Excellent analysis. Thank you very much.

I mean, the woman in the example, she is trying hard to get pregnant, why would she think of the worst possible outcome in the process? And buy insurance for that when her hope and expectation is that she will have a baby, not have to save her own life. Of course her life is worth $9,000, but that on top of the loss of the baby and the unmeasured cost of the added burden of having to argue with the insurance and fight for her right, which “to save the life of the mother” is not covered?

Shorter Stupak: “Stupidak is as stupidak does.”

yeah, good job on this. abortion was never a big issue for me, but tis guy is a fucking asshole. thanks for this.

I saw Jane Hamsher on the Ed Show. I thought she was a bit arrogant. She said “we negotiated down from single payer”. We? Who is we? She writes a blog, she does not represent anyone, she was not elected. She negotiates nothing.

She was speaking of the Progressive Movement, in which she has a voice. I don’t imagine you have any substantive criticism…?

I like the other picture better — the one on the headline page:

http://static1.firedoglake.com/1/files/2009/10/Stupak-Bart.jpg

It always looks like someone put too much chlorine in the wash cloth used right before they took his picture.

Right on time – the trolls.

prettykitty, shut yo mouth, i don’t care’f you talkin’ bout shaft. I her lobbyist so she represent me. She better, lest I be takin’ my influence money elsewheres. You dumb, pretty kitty. But send me yo pickcha anyways cuz if you’ze really pretty, i let that go. Now you gets on back to free republic where you crawled from.

I would ask.. who are you? But you said enough for me to know i’m not interested.

Bart can go fuck himself with a sharp stick. He waited until the optimum moment to introduce an amendment that, at any other time, would have been ignored.

Why not deny this guy any health care, take away all his spare cash and options, and then run the twisted end of a septic coathanger up his urethra, just for drill?

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around the fur ball.

*Ouch* … and spot on !

Stupak.Must.Go !

Typical. It was a fair comment on my part. “We negotiated down from single payer”. Be honest. She doesn’t negotiate with anyone and there was NEVER any talk of single payer. Stop being vulgar and answer the question.

Stay away from the Catnip, you’re playing with the Big Dogs !

Arrogant? How about pissed off. She does represent us even though she’s not elected. She reads our comments and sees how many of us sign her petitions or send money for various causes.

We haven’t “met”, but I’m thinking you’re pretty new around here. Watch how it works for a while before assuming Jane doesn’t speak for us.

STFU!

Sroll? “g”

Just a neologism for a troll stroll…. :)

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around the fur ball.

Just don’t choke on it….
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who’s pretty? You? what makes you think so? huh? i have grave doubts.

you don’t seem to have much to say.

say something.

For a blogger to go on TV and say, “We negotiated down from single payer” is curious to say the least. To negotiate you have to have someone to negotiate with. Again, who did she negotiate with?

LOL

I have’t seen you at the lake before so welcome if you are new.

Hang around and participate in some of the political activity here, and you’ll soon learn who “we” are.

Interesting all the vulgarity directed at a woman because she has a different opinion than you might. Pretty classy guys.

Uhuuh

when you find yourself sayin “again” that means yer sayin’ the same ol’ shit over and over. you don’t have nuthin’ t’say. nuthin’ at all. piss off.

I thought she appeared arrogant, that was my opinion. Sorry. To go on and say I see it differently is one thing, to say “we negotiated” referring to major legislation is just disshonest. She didn’t negotiate with anyone did she?

Ah, poor baby. We’re being mean.

Nice mouth. And you hold yourself up to be morally superior?

You’d better leave before one of our Hunters show up …

Nope, we just like roasting Trolls …

Well Gee… here we respect a Woman’s right to determine her own reproductive health with out ANY outside interference.. After all it is her body!

I am repeating myself, because not one person has answered me. Who did Jane negotiate with?

Stupak is a lying sack of human crap.

the doctors will be along soon. Fun !

Go, Gurlll…! ;-)

Interesting all the vulgarity directed at a woman because she has a different opinion than you might. Pretty classy guys.

Here, class is avoiding sophistry, and you ain’t got none.

LOL … yep !

I have 4 brothers, you think I am intimidated by rude, vulgar bullies? Ha! Think again.

Rep. Louise Slaughter Dispels Myths About the Stupak Amendment

It’s too bad she didn’t use her power as Chair of the Rules Committee
to make sure it never saw the light of day.

Gee y’all, don’t make it so easy on them. At least wait for higher quality bait.

Thread diverted, troll mission accomplished.

Cmon Ya’ll… Scccrrrooolll…! *g*

Hmmm I do have a great recipe for Roast Trussed Troll… takes a while to get it marinated and then Roasted on an open Spit…

let me know if ya need it..

Still no answer…ok. I will declare myself the winner of this little tet-a-tet and leave it at that. Far be it from me to beat a dead ideologue over the head.

Nobody, because single payer advocates were shut down any on discussion before it could begin. It’s not like we bargained it away, we were shut out.

Aw shoot paw, you nevvuh let us have any fun !

Whatever a troll is, I am not one I am sure. But again, no one can tell me who Jane negotiated with.

Thanks for stopping by … nice to meet a living Brain Donor !

Some cliche about flies & honey comes to mind.

LOL

what’s the question, dearie?

Jane’s not in a position to negotiate, she’s in a position to advocate for us. That’s what she’s done, and that’s what she’ll continue to do. She is highly respected around here, and is getting more and more spots on MSNBC to speak for us.

Sure wasn’t You..
Hang around and you could learn a lot of what Jane Is talking about..

Whatever a troll is, I am not one I am sure.

Just because you don’t live under a bridge….

Is that like Raisin Brian?

Well at least Loo Hoo thank you for replying substantively and politely. I think everyone in Congress knows what single payer means; they didn’t support it. Although, it is ironic that the current Senate bill with the lowered age for Medicare is single payer actually.

Stupak says his amendment is not different than what’s already there – so why does he need to have the amendment at all? I want to get him out so much.

Stop beating on my twisted, fugly cat!

I’d be even funnier if the Stillers were beating the Quinns …

Thanks for stopping by … nice to meet a living Brian Brain Donor !

Fixed….

Somehow.. i doubt any answer would really matter to you.

Perhaps you could calm down and tell us why you are interested… perhaps not.

I think kitty just wants to claw the furniture.

I happen to care more about the elimination of pre-existing condition restrictions than I do about any other issue. For that reason I can support this bill. A public option just does not have the votes that is a fact.

*Ducks and hides from Newt’s backhand*

Bwian? wee-weese Bwian.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u88kf1J6Kv4

You must be a miserable person to talk to someone like that. Do you think you are a better person than a polite Democrat that doesn’t agree with you?

Gawwdddamn, you do live under a bridge….

My bad… Whack away.

Hey, isn’t Cleveland closer…? ;-)

I will answer any question. I am being polite and am not insulting anyone personally.

Agreed. Medicare for 55-64 year olds would be wonderful if affordable. Then maybe in a couple of year 45 to 54 year olds and so on.

Single payer is the only option that makes real sense.

who gives a shit?

I have a pre-existing condition, I think it’s important to eliminate that. Not just for me, for all people.

It gets him lots of free advertising while potentially accomplishing his primary objective of crippling or killing the reform effort.

Do you think you are a better person than a polite Democrat that doesn’t agree with you?

of course not. do you know any?

My back is up, don’t get me started.

But Loo Hoo. Single payer would not pass. Would you rather have no bil at all? Isn’t eliminating pre-existing conditions worth anything to you? Why does it have to be all or nothing?

Public option does not seems to have the votes in the Senate, so there we are. Once Americans watch their health insurance continue to rise, maybe they’ll wake up, huh???

Thanks ! And also to nahant …

You came in with an attitude and I don’t buy this new sweetness and light. Don’t make the mistake of attacking Jane here.

Morally superior? You confuse bad language with a bad life?

almost everybody has a fucking pre-existing condition. i have one. at least one. and ya know what? the bill that looks like it’s coming out of the senate? Blows.

Maybe it’s fro being from a large family that was poor. I appreciate what I can get and I can deal with not getting everything I might want. This bill is a start.

Extra points for figuring out the cat’s preexisting condition!

“Me lose brain? Ha ha ha! Why me laugh?”
-Homer Simpson

Buffalo is even closer … what your point ? *g*

I will say what I wish to, thanks for the recommendation.

The easiest answer is that Jane was using the “Editorial We,” speaking from the standard democratic position on health care in general; see the DNC 2008 Party Platform here, and start at page 9.

Now as to the purpose of the thread; are you going to make some calls prettykitty?

I am. As of tonight, there’ll be 3 of us in my house next Wednesday making calls.

If a bill only eliminating preexisting conditions were passed… rates would skyrocket. They would find a hundred other ways to screw ya.

Perhaps you have a rare incurable form of myopia?

Of course it’s important to eliminate the pre-existing condition horseshit that insurance companies enjoy, and equally important is not cutting people off if they get sick.

It’s corporate corruption, and lobbyists in congress are buying the votes in congress. Plain and simple and ugly.

Must be pretty damp down there. Could there be a fungus among us?

What is the cost of eliminating pre-conditions? Cuz they gon whip your wallet hard on that one. No cost controls, you are going to pay and pay.

My pre-existing was mild seasonal allergies. That is why I got dumped.

Like I said, don’t get me started.

I gotta ‘pologize. i was too hard rough on prettykitty. she’s with us on everythinmg except health care reform. i’m sure.

Another reasonable question I get no answer to. Does anyone think eliminating pre-existing condition exclusions is a very important thing to millions of people who can’t get insurance?

i remember that commercial

I think you might be surprised at the many kinds of people who comment here. Many are very well educated. Some are not. Most are smart. There is a wide variety of incomes. Some grew up poor and still are. We don’t make judgements on that kind of thing. You just have to be intellectually healthy. That is all we ask.

If y’all want something to read while we wait for better trolls … Godfather of PO intrigued by medicare buy-in: “The Original Idea” – via huffpo

Why would you let some dam man control have over your reproductive health because His Morals demands he/bill not allow any Abortions at all even if it could kill her? And require she buy separate flier.. but if she receives any federal help she can’t even buy one with her own money…
Who the fuck are they to force their morals one the rest of us. Last I knew Religion is forbidden to influence the State!!
???
Seems like a shit pile to me for Women…

Neerfart no, I don’t think I would agree with you on everything. Just a feeling.

What is the point if the insurance costs too much? How can we pay for it?

She just wants her pony.. and screw the rest.

Oof…! Scccrolll… Ya’lll…!!! 8-(

Too bad the current provacateur keeps “asking” questions as if they were new thoughts.
If you had been here before you would know that the question of what to fight for, what there are enough votes for, and how to get more votes, have been the main theme of this blog for many months.
And through Jane Hamsher’s efforts, votes in Congress have been changed because she reaches a wide audience. Numerous petitions and other actions originated by Jane or another person on FDL have tens of thousands of signatures.
So, yes, she gets to say “we.” She also gets to use “we” to refer to the broader liberal community in general.
You’ve been answered with this fact several times, yet you pretend “no one has answered me.”
That is what makes you a troll.

Maybe it’s fro being from a large family that was poor. I appreciate what I can get and I can deal with not getting everything I might want. This bill is a start.

You’re not a pretty kitty. You’re a whipped dog.

You started out by pissing on someone that is trying to do you a favor that you won’t fight for yourself.

Shame on you.

I don’t know this blog so I don’t know who comments here. I came here because I was watching Ed Shultz and I saw Jane Hamsher. It struck me wrong.

Troll 101: ignore all substantive replies

Gee, don’t we rate something better than a troll undergrad?

Everyone here supports that, and eliminating rescission, and a whole lot of other positions.

You should read a couple of comment threads and you’d see.

But if it’s important to you to challenge people here, be prepared for pushback. When you accuse people without knowing their stated positions on issues, prepare to be royaly roasted.

Now, I’ll ask you to answer MY question; are you going to make some calls?

Of course it is. Why don’t you go back into the archives and read all about it. There are maybe 300 or 400 hundred essays on it.

yeah. it’s important, in my view. so why don’t they just do that? but don’t call what they’re doing now “health care reform”. ‘snot. i can’t speak for everyone – or anyone else here, but what has me pissed is the number of “progressives” and liberals who pussied out on this whole thing, yeah, that’s you weiner!!!

New people to an environment are sometimes well served by getting to know it first.

Yes it’s very important. The problem lies in the fact that insurance companies will just raise everyone’s rates to accomodate. Single payer is the ultimate answer. We ALL pay in taxes instead of everyone paying different amounts to insurance companies.

The public option was the compromise.

Where are the 3 self- appointed defenders of Jane from yesterday ?

Wow, the vulgarity here is really amazing. Is that the kind of discourse you support? Believe in what we do or we will curse at you and insult you? I mean really.

So then why are you making assumptions about Jane, the people who comment here and their putative incomes.
It’s generally a good idea to read a blog for awhile before commenting.
You know nothing, you think you’re raising novel questions, and you should yes, STFU.

yep Mary hows the weather in the big valley?

I obviously cannot respond to ten people at once I apologize. I do believe Jane Hamsher should not have suggested she negotiates for anyone. Sorry if that bothers you. I also am going to be happy if this bill passes. It is not nearly as good as it could be, but it is a start.

No, show some respect and you won’t be “insulted.”
But, yeah, we don’t get our knickers in a twist over “bad” langugae.

If you can’t take it, you should give up trolling.
Whether you know it or intend it, that is exactly what you’re doing.
Read FDL before you criticize!

I agreed with her statements. WE are the people of the US of A that want our sweat-laden TAX dollars to benefit OURSELVES. Cover our HEALTH CARE- all of us, everything-get it? Get it Bart? No? We don’t get you either for Michigan- not for governor, or representative or anything else. Retire before we throw you out in the next election. I can easily vote for a Republican now- maybe a female- if I must. You have made that possible! You don’t represent the Democrat platform, but the corporations whose money you take and the misogynists in Rome- certainly not a Democracy.

What about QUALITY AMERICAN LIVES? Tax dollars to provide higher education for our young people too- how did we lose that benefit? And “business” is so worried about “educational standards” and jobs. Right. No more taxation of any senior citizens either- they paid all their lives and many are reduced to poverty! Also, four weeks vacation, strong labor standards that protect working people and the environment. Screw the corruption in the corporations, markets, war profits. Bring it home now folks. Its ours.

So you’ve ignored every explanation we have given you as to why it’s perfectly reasonable for her to speak that way, right?

Did you never hear even of the “editorial ‘we’”, as mentioned above?

Ah, redfish!
Welcome back!

You just have to be intellectually healthy. That is all we ask.

Wow, thanks for setting the bar completely out of my reach, Mary…

I assure you I am fairly well read on the issues, at least I try. I am not totally happy in life with most things but I have learned to appreciate some baby steps. If this bill passes I can get insurance which I do not have now.

LOL, you know that isn’t true, rf!

Honey, we are all tired and angry. We have watched the politicans refuse to stop the murder by spread sheet. Many of us have worked for years on this. Our country is owned by the corporations. They own me. And they own you.

Might do well to hang around for a while and ask a few questions of the regular posters.

You would find that Jane does in substance speak for most of us. (That’s why I and others took umbrage at you characterizing her as “arrogant”) Also you may find that she and this great group or hard working bloggers she has gathered do have some direct influence on negotiations. It’s called democracy.

That said. Welcome. Stick around you’ll like it.

betcha would. Lightning round. Ready? Go!

-obama’s afghanbistan policy?
sucks it dry.

Obama’s Nobel Prize
You gotta be fucking kidding me.

Obama.
Disappointed. Very disappointed.

Joe Biden?
Da Man!

Michelle Obama?
Bored with her, man.

FDL?
Excellent blog.

New Jersey?
Dense.

Oh Fuck Another
Sigh…

s
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sigh..

ccccc….ccccccc…….oooollllddd.

Wait to see how much it costs before you say that.

You may think you are well-read on this issue, but if you haven’t been reading FDL and a few others on the issue, you are not. That comment about being able to get insurance if this bill passes shows that you don’t.

Well Beerfart you are wrong.

Green Balloons!

I’m not fighting with anyone. I said what I felt and that’s it. It doesn’t bother me if you want to insult me. I’m sure whore is next.

Isn’t there another thread yet?

I gotta go – will check back later. I.can’t.seem.to.resist….

Look, I’m glad to hear that. Really. You were way off about Jane, though. Not even close.

Well, maybe if somebody gives me a boost up. Careful of the shoes, I think I may have trod in something… :)

here also.. but not as bad as the last two nights..
I think we lost a few potted plants to the freaking cold… shit..

And by the way – if you are a Progressive, a Democrat, someone who thinks Single Payer is the ultimate goal of those of conscience, you are one of the “WE” that Jane mentioned.

If you want to abuse this place and its peeps with a linguistic trick, you have some surprises coming.

707

Sorry Beerfart, I stand by what I said, it struck me as wrong. It is just my opinion that is all. Sorry.

Bullshit. Not wrong.

Too late, shoulda said it before I drugged myself.

I love it when you get tough.

Bah.

I am not abusing anyone. I have the right to have an opinion.

what’s wrong with you anyway?

Anybody read Marta’s post before leaping off the bridge? Just curious.

You don’t know what my opinions are on issues at all. I am well read, I know what the issues are and I make a decision like most voters.

It was not a stated difference of opinion. You said that Jane was arrogant – your opening comment.

Mary, I am as sweet as pumpkin pie.

Look. Here at FDL, if we want your opinion we’ll tell you what it is.

Got it?

As i said above…

If a bill only eliminating preexisting conditions were passed… rates would skyrocket. They would find a hundred other ways to screw ya.

Simply looking at it from one perspective would not get the results you might think.

Insurance companies are the nations preexisting condition.

You mean medically? Why should I disclose that, to be made fun of? To have people here wish me harm? I’ll pass. I was just commenting on what I said. Leave it at that.

and she stands by it!

Oh, that’ll help…

you wish newt…

you’re being made fun of and wished ill as it is. never mind. i think I know.

Eureka I am sure that is the case but it is a start. It is better than nothing. Obama supports it, Reid supports it, Pelosi sounds like she will. It’s far from perfect I understand.

So now that you have had a dish of milk and some time to reflect, are you one of the “WE?” Do you support what many of us do?

Now we are wishing you harm? Geez, you are certainly whiny.

*Harrumph* You’ve not greeted me, properly…! 8-P

If you can afford to pay whatever insurance companies want to charge… you will LOVE this bill.

Prettykitty, the ganging up is indeed a bit distasteful, your question actually is technically valid. I don’t think that you would call bribery a negotiation, yet that’s what happens on the hill. It then sorta follows that nobody is really negotiating at all!

So make fun of me. Do you think I care what ideologues on a blog who don’t know me think? I wonder how many hospices you volunteer at? And how many Golden Retreivers you train and take to hospitals to visit the terminally ill? Huh? Tell me.

And from Marts’s outstanding piece, some money.

Laszewski says the problem is that by all estimates, the vast majority of people who will be shopping in the new exchanges will be getting subsidies, so they won’t be allowed to get abortion coverage. Thus, if a health insurer did offer a separate plan with abortion coverage, it would only be available to a small universe of buyers, and it simply wouldn’t make much business sense.

Imagine one of these birds going on the record…

I support a public option but I think that is hopeless. The votes are not there. I do not support how you act here.

it would be a defeat for the American People to pass the bill as we know it and then big money wins. plain and simple

Oh, you’re the guy from Connecticut!
How’s Joe?

And answered in the next comment, which was subsequently ignored suggesting our guest has no genuine interest in discussion and only stopped by to amuse itself playing a childish game of Bait the Lefty.

Well, maybe my feelings on Jane Hamsher were strong. But, she did come across as arrogant to me.

I am not from Connecticut, I am from Houston, Texas

… with Whipped Cream ! *g*

Many people on this site have grave physical issues. Some have no health insurance. Some are under insured. Some have great insurance. We have also lost people due to the lack of response or slow response of their insurance companies. We don’t make fun of peoples illnesses. We understand.

Listen, everybody – we’re not acting nice. Makes me want to cry. s/

Hey, that selfish, overinflated, ego-driven Jane Hamsher is the next post you guys!

When you visit someone’s home, you do not walk in and kick the lady of the house.

ROFL !!!

Keep your marital aids to you self, Canukocrat.

We should all stop what we are doing… demand an end to preexisting conditions… while the rest of AMerica goes bankrupt or simply dies in agony.

But pretty kitty will be happy. She’s certainly not arrogant…. no no, not at all.

You would be amazed at the things people have done here. One person volunteers in Russia to take care of premmies. I could name a dozen other people that do similar things. Another helps find homes for the homeless. Actually finds them places to live and moves them in.

Isn’t she tho…? /s

no you’re not,in fact this whole exchange with prettykitty is stunningly petty and infantile reminiscent of Lord of the Flies if anything decent at all, What’s up with you all here?

I expressed my opinion, I am sorry you don’t like it. I don’t insult people personally who say something I don’t like.

Mary I am sue that is the case and think that is admirable.

sure – sp

Me & Tiger Woods are of the same belief … Make Love, Not War !

Take your violin back to Malkin’s place. We will all be better off.

I will tell you what, I apologize ok? I thought she appeared a bit out of line in saying what she said. Maybe I didn’t understand the context. It’s not important for me to be right.

Hey, dude has (or had) hisself a regular harem!

I expressed my opinion, I am sorry you don’t like it. I don’t insult people personally who say something I don’t like.

You f****** *****–you started this thread by doing just that.

Look, keep it up, and I will verbally unload on you. You don’t want that. You really don’t want that.

I’m not at all in the mood for your horseshit.

Just practicing his swing. I could say more but I won’t.

Montag – give it your best shot, you only demean yourself.

Most of the ones that attacked you are most likely incapable of acting on their own outside of a litter. It’s just pack mentality.

horseshit = vac·u·ous (vāk’yōō-əs)
adj.
1.

Devoid of matter; empty.
2.
1.

Lacking intelligence; stupid.
2.

Devoid of substance or meaning; inane: a vacuous comment.
3.

Devoid of expression; vacant: “The narrow, swinelike eyes were open, no more vacuous in death than they had been in life” (Nicholas Proffitt).
3.

Lacking serious purpose or occupation; idle. See Synonyms at empty.

Thank you can I say it ha! “fuckno !

Anyway, this was really interesting in a strange way. Thanks for engaging me, I applaud anyone who has passion about an issue. Have a good evening.

boo-fuckin’-hoo monday#2

Johnny Carson was interviewing the wife of Arnold Palmer.

He asked her if she did anything special for Arnold to give him luck before a tough match.

She replied “I kiss his balls.”

Johnny: “I’ll bet that makes his putter stand on end !”

Refresh and go upstairs. Maybe you can speak with Jane directly.

LOL LOL LOL

Looking to get laid, are you?

Good luck, dork.

Twain, yesterday you felt put upon, today you are acting like the worst kind of hypocrite.

Jeebus, these trolls make dirt Vicky Toensing look smart in comparison …

If you and your mates are the representative specimen of FDL, than you are a bunch of hooligans merely displaying your own shriveled putters,and misrepresenting Jane. imo.

Define trolls if you’re able.

Look in the mirror !

Thanks. Your friend’s first comment was that Jane was arrogant. She could have disagreed with Jane in 100 different ways but she chose that route and it’s insulting and rude. If she had stated an opinion, the conversation would have gone on. But that’s not what happened. I’m not convinced that Miss Kitty is who she says she is. She sounds like that Justice guy from yesterday. You and I have no fight. But after all the work that Jane has done, to insult her is not working for me.

Tell her husband to lift his skirt and you can see for yourself.

You guys are runing in a pack, smelling each others butts and acting like you are really something special. Define troll!

Considering how many of the people around here are female, that’s a pretty crappy thing to say.

Typical troll, though. Insult the locals before you even find out who they are.

Turn it DOWN. You’re being unnecessarily rude to people who have been here through a lot of fights already.

This guy is an absolute moron, truly aptly named Stupid. Does he not see the absurdity of his reasoning.

First, the Stupak ammendment is indeed consistent with the Hyde ammendment but it also is much broader. Whereas Hyde and Stupak both prohibit government funds to to pay for abortion, Hyde allows health plans to cover abortions while Stupak doesn’t.

That’s because whereas health plans do not currently receive government funds, under Stupak and the proposed HCR scheme all health plans will receive directly or indirectly government funds. And further everyone has to be insured.

If you take these conditions together you have logically excluded the possibility of anyone being covered to undergo an abortion. And if you further add that you can not pay out of pocket to a provider for that procedure because they too are precluded from performing that procedure, then you have no recourse at all if you choose to undergo an abortion.

That Stupak actually does not see this is a testament to the man’s inability to reason.

She sounds nothing like justice Twain! This was an ugly display of lowliest human traits!

Actually, I think it hit what it was aiming at. But it rarely encounters universal (well, almost universal) derision, and when it does, can’t get it’s feet planted.

watertiger has late night up at the mothership

Stop crying right now.
No Skittles™ for you if you don’t.stop.crying.

so this is it: Territory . Just like Lou Dobbs, soon you’ll be packing and sending immigrants back where they belong because they looked at you not quite so – disfuckin’gusting!

I wish you would.
I’d be around here more if I didn’t have to read so damned many rude remarks from you.

Yes. He can reason alright. He is reasoning for an outcome that he seeks against a woman’s reproductive rights.
I waiting to hear him argue male reproductive rights.

You deserve much better than what you have received here, but I see that you are able to defend yourself. Good for you.

I read through the thread and your first comment was innocent enough and it could have been answered to your satisfaction without all the rudeness. You on the other hand seem quite level headed and polite.

Jane is very well enmeshed in politics and has many connections within people in Congress, she is also hard as nails to her credit.

Her use of the word “we” was innocuous, she merely meant we on the left including the Progessive Caucus in Congress, with whom she is intimately familiar. This Caucus never fought hard enough for single payer but they were also overwhelmed by feckless bought out Democrats who had no interest in this because they are beholden to the Insurance industry.

So in essence she is right, “We” on the left negotiated away the single payer because the majority of Democrats never intended to consider it. This may not strictly be a negotiating away of single payer, but given the context in which she used it, it is close enough.

Anyway this was really much ado about nothing, and you are completely right that you are well within your rights to say what you like. Please don’t be dissuaded from chiming in as you like.

Her first comment:

I saw Jane Hamsher on the Ed Show. I thought she was a bit arrogant. She said “we negotiated down from single payer”. We? Who is we? She writes a blog, she does not represent anyone, she was not elected. She negotiates nothing.

I have to assume you are people who show up at parties where you know no one and your first remark insults the hostess; the next half dozen insult the other guests – none of whom you know – and claim you were misunderstood.

We understand you just fine.

This is not a party, not your blog, you are not the host. This was an ugly display of gutless mob behavior, primitive and simian at best.

fuckno, i have some sympathy for your position, but imo “simian” is just out of line. really really wish you’d drop that kind of thing. please?

We? Who is we? She writes a blog, she does not represent anyone, she was not elected. She negotiates nothing.

First, she represents herself at the very minimum, and in fact, she is represented. She is free, and correct, to count herself as part of the “we” that representation entails and to express herself as such.

Next, are you suggesting that those who have not been elected have no power to negotiate in the political arena? Let me introduce you to PACs, lobbyists, and even the damnable Catholic bishops, for starters.

Finally, of the people, by the people, and for the people. We the people. I don’t elect representatives to tell me what to do. I elect them so that I can tell them what to do. I can’t do that alone, hence the need to become part of a larger group with similar principles, goals, and ideals. You certainly don’t have to feel a part of the “We” Jane referred to, but you aren’t the whole of the universe either. Check your own arrogance, and you might come to understand where you got confused.

i didn’t watch jane, so my comment is only dependent on what i’ve read here. but the fact is that single payer activists did not compromise last summer and that is a bit of a sore point. there was no negotiation that i know of, just pre-compromise by party activists in favor of the hcan position. all that, i think, is better left aside now that we all seem to be mostly on the same page going forward (i only bring it up to correct the historical record, otherwise i’d rather not).

Thanks for the clarification. Of the 93 Representatives who Co-Sponsered HR 676, did any vote for the bill that passed the House?

lots. don’t have the names handy. but will look for links so you can figure it out if you wish:

hr 676 cosponsors (111th congress):
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d111:HR00676:@@@P
hr 676 cosponsors (110th congress):
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d110:HR00676:@@@P

final vote on hr 3962:
http://clerk.house.gov/evs/2009/roll887.xml

does that give you what you were looking for?

Sure. Thanks again. The difference in opinion on whether there was negotiation and/or compromise among those who preferred a single-payer system may be a matter of perspective.

i wasn’t referring to those who might prefer single payer, rather those who were active in their sp advocacy (there are grass roots organizations of thousands of activists). watching in real time, if there were negotiations, they did not involve single payer activists and they did not take place in public. the compromise was a pre-compromise with nothing gained (at least nothing acknowledged in public) by the pre compromise. it was quite publicly controversial at the time (summer of 2008 or earlier), with many single payer activists feeling betrayed by party activists for siding with the dem party elite position and excluding them.

again though, at this time i don’t think it serves any useful purpose to re hash all that. i just object to set the record straight.

… i’m off to sleep, glad the links are what you were looking for.

The first link doesn’t really support the idea that single payer was dead and “pre-compromised” in summer of 2008 or earlier.

My point is that “we” is as much an individual perception as it is a collective one, and perception of that is as fluid as arbitrary timelines. I am reminded to it everytime a Democrat or liberal or American is willing to compromise or negotiate on the grounds of whether women are property of others.