It seems like a pretty obvious cause and effect to me, but then again I don’t live inside the beltway.

EPU’d from last thread.

I typed yesterday that I had been watching the slomo suicide of the U.S. economy by medical costs since 1991, when I first analysed it (but of course, it had to have been a problem long before that in order to accumulate enough evidence for a macroeconomist to notice). Even so, I have been unable to predict the twists and turns of the story. Just seems to keep getting worse despite the evidence. Guessing that will be true of whatever legislation passes.

Is FDL gonna oppose the bill or not?

When will you come to a decision?

As of this minute, it seems that FDL won’t take ANY position. You seem to be afraid to call for defeat.

my only hope (probably futile) is that the President will, after we pass this mess (or he railroads it through, rather), give a major national speech with both Reid and Pelosi standing next to him, to explain to all Americans in general and Dems in particular why he so fundamentally failed to achieve his own objectives for healthcare reform and to present a 2 or 3 year roadmap to address those deficiencies through subsequent legislation.

I believe that anything short of an explanation (of this improbable sort) and a clear legislative roadmap to rectifying his failings will result in serious losses in both houses in 2010. If he tries to spin this bill as an unambiguous “victory”, he’ll be a joke with the base.

All-in-all another astonishing display of corpocracy.

I consider myself to be a member of The Stand Up Base. I will turn out.. and I will vote. But it won’t be for a centrist or moderate Democrat… never again!

If you really think about it, they’re all rich, powerful figures; and their interests absolutely overlap significantly more with each other than they do with ours; across the board. I suspect that the Democratic Party doesn’t actually care at all if Republicans make gains in the wake of lackluster Democratic performance. It doesn’t matter who’s in power, they’re still going to rake in huge amounts of money, land cushy consulting jobs, and rile up faux-outrage about their “opponents” to keep the whole canard afloat.

The fact that the attempts to subvert the public will have become continuously bold and brazen, coupled with the fact that the efforts are essentially bi-partisan, indicates to me that hammering on Democrats with their failings, by pointing at the subsequent opportunities created for Republicans, is a pointless endeavor. They don’t care.

If the Party’s don’t care about Party, then perhaps neither should we.

Only an idiot takes a position against the unknown. Is it really so crazy to wait until we are told what is in the bill to make a final judgment of the bill?

I have a question -

where are the consultants ? Even if it is just their chief legislative aide, don’t most critters have someone either on staff or on retainer to apprise them of the political landscape ?

and yes, I’m working on the premise that said consultants are inside the beltway creatures, but does anyone ever get fired for bad advice ? or is their real job simply puffing up and holding the rep’s hand ?

I don’t think it can be defeated at this point. They seem determined to pass “something” no matter now bad.

Every single left leaning blog should come out with the same message.

HELL NO. If every blog in this country stood up with a collective voice, I think it would send a powerful message.

Hell, if only the democrats in both chambers voted against it we could start over with single payer.

It can be defeated. That it can, that is why they are trying to rush it.

Great so after a year I still can’t afford insurance, and now I get a financially penalized for that. I live less than 5 minutes from canada and I am still not allowed to go buy cheaper drugs.

Burn in hell Barack you lied and hopefully your political career died from it. At least when rethugs are in office I know I am being screwed in advance…BO snuck up on me…never happen again, no money, no votes.

[Edited by Moderator: This site does not tolerate advocating violence to anyone, including legislators]

Instead of seeing this as a failure of the Democratic Party, it may be more useful to see it as the success of the corrupting influence of money on the system. This should be used to make the push for campaign finance reform and public financing of elections.

Have you seen this already this am ?

In yet another sign that the writing is on the wall for the public option, Nancy Pelosi repeatedly refused to say today that a bill without one could not pass the House, backing away from a marker she’d laid down in the past

I don’t disagree, but Dem leaders also need to learn something about the meaning of accountability to their base.

OH, it COULD be, but do you honestly think they have the spine to do it? I don’t. I believe they think that the public will take a bad bill but would be livid if nothing passed.

I suspect that, instead, you will see a great deal of triumphalism from O, R & P, about how great the bill is.

Count me in that number. Staying at home isn’t going to accomplish anything. Not into cutting my nose off to spite my face. If the registered Dems who stayed home in FL in 2000 had voted we prolly wouldn’t have had Shrub/Cheney to deal with.

Not cool to say that.

yep. And there’ll go our Senate (and probably House) majorities…. I’m not going to stay home. I’ll still show up to vote for my Dem candidates.. but Dem success rides on turnout and the excitement level for the party in general will be a lot lower. This needs to be fixed, and i agree that our leaders are probably too feckless to even bother to try.

What we do know about the bill already puts it way over the “worse than nothing” line. If you don’t see that, it’s because you don’t want to see it.

So Jenny’s point, as I understood it, is that if you won’t oppose the bill now, we have good reason to assume that you will support any bill – no matter how terrible.

I’m sure Rahm Emanuel appreciates your loyalty.

B I N G O

Z

Yep. Would see to fall squarely between 2 stools: pissing off left & right and pleasing no one who thinks she is in the center.

I wonder if there will be a lot of scofflawing of the mandate.

Like I said on an earlier thread, in a couple weeks we’re gonna see what the “progressive caucus” is made of. We go from there. Whole new ball game.

And fights are going to break out all over the place – not physical but otherwise.

So has it come to this? Being a good Democrat means shafting the actual health care providers (doctors, hospitals, etc.), and rewarding the health insurance leeches?

Then, no thank you. I’m outta there.

There simply is no major political party that supports, advocates for nor practices democracy.

Vice President Lieberman.. would have been no better… but that is another story.

I will write in someone before I simply stay home.

that is foolishness. Is it really your desire that we jump to judgment without the facts. the full info should be be out later today or maybe tomorrow. (either way very soon)

Predicting that almost all of the progressive caucus votes for whatever Rahm tells them to vote for. Be also to count nays on one hand (maybe 2 if we’re lucky).

he. Has somebody in appropriations sought to increase the IRS’s budget to hire people to create a new “Mandate Police” – breaking down doors to nab all those sick people:…. “You there on the dialysis machine: IRS! We’re here to collect for Blue Cross!”

I think the Democratic base as represented at FDL is largely ignoring the populist wave of discontent that is washing over the country from the right.

We fixate on scrubbed, massaged and messaged BLS numbers, while ignoring the fact that it is on the tail end of unemployment where the real shit will hit the fan: “Emergency Jobless Insurance Claims Surge By Most Ever In Prior Week”. It is at the end of a period of ‘safety net misery’, when unemployment runs out that desperation kicks in, and that tail is Huge!, yet the direction altering force it embodies is being ceded by the left to the Beck’s of this Nation. Go figure!

One of the reasons why they’ve uparmed local police in advance.

As soon as a few million employees hear their boss say… I would love to give you a dollar or two raise, but that would mean I have to spend much more handling and paying for insurance coverage due to mandates. So you will have to stay in a minimum wage bracket (133 or 150 percent of poverty) forever… that will earn a lot of rage.

Its’ all coming home to roost now. We see our government is not a democracy after all…at all; just a corporate front.
I’d like to see Americans refuse to participate in this rip off AND stop paying taxes altogether…starve the beast!

Here’s a little something I found months ago that everyone may want to watch when they have the time:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eAaQNACwaLw

Nothing is being ceded by the non-elected base of progressives. We can’t force people to take to the streets. I wish they would but Americans always believe “it can’t happen here.” Dangerous thinking.

Is FDL gonna oppose the bill or not?

Well that’s the question, isn’t it? Each day and week that goes by and the healthcare process comes up with a worse and worse product, those who championed the PO, and coincidentally told the rest of us to get stuffed, are losing their credibility. It is one thing to engage in a process in good faith and have it go south on you, and quite another to stick with it through every stage of its putrefaction.

Jon Walker is simply wrong. We already have enough information to know that whatever bill that comes out should be opposed by all progressives. It won’t contain costs, it will force millions to buy coverage they can’t use, it won’t cover everyone, it discriminates against women and the undocumented, in short it won’t work. We can see the trends. There will be no last minute miracles.

Some of us have been saying no for some time now. We await our friends and allies on the progressive left who fought for the PO to follow suit.

I think I asked selise how mandates are working in MA, and she said that there was not a lot of rage so far, but iirc, she thought MA would be different from the U.S. for a reason I’ve forgotten.

You did see what Jane wrote yesterday, right?

an exceptionally high proportion covered by private plans… which is what enabled the exchange there in the first place

But it won’t be for a centrist or moderate Democrat… never again!

You’ve had plenty to choose from, eh…?

If not Nader in ’12, how’s about Spitzer…? ;-)

That would make sense.

Woolsey, my critter was on KO last night suggesting that something is happening in the caucus…but I’ll believe it when I see it.

Had the rare occasion to listen to Thom Hartmann this morning and was pleasantly surprised by his advocacy of co-opting the T-baggers wherever possible. Unfortunately,dare I say; ‘the veal pen at FDL’ derides even considering the populist levels of discontent, preferring instead to cede the most fertile ground to the LaRouchie right.

Fountas vs DOR MA Comm 2009-9-526

Health Insurance Mandates and government imposed tax penalties??

Oral argument today! MA Appeals Court! G. Fountas was denied a jury trial by a Essex Superior Court. Appealed

Funny no discussion of this case during MA Senate Primaries! Wonderrrrrrrrrr whyyyyyyyy??? Emptywheel, where r u?

There are always local issues on the ballot in primary and general elections. Those measures directly affect the people living in that area. How they can stay home and let the local neoliberals steamroll them is beyond me. It took us years to get the Hometown Democracy amendment on next year’s ballot. The developers and their supporters tried everything to kill the petition, going to far as getting the legislature to pass a law that said people could remove their names from the petition. The FL SC said no to that so the initiative will be on the ballot next year. There’s nothing the neoliberals can do to stop it now. It will pass.

Please don’t start that garbage again today. FDL has ceded nothing.

Man.. I will write in Earnest T. Bass before I donate so much as a hanging chad for another feckless or worse Dem.

Doesn’t matter who to me really.. as long as my message is two things.. move left (way left) and no to the powers that be.

which is also what made it cost effective for some insurers to offer (through the exchange) a few crappy but actually somewhat (barely) affordable options ($180 to $350 per month alternatives) to try to capture the bottom 3% to 4% of the market (from both wealth and risk perspectives). It doesn’t mean that those people have anything approximating adequate coverage given deductibles, co-pays, limitations on coverage, crappy HMO procedures, etc. – getting sick would still bankrupt them because their mandated plans are so inadequate.. but at least they’re not going to be fined or prosecuted for their trouble. Dickens would’ve written a book on crap like this.

Median U.S. household income, 2006: $48,201

Median income of House of Representatives members, 2007: $724,258

Any more explanation needed?

downer donkey.

I just called my rep, Grijalva, and asked if he had a response yet to Pelosi backing off the public option. His local office here said not yet. I told them I would support him voting no on the bill. Lynn Woolsey did not answer that question directly when KO asked her last night but she seemed to leave open the possibility that the Progressive Caucus would vote against it. I guess we will have to wait and see whether Pelosi speaks for them or not.

I agree with you. I’ve been thinking quietly for a while that Obama might even welcome losing Congress so he can be the conservative he really is. He won’t have to make the explanations to the base; he’ll expect understanding that nothing could be done when the Greedy Oily Party won’t deal at all. Then, he can roll to an unimpressive victory in 2012. Never say never, but given the state of the GOP, the administration probably figures they’ll just have to be sane to win. I think Obama would prefer to focus on international relations where he can be a positive force by just being CheneyBush; he’s always seemed to me to be less interested in domestic issues. He wants to be a peacemaker, and that role in the U.S. is really not available right now to anyone–the animosity (especially from the right) is just too great.

Ironically, we passed ‘public financed’ elections last year, but, the powers that be are using budgetary tricks to stymie it at all costs…! That is a true indicator of how the entrenched powers continue to thwart the will of the people…!

I have been trying to point this out for some time. Both the Republicans and now the Democrats have mishandled the economy in really devastating ways. This whole healthcare debate has been extremely infuriating but will likely be irrelevant. The country is headed toward a big D depression. This could have been avoided or mitigated but our elites are too busy looting the country and feeding at the trough to notice. They have spent trillions on the banks and almost nothing to help out the rest of us. A Rube Goldberg $787 billion stimulus had only transient effects. It is now being supplemented by an even smaller $200 billion jobs program. There will probably be a bailout for states next year (before the elections). But all of this is too little, poorly directed, and with no larger design in mind. It has only slowed our march to the cliff, not turned us away from it.

More than ever before the base of the Democratic party needs to turn out for the 2010 campaings. But for the primary elections, not the general. Progressives need to be galvinizing each other to go out and organize citizens to dump these Wall Street sychophants once and for all.

Will it happen?

Over at Think Progress today there was a post on the reactionary tea baggers who aim to storm Senate offices soon and “stay there until they force us to leave”. Their point? To stop the government from taking over healthcare in America!! Would that it were even remotely true, right?

Indeed, over the past year you encountered this sort of thing again and again at left wing blogs. Always the ring wing forces storming Washington to demand the government move even farther in a conservative direction. Hardly ever the left wingers doing the same thing to force it in a more liberal direction.

What is wrong with this fucking picture?

We are smack dab in the middle of an economic crisis on Main Street in which increasingly more working class and lower middle class folks are being shit on by the powers that be in New York and Washington. You would thing these folks would be the natural constituents of progressive forces able to point out clearly why they need to organize against the rich and powerful folks who do the actual shitting. Instead, it is the corporate tax cutter, libertarian Glenn Becksters that corral them.

We know what is wrong with the fucking picture. We just can’t come up with a way to fix it. Some say there are too many progressive intellectuals brilliantly dissecting what is wrong in America theoretically and not enough progressive organizers brillantly translating those words into actual worlds instead.

But it takes folks from both ends of the activist spectrum. We just need to figure out a way to bring the two together.

In other words, bring back the 1930s…bring back the 1960s.

Soon. Very, very soon. Or a tipping point will have been reached where the reactionaries own Washington—out on the streets, in all the boardrooms, on all the most powerful Congressional committees.

And, it goes without saying, in the White House.

We have to ask. Will Obama run in 2012—as a Republican?

What exactly is the garbage you refer to? I certainly never thought of Thom Hartmann as a garbage merchant.

Grijalva is a No

You did see what Jane wrote yesterday, right?

Could you possibly be more cryptic? Do you oppose this healthcare process now or not? How much of yours, and unfortunately our, credibility are you willing to expend on this cancerous turkey?

When the Dems took majority in Congress a single payer type health care was a sure thing..now it’s dead.

Next on the Republican DINO chop block is Medicare and Social Security..don’t have to mention Medicaid.

The Dem Party is very nearly dead at this time killed from within. The turncoat Dems that took the insurance and Pharma bribes will probably head for the hills with their loot. I say throw them in a special prison directly made for hypocrits liars and thieves. There may be some laid off Gitmo doctors that know a thing or two about handling them.

Yeah, what’s the median income for the folks on Wall Street who bankroll the folks in Congress?

I’ve been thinking about “common ground” between progressives and Tea Party supporters. Other than the financial mess I don’t see a lot of issues where we agree. War. Abortion. Health care. Taxation. Immigration. Not that we couldn’t find common cause with some segment on these issues but I don’t know that the numbers would be significant.

The self congratulatory myopia is gratingly disconcerting.

message discipline to the end, eh Jon?

large majorities support some variation/combination of Single Payer and/or the nebulous, ineffable, untried sellout compromise Public Option, with its policy wonk constituency.

can’t you bear to include SP, even now?

so, it is a little fanciful to attribute demoralized (D)’s only to the demise of the cherished PO – it wasn’t really that cherished, or even understood, by that many. The entire kabukitastic charade simply revealed the true allegiances of the corporatized Democratic Party leadership, and this demoralized the long-suffering, ill-treated base.

That we are ceding our position. We are not. Progressives did not exist in organized numbers just a few years ago and we do now. If all you can do is yell at us because the problems are not solved, then you are no solving them either. What would be your suggestions to begin this overnight turn around that you seem to expect?

HelenaHandbasket is right. Until there is public financing of elections, there won’t be a public option — or anything else coming from congress that truly benefits the public.

I don’t think it really matters to the Democrats in Congress that they suffer massive defeats in 2010. They are not members of a “Party” but rather a “class” and they know the Republicans will make sure their “class” interests are protected as they would protectect the class interests of the Republicans. No matter how bad things may get for the average citizen, those of the plutocracy, whether they call themselves Republican or Democrat, will do just fine. A system so corrupt, ossified and incapable of governing in the interests of all the people looses its legitimacy and becomes an object for revolution.

The response to activism from the left is so very different from the response to activism from teabaggers, etc. When the left turns out for anything in any number, the powers that be assume it’s the usual suspects howling at the wind. CW will say to ignore the left.

What has had the most effect on the government over the last generation? It has been the quiet, steady takeover of the R party by the religious right. It hasn’t been people in the streets. It’s been money and backdoor deals.

If this gets ping ponged by Pelosi, then it looks like Stupak is proposing that the entire bill be added to the annual appropriations bill, to make it harder for the opposition to do anything about it, given all the corrupt pet projects in any appropriations package that nobody’s going to want to scrutinize or jeopardize. Quoeth The Hill:

“Rep. Bart Stupak (D-Mich.) said Wednesday that the talk among members was that the bill could be added to the omnibus appropriations bill and passed during the holidays, even between Christmas and New Year’s Day. He said that that line of thought included adding an increase in the nation’s debt limit.”

It should be (V-Mich) for Vatican right?

I really like the idea that they are not members of a party but of a class. That’s a great way to say exactly what’s going on. They don’t have standards and morals or beliefs – just money.

Funny how it is that on everything from the public option to school vouchers to the occupation of Iraq, one set of positions is consistently labeled “liberal” – despite the fact they enjoy the endorsements of the majority of Usians. These aren’t liberal opinions then; these are moderate, mainstream positions. Accordingly, I would suggest jettisoning terms like “liberal” or “progressive” or even “conservative”. Those delineations are soooo 20th Cen. Instead, in keeping with the observation above that “The public option is still supported by 59% of Americans . . .” I would apply the term “Real Americans”, as in “Real Americans want a real public option.” There. An accurate statement that does away with outmoded labels, and one, further, that is much harder to argue against.

You paint the Democrats with too broad a brush. There are 58 Democrats in the Senate. 53 of them support the public option. Five do not – Baucus, Conrad, Landrieu, Ben Nelson, and Lincoln. They represent states that together have 10.5 million people – 3% of the population. But because of the Senate filibuster rule, these 5 Dems, plus Lieberman, are able to kill the will of the majority of the American public AND the majority of the Dems in Congress. These 5 Dems, plus Lieberman, are totally tethered to the insurance industry. Don’t blame Obama or the Senate Dem leadership for this quagmire. The rules that thwart majority rule – the filibuster and campaign finance laws – need to be changed. That’s the problem. These 6 Senators are total hypocrites, as I document in this article in the Nation last week: http://www.thenation.com/doc/20091214/dreier. Obama made two mistakes:
1. He endorsed Lieberman in his re-election campaign when he was running as an Independent after the Dems had denied him their party nomination. Look how Lieberman, the “Senator from Aetna,” has repaid Obama! Obama should have endorsed Lamont.
2. When Max Baucus wanted Obama to nominate his girlfriend to be the US Attorney from Montana, Obama should have said: “I’ll nominate her IF you agree to support a strong public option on health care.”

Peter Dreier

ding to that.

they regard their class membership as inalienable, and a minor loss of status to minority party in Congress will make little difference, certainly not a difference worth annoying their corporate Johns for.

Bill Clinton and Barak Obama are having a joke on the American Democrats. Neither one of them were EVER ANYTHING BUT BLUE DOGS. That is why Clinton so readily signed the bills that have ruined our economy, ruined media competition and real news, and ruined our future for our kids. Along with Phil Gramm and the rest of the criminal Republicans, his buddies and mentors, he turned over the keys to our future to the Wall Street. His so-called “health care reform” would have been just as bad as Obamas or worse. Another handout to the crooked insurance companies.

Obama Hopeychange is also a weak, triangulating joker who is depending upon his appearance and vague speeches to distract sincere progressive from realizing what he is. He STOKES the fires of the likes of Rush and Fox to make himself appear liberal to the base, but this is a sham designed to fool you. He loves it when you freak out and criticize Sara Palin because it makes him appear to be something he is not. That is why he is not mad at Lieberscrew, for example. They are working in tandem with Rahm Dead fish, Dirty Harry and all the others.

The words, “public option” mean nothing anymore, so neither do the polls.

Obama and the sham Democrats are about to learn what happens when you pass legislation with 30% approval or less. This is why the TARP and porkulus are STILL HAMMERING THEM. PASSING THOSE BILLS, WITH ALMOST NO PUBLIC SUPPORT, has totally undermined EVERYTHING Hopeychange can hope to do because NO ONE BELIEVES OR TRUSTS THE DEMOCRATS AND HOPEYCHANGE. The Democrats are praying that the Republicans can make this thing still fail, believe me.

Soooo, labeling those who don’t want a public option, for example, would be Unreal Americans? That should go over well.

No Public Option means no emancipation for the American people from Corporate health Injurers. The perpetuation of this system is Involuntary leveraged Corporate Servitude by definition! Bought and paid for by corporate America for the benefit of corporate America at the expense of American’s lives and liberties. Those disgusting members of the US Congress hellbent on protecting “CORPORATIONS” should be voted out, [Edited by Moderator: Suggesting violence is prohibited on this site.]

Promises of reform by corporations is illusory. It took one hundred years for civil right legislation to address the deprivation of constitutional protections by segregationists states after emancipation. Consumer Protection?? To think for a moment that corporate America will not renege on promises, in the absence of punitive law is delusional thinking, given our nation’s history!

I don’t think progressive should go crawling to baggers for a hug. I think fire breathing liberals with a very simple message could earn a lot of support. It’s how the gopers did it over a few decades.

But we need a bunch of Graysons… who actually vote the correct way… Which, imo, he did not on the House health care bill.

SD, I believe we all agree about the unsustainable growth of deficit of democracy in this country. The crucible of democracy resides in Washington, so the state of affairs can be directly linked to Gov. Generally Democrats believe in the positive impact of Gov. Reps, not so much – if you agree, you haven’t been paying attention.

The anti gov. Right has a huge advantage in an environment that has spawned a failed government ‘Failed State’. They are wedded to their party as much/little as the progressive left is to the Dems. We are experiencing a totally new dynamic which is not being fully appreciated and therefore constructively discussed on these threads.

The Democrats shot themselves in the foot and are now trying to stand in a circle, holding hands and cheering their stupidity as success.

The question is: how can we use this to help get more progressives elected in 2010?

What would be your suggestions to begin this overnight turn around that you seem to expect?

Why do you continue to read non existent shit into my comments?

With the Dean 50 State program we could still be up and running but the Dems stopped it. We would have had constant contact with locals and that’s what we need…. 365 days a year. Who wants to serve the masters every 2 or 4 years and work hard and get nothing for it. Somehow we need to put that back together.

By the way has everyone noticed how the public option even in the days leading up to its demise and had long ceased to be referred to as robust? Not even Jon bothered to use it in his post.

Yep, we have to force the D’s to caucus with progressives to get anything through.

“It hasn’t been people in the streets. It’s been money and backdoor deals.”

The past is merely prologue to unintended evolution of events!

Does anyone have a link to the names on the progressive caucus? Never mind. I googled it.

Why are you so angry at us? We have all worked hard to get things done. Why don’t you yell at the Blue Dogs? Challenge Lieberman to a duel? Go sit in at Lincoln’s office?

I love Raul, he’s the real deal. Now I wonder how many votes from the Progressive Caucus it will take to kill it? I so want to believe that this is FINALLY the issue that the progressives won’t roll over for. And I say that as someone who has not had health insurance for the past 10 years. I’m not yet 55 but my self-employment and longterm lack of coverage might “qualify” me for something no matter what they try to pass. Qualifying and affording are two different things, however, and in any case, a mandate without a PO is just completely unacceptable to me. I would rather continue to take my chances than pay a private insurance company.

I’m with you. I will ONLY VOTE FOR PROGRESSIVES.

I did not use robust because the robust version of the public option (paying Medicare rates) was killed about a month ago in the House.

Don’t blame Obama or the Senate Dem leadership for this quagmire. The rules that thwart majority rule – the filibuster and campaign finance laws – need to be changed.

Those rules were not graven in stone by a stern deity. It’s their clubhouse. They can change the rules. They could use reconciliation. They could use the nuclear option and get rid of the filibuster, period. That they do not, is their choice, and they are responsible for making that choice.

Step 1: Strengthen the Progressive Caucus. I’d rather see a strong block of 20 or 30 than a useless block of 85. Then recruit primary candidates who will pledge their allegiance to the CPC. That will give voters a choice of Corporate candidate or progressive candidate.

I see a lot of names on the progressive caucus list that have proved to be not progressive at all.

Yeah, we need to streamline the Caucus, IMO. Lean and mean.

Why are you projecting emotions to ideas that do not represent yours? I see things more like Hugh, or georgewalton. I don’t address you personally, – so ask yourself why do you feel as though I was gratuitously attacking you? Bring attention to the demerits of my thoughts but otherwise please just back off, Twain!

I did not use robust because the robust version of the public option (paying Medicare rates) was killed about a month ago in the House

Which brings us to the question of why didn’t you move into opposition on the healthcare bill then? I mean the whole deal was supposed to be to pressure members of Congress to oppose any measure which didn’t have a robust public option. So why didn’t you follow your own policy position?

Good point… how do we do it?

I’m not interested in anybody’s pledge. I want to elect people who have a track record of “progressive” thinking. I’m not gonna support somebody who mouths progressive ideas and policies but has previously acted in the opposite direction. One of the reasons I say we need to vet our candidates better than we have in the past. We got fooled by some this last time around.

To expect change from the halls of Congress or the WH is naive. These are not enlightened representatives of the people but members of a ruling elite. Meaningful change will never arise spontaneously from this ruling elite for any change is seen as a threat to their positions of power and priviledge. Change ultimately comes from the people emboldened by the power of a “movement.” Movements terrify ruling elites and they either adopt the tenets of that movement or they use coercive force to stifle any social/political movement. The battle lines are being drawn.

Just sent a “strongly worded” message to Maloney. With that and a subway card …

I am simply trying to understand why you attack your allies. We are progressive. We do our part. What is it you want us to do? You’re not clear about that. I can only read what your words say.

I think it’s no more complex than that it is hard to leave a love even though it went sour.

Amen to that. We’ve been floundering much of the time… eye’s off that goal since the Dem primary sucked all the air out of us.

I think you’ve correctly identified the cause. But there’s another side to it, which is leadership. You always have the Baucus’, Lincolns’, Conrad’s and Byah’s (you forgot the lattermost one). It’s the role of strong leadership to bring people like that back into the fold – both by rallying public/constituent support and through political suasion and dealing.. not just greet them with preemptive surrender.. which is basically what Reid did, and the President encouraged.

I agree completely, and as we’ve seen lately, pledges are not getting the results we want. Point taken.

However, the purpose is to create a real voting bloc that will have actual power to negotiate with the Corporatists. Do I care if the active members of the CPC are D’s. Nope. Just want a strong progressive body in the Congress that represents my interests.

David Dayen has a fresh cross-post up and already running: “House Takes Up Financial Reform Bill After Concessions To Moderates”

here we go again. Make concessions first.. then start crafting a bill. Leadership again, I see.

Dean must have a list of the people who worked this, the volunteers, etc. and we could start to contact them by phone, mailers, whatever. If we could get the names of just a few organizers in each state it would help. They need to be in the loop and to feel that their help is needed. Even if they met in small groups and talked about their ideas it would be helpful at election time. To use a southern saying “you have to prime the pump.”

The FDL never made medicare payment rates part of the line in the sand. The pledge has remained unchanged for months

http://action.firedoglake.com/page/s/publicoption

We need you to call progressive members of Congress and ask that they Take the Pledge to vote against any health care bill that doesn’t have a public plan which is:

* available nationwide
* on day one
* and accountable to Congress and the voters

You can find their phone numbers below. After you call, let us know what they say in the box to the left.

At a point, one has to draw a line. Watching the open bribery has convinced me that compromise when voting is useless. We might just as well have the goop or the bagotea party as the democrat. They have each proven that they care nothing for the public in any way. 80% now favor the government do what we ask and give us a public health coverage plan for everyone. This appears to include a lot of people that aren’t democratic voters, doesn’t it? They compromise until it is gone, and nothing but insurance giveaway happens, again. They ignore us.
Please don’t ask me to vote for you again. After all, what is the point? There is no way that you are “better” than the other side. You have just proven that you are far worse. The other parties acknowledge they take bribes and that law and order is meaningless. The democrat party just sits and whines and gives up. It is rudderless and taking on water. I for one, am sorry I helped any of you now. For none of you seem able to stand up and do what we need, do you?

Again, I’m 60 years old. And in these dire times, I can’t help but think back on all the tumultuous marches, demonstrations and protests I participated in in Washington and Baltimore and New York. Let me tell you: It is exhilarating to be part of a mass movement for change.

More than ever I want to see that back again. And more than ever I am convinced that without it, little will really change systemically. The voters will “punish” the Democrats in 2010 by reelecting the Republicans if the economy and the healthcare crisis remain the same on Main Street.

Which of course means stupidly punishing themselves again because the left is still unable to make them see why.

You can’t ignore the left if they bring hundreds of thousands of protesters marching to the capitol. Over and again. And if they successfuly organize campaigns against the DINOs in Congress and the White House.

But until that happens the Democrats can generally ignore them because they know they have no where else to go short of allowing the greater of two evil Republicans back into power.

The PO in its current form is weaker than this mess if you can believe it.

As they say the devil is in the details, if they can somehow placate the 5 Morons long enough to vote for it and not have the Progressive Caucus shut it down, then maybe this “thing” might work.

Combined with S-Chip and bringing down the age of Medicare to 55 would cover, I think it was 28-30 million people.

Finally those too poor (including myself) would be included in the expansion of Medicaid which covers families up to $62,000 and I assume individuals that make decidedly LESS.

This would shift the cost (with no other forms of cost control) onto the Federal Government, increasing how much it already spends on health care. So they will have to find some other ways to save money.

Digitizing medical files and billing and going to a magnetized ID card type system like Singapore it would save a ton of money.

So while its not Single Payer, to be quite honest, in California we already have a bill ready to go, if we can make the next Governor sign it into law and as long as Insurance Companies and Fed doesn’t spend their time trying to stop it, those without it will just have to start a movement on their own.

As it stands the coast are far more liberal than the middle or the deep south and to be frank it will more than likely stay that way for years to come.

For True Progressives this is lost but the PO had been watered down so far, that Conference might not have even made it “Robust”.

Blaming Obama for “vague” speeches? Why not blame pundits and Congress members of being “vague” as almost none of them could tell you just what the PO is and can’t be honest and say the final version of the PO passed by the House was basically TRASH.

Thanks Twain for the clarification. Perhaps I am not buying into the soothing assurances of our leaders that the worst is behind us. Not only that, I am actually extremely concerned that the Economy is completely disfunctional, that Bernanke and Geithner are merely transferring the ‘loot’ from the Ship of State to private life boats before the whole caboodle disintegrates. My sense of urgency is greater than yours, because these conditions have no precedent! The Captains of the Industry are shaking in their shorts afraid of looking behind the curtain, because it scares the bejeesus out of them; so I too am a bit more anxious.

Will FDL be offering a bonus for making more calls to our “representatives?” I might suggest hammers that we could then use to hit ourselves in the head.

Nice !

I have seen this legalistic explanation before, but it is not what most of the posts on this site were about. They were about a robust public option. In any case, you have known for months that a PO, even a very limited one, was not in the cards until 2013 or 2014. Perhaps you have a different definition of day one but no matter how you cut it why haven’t you months ago, or a month ago, or today joined the opposition to this healthcare travesty?

Progressive today, Blue Dog tomorrow. It’s the class not the “wing” of a particular party.

Both the House and the Senate Democratic majorities will be lost in 2010. The LACK of enough intestinal fortitude to stand up for the people these clowns say they represent but worry about how much their next envelope of hundreds will contain is criminal. They WILL pay a price…

cannot be repeated enough. Vertical, not horizontal axis, is where the shadow really falls.

Unfortunately, they have been ignoring the left in spite of large numbers turning out in Washington and other cities for at least a generation. Civil Rights Era crowds, maybe not. But in numbers much, much, MUCH bigger than the measley teabagger rallies that get so much attention.

I would love to march on DC but at my age that’s out. I’m on your side – have been a progressive all my life and that wasn’t always easy where I lived. I have complete contempt for the DC elites – both parties. It’s not a good time.

this place is a bummer

I personally don’t believe they’ll put Republicans back in power, they have proven to be nuts and will loose more seats than they gain actually.

What you might see is more Independents in the House next year or Republicans a run to the middle as the “Conservative” faction will chase Republicans to the middle because they might not be able to win State wide elections being labled “Racist Tea-bagging Morons”

interesting. Just got yet another blast email from MoveOn entitled “Unacceptable: How Could They?” and calling for emergency calls to the WH and senators. Futile.. but interesting nonetheless.

Amen.

I just worry though that too many, including too many here, are still clinging to that “well, at least he/she is better than the Republican” idea. (lesser of two evils).

The Democratic Party needs to be sent a jolting message, loud and clear. If progressives really do withhold their votes from all Dems except progressive ones, then they’ll learn they need to run progressive candidates in order to win. If we keep supporting these blue dog type Dems because of the “lesser of two evil” argument, then the Party learns the lesson that they can run any kind of Democrat and count on the progressive votes.

I don’t like it any more than anyone else. But the only way we’re gonna change the mindset of the Party (if we even can), is to send them a loud, unequivocal message that we will no longer tolerate, or even vote for, non-progressive Dems. Otherwise, it’s gonna be same ‘ole, same ‘ole.

Depressed Donkey -> We’re all Eeyore now.

Then we are all on the same side, don’t expect you to march, just would like you to consider that the HCR issue is (in collusion with MSM) doing one other thing! We have stopped paying attention to Wall Street, and the immediate danger to the well being of the country has its real and evil residence around 850 Broad!

Single payer was never a sure thing and in fact was a thing that was never going to happen in this Congress and it is not the fault of progessive democrats or the White House. Red State democrats and Lieberman would never vote for single payer and the votes were never there.

I’m feeling more fiesty today than depressed.

did you honestly think “day one” meant the same day the bill was signed? I agree when the pledge was written the wording could have been better (we never that Democrats were so stupid as to delay expansion of coverage until 2014).

The important thing about “day one” being the day all the new customers came online. Once healthy people select a plan they tend to stick with it.

Getting a good PO that could grab 10 million of that new batch of people as they first started signing up is important. If it was added later, after the expansion, it would run into the chicken and egg problem about market share and prices.

fdl spearheaded a fundraiser that raised hundreds of thousands of dollars for the cpc members who pledged on their own version of “robust” (the medicare rates, which has other issues i’ll ignore for now) as well as those members who made the fdl pledge. as far as i know i’m the only fdl person (and i’m only a commenter) who whipped their rep (and that was directly, not even through an aide) to follow through on that pledge. i also told darcy burner (via comments at open left) that the cpc would have no credibility if they backed down.

letting those members go back on their pledge with no accountability after raising money for them was embarrassing as hell and major blow to their credibility and ours.

I agree. I don’t know what the CPC thought they were doing. Still that was not FDL’s pledge they took.

agreed – but fdl helped raise a ton of money for them based on that pledge (their own). we should have attempted to hold them to it, or not raised the money. my two cents anyway.

(and fwiw, i thought the fdl pledge was violated too, but understand that was not the consensus view)

BE A FORTY PERCENTER. Don’t vote for ANY Dem (or GOOPer) in ’10 or ’12. Right now, the whole party sold us out. They EXPECT us to swallow hard and go to the polls. Wanna kill off blue dogs? DON’T VOTE. Wanna make the “progressives” who will soon sell us out on the Pub option, as they have on so many other things, take note? DON’T VOTE. Othewise, we are just in the veal pen with MoveOn, NARAL, and all the rest.

“The House health care bill contains the biggest roll back of women’s reproductive rights in a generation.”

But but but… the democratic platform (pdf) says “The Democratic Party strongly and unequivocally supports Roe v. Wade and a woman’s right to choose a safe and legal abortion, regardless of ability to pay, and we oppose any and all efforts to weaken or undermine that right.”

“The Senate bill has the most stupid, vile, bigoted anti-immigrant idea I’ve even seen in a Democratic bill.” Check out page 45 for the democrats supposed platform on immigrants.

One wonders if the democrats have read the party platform.

hey hey hey..
easy there cowboy.

Let’s see what’s in the bill. what you’re saying about Jon is unfair and inaccurate.

Don’t be a left-wing freeper.

The match should be in following the Constitution. I am so tired of John Murtha building airports to no where with a valuable treasure.

As an example, with taxes our current system is a cumbersome industry, that yields very low value to society. By moving to both a simple structure (individual flat rate) and competitive (corp rate of 10%) we would create prosperity.

Food for thought –
There is no investment without profits, and there are no jobs without investment.
Likewise there is no charity without prosperity.

Unfortunately, they have been ignoring the left in spite of large numbers turning out in Washington and other cities for at least a generation.

That’s a good point, true, but after mass demonstrations back in the 50s, 60s and 70s, the marchers didn’t just go back home and wait for the next one. Many [like me in Baltimore] were hooked into grassroots, community organizations that kept up the pressure [especially locally] day in and day out. That is woefully missing in today’s progressive movement.

Sure, the mainstream media will ignore the left because they embrace the interests of their advertisers on Wall Street. But the nation can’t ignore a genuine mass moverment. Did they ignore the civil rights and feminist movements?…the anti-war movement?…the post Stonewall gay rights movement?

Did they ignore the workers rights movements in the 1930s?

They tried to, sure. But workers, women, people of color, LGBT folks and peace advocates made tremendous progress over the decades precisely because they would not be ignored.

I don’t see that anymore. It’s a damn shame.

We need it all back again—desparately, in these dire times.

Instead of not voting, let’s organize a new party. The dem and repub have been taken over by corporations. And let’s get good candidates to run.

I personally don’t believe they’ll put Republicans back in power, they have proven to be nuts and will loose more seats than they gain actually.

Well, 1994 is still rather fresh in my mind. Newt Gingrich and Rush Limbaugh on every fucking magazine cover, in every fucking newspaper headline. If the voters are pissed off at the Democrats they will elect Republicans. Where else can they go? I don’t see any viable third parties on the horizon—left or right?

And, besides, it becomes increasingly more apparent that the Repulicrats and the Democans are interchangable anyway on Wall Street. And if they are interchangable there they are interchangable in Washington. At least regarding the issues the Big Buckmeisters care most about.

The only viable recourse is to elect political office holders who will not play the game with the folks on K Street.

Everything then revolves around how to go about doing that.

I think I’m going to do some research on the Greens. They seem somewhat popular here in Europe. I wonder what kind of track record, if any, they have in the States.

Not all dems are sellouts. I will vote for the good ones!

Soooo, labeling those who don’t want a public option, for example, would be Unreal Americans? That should go over well.

I’ve got no problems with saying that those who don’t support the public option are not real Americans. Just as I would say that those who are okay with vouchers or torture are not real Americans. ‘Cuz really, they ain’t. If calling them out for what they are upsets the poor thin-skinned dears, too bad.

The “I can’t find my backbone/Republicans in hiding” calling themselves Democrat have totally lost my interest, votes and money!

I am sick to death of the do nothing Democrats who keep blaming those nasty ol Republicans for everything.

Develop a backbone, get together and stay on message then shove a solid Liberal agenda down the gapping throats of Republicans!

Until they do they can all piss off!

Many people are getting cynical. Some of them think if it does not happen before the election it’s just a campaign promise.

Whatever the final grand plan may be, it may not happen at all if some progress does not happen before the election. Something needs to be done now about healthcare and jobs that people can see happen before the election. Not everything can be solved by the election, but some action needs to be seen before then.

A campaign promise is one thing, but what if something like another war comes up by 2014, or another excuse to bailout Wall St? Would we still get the promised healthcare? It’s easier to break a campaign promise than it is to take away healthcare rights that have already been given.

is voting 3rd party or just not voting for a moderate dem. I am sick of corporate whore elected officials.

And if the major parties themselves have been playing ball with K Street? 43% of former members of Congress return as lobbyists. http://www.citizen.org/pressroom/release.cfm?ID=1999 And there is some evidence that the D party, voting with its dollars, would rather see the R win than a non-plutocratic leftist. http://www.berkeleydailyplanet.com/issue/2009-12-10/article/34262?headline=Reforming-the-Democratic-Party-

I just think the reality is that Jim DeMint and Diane Feinstein have a lot more in common with each other than they do with any of us, so it should come as no surprise when, after the dust settle, our politics arrive at conclusions that help both of them a lot more than it helps us.

As such, the only reason why a Democrat would be upset that a Republican took over power would be because the configuration of finding advantage for the rich and privileged will be slightly less personally advantageous for the minority Party, but still significantly advantageous compared to someone coming into power who was a legitimate reformer.

Come to think of it, John MacArthur touches on this concept in his book “You Can’t Be President”

I happen to think that representative democracy is a completely pointless institution anyway. I don’t think the evidence is very good that people are any more capable at selecting qualified proxies for their interests than they are capable of directly deciding their interests. All we’ve accomplished with representative democracy is making sure that we put the interests of some highly-competitive, monied, landed, and narcissistic person directly ahead of the interests of the public. Something which seems like no great achievement of governance.

The problem; 40 million Americans did not have health insurance. The solution: pass a bill and make them subject to a fine for not having it. Yes we can, Yes we can,

As much as I love the idea of the progressives staying home on election nite I know better. No matter how much sht the dems make them eat the progressives will eat it and like it. Trust me, Arriana and Jane will be wearing their reelect Obama shirts in 2012.

Hi, I am new here. I have been wanting to join after seeing Jane on tv. I am a 65 year old Retired RN Certified Risk Manager. I worked for the Dept. of Veterans Affairs for years before my retirement. My duties included trying to improve the care given to our Veterans by not only reviewing physician care, but reviewing all suicides, sucide attempts, reviewing patient complaints, etc etc. I have over 40 years of experience and have also owned my own consulting medical/legal business. My clients were lawyers, insurance companies and business owners. I consider myself an expert when it comes to healthcare reform, the medical/legal risks and cost containment. One of my biggest concerns is the amount of fraud,waste and abuse in Medicare. I know first hand, from auditing my husband and my medical bills, that billions of dollars could be saved, by stopping these practices, and this money that is saved could be used to help pay for the insurance for those uninsured. I have tried, with no success, to write our Senators, Medicare and the White House to inform them of my concerns about Medicare spending, and to give simple recommendations to eleviate the problems. Todate no one has contacted me, and the one reason I wanted to join this site, was the hope that perhaps I could explain my ideas and to see if we can get our representatives to implement my recommendations.

My biggest concern about 2010 is that the Progressives will not turn out. This would be a major mistake because the teabaggers are already being activated for that election. If the public, is as upset as they are now, it’s possible that these right wing fringe candidates might be elected, and this would be a disaster. There are already rumblings, that they want Medicare overturned, and to do away with Medicaid. It is also very likely they would try to get the healthcare bill, that we may not be pleased with, overturned. If these changes took place, the millions of people including the young and the elderly, would lose their healthcare.

I come here asking that Progressives activate and ensure that we do have good Progressive candidates running in 2010, and not allow the right wing to destroy America.

No. I’m the Kill the Bill guy and I’m also waiting to see what’s in it before I decide.

Hugh, I tend to agree. But, I think the details of the bill are important. If Medicare is made available to all 55 and over next year at some reasonable cost, that is an advance. If the Insurance companies have to use 90 cents out of every dollar on costs, then that is an advance as long as that medical loss ratio is applied to them next year. If Medicaid is extended then that is an advance depending on how that is done. I agree that most likely this is just another bait and switch and that all the positively elements have already been gutted. But we will know that soon now.

Robert X. Cringely has historically had a pretty good ear to the ground, an eye for important detail, and a solid grasp of cause and effect. Here’s his take on the housing situation:

http://www.housingwatch.com/2009/12/10/no-jobs-no-housing-no-bull/

Basically: yep, Hooverbama.

Peter, it takes only 50 + 1 (the VP) to get rid of the filibuster forever. So, why won’t the 53 do it?

“It is a knee-jerk, draconian, political move that attempts to appease the teabaggers while ending up costing the taxpayers even more money. Instead of buying insurance, the undocumented immigrants will be forced to use the emergency rooms for all their basic health care needs.”

How is this the “teabagger’s” fault? I thought their complaint was that illegal immigrants *do* get free healthcare in the emergency room, while they get calls from collections? In other words, nothing changed.

And how is the federal health insurance mandate– current private market or even public option–anything other than a pre-emptive call from collections–without the halthcare?

This thing is a right wing Republican making machine.