In order for a bill without one to pass, it would mean the complete collapse of the progressive caucus. It would be proof positive that they are bereft of integrity and nothing but placeholders in strong Democratic districts who say the right things when it doesn’t matter, but abandon their principles and facilitate the corporatist agenda when it does.

Hell no…! There’s still fight left in my critter… I’ll betcha that Mazie Hirono was one of the 65…! ;-)

I guess it’s time to call Lynn Woolsey and tell her what’s up. She’ll probably vote no, but I better make sure.

What part of the medicare buy in is the public option? What percentage of the details in the most recent public option legislation are taken care of by the medicare buy in?

Why is Howard Dean supporting this? Is he? Can he come for a visit to FDL to explain his understanding?

And so Pelosi signals the stunning defeat of Democrats – WHO HAVE FAILED THE AMERICAN PEOPLE – in next Nov’s midterm elections.

The best way forward is to formulate strategy for getting more progressives elected to Congress.

Why is Howard Dean supporting this?

So are Anthony Weiner, Alan Grayson and many others…

Each has their own special bs unique to him or her, but overall the so-called “moderates” created the impression that progressives had to blink or health care reform would totally fail and Dems would lose next Nov.

But the truth is that now they’ve assured massive losses next year.

Also, I think the so-called “moderates” were full of shit and would have caved had Obama, Reid and Pelosi really wanted them to.

Matt Taibbi and Luke Mitchell (Harper’s/no paywall for this one) read (present and past tense, respectively) the tea leaves. Why do our Congressional Reps think we’re stupid?

It feels like they are looking at timing. Don’t give the hypocritical teabagging, cross wearing, two faced “pro life for american fetuses, fuck if they ever have health coverage or can get to college folks” another chance during the break to do more damage. Get this through and then add more pressure once this is through. Incremental steps.

Are we going to have this fail and be set back another decade or go for the steps? I don’t know I am confused. But am old enough to watch health care reform stagnate for “decades”

I can see some logic to all of this…hate to say it here at FDL

Weiner is Schumer’s protege – it is reported Schumer was principally responsible for the mish mash sent to CBO

Grayson’s bottom line appears to be anything that will reduce the number of ameicans dying from lack of insurance – more so than wanting to pass something, anything with HCR on it

Howard Dean has backed waaay off his initial enthusiasm – all his current statements of support are heavy with qualifiers and proviso’s

And all Rahm thinks about is how much money will the Dem’s have for campaigning; his take is that with no alternative but Repugs, Dem’s will turn out because they are afraid of what would happen if the Repugs gain control of Congress.

Personally, it might take the Repug’s truly driving the car into the ditch before the American public gets off it’s lazy ass and decides that Washington and New York ARE the problem. And ,yes, New York for it’s total dependence on taxation of Wall Street for it’s governance.

When someone asked Woolsey last week, she wouldn’t commit.

Damn. This just sucks big time. I am 59 so theoretically this might help me if I can get Medicare early. But it is not me I am worried about. I have got decent insurance because my wife is a nurse for a hospital. Its my kids and my grandkid and soon to be second grandkid.

My kids (ages 29 and 25) can’t afford insurance. One has it through her employer but that could easily change tomorrow if times get worse.

And any program that gives employers incentives to keep wages low or reduce wages (even if employers don’t reduce hourly pay they can reduce hours worked) so they don’t have to pay premiums, is just the wrong approach. It will mean less income and more poverty.

When are we as a people going to rise up against the corporatists? When will we figure out that big money is the reason all of us (left and right) are headed for the poorhouse and we are all in the same boat together?

Just called. Still won’t commit. Travesty!

DON’T VOTE! That is the only way we can send a message. We won’t primary anyone – it doesn’t work. Stay home in ’10 and ’12. There ARE no good Dems – and the only thing we represent to them is a veal pen – of votes. If we stay home, they lose. Specially Blue Dogs. Big majorities don’t help, and Obama … well, better left unsaid. Be a FORTY PERCENTER – let them know from now til Nov of 2012 – we ain’t coming out to vote for you. Please let me know if there is ANY more effective strategy?

I sent sternly worded messages to Maloney & Hinchey. Might have a chance with the latter, but Maloney will go with the flow.

My read:

MAJOR news: Grivalja sounds quite likely to vote NO. If just a few CPC members agree with him – which is a near certainty – this latest compromise is dead until it gets more liberal.

Very minor news: Pelosi repeats the same talking point the Democrats have said all along: she’s open to something better than the public option but she’ll have to see it before she believes it. She said nothing about the likelihood of her caucus accepting a bill without a public option. So, yesterday Pelosi was the strongest defender of the public option amongst the leadership, and today nothing’s changed.

Between the war escalation, the trillions of dollars given to bankers, the naked pandering to the banking lobby, and the health insurance and pharmaceutical cartels, the Obama team and the Congressional leadership have shown us in just one short year why it is that we should never vote for the party’s candidates ever, ever again.

Obama and the Democrats have done more to defeat liberal/leftists/progressives in one year than Bush managed to do in eight years.

It really boggles the mind that we continue to be bamboozled by the crooks we elect. At least the T-baggers are saying fuck you to their Republican Mastrs (Rassmussen poll showed them whipping the GOP, yup!)

In particular, Nancy Pelosi, during the Bush years, gave Bush almost his entire agenda. Now, during the Obama years, she seems to be giving Bush almost his entire agenda. This naked fraud of a leader and populist progressive should be evicted from office if there is any justice in the world.

This is all there is, pursuit of power for it’s own sake!

The Revolution will be streamed.

Grayson’s gonna vote for this sack of shit, right?? “It’ll save lives.”

Nice try, but I’m still going to vote – just not for lame, Blue Dogs and Conservadems. Primaries are the answer.

I am advocating as much as anyone that progressives shouldn’t vote for Democrats unless they’re real progressives, and to get over the “lesser of two evils” thing. But I don’t believe not voting at all is the answer.

Even if you don’t vote for the House fake Democrat on the ballot, there are usually other, local issues that are worth taking a stand on. And it seems to me that here now with this thing called the internet, progressives should be able to come up with a name in every district to write in when the Democrat isn’t a real one.

I can’t not vote. I was closer than I’ve been in my life this year when the Democrats ran such a poor Democrat for governor of my state that he even pledged to opt out of a public option. But in the end, I just couldn’t not vote. So, I wrote in OldFatGuy for governor.

Besides, I’ve always been told that if you don’t vote, then you really don’t have much of a right to bitch about the results. And I guess I like to bitch to much too not vote. *g*

I just called Hirono’s office and they weren’t sure how she’d vote, but, they said she was committed to the PO…! They’ll pass along my concerns… blah-blah…!

I give Grayson slack here, because his position is not rooted in Rahmnesque triangulation, it’s deeply felt, – one life saved is good!

There are very few laughs around these days but I really enjoyed the teabaggers outpolling the goopers. Some things are just plain delightful.

I actually consider this good news – that somebodyn (Grijalva) is standing up for what he believes in.

Stupak’s still saying that they’re gonna try to attach the whole blasted thousand page conf/pingpong bill to the generic 2010 appropriations measure… to suppress debate, apparently. Are we still going to get Cao’s one single “bipartisan” vote on this dog?

The progressive block is a good idea. The progressive block within and under the control of a regressive democratic party leadership isn’t such a good idea. I’ll pitch my 5/25 again if you’re looking for new ideas. Support 5 Senate candidates and 25 house candidates that are independent of the Democratic Party and who fight for things. Those blocks could control and move a lot of legislation but they have to be committed and not walk in fear of the Rahm Emanuels of this world. One Grayson moneybomb is what makes a viable House run. 4 moneybombs and you can run a viable senate race. Names? I would recruit Tom Morello for an independent Senate Run in Illinois, if its not too late, and I would look at supporting Nader for an independent Senate run in Connecticut.

Nader will run in Conn…? Cool…!

Yeah, that’s a good idea. And it isn’t at all what the banks and corporations want you to do.

Grivalja sounds quite likely to vote NO. If just a few CPC members agree with him – which is a near certainty – this latest compromise is dead until it gets more liberal.

do you have a count? thanks.

what up selsie?

I wonder if Grima Wormtongue ever encouraged Theoden to just not vote?

Howdy, stranger…! Long time no see…! *g*

Howard Dean is supporting this because he works as a consultant with a firm which represents Big Pharma.

Jane,

Is FDL gonna oppose the bill or not?

When will you come to a decision?

As of this minute, it seems that FDL won’t take ANY position. You seem to be afraid to call for defeat.

Those in Doris Matsui’s district or nearby might want to participate in tonight’s Town Hall RSVP at the link.

I’m interested in a count, too. I can’t keep up at the moment, but if there is some potential for a Republican yes vote or two, it would mean those would have to be offset with additional no votes from Dems . . .

Are we going to have this fail and be set back another decade or go for the steps?

No, not this canard again! Health care reform will be brought up again, bill or no bill, and soon. Too many people are too pissed off at this point for this to die with a Congressional vote.

Yeah Jane. Inquiring minds would like to know.

Doubt primaries are the answer. It will take years to find that out. You’ve got about eight months to get your ducks in line to challenge an incumbent representative. It’s too late for 2010 and it’s doubtful we’ll have anything going for 2012. Third parties won’t work unless their effectiveness is demonstrated beforehand. If the 2012 choice is between Obama and Palin, anyone here staying home? Do you think you can primary Obama? Were we able to throw a demonstration that attracts 25,000,000 across the country, we’d have something. We can try to lose right and left labels. Left and right are pissed at many of the same things, but it can’t be business as usual. We need to organize the grass roots down to the last blade of grass.

“We thank Representative Grijalva for his strong leadership throughout this fight. If Nancy Pelosi tries to pass a bill without a public option, we will be thanking him and those who stick by him with a fundraiser and GOTV efforts in their districts during the next election.”

That seems pretty clear to me Jenny.

Didn’t know that. Thanks for the info on yet another sell-out.

Jane Hamsher: Threat or Menace?

Primary PElosi!!!!

For those who decide that it’s in the best interest of their communities to vote for a bill that has insurance lobbyists crowing “we win,” we’ll be recruiting and supporting challengers against them who embrace Medicare for All

Right on.

But the emphasis here should be on those Congressmen and women who are most reactionary across the board on issues near and dear to progressives. That’s where the money, the organizing and the boots on the ground need to be concentrated. Who are the worst offenders—from healthcare and the Wall Steet bailout to abortion, immigration reform, workers rights and aghanistan.

Get the most egregeous psuedo democrats out of office first.

So, across the board, who are the worst of the worst?

People, this game is fully rigged to accomplish a net win for the Industry. If 10 Republicans will be needed to pass this abomination, 10 republicans will be found. If you think there’s something honest going on, stop thinking!

Cindy Sheehan, is that you?

Not according to Slinkerwink, who posted yesterday that no position has been taken. Hell, Jon walker said earlier today,

Only an idiot takes a position against the unknown. Is it really so crazy to wait until we are told what is in the bill to make a final judgment of the bill?
source

Better than not voting is voting for anyone — yes, anyone at all halfway legitimate — who is not part of the D-R establishment. People like to keep forgetting that this ain’t baseball bookmaking and that it’s perfectly okay to vote for a minor leaguer.

+1 for Steelydan3′s 5/25!

by the time 2012 rolls around this country may be in the throng of perpetual demonstrations and general unrest.

What better way to show we mean business then to knock out Pelosi.

If we can knock her out, then no one would feel safe to vote against us.

Where’s Shaheen?

And if it s you, Cindy, where do I send my cash?

howdy BFL and CT! great to “see” you.

I don’t really disagree with you although I think primaries have to be part of the strategy. My comment was more in response to the folks trying to keep progressives from voting at all. I suspect their real intentions are to help conservatives.

But I think you’re right, it can’t be business as usual. We need to harness the rage that’s out there and try to steer it in a more productive direction than the Tea Party stuff.

It’s true that demonstrations 10 times larger than any Tea Party demonstration get ignored if they’re supporting progressive causes and it’s easy to get demoralized… which I think is the objective of the decision makers in the MSM. But we need to keep at it.

That’s the line I got from Woolsey’s office too. I pointed out that she already committed to voting NO on any bill without a robust PO and that what the senate appears have does not have a PO, let alone a robust one.

Demonstrations don’t mean jack. You need money to run viable outsider campaigns. Examples that come to mind include Bloomberg, Lamont and even Ross Perot. You need to raise 300 grand to run a viable campaign for a House seat. You need 2 million to contest a senate seat. Those are Grayson moneybomb numbers. They’re doable. I just think there’s an opportunity there for someone who makes an argument against the corruption within the two party system.

Did someone say Evan Bayh?

Are you sure it’s not the same staffer I talked to…? ;-)

i just stopped by to see if anyone has bill language yet to read. i figure if we even get to take a look prior to a vote (boy is this reminding me of some of the fisa votes — in a very bad way), we are not likely to get much time with the bill language prior to the vote and so will have to jump on it right quick like…. i’ll drop everything to help read. and hope there are others ready and willing.

Evan Bayh, the perennial short list favorite VP choice of all Democratic Presidential hopefuls?

I just called Maloney’s NYC office. Person who answered the phone was completely ignorant about what was going on in DC. Said she’d pass my query to DC and send me an email.

I think our money has to be carefully targeted for the 2010 election. We gave lots of money to people who turned out to be Blue Dogs (and worse). This time around I will only give money to a few.

in times like these both are needed. politics as usual means we get beat by the big money. social movement politics are needed too. insiders and outsiders working together.

Headline:

Teabaggers planning ‘die-ins’ at Senate offices.

They are running circles around the ‘progressives’, – shame on us!

Yes, and some of the failures put me on their email list. I’ve been too lazy to figure it out, but perhaps some one could post a list of those we no longer support so I could remove myself from their lists. Or is the BlueAmerica roster current?

We need to concentrate on state legislatures in 2010 with an eye on decennial redistricting and Congressional primaries in new districts in 2012. At least that’s my opinion.

Which means organizing at a County level. FDL does federal level organizing and I’m sure would help with PR for local successes. Blue America should help with fundraising for candidates as well.

That would be the one. Evan “Please Primary Me” Buh-Bayh.

We need a third party. Democrats are nothing but a mixture of liberals that cave and Republicans in disguise. We need a real party that advances progressive ideals and settles for nothing less. I wish it would happen.

If this goes down the way I think it does, I call dibs on running for Weiner’s seat.

Not joking either. I meet all the progressive points and I’m willing to call myself a socialist in public to boot.

Because after the Stupak vote, I garuntee Weiner and the rest of the “progressives” will do whatever the Senate and leadership want them to do.

Let’s start with Heath (I’m just adorable) Shuler. Yuck.

FYI

Here is a snapshot of Pelosi’s corporate donors for the 2010 campaign [so far]:

Industry

Health Professionals $138,200
Lawyers/Law Firms $63,450
Building Trade Unions $52,000
Misc Finance $50,800 $50,800
Public Sector Unions $48,000
Transportation Unions $47,000
Securities & Invest. $45,100
Insurance $40,500
Lobbyists $40,200
Pharmaceuticals $40,100
Industrial Unions $37,500
Retired $34,000
Real Estate $33,200
Retail Sales $31,100
TV/Movies/Music $28,500
Hospitals/Nursing $28,000
Beer, Wine & Liquor $23,100
Computers/Internet $19,000
Defense Aerospace $17,500
Health Services/HMOs $17,400

…boy is this reminding me of some of the fisa votes — in a very bad way…

As Yogi opined… De ja vu- all over again…! 8-(

Not on his list. And I just checked Blue America. Tasini is the only one on it now, so I can’t use it to eliminate emails.

On second call to Woolsey was told A) House is not voting on this bill so Woolsey hasn’t decided how to vote and also B) House has to vote on this bill before it gets to the O’s desk, so don’t worry about the Senate bill getting to O’s desk. Aaaaaargh!

We’re already working on that at my county level. We’re well aware of the stakes for the 2010 elections at the state level.

We’ve got two State House districts in my county, one has a Democratic incumbent whom I would heartily support, except I live in the other district represented by the factory-farm equivalent of a corporatist Republican who is also the longest serving member of the Indiana House. I ran against him in 2006 as a complete novice, but still managed to pull over 30 percent of the vote. However I don’t have the time nor the money to run again this year.

It’s much harder to focus on state races because, though we can come up with a Grayson money bomb, it’s much harder for a state candidate to have enough of a profile to pull in progressive money from across the country. If it wasn’t for a couple of generous unions I wouldn’t have had the money to do much at all.

She’s almost a pauper compared to some of the others. I actually am surprised at the low numbers.

Yeah. We’re not gonna get any definitive As until it goes to the house for a vote. And then it’ll be too late.

Maybe there is just one staffer for all of Congress…maybe it’s a smart robot or a talking monkey!

We have followed Orwell’s advice and created a society that has nothing but symbolism. Anyone that wants to keep it may do so. It will not interfere with reality.

Howard Dean may try to duck out of his initial endorsement to avoid looking like a sell-out, though. Remember that sell-outs are typically under compulsion to maintain appearances.

I’ll opt for the latter…! ;-)

Aren’t we all just talking monkeys really?

Remember that sell-outs are typically under compulsion to maintain appearances.

LOL.

Yet another idol with feet of clay.

Well, some (not I) would argue talking monkeys with souls.

It’s called the “yo-yo.”

I think our best chance is an appeal to institutional pride: demand the House go to conference with the Senate, and not allow a ping-pong. If the House agrees to a vote on the exact Senate bill (ping-pong) then whatever Harry Reid gets passed goes to the President for signature.

By appealing to all the hard work the House did this summer, and by appealing to their sense of institutional pride as equal partners with the Senate, we may be able to get them to go to conference. But if Harry tells Nancy, “This is the best I can get passed the Senate, there’s no point to a conference” she may have to agree to ping-pong (passing the Senate bill intact).

I hope I smell better than a monkey, but considering I’m a DFH…

It would be proof positive that they are bereft of integrity and nothing but placeholders in strong Democratic districts who say the right things when it doesn’t matter, but abandon their principles and facilitate the corporatist agenda when it does.

pithy and fierce!

so, er, Primary them from the Left then, I suppose?

as was explained, a while back, 3rd Party or (I) advocacy is just not in the cards for Accountability Now! . . . ‘off the table’ as the phrase goes . . .

yeah… will stop by later to see if our congress has decided to share their work with us.

wonderful how all the negotiations are open and on c-span and everything, isn’t it? /s

Mike Stark needs to have a chat with CPC Co-Chair Lynn Woolsey!

We’ve got something in common, I’ve run for state legislature in Indiana myself.

And I’ve very glad to hear that your county organization is working on redistricting/getting good Assembly members and state Senators.

The county I lived in in Indiana seems resigned that Baron Hill will be representing us in Congress. I talked with them a lot in 2007/8 about why we need a strong primary opponent for him to no avail. And they aren’t pushing better policies from either of the two D Assembly members or the D Senator.

Thanks Jane.

I just got off the phone with the DC office of Gwen Moore. They would not take a position, but I remain very concerned that Gwen will cave, again.

I just called Grivalja’s D.C. office to say “thank you” to him for supporting the public options as my representatives (Texas) have no concern for the uninsured and uninsurable.

1-202-225-2435

I am confused. What the fuck is in the “stupid health care insurance reform fuck the people bill” that is any good? Anything? Is anything left that will help anyone?

this is theater. its taken them just this long to figure out who can vote no and who will go ahead to vote their TRUE “conscience” and vote for a completely obscene bullshit bill. the only letters im sending out are to senators and reps who may have some shred of morality left, to vote NO on this unholy insurance industry boondoggle. And we have to think of this as not the end, whatever happens but keep fighting them.

Read Atul Gawande’s column in the New Yorker – there’s some hope for cost controls over time.

this bill will do more harm than help. its already harming hundereds of thousands as insurance comanies like aetna and cigna dump people who used to be covered. and why not? as soon as we are all required by an act of congress to buy thier shitty products they can get a more profitable deal for themselves.

I’m surprised at how angry I am at my very own critter Woolsey. This has to stop!

what a complete load of crap

B.S., – for, how can anyone be a serious critic of a dish that hasn’t been served yet?

Time to organize a new party. I’m thinking progressives have more in common with Ron Paul’s people than Democrats.

Rahm recruits republicans to run as dems.

The Clintons are the war machine.

Obama is a tool.

Howard Dean is for fiscal responsibility and a social safety net. Look how the democratic party has treated him.

I think progressives have next to nothing in common with RonRand Paul, other than non intervention.

one thing we could probably do with ron pauls people is try organize mass non compliance with the plan. dont enroll and draw atention to ourselves for it.

Maybe because we know it’s going to be a truly steamy pile… Just how big is the real question…! 8-(

“fiscal responsibility and a social safety net” are antithetical to R.Paul’s theology.

I think the analogy to agricultural advancement has some relevance. Finding ways to change medical billing and incentives for treatments that don’t help outcomes is important in the long run, and he describes some policies that can do that.

YMMV… I’ve thought fairly highly of his writing and analysis for some time.

couldnt he find an analogy in the health care delivery industry?

also,argi business is one thing, if an entire cotton crop is wiped out, who cares right? as long as cotton prices stay high? right? who is going to decide which treatments for what isnt cost effective, and WTF by the way does that have to do with forcing people by law to buy a financial product from private industry? peopl who cant afford to buy food get food stamps from the federal government.

what does fiscal responsibility mean?

Cost controls? That ship sailed when SP advocates were not allowed to come to the discussion table.

Prices will continue to be the highest in the world.

We need cost reductions of at least 30 percent… really much more.

We need to compete with those across the pond. (Who give access to care to everyone)

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/06/27/eveningnews/main5119109.shtml

Under fierce pressure to improve – the NHS annual budget was tripled over the past decade. Now, Britain spends just over $2,700 per person on health care, compared to an average $6,700 in the U.S. And a recent survey shows 90 percent of British patients rated their NHS care as good to excellent.

Thanks for the number. I just called to thank him, even though I am not a constituent.

I wonder why Obama didn’t use that as the slogan on his posters.

SOME HOPE OVER TIME

he’s written about some health care successes – Mayo, Intermountain Healthcare were in the piece from last March…

The article I linked to isn’t addressing the Universal Coverage part of the question… personally I think single payer is the way to go; failing that I’d like to see a public option that’s available to everyone (Wyden’s call for a mandate for multiple insurance choices should include a public option).

He’s looking at something longer term in the article how do we reduce cost and increase treatment effectiveness. It’s a long article, one of the things that resonated with me was this paragraph:

I work in an academic medical group in Boston with more than a thousand doctors and a vastly greater infrastructure of support, and we don’t know the answers to half these questions, either. Recently, I had a conversation with a few of my colleagues about whether we could accept a bundled payment for patients with thyroid cancer, one of the cancers I commonly treat in my practice as a surgeon. It seemed feasible until we started thinking about patients who wanted to get their imaging or radiation done elsewhere. There was also the matter of how we’d divide the money among the surgeons, endocrinologists, radiologists, and others involved. “Maybe we’d have to switch to salaries,” someone said. Things were getting thorny. Then I went off to do an operation in which we opened up about a thousand dollars’ worth of disposable materials that we never used.

Having a system to gather information on how practices’ solve these issues and pass on best practices is an important part of cost control that the Senate bill can enable.

LOL !!

under the very best of circumstances, i now think (got more reading to do though) that hacker’s original plan, if it could have been made to work (a real question) might have been able to capture something like 10-20% of the savings that single payer hr 676 would.

btw, the best way *i think* to compare total healthcare expenditures across countries is %gdp per capita. (richer countries spend more per capita).

Oh isnt it amazing how everyone “thinks single payer is the way to go” and yet what we are faced with is the obscene private incurance boondoggle in the senate right now?? just f-ing amazing how it works out like that. but, im sure, we can trust these same folks in media and wahsington govt. to do the right thing, down the road, at some undetermined point of time, in the distant future.

Thanks. At a glance (Chart here) it looks like percent of GDP (UK vs US) is close to what overall spending numbers reflect above.

sorry mary, i don’t know. just my opinion, but the bills prior to this latest compromise were pretty bad so i’m not expecting much — but want to see the actual language of the current compromise. everything could change. who knows? hope to dog it doesn’t get any longer (i hate reading long bills).

The next big, bicameral, bi-partisan boogeyman: How to gut deficits entitlements.

Somehow we need to become more than sedentary ‘keyboard commandos’.

need % per capita (again, this is just my thinking – i could be full of shit as i’m no expert) to take into account population. i have the figures (down loaded excel files from oecd last winter to play with – yes, i am a data geek). will go look for them later if we can’t find them on line.

Damn shame we don’t get the ponies we all want. It’s been pretty clear that Obama wasn’t going to deliver for a long time (Jane’s Trigger post yesterday documents the perfidy well).

I don’t like insurance companies chortling “we won”.

I’m not so pure as to ignore good analysis of what could be positive from the Senate’s work on HCR. When marymccurnin asked I linked to a piece that poits out some changes that potentially control cost.

I don’t think even the single payer pony would lead over night to better outcomes at lower cost. In particular some of the best practices feedback is needed no matter how we solve universal coverage. Getting that into the Senate’s work is a net positive.

…yes, i am a data geek…

Geeks rawk…! *g*

It occurs to me that people elected to office have a misconception of their role. They are elected to represent the wishes of those people that elect them and not to wander off on their own and choose to do the bidding of groups that did not put them in office.

And the reason they are entrusted with this role is because the voter is assured that the elected official share those wishes too. Representatives are not allowed or free to change their views and preferences once elected, they are bound to carry out the mandate they are given.

Importantly they represent only actual people that vote, that is the only constituency that exists. Companies or businesses or banks or unions have no votes as such. Therefore it follows that they have no voice in determining the positions that elected officials are bound to take. Only actual people have preferences that can be imparted and imposed on the people they elect.

So when Reid or Pelosi or anybody else deviates from the mandate they have been given that is reason enough to oust them or to bring them to heel. These people in Congress and the White House have to be made to understand that they are not sovereign beings that lord over the people and are free to disperse the public good as they see fit. These people have to be brought down to earth with a loud thump on their ass.

There is only one way to deal with our corrupt politicians——–now where did we put that [Edited by Moderator. No violence, even as fantasy]?

This voting for change is pure BS!

Time for that tried and true French method of political reform!

LOL!

I can’t imagine why you think all we’re doing is typing comments. Are you actually reading the posts talking about what Jane, Marcy, and some of the rest of us are doing with our lives?

well that was some totally inartful framing/phrasing on my part. I simply have this uncomfortable notion that we fail to anticipate the next crisis, or even when we do, we fail to get in front of it. I sense it may be because we’re distracted?

Joe Baca. He represents a 68% Obama district. He’s a Blue Dog. He’s sexist. Loretta Sanchez quit the Hispanic Caucus when Chairman Baca called he a “whore.” Hilda Solis and Linda Sanchez backed her. We can do better here.

Jim Cooper. A point man against Social Security. Represents Nashville and has been leading the charge against good health care, retirement, etc. for 20 years. A 58% Obama district IIRC.

Melissa Bean. Obama put her in by sending campaign workers from Chicago to the suburbs in his 2004 romp. A 60% Obama district represented as conservative. She recruits new House members for the right and tells them /sells them that the way to re-election is to show you oppose the leadership to the right. Trash. Expensive trash, too. The only Serbian Orthodox church member in either house of Congress according to Congress.org (her claim to fame).

Michael Bennet. Already has a better opponent in the Colorado Senate primary. Unelected and crappy.

I’d love to take out Evan Bayh, Blanche Lincoln, Max Baucus, and the perpetually dithering Mary Landrieu. Harry Reid. Joe Lieberman. Many will have to go later. Reid and Lincoln would lose the general election if it were held now anyway.

I don’t think even the single payer pony would lead over night to better outcomes at lower cost

dude, even i think several hundred billion dollars a year savings is lower cost (although the idea is to use all that savings to provide first dollar coverage for everyone). so total national health expenditures stay about the same, but coverage is comprehensive and universal. then work on savings via global budgeting, and all the many many other things that need to be done. get everyone into the same plan first, otherwise the incentives for saving money are all screwed up (i want save money by cutting services to you and visa versa — we all have to be in the same boat to make good choices).

A great article from Matt Taibbi on the current corporate blow job that is the health care reform bill. http://taibbi.rssoundingboard.com/health-care-for-almost-one-third-of-everyone-who-is-left-handed-and-over-50#more-213

It’s all about numbers and it has to be done by indirection. I would say we must organize town by town, but not as progressives. I’ve mentioned putting town check books on line to get people interested. We need to get people on line on a much more diverse basis. Talking amongst ourselves, while interesting, won’t get anything of consequence done.

Let not be confused over this matter of healthcare reform either it has a public option or not? Does the present healthcare bill have anything we can support at this time or not? I say target those senators and those house member who failed to vote for healthcare reform period. At the same time put Obama on notice he will not get our support given his record on healthcare or climate change or any other issues in which he backtracks period. SO JANE WHAT IS IT GOING TO BE DO WE CALL THEM OUT OR WHAT? You have worked to hard to accept this bullshit. You need to post on this blog what we are going to do. NOTICE I SAID WE NOT I At the same time formulate a plan in which all liberal and progressive groups can participate and are committed to just causes. In other words you must shake the DEMS as well as REP to there knees. YOU KNOW WHAT YOU HAVE TO DO JANE IT CAN BE DONE.

That’s how we got Reagan in 1980 and the GOP Congress in 1994 and allowed Bush to come close enough in Florida to steal it in 2000.

Actually, considering that the public option was supposed to have been sacrificed months ago, and single payer wasn’t even seriously on the table (if it was, its alleged Congressional backers wouldn’t have backed away from it once it was actually set to get a floor vote) Jane and the FDL readers have done a good job keeping it alive. And the total spent is less than what the insurance lobby spends on killing real reform in a single afternoon.

Data is good.

MAJOR news: Grivalja sounds quite likely to vote NO. If just a few CPC members agree with him – which is a near certainty – this latest compromise is dead until it gets more liberal.

Very minor news: Pelosi repeats the same talking point the Democrats have said all along: she’s open to something better than the public option but she’ll have to see it before she believes it. She said nothing about the likelihood of her caucus accepting a bill without a public option. So, yesterday Pelosi was the strongest defender of the public option amongst the leadership, and today nothing’s changed.

Perhaps the establishment Democrats have decided that they can’t pass HCR and if they can’t pass it, then the next best thing is to be able to blame it all the loony, left-wing, progressive fringe. I personally would love for the Democratic establishment to finally bring it out in the open and declare war on the progressive movement. If we’re all left staring at a bona fide schism in the Democratic Party, then we might actually begin the process of transformation. The establishment Democrats haven’t been able to co-opt us, they haven’t been able to effectively trick us, so the next step is probably to alienate and destroy us. In other words, they’ll simply tell the Netroots to go to hell and say, “You want to primary us, go right ahead.” The question is, can the Netroots take on establishment Democrats along with Exxon, Eli Lilly, Newscorp, GE, K Street, and all the rest of them? That’s the reality we’re dealing with.

You have the numbers backwards. The problem fringe that’s getting in the way of the will of the majority of Democrats is the Conservadems. We left wingers have much more in common with mainstream Democrats like Schumer than the Conservadems do. So focus your energies against Nelson, Lieberman, etc., not the broad majority of the Democrats.

Did you guys really think that Nancy had our back on this? That women caves on everything she touches just ask Bush. The dems have calculated that yeah the liberals are going to be dissapointed and they will squawk for a day or two but in the end they are going to vote with us when we need them. Because after all we are better than the repubs, isnt that right Jane? I know it is unthinkable for those of us who have politics in our blood but until we are willing to let the dems lose elections we are going to continued getting played. Until we are willing to let the dems lose then we might as well learn to like the feel of sausage being forced down our throats.

And that is why it wont work. We dont have the funds to go against the corporate dems in more than a couple of districts. So running primaries and losing in most districts means we will end up supporting the corporate democrat in the end anyway. Our vote and organizing is our strength and our leverage, without us the dems dont win elections and unfortunately we have to remind them of this by allowing them to lose. The system is broken and instead of trying to fix it we have to replace it. The democratic party has to be purged of the corporate shills before it can provide us a vehicle for change, until that happens we are going to keep getting what we have always gotten because we keep doing the same thing. Supporting the lesser of two evils is insane.

Well done Grijalva.Anyway, the PO is already dead,deceased!! we all know
why,Obama,senators etc, all of them give a danm.Corporations and insurers definitely are winners,very sad.There won’t be such true reform,only
fat politicians playing games and getting money!! THIS called reform is
a TRUE SHAME,skyrocketing premiums deductibles and copayments,and yet
millions without insurance.Finally, Obama works for big corporations like
any other president.A big fiasco for us democrats.

speaking of blaming it on the “stupid” lefty equivalent of the teabaggers for throwing health care under the bus..
Matt Yglesias on think Progress was doing just that the other day.

Te issue isn’t how many agree with us; it’s how much money is spent to re-elect status quo politicians of any stripe. We won’t outspend Exxon, Lilly.

Look at the phone bank feedback – progressives don’t know their congressperson voted for Stupak. Sure they agree with us, but they think of their representative as doing the right thing and chances are they talk the right talk when their constituent calls. We need to be there to make sure people know they aren’t walking the walk, and the phone banking is making some headway in doing this.

We can make a difference in some primaries. Primarying Evan Bayh would feel really good, but I doubt that we’d prevail at the polls. Blanche Lincoln is a better target in the Senate, a success there would be awesome. Open seat primaries are even better. Down ticket races can have disproportionate bang for the buck especially with decennial redistricting coming up.

I agree Knox.I’ve been arguing for months that would have caved.

Why should she believe what Harry says? Make him prove it in Conference.

How come there isn’t any organizing going on…a march/protest on Washington for the public option? I mean c’mon, idiotic birthers and teabaggers showed up in droves trying to get their voices heard, why can’t public option supporters do it and make headlines? This whole thing, frustrates me to no end. Without the public option how will we get the price of health insurance lowered? We won’t. The way it looks now, this bill sure as hel won’t help me. I can’t even afford to go to the doctor when I’m sick.

Sure, corporate funding is the number one thing fucking up the Democratic party – but at the end of the day the thing that matters is how many people agree with us – ie. Senators – how many votes do we have? That number is around 50 for a lot of issues, like health care, cap and trade, EFCA. Which is enough for reconciliation and enough for them to push those last 10 to get decent compromise bills (which will need further strengthening.) We do usually have about 50 votes, so I don’t know if you need to curse the whole Democratic party. Just let’s get rid of those problem ones in the middle…like you say in AR…I’m waiting until I can donate to Halter…

a victory in AR will be very sweet. we get momentum out of it too. A close loss not so much, and that’s why I’m not sanguine about Bayh, I think he’d win a primary with over 60% and become a bigger impediment.

Blanche could be defeated with the right progressive candidate, at leas that’s what polling is showing now. It’s going to require Bill Clinton stay away during the primary though… not sure how we make that happen.

My opinion is 2012/2014 is when we’re going to be most effective at congressional politics. And state legislatures can be critical to that effort.

speaking of health care, I’m going back to Planned Parenthood tomorrow, getting kidney function checked to see if curtailing 1800 mg ibuprofen daily has fixed my Potassium levels, and in particular the K/Na ion balance. Without insurance the $5.00 I’ll pay for a visit with a physician’s assistant and blood work is very appreciated.

Did they do a bad job on policy (Stupak)? Sure did. Doesn’t mean their clinics aren’t worth supporting and your local PP can use your help – $$ and time. It’s very rewarding to do escort work and preserve access to abortion.

If you think this is such a disaster, keep it up, you can remain progressively pure under President Palin and Majority Leaders McConnel and Boehner in 2012. Still at least it would not be as bad as lving under Reagan in the 80s. THAT was a nightmare.

It seems to me that we keep spinning our wheels each time elections come up and we support the Democrats. Their platform was just rhetoric to make us feel good; rhetoric meant to whip up our emotions and aspirations, and nothing more. The Dem leadership has no real committment to the ideals many of us in the “base” hold dear. Seems like we’d have realized that by now. Until we can divorce our political processes from the big corporate money and the paid lobbyists we will continue to spin our wheels. The Democrats are beholden to corporate and other big money just like the Republicans are, no different. Only the Dem rhetoric and supposed ideals are closer to what many of us believe. Every campaign season they come out swinging talking about civil rights, social equality and “leveling the playing field” and we eat it up.

Even if we are unhappy with our Dem candidates many of us will probably vote for them anyway in 2010, because fear tells us to support the Dem incumbant over any challenger, because we just can’t afford to risk losing such and such a seat. This is probably why we are stuck with people like Baucus, Landrieu and others. The cycle continues.

The problem fringe that’s getting in the way of the will of the majority of Democrats is the Conservadems. We left wingers have much more in common with mainstream Democrats like Schumer than the Conservadems do.

I have it backwards? I don’t think so.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/14/business/14schumer.html?_r=2&hp=&adxnnl=1&adxnnlx=1260529414-wK7NhYjaSgnnc9T5UEisUA

Obviously Schumer’s close to Wall St., particularly before the latest bust. But he’s still closer to my position on most things like health care, environment, labor, etc., than he is to the Ben Nelsons. As are most Democrats, which was my point.