Could you help out with other common courtesies please?? Thanks, I’m not the sharpest knife in the drawer by a long shot, but if you work with me, I’ll try!!!
Thanks. And sorry for the link without the warning.
~~~Mod has noted this in that comment.~~~
I completely agree that rather than killing the Senate bill our primary focus now needs to be the firewall of those progressive representatives in the House. It’s the only weapon left to us; if we kill the bill now, before giving the House progressives a chance to fix this abortion in conference, we will have truly shot ourselves in the foot.
In what universe is the Washington Post a “liberal newspaper?”
It’s an establishment D.C. rag. It’s editorial page is literally littered with neoconservative and neoliberal tripe on every conceivable topic.
We can do without the name-calling. Stick to the issues, please.
My first post here. Hey there folks. A lot of people seem to fear for the Democrats in 2010 if the Senate fails to pass their health care bill. Let us make things clear: As it stand the current proposed legislation, if passed, will do more harm than good-from a legislative pov. Not only would it not “bend” the so-called cost-curve, not only would it reduce current coverage which people already have, not only would it allow the exact same arbitrary caps to be imposed, which the president promised would not be allowed, not only would it not provide any resemblance of universal health care, not only would it not provide any kind of meaningful counter-balance to the sickening for-profit insurance model-on the contrary we would be legally obligated to pay the exact same companies, monthly( a kind of tax/rent), which created the horror of modern day American health care, this legislation would make it even more difficult in the future to get any real reform passed.
People aren’t going to vote Republican in 2010 because of the success or failure of this bill. The Republicans have made it abundantly clear that they, collectively and individually, have no interest whatsoever in any kind of meaningful reform. They are only concerned about TORT-reform and further deregulation of the insurance market to allow more “competition” amongst for-profit insurance companies. The 2010 election will be all about which senate/congress hopefuls actually support Universal Health Care-ie. across the board access for all people who live in America. The public-option, from it’s inception, was considered to be the next-best thing to single-payer. Single-payer is the *only* way to actually insure that *all* people in the US can have access to affordable health care-all other routes which attempt to meet this will fail in terms of universality or affordability, and in all likelihood both.
In 2010 people will vote for Democrats, just not those Democrats who currently are running the show. We should have no loyalty whatsoever to the current stock of Democrats who are now in power. The fact that their are exceptions simply prove the rule: the vast majority of Democrats have neither the political will or courage to fight for what the people want. It is not the case that there are only a handful of conservadems who are blocking progress. On the contrary the Democratic party as a whole does not really embrace the kind of progressive policies which millions of Americans are crying out for.
Folks the Republicans would not have held so much power for so many years if the Democrats-taken as a whole- had actually represented a viable alternative. The economic malaise which grips this country was created during the Clinton administration-Bush Jr. simply carried on, further warping what was already done by the Clinton-era Democrats. If you take a look at neo-liberal discourse over the last 20 years you cannot separate the Democrats and Republicans-virtually no elected representative actually called into question the neo-liberal economic policies which actually created both the Great Recession and the current health care debacle. Yes a few sole voice stood out against such, some Dems and some repubs-but it was like an unwritten litmus test for office-either you embrace these neo-liberal “truths” or you don’t get elected. How can we expect those Democrats who came to power under that now-debunked ideology to suddenly embrace a health care reform which radically calls into question the entire neo-liberal economic ideology.
Saying that you need a public option to provide competition to the for-profit industry is actually a radical departure from the “free market enterprise” ideology of the neo-liberals(of which neo-cons are just a splinter group). Although most people fail to grasp it- this kind of “competition” actually is an attack against the predominant understanding of competition, which has reigned for years, which means unfettered, unregulated, for-profit markets, which hold a defacto-monopoly on proprietary services which are based on the principle of exclusion, ie. preventing some from even having access to the services offered. Most people probably cannot even sense the sea-change in meaning, the semantic shifts, which are invisible in the words we use, after all public-option competition is spelled the same way that Republicans spell competition when they talk about further deregulating insurance companies. But the difference in meaning is profound because the proprietary exclusiveness of “competition” itself is being called into question-we the people want all people to have access to quality healthcare, no more shall certain people be deemed unworthy of access to quality health care.
So don’t fear for the Democrats in 2010, those Democrats who will lose in 2010 are the ones who have not grasped the real changes which have already happened. The discourse has shifted. Now we need only find potential representative who grasp the distinction and want the new understanding and are willing to fight to make these new meaning reality.
On behalf of all the cultists, nihilists, and advanced Naderists, I would like to welcome you to the tent, Jane.
I’m still wondering what the issue is with PDF files . . . . .
Some browsers react badly when a link direct-to-PDF is clicked.
It is just a courtesy notice.
Hardly, WaPoop catapults the neo-con propaganda. You talk the neo-con talk yourself. Neo-cons believe the Government should never help people but only help corporations. Also neo-cons want their oil wars, and Phony Disaster Capitalism to prevent Health Care for Americans.
@MsMolly.
Here is a link to a website that list several polls on single payer. All showing majority, or at least a plurality of support. WARNING-THEY LINK TO PDF’s OF THE POLL RESULTS I THINK.
Oh, and sorry, again.
And to TLM, was that warning at me??? Sorry if my word ignorance above was out of bounds. I can’t edit it now but maybe you can, ok?
Will you please list for me, the Committee in the House that authored the legislation they passed.
Then, list for me the Committee in the Senate that authored the legislation they are considering.
Then, list for me the NAMES on those committee’s.
And then tell me where in the hayall you think any positive progressive needs will come from? And how you think THOSE Committee’s will IMPROVE what the Senate Bill is?
Not even the HOUSE Committee is gonna improve shit . . . . the Prog Caucas doesn’t even figure IN to any of this!
Unless I’ve learnt wrongly today about the process, the Committee’s finish off the discussion, changes and such, and it goes to President for signing!
I’m STILL not clear if what the Committee’s finish up with, has to or CAN go back to either Chamber for a majority vote to pass . . . .
But till the process is understood, you can’t MAKE the kinds of calculations or predictions or strategy suggestions you are, I don’t think.
Well, you can, you can do what you want . . . . but I don’t believe it’s accurate, what you are stating . . .
Directed at no one in particular. PDF’s are tricky sometimes, and we don’t want to crash people’s browsers if we can help it.
No big deal, and thank you.
I suspect you’re wrong about the nuclear option. Yes, if they can’t make a deal with one of their holdouts, e.g. Nelson, they may have to go that route. But if that happens then what passes will NOT be a travesty.
That is because in the nuclear option they only need 51 votes. And they already have 55 votes for the public option. So we would probably see Reid’s original mark get passed.
Of course, that assumes that going to reconciliation will not be seen by the Dem leadership as an opportunity/obligation to send the bill all the way back to committee for a total rewrite, which is what I’m afraid will happen. Because Congress will be in NO MOOD, at that point, to try again, health care reform will then effectively be buried.
Which means, like it or not, about the only hope we have now is to pass a piece of shit in the Senate in order to get it to conference where wiser more progressive heads from the House may prevail.
Curtain and Akroyd come to mind IMMEDIATELY!
*G*
What makes you believe the leadership thinks it was bad behavior? Wake up. Lieberman played his role as spoiler perfectly. That’s why the Democratic leadership keeps him around. He’s the sponge that soaks up your wrath while Tammy Baldwin goes on her merry way. Sure, the joke is on us, but don’t let them fool you into believing they were on our side. That’s just silly.
This episode is just smoke and mirrors. The progressives are being set up. Stephanie Miller has always said the President is playing chess while everyone else is playing checkers. Leiberman is a straw man. The bill is what the President wants.
He was against the buy in, he wanted the ‘trigger’. The sooner we perceive him as the bluedog that he is, we can process his administration. This whole thing set up Harry Reid up to be the fall guy. rahm went to his offices on sunday and told him to fold. Think about it, within hours of joe making the comments on Sunday rahm goes to reid? Not leiberman?
I think this goes right to the President. He had baucus standing behind him this afternoon, the bill totally comports with the baucus bill, it was what HE wanted.
If the progressives kill the bill, we will fall into the trap that he and the MSM has been laying since the summer. The meme was the President will have resistance from the ‘left’, never mind the four bluedogs that have been bribed to appear to be the ‘responsible resistance’. The idea the progressives are going to vote with republicans to defeat the bill is precisely the talking point the liberals will be hammered with.
This is the President getting what HE wants.
He has always been about preserving the viability of insurance companies. His deal this summer with Pharma is a giant red cape. How was that fighting for the people?
The idea millions of un/underemployed Americans are going to be compelled to become customers of insurance companies is galling. An annual cap on expenses is in this bill. There is no restriction on the cost of insuring people with preexisting conditions.
Step back and see what his positions are. He is in the pocket of banksters, he opposes the restoration of Glass-Steagal.
He maintains monetary policies that provide big banks with treasry funds at 0% and they can do whatever with it.
He has yet to advocate for any criminal responsibility for the massive fraud that HAD to contribute to the collapse of the economy of the world.
Do you really think there are going to be perpwalks in Manhatten? Just last saturday he said things were ‘in the past’ regarding the meltdown. Just like bushco’s warcrimes. He was pathetic yesterday getting snubbed by the vampire squid, simpering for help.
I would NEVER vote for a republican, and would do anything to insure one is kept from the highest office. I will be hoping for a primary challenge from someone who isn’t a corporate sellout.
A very reasoned and succinct discourse on the state of things, as shitty as they are.
Blows holes in a lot of the scare myths and inaccuracies about ’10 AND ’12.
Well done! And Thanks!
Lieberman today said that the door’s open to him running as a Republican in 2012. See CNN’s Lieberman on party switch: ‘All options are open’.
He endorsed John McCain in 2008.
He fucked over the entire Democratic Party and the American people in 2009.
Now he’s saying publicly that he’s open to switching parties after all the concessions Obama and Reid just gave to him.
What more does this child have to do before Reid will take away his committee chairmanship?
Huh, I’ve used IE, Safari, Firefox on PC and Mac in my time, never had that happen . . . that’s new to me.
I can appreciate the courtesy thing . . . . thanks!
Congress in NO MOOD to go back and do it again? Put it out of reach for a decade?
Mumbo jumbo, hoss!
Congress will be FORCED by the american voting public to go back and get it right! NOW!
Worst extrapolation of the sitch I’ve ever seen, yet another false meme planted for dawg knows what reason.
All are equally indebted to and exist for the benefit of corporate rule.
Our Congress has lost the fact that they should be representing the needs of the people, not the corporate overlords.
Of this, I’m spot on with you all the way.
Jane,
The argument you make that the Senate bill is worse than nothing seems true but is not immeidiately apparent. It requires a little thinking through and that is always a drawback.
Basically the argument is that taxing benefits makes them more costly and leads emloyers to offer plans with fewer benefits and require that a greater fraction of the cost to be assumed by the person insured. And that over time the number of plans that are taxed increase because they will always exceed the threshold that determines which plans are taxed. And this is how the cost of care is reduced, by reducing over time the amount of care that is covered and sought.
Insurers on the other hand continue to collect premiums on plans that become progressively less generous.
If this is the intent of the Senate bill then it is certainly worse than nothing because over time people will be getting fewer and more costly benefits in their insurance plans.
This argument however is a little involved and hard to follow. It is infuriating that such contorted measures are sought when much simpler and more effective reform is available. Simply amazing the lenghts to which legislators will go to avoid doing what is right.
Reid won’t take it away because Lieberman has been performing exactly as he’s expected to perform. He’s representing the insurance industry and providing cover for the rest of the corporatists. C’mon, the vast majority of Democrats don’t represent us; they represent corporations.
There’s not much if ANYTHING in what you state I don’t now agree with.
I was HOPING for better, but after FISA, TARP, and now HCR it’s pretty obvious we’ve elected a corporate shill who has NO interest in the general public, and is only interested in getting financial support for his party from the corporate overlords to stay in power.
Our Prez, the Dem Party, our Congress, all fully bought and paid for and doing the bidding of the corporate oligarchy.
Not much has changed in the past few decades other than the power and the money are all being more and more compressed into the hands of fewer and fewer people.
Le Sigh.
Hmmm . . . my #127 was directed back to Lurking Mod, not to Criggs . . . my bad.
I agree with you. The very second Harry Reid took reconciliation off the table it was pretty clear that the Dems were shifting into disaster capitalism mode and whatever bill they were cooking up would be a corporate giveaway.
Holy Joe will get all the votes his insurance company patrons can muster. Connecticut voters, on the other hand, will give Joe a Bronx cheer, terminating his public employment and forcing him to live off his ill-gotten millions. Sadly, that will also end Hadassah’s brilliant career as a health care lobbyist, since her at-home persuasion will be of no further use.
Besides, Joe is already a Republican. What’s to switch?
Agreed.
i agree at this point it should be no mandate or no bill!
Works great! Thanks.
The point is, and what you’re missing, is that the committee work HAS ALREADY BEEN DONE.
The House of Representatives referred the health care reform bill to three of its committee months ago. Those three committees, over the course of two to three months, produced three versions of the legislation. The Speaker then melded those three bills into one fairly progressive reform bill, containing a public option. At the last minute, pro-lifer Bart Stupak, a Dem, forced anti-abortion rights language into the bill, but otherwise it was a good bill.
In the Senate an exactly similar process occurred over the past few months, the only difference being that only two committees had jurisdiction there, the HELP committee and the Finance committee. Finance produced a version with no public option. HELP was Kennedy/Harkin’s committee and they produced a version that had one. Subsequently Reid married the two into a compromise version, the same as Pelosi did. Reid’s compromise version has a public option also, but allows states to opt out of that option one year after its implementation, in 2014, if they wish.
At this time, the Senate is debating Reid’s bill. If the public option is to be stripped from the official Reid bill, that action must take place in the form of approving an amendment which could be offered to that effect. If the Medicare buy-in is to become part of the legislation, that action must take place in the form of approving an amendment which could be offered to that effect. And so forth and so on.
After all of the amendments are debated and approved/rejected, the Senate then must hold two more votes. The first is on whether or not to proceed to a final vote on the bill. This is the vote that requires 60 votes. The second vote is the final vote on the bill itself, where passage only requires 50 votes.
And if the bill survives those two final votes in the Senate, the next step is for the joint House/Senate conference committee to convene. Such committees are ad hoc, in the sense that the members who serve on those commmittees are selected on the spur of the moment by the leadership to work on the particular bill in question. These committees do not have permanent members and these conference committees have no permanent existence.
It is at this point that the House of Representatives, and the fairly progressive health care reform bill they passed about a month ago, becomes relevant. You see, the Representatives from the House who are serving on that committee will take the public option bill they passed in the House and put that on the conference table. The Senate will do likewise with its bill, which presumably will be Liebercare, with no public option or Medicare buy-in.
And it is at this point where the fact that we have progressive Representatives in the House who have committed to a progressive health care reform bill becomes relevant. Some of these progressive Representatives may even be serving on the conference committee. Others may not be serving but may have the ear of some of those who are serving on the committee. What it boils down to is that it is at this point that progressive Representatives will be in a position to demand that anything coming out of this conference committee have a public option or a Medicare buy-in or some similar mechanism to force private insurance companies to compete with the public sector.
But, in order for these progressive Representatives to have any chance of rescuing a true health care reform bill from this garbage, the Senate bill, piece of shit though it may be, must, MUST, be allowed to make it to the conference committee. And the only way that can happen is if we allow this Senate bill to be approved by the full Senate before Christmas.
Just to fill out the remaining blanks, after the conference committee comes together on a bill that all of its members can support, the bill that has been produced as a result the conference committee’s labors will go back to the House and the Senate for straight up-or-down votes.
And if the bill that comes out of conference is no better, or not significantly better, than what we’re seeing in the Senate at the moment, then it will be entirely appropriate for us to urge its defeat.
My point, however, is that now is not that time, because we have not yet given our allies in the House a chance to save the day in conference. And we need to do that before giving up completely on this.
Which is why, much as I love him, I think Howard Dean is wrong.
By the way, irrelevantly, I would just like to vent to say how frustrating and unbelievable I find it that someone who participates on this blog is unaware of these basics on how Congress produces and passes a bill. I realize that you have come here voluntarily, that you want to help, and that your heart is in the right place. I realize that, considering the low level of voter turnout in this country as compared to other countries, and the cavalier attitude our society has toward civic involvement, it is not unusual for our citizens to be far less plugged in to the political process than in most other modern industrialized countries. So this is not really your fault; but it is infuriating nevertheless.
Interesting.
I have no problem with people telling me I’m wrong. I don’t understand why the need to accuse me of ulterior motives.
Hi Everyone.
This is my first post here at FDL. I believe this bill must be killed unless they remove the individual mandate. There are good things in the bill, but there are plenty of bad things in it and the mandate without a viable alternative to for-profit insurance takes the cake. There is no cost savings with this bill if the insurance companies can charge someone with a pre-existing condition 3 times the normal rate and you’re forced to buy it or get fined. This is not American. At least with auto insurance and home owners insurance, I’m not forced to buy a car or home.
If this bill passes like it is now, the Democrats will have a lot to worry about in 2010 and 2012. I’ll be removing myself from the Democratic party if this passes with the mandate and no alternative.
Jane, McCain and the GOP are writing the bill via Joe Lieberman. They know that a bill …some bill …will pass ..they have Joe carving it up to make sure it is something that they can kill or repeal later…you know when they get the House and Senate back…all by 2013. So no worries on the alleged reform bill…it will die before it is implemented finally in 2014. All this has been a steroid case of mental masturbation because the WH ..the President and his brain trust played God early and lost control shortly there after. Its disgusting. I marched in the 60s…and got disgusted. I finally saw something different last year…I was once more fooled…not again. Obama represents change only because he is African American…beyond that he is no better, and no worse than the lousy leadership we have had in this country since 1963.
Hey pedalon – welcome to Firedoglake.
I came to this site today because I heard that you were asking for the removal of Joe Liebermans wife from the Susan G Koman foundation. I found that to be very unplesant and distasteful. By reviewing the site..my questions have been answered.
Progressive stands for: pathetic parasite on a perpetual pity party.
Shame on all of you..For wanting me, the government, to take care of you. This country was founded on the rights of the individual. Our founding fathers believed in the strength and ingenuity of that individual. They didn’t want to stand around in the kings court begging for a piece of land or a cow. You pathetic whiners are taking this great nation back to the age of the kingdom. Shame on all of you. Shame, Shame Shame
You and your children are the real loosers here, because that is what you are..loosers.
If you want health insurance then go out an purchase it..just like I do.
My insurance company saved my life..they paid over 2 million dollars for my bone marrow transplant..which didn’t cost you a dime..why? Because I take care of myself..
How can you people have any self pride thinking like you do?
Shame on you…
Ladies and Gentlemen, Rush Limbaugh (or is it Eric Cantor) is in the house!
Pedalon, I don’t post either, much. And I agree completely with you. In short what they are considering would put me in the position of being forced to choose “medically induced bankruptcy”. I have no intention, living as I do in Georgia, to even participate in the 2010 elections. The dems can go “fornicate” with themselves. Hope they enjoy themselves.
Cantor’s spelling is better. Must be Rush.
I picked out this gem of a quote as an accurate example of the sophisticated intelligence and critical thinking you can expect from the rest of the post.
Probably not fair, not fair at all. But after polluting my poor eyes and brain with such tripe; all considerations of fairness seem to have left me. Sorry.
Sarah Palin ever have a bone marrow transplant that we know of?
Dan Quayle maybe? The Beckster?
Possibilities are endless.
Excellent diary, Jane, especially this:
As you know better than almost anyone, Obama has not really been on board health care reform from the beginning. He and Rahm took single payer off the table immediately, instead came up with a weak substitute (the public option) and then even began running away from that. This bill is a gift to the insurance industry and is being sold as “reform” when it is just the opposite. Obama, Rahm and Joe Lieberman all work for the same thing and it isn’t average Americans.
hey egregious – ltns
I don’t think there’ll be any final bill for Obama to sign or veto by Xmas. I think ‘reform’ turned into a dry-run proof-of-concept enterprise: where does everyone stand on this or that. Next year we’ll see the hard-core alignments and re-alignments about health-care ‘reform’ as campaign issues. Why? I think otherwise the campaigns will be anticlimactic at best, utterly contemptuous of voters at next-to-best, and unthinkable from there on down.
Thanks egregious.
It’s uncharitable to say well I got mine and screw everybody else. Some people can’t afford insurance in the first place no matter how many jobs they work. There are folks who are too sick to work. Not everyone has family members who can cover them.
And I find especially egregious the contention that because one person’s insurance worked, other people can safely go that route. We have lots of stories of people at FDL who have had their insurance rescinded when they got cancer or a heart attack. You only *think* you have insurance, until they take it away. There oughtta be a law….
Sorry, had to read through the thread and found this pathetic tripe. You’re children are the losers – you’re still alive.
Oops – edit is my friend – “Your children”
Hey thanks buddy! I let the Dems know just how thankful I am
I hope everyone is seeing what is on HuffPo’s front page. The Obama regime is giving Citibank a $38 billion tax break to “wean” them off government funds. So basically that $20 billion they’re “paying back” is really still sticking with them. Don’t you love how we can’t afford healthcare reform unless the middle class gets a mandate and its benefits taxed, but world-class incompetent Citibank gets a tax break? It truly is a Christmas Miracle!
Let’s see, 40 Rebpublicans and ONE progressive Democrat stalls the Senate Bill. It would be an interesting experiment to see if any Repugs peel away to push the bill forward once this scenario began to play. Then we could get into a bidding war to see if there are more libs willig to kill the bill or more Repugs willing to “vote” for it. I’ve often wondered if Repugs would ride to the rescue if the libs got upity. And would’t that be a perfect show for the American people to watch? Repugs and Dems joining hands to deliver to their Corporate masters.
I tend to agree … unless Reid, Pelosi and Obama do something along the following lines.
Pass anything in the Senate. It doesn’t matter anymore what it contains, its worthless. just submit whatever pile of crap it takes to get 60 steenkin’ votes.
It then goes to a conference committee to reconcile with the House bill. Reid makes sure to leave the Blue Dogs out when he picks the Senate conferees. Pelosi does the same. The conferees basically ignore the Senate bill, and fashion a decent bill mostly from the House version. Pass the conference report in the House – as a budget bill, then send it to the Senate where it cannot be amended or filibustered. 50 votes plus Joe Biden = universal health care.
Or … let it fail. Watch and record as the Republicans publicly celebrate condemning hundreds of thousands of Americans to unnecessary death. Blame the GOP and Blue Dogs, energize the sleeping progressive base who thought they could relax because “Obama won” the election. Get them so mad that progressive candidates challenge so called centrists in every Democratic primary. And then after the mid-terms, with a more progressive Democratic Party, and hopefully still with a working majority in both houses, we use the budget process to establish Medicare part E, and put it into effect ahead of the schedule of the current bills.
Are you lost? My guess is you should have curved right about 75 years ago.
(Flush Limbeaux)
Looshers!!!!!
What do you mean “even”? They were the first to say publicly that he was problematic. As I recall they refused to sign the bill to rein in the banksters until unemployment was addressed.
Now you know why this administration, read Rahm Emmanuel, has shunned Howard Dean. What a shame! I am with Howard all the way. Kill the bill.
I infinitely prefer the first course of action, and I think it’s very, VERY, clever! It obviates the Senate of the need/escape hatch of sending legislation to committee for a rerun of the whole dreary months-long process, and neatly invokes reconciliation with Harry Reid not having to do a dang thing. Neat.
I thought it was Ponnuru or D’Louza …
What a load of horse hockey. If you want to convince or persuade, you might try a coherent argument backed up by evidence, not that hopeless mishmash you just spouted: Komen, cows, shame, shame. That would all be great snark except you are serious and that is just sad.
In this country, it is not personal virtue which gets you good healthcare. It is luck. Had you had a different employer or another insurance company or any one of a hundred other variables in your policy you could have well been kicked to the curb for a prior condition, your care could have been denied, your employer could have let you go. It wasn’t your character and intelligence that saved you. It was the luck of the draw. Many others are not so fortunate as you. If you ever bothered to look past yourself and your own particular experience, that is if you had even a iota of empathy and awareness of the plight of others you might already know this. But you don’t and that is a more profound condemnation of you and your position than any I could offer.
Robert Parry over at consortiumnews.com wrote a column on this very subject today.
I know many people think this is our only chance for health care; however, I think Dr. Dean is correct in his observation that reform won’t wait. The situation is too dire to avoid action. When Clinton tried, health care hadn’t reached crisis. Health care costs are bankrupting families. Now with the recession, high unemployment, and Medicare going over a cliff because of the big PhRMA and insurance company giveaways, something must be done. If this abomination is killed, the Senate will know they must tack left to get anything passed.
I don’t want the user banned I want the name banned, he can re register with a name that’s not intended to insight
I don’t know how to prove this to you, Criggs, but I guarantee you that the same Party leadership that forced the Stupak amendment onto the House floor and thus into the bill and removed the committee-passed Kucinich state single-payer amendment (at White House direction, per Kucinich and Pelosi) will – behind closed doors – control the conference committee output, and, in so doing, will defer to the White House and its private Executive Branch “deals.”
Unless and until, as you correctly note (along with accurately summarizing where we are and how we got here), there is a rock-solid progressive block that would defeat the bill in that form in either the House or the Senate or both. [A Senate block could also defeat the Reid "manager's amendment" that - in one fell swoop - is the intended vehicle for inserting all of the latest backroom deals into the Senate bill - probably along with many of the hundreds of filed amendments that have never been called up or debated on the Senate floor - just before the final vote in the Senate is forced via the filing of a cloture motion.]
The reason I can’t prove it to you is because the process (of end-running ‘regular order’ during conferencing) is intentionally secret. The nominal (formally-appointed) conference committee members of each body – other than the most powerful Democrats (only) like Baucus, Dodd, Rangel, and Waxman – sit around and wait to be told what they will be rubberstamping (or, if Republicans, opposing) in the one (or two) public meetings held for that purpose. Everything else besides those show-meetings is done in secret, and is now tightly controlled by the majority Party leadership, which defers to the White House, as reporting about the stimulus bill conference process – with Rahm Emanuel in the middle of it – made clear earlier this year. No, that’s not the way Wikipedia describes the process, nor the way it should operate in an independent Legislative Branch of government, especially under a Party pledged to “transparency” – but that is in fact the undemocratic, disgraceful Party-created reality today that’s strangling representative democracy in our federal legislature.
Finally, and crucially for the 60-vote apologists, conference committee reports can be filibustered in the Senate. Thus the final conferenced health care “reform” bill (which is clearly already being pre-conferenced with the House leadership in private as Steny Hoyer’s recent public remarks about passing a public option-free bill demonstrate) will also “need” 60 votes to pass in the Senate.
Brilliant analysis, my shadow. Very clarifying. I’d never quite connected Obama to blue dog but I think that’s exactly right. Very dispiriting indeed that progressives and even (true) centrist Dems are perceived as the enemy by this administration. Corporatism rules, with Obama as the face of it.
I have no reason to doubt the accuracy or probability of anything you have said. However all of that can be shortcircuited in one fell swoop if the House Progressive Caucus sticks to its guns. Until we know for sure that they won’t, it continues to make no sense to me to kill the bill now. Waiting to give the HPC a chance to fix this either during or after conference continues to make the most sense to me.
Could this really be done (I mean assuming Reid were not a slug)? Sounds fantastic. Alas…
Great interview Jane, and thank you. And WHO WAS THAT OFFICIOUS LITTLE TWIT FOR LIEBERMAN, TFL(TM), facing off against you? Ick.
After seeing Big O saying any piece of paper with writing on it is worth signing, and Tom Harkin being so obsequious on Rachel’s show (“Think of this bill as the foundation of a house you can build on…”) watching you and Howard make the case for killing this helped me keep from losing my dinner.
i know i’m preaching to the choir in this room, but you’ve convinced me: nothing in this case WOULD be better than something. this bill needs to go down in flames and the democrats need to deal with the consequences. i’m unemployed (just like a third of the people here, i’m sure) and had to let my COBRA payments lapse. frankly, i’m just letting it go: these crooks are not getting one more dime from me – i’ll take my chances with fate.
Amen. I’m sorry that you have come to this point, and it’s beyond sad that so many decent people are going to die because of these clowns.
Well, DKos is a giant flame war the past few months. Half the site is with Kos, mcjoan, Meteor Blades and evaluates each situation independently, the other half just defends the president non-stop. The forces collide and it’s endless bickering, diary wars, etc. It loses a purpose. Is DKos supposed to achieve some activist goal(s) or serve as a chat room for people to argue endlessly? I’m upset their front page staff hasn’t been as opinionated nor taken a greater stand on that, basically allowing the problem to continue. I have to wonder if they’re thinking site hits, ad revenue, and TV show appearances. Getting the site back on track, making their point of view more clear, and doing something about the endless bickering could scare away the large die-hard Obama supporting group, dropping site hits and everything else with it.
However, you’ll find these defenders of the status quo Democrats everywhere. It’s important to keep our mind on the big picture and not get bogged down arguing endlessly with people on a message board.
You are just wrong on all accounts.
I have never received HI thru any employer..It didn’t make sense to me.What if I got sick and couldn’t work, I would loose my insurance. So..I have paid, out of pocket, my HI since I grad from University.
My HI bill is priority in my house..before cars. tv’s,cable, cell phones (dont have one) and house payments I cannot afford.
So, when I got sick, I couldn’t be dropped, as the ins. belonged to me. They never questioned anything..my Dr. and I were the bosses of my treatment..as the insurance co. was working for me. During the years I had saved plenty, as I am a non consumer of useless crap so was able to pay my premiums thru 4 years of illness and recovery. I am now back to work..I am a blue collar worker as is my husband. We survived..independently..on our own. I could have applied for ss:disability
but that is so distasteful to me, to ask the taxpayer to take care of me, that I never did.
So..It was personal virtue not luck which saved my life. It was good, or shall I say, great choices on my part. And every one of you out there has the intelligence, capacity and means to be indipendent self sufficient proud individuals.
Your evidence: read the constitution and histories of you forefathers.
There is nothing more fulfilling than being independent of your family..moving out of the house and going on your own..flying from the nest. But as long as you still have that umbillical cord attached to the government, you will never be truly free.
And as long as you are demanding that I pay your way, I am going to be mad about it.
Kumari, [edited by moderator]. This isn’t about the Constitution, this is about doing the right thing. You rightwing troll [edited by moderator] know NOTHING about the Constitution except how to spout innuendo and opinion. You are the same people that think that religion belongs in our government. Give me a break. You have NO credibility.
[mod note: Please do not insult other commenters. Thanks.]
“You da man!” Jane, “You da man!
I’m with you and Dr. Dean on dumping this piece of shit bill that the senate has come up with.
Sorry to say but our history proves that Americans have to start to die in droves before the dumbed-down “center right” electorate finaly wakes up.
Sad but true more middle class Americans will die with or with this senate bill so why green light even bigger profits for the insurance and big pharma robber barrons in the process.
Hey, you’re on the wrong web site kumari. The “Golden Rule” is the watch word here.
Try going to the ClusterFOX, the GOP or the Teabaggers web sites if you want a pat on the back for your “rightuous thoughts”.
All you’ll get from us progressives here at FDL is dissed for your twisted sense of what’s fair and just for ALL Americans.
Unless of course you like being kicked in the balls for thinking like a Neanderthal…
“I’d like to repeat, the ONLY way to force Joe L. to toe the line is to use Israel as an incentive or a club. It’s incredible that no one’s addressed this, it’s clearly the only issue he won’t sell for political points. My guess is Israel is at the heart of any game he’s been playing with the Obama team.”
You mean, Lieberman (and Rahm) help get Bam a corporatist health insurance grabfest that helps Michelle fill her pocketbook big time, post first-ladyship (I know–it’s indelicate to mention it, right?), just like Hadassah.
And in return, Bam comes up with an excuse to bomb bomb bomb Iran?
I think we all need to get passports by the end of the year.
Might Howard Dean be wrong?
No.
“They won’t stop until there is nothing left but a mandate; criminalizing abortion for poor women; and a new additional massive transfer of wealth from the poor and (what remains of) the middle class to insurance and pharma, ie Wall Street.”
Awesome. Michelle thanks you.
Hugs and kisses,
Bam!
Attacking Obama from the grassroots left is exactly what Lieberman wants. Mike Malloy read this Robert Parry article on his show Tuesday night :
snip:
If Lieberman succeeds in sinking Obama’s chief domestic priority – health care reform – or waters it down so much that it alienates Obama from his liberal base, Obama may find himself essentially the captive of the neocons, needing their blessing to maintain any political viability in Washington.
Lieberman has been careful not to connect his disruptive behavior on health-care reform to his support for Israel, but there can be little doubt that a chastened Obama, either defeated on health care or forced to sign a bill that liberals will view as a betrayal, will have much less political capital to expend in applying pressure on Israel.
A hobbled Obama won’t be able to push Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu to halt expansion of West Bank settlements or to take other steps that might lead to a Palestinian state. Obama also could be pushed around himself if Israel – itself an undeclared nuclear power – decides to launch airstrikes against Iran’s nuclear facilities.
The Israel explanation for Lieberman’s behavior on health-care reform is the one that seems to make the most sense.
more http://bartblog.bartcop.com/2009/12/15/robert-parry-on-lieberdouche-protecting-israel/
Actually, she’s basically right about the constitution. However, THIS bill that forces a particular class of (basically unlucky) individuals to buy insurance from private corporations–rather than allowing them to make that choice themselves (as she says she did)–equally flouts SEVERAL constitutional clauses I can think of.
“If Lieberman succeeds in sinking Obama’s chief domestic priority – health care reform – or waters it down so much that it alienates Obama from his liberal base, Obama may find himself essentially the captive of the neocons, needing their blessing to maintain any political viability in Washington.”
I don’t think it matters at this point. Bam came in captured. Probably we need to seek more fully why that might be rather than merely blaming him, his character, his intentions, etc.
Unless we think that another elected official would have done much differently. As much I’d like to think that is still possible, I don’t really believe it.
It’s completely broken.
I completely agree with you on the health care bill… it’s going to be lame and useless and costly and won’t even put a dent in the insurance companies’ profits… But you can bet that the Republicans who forced all the concessions that turned it into a turd will point out forever that it’s floating in the Democratic punch bowl! It’s a lose/lose for us… it doesn’t come close to the dream we had and will be hung around our necks forever… AND even if we get it passed and manage somehow to make even the teeniest part of it actually work the Republicans will take ALL credit for even the smallest grain of success claiming that it was due to the crucial tweaks they bravely forced on us over our objections…
I truly believe we should yank the damned thing off the table, write a clean bill with every bit of public option, birth control and choice we want, bring the sucker up to a vote and see what happens. If it passes 51 to 49 great. Done… If they filibuster they show themselves for the obstructionist, anti-health care jackals that they are. We own the House and the Senate. Why are we pussy-footing around the bastards that got us mired in Iraq, passed the Patriot Act, sullied our honor abroad and gave the country the worst reputation for unilateral action and arrogance that it has EVER had, allowed the financial and corporate sectors to bring the world to the brink of financial ruin, allowed the mortgage industry to bankrupt the American dream and throw people out in the street? They gutted the middle class; the backbone of our country, and filled the pockets of rich to bursting…
They never had to have a 60% majority to pass anything in their eight years… Why do we? ‘Cuz we’re NICE?! Fluck that noise!!!
I noticed yesterday the Holder is busy getting wrongful convictions from the past year overturned… How is he ever going to get anything positive done if he’s just trying to get us back above water. We can’t spend the next four years bailing… It’s time to toss the grappling hooks over their rails and commandeer the ship of State and steer OUR course… that’s why Obama and the (near) super-majority were elected!!! At this point I’m tempted take up a collection to pay for a male ‘escort’ to allow himself to be caught with Joe Lieberman… Heck, if I had the money I’d buy the boy and the camera myself!!! : )
First time poster… Good thing I hold back on my opinions, huh? ; )