Booman takes issue with a timeline I wrote on the history of triggers and the public option. He says (rightly) that I put “February” on an entry that should have been “January” — Sam Stein told me at one point about conversations he heard in February about Rahm pushing triggers, and said he had written about it. When I went looking for the link I found the post referencing January instead and didn’t change the date.
BooMan then adopts the same argument that right wingers used to refute the Texas Air National Guard story about George Bush, which has become an Obama White House staple: if a source can be discredited or the reporting contains minor errors that in no way affect the validity of the central claim, this should nonetheless become the focus and the story should be dismissed entirely. And so, because Sam Stein didn’t write his story until July we’re supposed to conclude that Sam’s a liar, or it didn’t happen, or there’s not enough evidence to believe it happened, and therefore it’s “dishonest” to claim that Rahm was floating the idea of triggers in January. It’s also apparently “totally dishonest” to accept the word of reliable journalists that the “anonymous sources” they are relying on for information are credible.
In a perfect world, nobody would rely on anonymous sources. And frequently, journalist do so in order to allow them to make accusations that are false that they won’t have to stand behind when they later turn out to be false. But at that point, you have to look and see if the claim is credible. And there’s absolutely no evidence Sam is reporting anything that isn’t true here, as BooMan implies when he attacks the veracity of Sam’s story. The fact that the White House communicates with reporters regularly only “on background” and insists on anonymity is something that bothers BooMan not at all — in fact, he is eager to capitalize it when stories that come out don’t represent his rosy view of Obama.
Matt Taibbi says that he was warned that the TANG defense would be the White House strategy in response to his piece on the big bank giveaway:
When we went to print with the latest Rolling Stone piece about Obama’s economic hires, a couple of my sources advised me to expect some nastiness in the way of a response from Obama apologists. One jokingly suggested that there would be a waiting period to see if anyone even read the piece first, and only if there was enough negative buzz would I start getting hit with the charges of being an irresponsible conspiracy theorist, factually sloppy, and so on.
And sure enough, Tim Fernholz’s piece attacking Taibbi came out in the American Prospect on Friday. (Running the TANG defense and attacking the President’s critics seems to be a Prospect specialty these days.)
There are a couple of things going on here — one, a White House strategy of using the TANG defense when they don’t have any way to substantively refute something that could hurt Obama’s popularity. It’s pretty insane to assert that Taibbi is wrong in saying Obama is too cozy with Wall Street. But Fernholz attempts to delegitimize Taibbi on the basis of “you’re not from our world, you just don’t know the rules, and therefore your critique is invalid.”
Taibbi made minor errors that should have been caught by a fact checker. I’m guessing Rolling Stone, like most publications, has cut back on staff. But I question why these details are anyone’s big takeaway from the piece. Or perhaps more rightly, why they are the big takeaway in a “liberal” publication like the Prospect.
But the second thing that’s happening is the White House manipulation of those who heavily invested emotionally in the Obama campaign and in his success. These supporters understandably don’t want to believe anything bad about him, and are going to give him the benefit of the doubt — even when he doesn’t deserve it.
Those who venerated Bush because he was a morally upright and strong evangelical-warrior-family man and revere Palin as a common-sense Christian hockey mom are similar in kind to those whose reaction to Obama is dominated by their view of him as an inspiring, kind, sophisticated, soothing and mature intellectual. These are personality types bolstered with sophisticated marketing techniques, not policies, governing approaches or ideologies. But for those looking for some emotional attachment to a leader, rather than policies they believe are right, personality attachments are far more important. They’re also far more potent. Loyalty grounded in admiration for character will inspire support regardless of policy, and will produce and sustain the fantasy that this is not a mere politician, but a person of deep importance to one’s life who — like a loved one or close friend or religious leader — must be protected and defended at all costs.
These are sophisticated marketing techniques. And they’re being cynically run by sophisticated people (who know they’re peddling bullshit) on the not-so-sophisticated (who believe what they want to believe). The question with regard to those peddling the TANG defense is always going to be: are they playing the role of bullshit artist, or the dupe?




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jesus, this is really good
Agreed, Jane, Booman’s TANG defense in no way affects the merits of your pieces. But what if backroom negotiations for healthcare began soon after the election, and by New Year’s Snowe had already made clear to the White House that she (by far the most likely Republican vote for HCR) would be a non-starter without a trigger? It’s easy to see why they’d have to at least consider it, given the fact that the WH didn’t even have 60 Democrats at that point, and that of course includes unreliable sellouts like Lieberman and Nelson.
So, I do think you’ve conclusively proved that Rahm and the WH have been pushing for triggers all year long. What I don’t think you’ve proved is that this is the result of ObamaRahma not caring about true health care reform, instead of the less-bad explanation that they’re very cautious and too deferential to process.
And what if little fairies flew into the White House and sprinkled everyone with pixie dust and made the suggestion of triggers that way?
So what you’re saying is that Sam Stein is a liar because Olympia Snowe might have done something that there is no evidence that she ever did, but plenty of documentation that the White House did.
BTW, you’ve never explained what it is you do for a living that allows you to be here at the top of every thread that challenges one of the myths the White House is pushing that day. Seven days a week, all day long. Always with caveats to establish what a good liberal you are, then a strong reinforcement of White House oppo.
Pretty slick marketing technique.
Let’s deconstruct, just for fun:
We’re all a family here at FDL! (I’ve heard you say that more than once — reinforce identification with the tribe so they don’t turn on you.)
Completely fanciful hypothetis, no evidence presented….
It’s EASY to see, AT LEAST CONSIDER…persuasion language, kinda goes down like honey…60 DEMOCRATS…reasserts the White House fantasy that they’re only doing this because 60, and not 51, are necessary….UNRELIABLE SELLOUTS LIKE LIEBERMAN AND NELSON…again, reinforce tribal identification by asserting common enemy.
Conclusion drawn based on acceptance of hypothesis as fact, nice switcher-oo…
Preemptively neutralize criticism that you’re just an apoligist….”I’m willing to criticize too!”
Pretty slick. Almost no identifying information ever given about yourself, no stories of why you are here or your background, personal anecdotes, just timely appearances and P.R. 101 language.
What is it you say you do again?
Why is it a fairy dust theory to suggest that Rahm would have begun the health care strategy by talking to key people like Snowe, Baucus, and Schumer and concluded that he’d need a trigger if he was going go get these dinosaurs to do anything? I guess your theory is that Rahm actually led with his own original plan (trigger) and set about trying to sell it to everyone – I’d think you more than anyone would know that Rahm doesn’t have the balls to do that. But it’s certainly possible, and I want to know which it is.
I genuinely appreciate the efforts of you, Sam, and others to expose Rahm’s role, which is probably the reason for what you call “caveats”. I just want someone to go that last step…The smoking gun would be something like proof that Rahm first initiated the talk of triggers with Snowe and not vice versa. To my knowledge, no one has gone this last step, but I’m hoping you will.
My only interest is the truth – is Obama really doing the best he can given a shitty time for our country and a shitty Senate, or is he just capitulating to shit because he’s a bad leader? I don’t think all of the evidence is in, so right now I’m still on the fence. But if anyone is likely to convince me, it’s you…that’s why I’ve spent a lot of time here in the past few weeks as health care reaches an endgame…sometimes I have a lot of free time, I’m a musician.
Hmmm, I didn’t see this other post about the same subject we’re talking about (Rahm vs. Snowe). This comment about triggers being mentioned by Gergen on a This Weak broadcast that Rahm was on right after the election just may be the best evidence I’ve seen yet that Rahm started the sellout…I’m pretty much convinced. Not convinced that Rahm’s a douche – I’ve always known that – but that this was pretty much Obama’s strategy. Well, at least it looks like it’s blowing up in their face, because I doubt they’re getting 60 votes for anything. Which means reconciliation and likely no triggers, thanks in part to you.
The Taibbi piece is giving progressive bloggers a lot of opportunity to ‘blow up’ career administration Obamabots.
This morning on Eschaton, a ‘DLC troll’ regular, rootless-e, (who used to comment here IIRC) imploded into a stinky mess. Every critique of the Administration is couched as defeatism. She is the great omnipresent defender.
As this morning’s:
“My nonstop attempts to counter the “fuck it, we’ve lost, there is no point” program of the left marks me as a police agent or worse.?”
A sample response:
“There’s no point [in arguing with her]. Any difference of opinion is a violation of some damn rule we didn’t know we were signing on for. All I know is that between Afghanistan, health care, and this financial industry bullshit, no, I’m not particularly interested in sitting down and shutting up and being a good little soldier.I’m interested in policy, not ideology. (Molly Ivors)
just sayin’
and good for Jane! Thanks for this post.
What does TANG stand for?
The Alabama National Guard
thanks
That “trigger” Gergen was talking about was something separate.
Isn’t TANG the Texas Air National Guard?
How so? What he’s fundamentally talking about is triggering reform to kick in after a few years which is the same as the Rahm/Snowe trigger for the public option. Sure he didn’t get into specifics as to what pulls the trigger, but of course neither has there been any specific trigger that the Senators have formally considered…shit, half of them don’t even know what Reid sent to the CBO.
Sure OldFatGuy’s theory that Gergen thought up the trigger is a bit of a stretch. Could be that Rahm thought it up like you say. But I maintain it’s quite plausible that at this point Rahm had already heard about Snowe’s trigger.
What a pain in the rear, eh, Jane? It’s interesting. At the height of the primaries, I began deleting those bookmarked links to sites that had an All_In_For_Obama flavor about them. I’ve not added very many of them back in. Booman being one. I suppose, once you’ve made an All_In investment, it’s hell placing oneself in the position where ignoring sunk costs might be the rational – if painful – decision. At that point, caught between ignoring sunk costs or shooting the messenger, the ego investment in the cost is higher than the ego investment in the messenger. Ergo, shoot the messenger. As a denizen of Glenn’s threads, I’m getting used to the strategy.
It is also interesting, that the strategy for deflecting the message, is pretty consistently to find something, anything, in the message that can be challenged… AND FOCUS ON THAT ITEM LIKE YOUR LIVE DEPENDED ON IT. Ahem. If it were a great big issue, like identifying something happened in 2008 vs 2009, or was a consequence of invading Iraq vs invading Afghanistan, or was at Cheney’s direction as opposed to Biden’s, I can imagine all kinds of credibility issues. But, for example, James Rubin vs James Rubin is an error that can be made, and then corrected. Damage to the narrative? Near zero. So, the fuss is about what…, exactly?
I haven’t the foggiest idea why some folks find it so deadly threatening to challenge Obama – even when you voted for him. I’m coming to decide that there are liberals and there are partisan Democrats. I’m finding the partisan Democrats to be as intellectually and morally bankrupt as the Bush apologists were. Lots of people with their head buried in the sand. And, when your head is stuffed in the sand, you know where your butt is, right?
Glad to see that at FDL no one has their butt in the air so as to keep their head in the sand. Press on, Jane. Press on.
What we know for sure is that no later than the spring, and very likely as early as January (based on Sam Stein’s single unnamed source), Emanuel was signaling that the White House did not object in principle to triggers. He was acting, at minimum, as the functional equivalent of April Glaspie, indicating that the administration would take no position should Saddam Hussein invade Kuwait and institute a trigger delay on its public insurance program.
The precise provenance of the trigger ploy is uncertain, and in my view, unimportant. It’s such a generic obstructive tactic (cf the Medicare “reform” act of 2003), that it could well have had multiple godparents. Certainly, AHIP would have been remiss had it not come up with it independently early on in its internal war-gaming sessions.
To document that Emanuel was floating the idea as early as January, perhaps even before, does not prove that he originated it. This does not make him any less of a rat bastard.
Jane, I want to have your babies!
“And sure enough, Tim Fernholz’s piece attacking Taibbi came out in the American Prospect on Friday. (Running the TANG defense and attacking the President’s critics seems to be a Prospect specialty these days.)”
They’re washed up. They fell out of their niche and they can’t compete with the NYTimes. This should pretty much put the final nails in what’s become a fetid coffin running the same chicken scratch memos 48 hours a day.
Cheers.
I see that Matt Yglesias has joined the pile-on against Taibbi with a pretty obnoxious piece that fails to acknowledge the vacuity and dishonesty of the Fernholz attack and seems to argue that Obama’s appointments are meaningless and his bully pulpit worthless.
Thanks.
We should call this the Bush Defense Bush always wanted to make history so lets start writing it.
Another hatchet job was done on Taibbi in Salon. Go here:
Professional jealously, perhaps? Dipshits.
The Elite really do think Reality will conform to their biases?
Hmmm, my dad was a musician, usually played 9pm – 2am, rarely got up before noon and taught piano in the afternoons. Just to make a living as a union musician. I didn’t get to see much of my dad.
Greenwald as quoted by Jane above:
He describes one side of the great divide. The other is of course those of us who are committed to policy.
Makes it a bit easier for me to understand the failure of reasoning. Wish I knew enough to know how to really break through some of that. The GOPers obviously see belittling and disgracing their adversaries is the way to go. And we know it can work partially, but it actually enhances polarization.
I think Jane is spot on about mikesong. Suspiciously slick and unemotional.
Lizard Brain stuff wether its GOP or Dem we brake the hold they have on them with one word… betrayal. We drove the idea that Bush was a failure at Everything War, the Economy, Katrina, Terry Schiavo, No Child left Behind, reducing the National debt etc.
We pick a word that symbolizes failure and we mention it in every attack the TANG defense only wins you a battle not the war as Bush found out.
Excellent post.
The affective personality type may be among those involved, and perhaps sold by their own pap.
For many, it is probably a coping mechanism.
Good point how many of us are there? I’m guessing that we are naturally turned off by Lizard Brain manipulation so for every Lizard Obama gets he loses one of us and of course inflames a GOP lizard.
This might explain Bush and the GOP’s continuing low poll numbers. Ride your Lizard lose us policy voters and lose the enemy lizard.
Get in line. (Your statement made me LOL)
Thanks for the link. The Salon piece by Andrew Leonard is at least a more coherent critique than those offered up by Fernholz or Yglesias. In pointing out that it’s a stretch for Taibbi to characterize Austan Goolsbee as an economic populist, Leonard echoes a comment by montanamaven from the other day.
Next chapter:
Obama yells at banksters in public. Then gives away the U.S. treasury to them in private.
So is Booman really going to keep up a war with Jane and us or is Booman going to admit a mistake?
If Booman and who ever is feeding Booman the information pushes us we can link Obama to words like betrayal and failure over everything like the bank bailout which it seems we the tax payers will never get paid back our money with interest.
We can point out the Max unemployment Obama’s people thought we would get was 9% we are at 10%. Passing National Healthcare could not do it.
Should we start a list of Obama’s mounting failure’s as he goes against our advice? Should we point out just how well the Conventional Wisdom served Bush?
This may ‘splain it.
Roger Hickey on Our Future Today Link
Peterson is Johnny-One-Note. He’s been on the deficit kick forever, regardless of economic circumstances. A true brain dead idealogue.
It’s Monday morning. Jane Hamsher comes out swinging. The fight continues.
The Obama disciples recognize effective story telling and Matt Taibbi has a gift for being able to effectively communicate;when Taibbi choose to communicate or ‘weave the threads together’~ which a lot of us have seen~ which shows a pattern of pandering to Wall St insiders by this administration he became a threat to the ‘narrative’that is the ‘brand’ Barack Obama.
Obama graded himself with a B+…..wish I had had him as a prof in college~talk about liberal grading system!~….there are days when I think a C-/D+ is generous for him considering he ran on a CHANGE we can BELIEVE in platform
All Taibbi did was point that out to a large audience:where is the change if Bob Rubin is still pulling strings?
Can we get so lucky Billions for War but now the GOP and Dems want to steal our Social Security, Medicare etc?
If we run Progressive Candidates on this with enough money we can run the table.
The trigger is a part of theMedicare- PhRMA deal of 2006 under Bush people. That is why we know it will never be pulled. The trigger has been around for a looooooooong time.
The one A Obama earned was in SCOTUS class.
I’ve always thought that the best thing Obama has going for himself, Tang-wise, is his deep, mellifluous voice. He’s also tall.
I am a little puzzled about the animosity to mikesong, bordering on nastiness, from both Jane and you. I find his arguments well reasoned and calm. That is not to say I agree with him or automatically accept all of his comments at face value. I recall another specific dripping-with-sarcasm takedown of someone else who disagreed with Jane not long ago, accusations of “paid troll” included. I cannot recall who was the target that time, but it was someone who had been an FDL regular and I was quite surprised.
I come here because the discourse is intellectually satisfying and I learn a lot and unpleasant attacks on commenters aren’t usually tolerated. FWIW I am personally disappointed when these takedowns occur. JMHO.
Lets look at Obama’s poll numbers anywhere near 80%? Even if we grade on a curve and the GOP’s poll numbers are included on the curve would that bring Obama any where near 80%?
What if we brought Darth into the curve could Obama make 80% then?
An excellent post, but I have two questions:
* How does what’s called the “TANG defense” here differ from the classical “smear-the-messenger” defense that is such a knee-jerk response of groups such as AIPAC?
* What does “TANG” have to do with it? (I’m somehow missing the metaphor.)
oops – 2003
Well said.
Thanks for the input. I apologize for offending you and will reflect on what you say…
I understand it is so easy to misinterpret motivation because of poor email syntax and plead guilty to more than once being on one end or the other. In those circumstances most of us try to clarify and explain when queried.
I hope mikesong will take the queries in good humor and and tell us more about himself.
Ah, the smell of smug bastards in the morning.
Given we are on the internet, you must be referring to yourself.
So, I do think you’ve conclusively proved that Rahm and the WH have been pushing for triggers all year long. What I don’t think you’ve proved is that this is the result of ObamaRahma not caring about true health care reform, instead of the less-bad explanation that they’re very cautious and too deferential to process.
Cautious and deferential? How about stupid and cowardly? If you knew what you concede that “Rahm and theWH” knew — that there was going to be a battle royal — why would you start out with bargaining away what is most important to you? And bargain more and more away at every step? Why cave at the very beginning and all along the way?
Why not threaten to push single payer through without their support? Why not threaten to veto any bill without a public option? Why not at least negotiate from a position of strength, for christ’s sake?
Why fucking roll over at the beginning and let Baucus, Grassely, and Snowe et al ass fuck you every step of the way? That is just childish.
So when do we start talking about primary challenges for Obama?
Dan Rather got hold of some documents that purported to show that Bush was AWOL from the TX ANG. Some of the supporting documents were alleged to be forgeries.
The facts that the original (not supporting) documents showed were not disputed, but the entire disaster ended up costing Rather his position despite the facts that the documents DID show; that GWB abandoned his duties during a time of war, and should have been imprisoned, but because of the influential position his family held, he was discharged honorably.
Instead the whole mess was tarred as a set of forgeries, despite that most of the documents were valid copies of originals, and some good evidence that the “forgeries” were recreations of documents that the TANG wass required to retain but destroyed during GWB’s run for TX governor when the question was first brought up.
You didn’t read my posts if you thought it was my theory that Gergen thought up triggers. Admittedly I posted it yesterday in a “snarky” fasion, but that wasn’t my theory at all. That episode of This Week was aired Nov, 9, 2008, right after the election. And their only guest, and main interview of the day, was Rahm Emanual.
And I said it my posts that I find it “funny” that the word triggers as it relates to health care appears on a show in 2008 that the main interviewee is happens to Rahm Emanual.
Perhaps my snark wasn’t plain enough. I believe the folks on This Week do what other hosts on other shows do. They spoke with Emanual off the air before the day of the interview. And then the day of the interview one of the regulars on This Week also mentions triggers for health care.
I DON’T think it was a coincidence.
“Obama yells at banksters in public”.
Called kabuki. De minimis. Dragging some distracting skunk across the trail. Not convincing.
And definitely not rising to an emotional level consistent with the level of suffering of the unemployed and economically battered. My 2 cents: no emotion = no understanding/commitment given what’s at stake. That’s what bully pulpit is about; communicating conviction with emotional force.
Regarding Mikesong’s identity and purpose posting here:
In response to his claim that he has lots of free time because he’s a musician, Southern Dragon said,
TalkingStick followed with this remark prompted by Jane’s comment @ 3 and 4,
I don’t know Mikesong’s real identity and I certainly don’t know what his agenda is. I don’t need to know or want to know.
This site is a marketplace where ideas are shared and discussed. Jane’s reference to the intellectual emptiness of the TANG defense makes perfect sense and I agree that its use against her amounts to a tacit admission by Booman that he has nothing better to say.
Now, I’ve made my position about Rahm and Obama very clear. They’re lying scumbags. I don’t know if Rahm was the first to mention triggers, but he pushed them during the Medicare Part D debacle, so I’m going to presume he did initiate them for HCR, unless convincing evidence to the contrary appears. Either way, he’s still a scumbag.
Whether he did or not, his stink is all over the disgraceful mess HCR has turned into. I believe he and Obama all along intended only to benefit the insurance companies and Big PhRMA at the expense of everyone else, and if their effort fails, they will keep the financial contributions and blame liberals and progressives.
We need to pin the blame on that part of the donkey’s anatomy where Rahm and Obama reside, the ASS.
As for Mikesong, let’s keep in mind that his true identity and his motivations for posting here aren’t important issues.
Let ideas speak for themselves.
bystander,
I was really disillusioned when MoveOn.org decided to go “all in” for Obama, too. I unsubscribed from their emails then, too, as well as some others.
Jane:
January or February… surely, some slippage in a timeline is understandable when one is using anonymous sources.
As for Sam Stein and Ryan Grim, both at HuffPost. I confess that I look to them first for news and analysis on some of these urgent issues where congress is only obfuscating. Also, I know that Dan Froomkin is there as a guiding force, and that he’ll always call something what it is.
lol, still at it, huh? I thought he was gonna answer via email??
Well, I think it’s pretty clear anyway. IMO.
I wasn’t aiming specifically at you. I don’t recall any of us having to provide biographical information to justify our viewpoints. (Except, of course, mikesong and that other commenter Jane called a “paid troll.”)
If someone is claiming inside knowledge or special expertise in the subject at hand, it would be enlightening, and I’ve seen many commenters describe theirs when commenting. But we shouldn’t have to prove bona fides to express our opinion or even our reasoned analyses.
*gets off soapbox*
Apparently, Boo has issued a response.
The debate continues: http://www.boomantribune.com/story/2009/12/14/10475/933
Well said, Mason. I agree 100%.
I got a bit of this for challenging Jane a couple of times. It didn’t stop me from continuing to argue my points, and I don’t think it would stop anyone else who cares about the issues either.
I wouldn’t worry too much about it.
I agree with you mostly.
But let’s do a what if, OK?
What if the Republican Party paid a guy (and NO, I DON’T THINK MIKESONG IS A PAID REPUBLICAN TROLL, THIS IS A WHAT IF, OK?) to show up here all day, every day, to continuously post in well worded, slick, market tested language to argue almost every point of almost every post by, say, Empty Wheel. This pretend person is in fact paid by someone close to Dick Cheney as Cheney is (in our what if fantasy) worried that EmptyWheel’s continued work is gonna land him in real legal trouble. So he pays this professional, using well tested means, to throw a bunch of mud in the water.
So, would we or would we not here at FDL have some right to now that was his motives? (Again, in this WHAT IF MAKE BELIEVE CASE). I REPEAT, I AM NOT SAYING, INSINUATING, OR MISLEADING ANYTHING IN THIS POST ABOUT MIKESONG. I feel like I have to make that pretty clear, even though it’s the God’s honest truth. This is just a what if post.
So, what if that happened to EmptyWheel’s posts? Should we have a right to know that posters motives or not?
I think we probably do, but I’m not sure. Like I said I mostly agree with you, but…. guess I’d like to hear your opinion of this “what if fantasy” if you didn’t mind taking the time to answer. Thanks.
Oh, and for the record, I post here all the time too.
I’m unemployed (on disability), can’t get around much, and my “outlet” to the world is basically this big machine I’m sitting in front of. My past includes six years in the U.S. Army, followed by 4-5 years at the Pentagon (where I worked in the SCI “blackworld)), followed by bartending (!?) while going back to school for 5 years, followed by opening up my own business as an acountant/tax preparer while working for an accounting firm in Great Falls, VA, followed by managing a pediatrician’s office and a non-profit American Legion Post (managed the bar operations).
Been disabled for the recent past.
Nothing to hide. That’s me, in all it’s ugliness. A failed life in one post. :)
Heh. My dad was a union musician as well. He wouldn’t have tolerated sitting in front of the computer because he would have bitched that the electrical humm was out of tune. Guaranteed.
you’re breaking my heart there, man. does it help to consider that there’s no such thing as a “failed life.” only a belief in a failed life.
Word! I love it, I bow in your virtual direction, o sister, my Sister Jane.
This is exactly what I’m on about. We’re getting jacked around by state-of-the-art propaganda, running on the power of myths: to tap into our most powerful emotions: dreams, hopes, fears, terrors, etc.
Maybe I should point out something strange about our psychophysiology.
All motive power comes from our old brain, not the neocortex. We all run on “impulse power.” A person without emotions also wouldn’t move at all; just look at the word, emotion.
So all our behaviors are energized (agonized, to use the jargon), then the neocortex shuts them all down (antagonizes them); we behave by disinhibiting precisely the behaviors we desire. Or so we hope.
This means that messages that speak directly to our emotions can jack us around, and we won’t have a rational reason for it. That Greenwald quote speaks directly to this phenomenon. Palin’s supporters aren’t morons, they’re getting jacked. Let’s remember that she’s a stalking horse for the lesser Kristol and his gang of ignoble liars.
Likewise, Obama’s propagandists are jacking the more emotional among us with myths about his person, fostering a wholly inappropriate (to a democratic republic) cult of personality. Were conditioned to be the loyal subjects of a political master of the great cosmic cash-register–spectators, fans only–instead of self-sovereign citizens.
That’s why I say, jacking electorates with carefully crafted myths is the state of the art in manufacturing consent.
Jane and Glenn point out the same marketing techniques that Hollywood has used for decades to convince the ticket or dvd buying public that their best friend or squeeze is Cary Grant, Harrison Ford or Matt Damon; Claudette Colbert, Michelle Pfeiffer or Anne Hathaway, when they or the system that creates their image would never, ever give you a look or a backstage pass. Similar techniques convince the same public that they should be loyal to economic and social policies that keep them on the bottom rung of the ladder.
Look both ways before crossing the political roadway, dreaming of those “policies” on the other side, or you may get by a marketing truck.
you guys are harsh. being a political animal and actually giving a rat’s ass are not mutually exclusive. just definitely not a job for everybody.
Oops. Thanks. I had forgotten that TANG was the acronym for the Texas Air National Guard.
For decades smear-the-messenger has been used very effectively by right-wing PR firms.
i’m sorry, in what way are people being “jacked?” who drank the koolaid here? really. i am not clear.
What in the world would make that a failed life. Sounds like adventure to me.
So tell me. Ms Molly, how you can have “discourse (that) is intellectually satisfying” with tripe like the following -
So, I do think you’ve conclusively proved that Rahm and the WH have been pushing for triggers all year long. What I don’t think you’ve proved is that this is the result of ObamaRahma not caring about true health care reform, instead of the less-bad explanation that they’re very cautious and too deferential to process.
given that obviosuly triggers have to do with substance and not process?
Good stuff ad usual, Jane. Thank you.
Exactly.
I know a woman on welfare who voted for Reagan in 1980 on the grounds that he’d get rid of the welfare queens and then there’d be more for the truly needy like herself.
O is a corporate STOOGE. Just face it, man.
You’re contorting and nit-picking and splitting hairs and counting how many angels can dance on the head of a pin to try and avoid the obvious.
Yes. “Keep your eye on the ball.”
In my comment I was just trying to affirm the overall caveat that I think Jane was making, that being to remain aware of the slick PR tricks in political discourse. One of these being distraction by directing attention to some dissonant statement irrelevant to the core facts.
One could say I served that end in that my comment certainly got a lot of us off track. I promise it was not my intent.
Well said. Cheer up, OFG. There’s a lot of that going around these days. I’m vastly underemployed for a guy with a BA. Had a career in education destroyed by a misdemeanor pot bust. It’s hard enough for males to work with kids, who wants to take a chance on a guy in his forties with a “criminal” record? After No Child Left Behind was passed, I got a job as an on-line tutor. Took forever to clear the background checks. And then I was paid only 10 bucks an hour, as an “independent contractor.” It costs at least 15 an hour to afford rent.
Now I’m doing odd jobs, living with family in my forties, going through bankruptcy. But that’s only a description of my outer life.
There’s more to being human than is visible from across a room, eh?
How ’bout a Zen knock-knock joke?
KNOCK-KNOCK
(who’s there?)
BUDDHA!
(buddha who?)
KNOW! BUDDHA U!
Works for a lot of figures. Substitute a few, it’s fun.
KNOCK-KNOCK
(who’s there?)
GOD!
(god who?)
KNOW! GOD U!
KNOCK-KNOCK
(who’s there?)
OLDFATGUY!
(old fat guy who?)
KNOW! OLDFATGUY U!
Caution: Some aren’t as fun as others.
KNOCK-KNOCK
(who’s there?)
DETAINEE!
(detainee who?)
KNOW! DETAINEE U!
agreed.
touche and shalom.
And you can see Obama leaning well into ‘it’ with the call to Conyers whining about being demeaned. /meanie
http://www.weaselzippers.net/blog/2009/12/dem-john-conyers-says-he-received-a-call-from-fellow-marxist-barack-obama-because-he-heard-i-was-dem.html
Myths have the power to jack people into actions from which they would otherwise recoil in horror.
“In truth, whoever can make you believe absurdities can also make you commit atrocities.”–Voltaire, 1765
Symbols that speak directly to our psyches (“baseball, hot dogs, apple pie and Chevrolet”) very literally push our buttons. Advertising relies on it.
I voted for Obama. I remember being elated to discover that we elected a poet for president. But now I see how he’s using his impressive skills not to enlighten, but to jack us into ever more war.
The images and sounds coming from a TV are exactly analogous to a modem. We like to think we’re absolutely independent and rational, but we’re far from it.
Scott Horton described the Pentagon’s efforts at myth-making back in February of this year:
(Note that I updated the link to the AP report. The link in Horton’s post is broken.)
So what are those 27,000 “influence operators” up to right now? What use of them is the Obama admin making?
Add to that the 5 or 6 decades of “strategic domestic disinformation campaigns,” and you get an American psyche jacked to hell and back, stuck with the bill both ways. We don’t have very good contact with the real situation of the real world today. Yes, I’m saying we’re a bunch of nucking futs, but it’s not all our fault.
It is, however, still our responsibility, not to be fooled again and again. I like to think that’s what we’re doing here.
Forgot to link to Horton’s article in Harpers.org.
Pentagon Targeted and Mistreated Journalists, AP Head Charges
AP report on mistreatment of journalists
And one from Raw Story, for good measure.
Pentagon used psychological operations on US public, documents show
BTW, the so-called “climategate” is exatly a repeat of the TANG defense.
Yep. To a T.
Reading Booman’s latest, it would have been nice to have seen the word lobbyist or a mention of the secret meetings in the White House and deals with special interests at least once in his rant. And he likes to think that the Administration ‘allowed’ Pelosi to pass a robust public option. hmmmmmmm…
I think you and Jane were right on the money. There is something insincere here. I have argued, sometimes strenuously, with people on this site (including you.) But I have never doubted the sincerity of their beliefs or the honest place they come from.
With Mikesong I always feel like I am arguing with the finished product of an advertising agency or campaign consultant.
I could be wrong I guess, but that’s how it feels.
Jane, this is a great follow-up. The republicans have always been good at finding the cutoff point for people who just don’t want to know the truth, or to have it spoken of, and now Obama’s reading their playbook for doing that.
My 2c: A year from now we could be looking at utter political chaos, and we know who’s best at taking advantage of that.
Yes he can! Thanks for that. Imagine the shock of picking up the phone to hear the Leader of the Free World calling you out for “dissing” him. It would be a visceral shock.
That very emotional sensation would be enough to “move” someone in the desired direction. Looks like Conyers didn’t buy the BS. Good on him.
What I’m wondering now is, what moved him NOT to impeach?
Ray McGovern wrote something post-election that still haunts me.
Say what?! What exactly is that brand? Did it work on Obama? His many reversals (telecom immunity, keeping the thieves and torturers in charge, not releasing the photos, etc.) suggest, to me, that it’s working like a charm.
As a student of psychology, I want to know exactly how APA perverted my fair scientific art into weapons-grade propaganda.
I’m thinking the notorious neocon “crazies”, and their torturing pals at APA, are the prime suspects in many of our recent crimes against humanity.
Thanks for the kind words. I don’t get offended when Jane goes after me after I challenge her thinking – I take it as a sign we’re making progress.
I understood your tone, and I agree with you, it’s not quite open-and-shut proof of anything, but I do think you’ve done some good sleuthing that I will take into account.
Really good..
basic message for me
“watch what they do not what they say”
“actions speak louder than words”
This focus on insignificant mistakes is a tried and true method to distract.
The MSM seems to be terrified by what is going on in the blogosphere. They just seem to be unable to incorporate that they fucked up in a huge way in the run up to the invasion of Iraq. Are still doing it to a large degree with little to no focus on the I/P conflict, the push for taking out Iran by the I lobby and Israel, and the hundreds of thousands of deaths in Iraq. They just keep undermining their own professions.
wow, thanks for tossing in that tip of the hat to personal responsibility at the end.
it is not obama’s responsibility that some people attached a whole lot of unrealistic expectation to his candidacy or his person.
with all there is to deal with and the apparently massively understaffed divisions of the administration the fact that they haven’t taken on the pentagon over dubious hires. you think dealing with the unions is tough…
you seem like a guy who knows that there’s always so much more going on on levels not apparent so why are you so attached to extreme opinions about a guy that never told anyone that he was anything but a guy who, while he couldn’t walk on water, is a pretty damned strong swimmer. now, can he go the distance and get more comfortable about his intentions and his willingness to take some concerns to the mat…time will tell.
I guess I just got offended on your behalf. In particular, comment #4, which I found especially offensive coming from the blog owner to a commenter. But there is no point belaboring it.
(Play us some music and maybe we’ll all chill out. Unless, of course, you play metal or something. *G*)
It isn’t your “oops”. It’s up to the writer to bring the reader along, not to speak in code without explanation.
See also: veal pen.
Here’s how triggers can be made into process, not policy:
a) The WH started pushing a line a few months ago that we could set up a compromise in which we had a trigger but if it came into play, the public option would then be more robust than the trigger-less public option. This was to try to sell the progressive side of the caucus on triggers, and they also would have presumably negotiated that the trigger be an easily pulled one. And keep in mind that even the trigger-less public option was supposed to start in 2013, the same as the trigger. So, that’s a trigger constructed as a fig-leaf for the public option – process, not policy.
b) The trigger talk was also process if it was a half-hearted attempt to find a 60-vote solution when all along they expected that would likely fail and they’d switch to a triggerless 50 vote strategy in reconciliation, as is probably about to happen.
well, I did find it a little over the top, especially citing things that i never said such as “we are all a family”, but that’s ok.
Obama’s abominable speech at West Point was loaded with patriotic Americana symbols that Bush forever rendered trite and meaningless. I’ve trained myself to associate them with the beep-beep-beep sound of a garbage truck backing up to a Refuse Center.
Since I long ago chose not to play that game, I turned off the radio (I killed my TV years ago). Read his speech the next day. It contained just what I expected to find in a load of garbage.
I wish Obama would call me and complain about being demeaned.
We need to teach people how to recognize bullshit.
Jane is a fighter whose success here is a great inspiration. I don’t know what ‘progress’ you are finding from your ‘challenging’ here… BooMan appears to be an Obamabot and it looks like Atrios’ DLC troll, Rootless-e is a diarist there: [http://www.boomantribune.com/user/uid:5374/diary by rootless2]…(just sayin, rootie)
It’s a free country! Eradicate Obamabotulism now! Persuasion is a two way street, no doubt Mikesong, so may the best policy argument ‘win’.
I love knowbuddhau’s stepping up with the Pentagon domestic psychological warfare links. An Eschaton commenter, Doug, recently linked to a Rand Corp. whitepaper about stategizing domestic ‘lockdown’ or something. Scary.
how triggers can ‘be made into process’ not policy – WOW that is a bag of tricks? a game? a process? See how well it worked – wasted a lot of fucking time then…
Here’s trigger as policy:
Capitol Hill Watch | House Eliminates Medicare ‘Trigger’ in Rules Package
[Jan 07, 2009]
The House on Tuesday voted 242-181 to approve an operating rules package (H Res 5) that eliminates the Medicare trigger, which requires the president to submit a plan to contain Medicare costs if they reach a certain level, CQ Today reports. The trigger was approved as part of the 2003 Medicare law. Under the law, if 45% or more of the program’s funding comes from general tax revenues for two consecutive years, the president must submit to Congress legislation that would slow spending over a seven-year period and make the program financially stable. The trigger went into effect for the first time last year.
A one-line item included in the rules package states that the Medicare trigger “shall not apply.” In a release accompanying the package, House Majority Leader Steny Hoyer (D-Md.) said the trigger is “an ideologically driven target based on a misleading measure of Medicare’s financial health.” Hoyer’s office said that eliminating the trigger “will allow Congress to consider all options for improving Medicare financing to provide a balanced and equitable solution” (Armstrong, CQ Today, 1/6).
http://cc.bingj.com/cache.aspx?q=2003+medicare+trigger&d=4814516654441223&mkt=en-US&setlang=en-US&w=8ec0c1ba,214e3eea
As someone who knows at least a little about document production, I have to point out that, no matter what the MSM said at the time or since, none of the sources for the TANG story were ever conclusively “discredited” in the sense that they were disproved or exposed as frauds. The “evidence” that documents were forged was laughable on its face. The evidence clearly showed that Bush cronies had, in fact, tried destroy a paper trail that they didn’t undertand. What they left in–among other things his failure to take a flight physical–was pretty much conclusive.
Word to you, TCU! There’s nothing quite like betrayal detected to arouse anger.
I just found a great comment about he lizard brain stuff. It’s from Matt Taibbi’s Sunday article, Obamania, by bowtiejack.
That’s exactly what I’m on about. Only it’s not a lifeless artifact of reductive psychology (“confabulation”). Myths are what make us most human.
Propaganda, powered by myths, is carefully crafted to jack us to hell and back while sticking us with the bill both ways. And the Pentagon, APA, and intelligence agencies are decades ahead of us.
I think it very significant that Joseph Campbell lectured for decades at State’s Foreign Service Institute. That knowledge alone should send a chill up the spine of anyone familiar with the famous Power of Myth interviews with Bill Moyers.
It’s plain as day, to this poet: someone has taken Campbell’s powerful lessons, on the powers of myth, to heart, and has been using that awesome power to power weapons-grade domestic propaganda.
Thanks.
Could you amplify on this. Progress toward what? Bi-partisanship? Health insurance reform?
Well said, Mason. I gave up TV long ago, starting when I was the caretaker of a private island and had only crappy reception of Canadian stations. I don’t miss it at all.
Sure, I still watch a few things now and then. But what’s most striking is the blatant manipulation of the ads. As I said before, the images and sounds act exactly like a modem.
I did something similar after Obama’s speech. I looked back at Harold Pinter’s 2005 Nobel laureate lecture in Literature. He notes the same thing you do. Pinter was dead on about the use of mythic symbols (most esp. the trope, “the American people”). “It’s a scintillating stratagem. Language is actually employed to keep thought at bay.”
I can’t recommend that speech highly enough. The video is especially powerful.
“We need to teach people how to recognize bullshit.”
And be patient in doing so, because a lot of people have been thoroughly conditioned not to smell it when it’s right under their nose.
I just watched all 46 minutes of that. And am still emotional.
Brought me back years, memories, anger, despair.
I’d say it should be required viewing, but I’d bet a good 95% of Americans couldn’t sit past 5 minutes of it.
Just wanted to thank you. I had never seen it, and am glad I did. Thanks.
You’re welcome, very glad you liked it.
Thanks, for the link. I recall that speech and I want to revisit it.
Synchronicity, symbols, myths, the collective unconscious, and the emerging consensus in biocentrism as the new paradigm give me reason and faith in a better tomorrow.
Progress towards Jane sharpening her criticism as one of Obama’s most vocal critics, and helping to educate me in the process.
I don’t agree with you or your sickness.
Like your suggestion, nay, call to attack Senator Lieberman’s wife because he doesn’t play your way, some may research you and your family and make a call for others to attack you.
That would be a true and utter shame. Once less idiot goat herder…
Good luck.
Jane,why not have Matt Taibbi ON FIREDOGLAKE period. All this chatter about what Obama is about he going to do the same thing on CLIMATE CHANGE.At the same time how do we defeat senators Liberman,Nelson,Landrieu and Lincoln period. I read the article on Huffingtonpost why did you not have it on FIREDOGLAKE By the way has anyone seen the WARNING on frontline which is a documentary of how we got in this financial mess in the first place. Bottom line I am having my doubt about Obama and Co.
Oh, my… just a few months ago:
FDL Book Salon Welcomes Matt Taibbi, The Great American Bubble Machine
I missed it,but that not a reason for not putting him on again. However, I think the article has given me an insight as how Obama will operate and getting things done. The questions are numerous for example will he ask for the resgination or get rid of his economic team period? By the way Clinton got blindsided by his economic team also by the deregluation of our banking system which got us in this mess in the first place.The same problem is going to happen with climate change as healthcare reform. The question is what do we do given the circumstances in which we find ourselves? In any case I am not discourage,but actions must be taken on a number of fronts to insure that we get what we want for the common good. We, that mean all progressives,liberals,independents must come together to assess Obama first year in a clear cut fashion to make sure we understand where Obama is coming from and take him and others to task period. In other words it time to see things as they are not as we wish them to be and act accordingly and deal with the facts and truth not fiction period.