As Randy Shaw noted the other day, people invested a lot in Obama’s campaign and many are understandably loath to believe that they were sold a bill of goods with regard to health care. But that fiction gets harder and harder to maintain.
Here’s Booman, upset that I said that the trigger was something that Rahm Emanuel “has been fighting for since he [Obama] took office”:
Rahm Emanuel floated the trigger in the Wall Street Journal on July 7th, which is hardly “since he took office.” Also, Rahm Emanuel didn’t actually take office; Barack Obama did. Emanuel is the chief of staff to the president, not the president. He’s not the decider, and he doesn’t go give quotes to the Wall Street Journal that are at cross-purposes with his boss’s wishes. His July 7 quote should be taken in the context in which it was given. The White House was trying to break through an impasse on the Senate Finance Committee and get them to report out a bill before the August recess. That effort failed, and we were rewarded with the Tea Party spectacle that crippled momentum for reform, including a triggerless public option.
I bring his up because he had to work really, really hard to come up with this interpretation of events. The idea that the “trigger” was something that was only mentioned once by Rahm in a very narrow context of a July impasse is something you could only believe if you were a complete stranger to Mr. Google:
February January 2009 — Sam Stein of the Huffington Post: “[A] source close to the administration, who has been in contact with the White House on health care matters, said that Emanuel has been “floating” the trigger compromise since January.”
June 2 — Obama, Senate Dems Consider Public Health Care Option With A Trigger: “Multiple Democratic sources tell the Huffington Post that the White House and key members of the Finance and Health, Education, Labor and Pensions (HELP) Committees are in the process of hammering out key principles on health care reform — with a meeting scheduled at the West Wing this afternoon. One of the components will be music to progressive ears: that any bill includes an option publicly run health insurance coverage. But it also comes with a caveat that could engender opposition from that very same constituency [a trigger].”
July 7 — Wall Street Journal: “On Monday, Mr. Emanuel said the trigger mechanism would also accomplish the White House’s goals. Under this scenario, a public plan would kick in under certain circumstances when competition was judged to be lacking.”
September 2 — Marc Ambinder: “The White House hopes that, having voted for a public option, House Dems would accept a “trigger” as part of a conference committee compromise rather than putting the kibosh on the entire health care reform project. In some ways, this strategy is old, and in some ways it’s new. For months, White House chief of staff Rahm Emanuel has been pushing the idea of a “trigger” internally, and he and Snowe regularly trade legislative and political intelligence.”
September 9 — The President himself, in his speech before the joint session of Congress: “[S]ome have suggested that the public option go into effect only in those markets where insurance companies are not providing affordable policies [ed -- "Snowe" trigger plan]. Others propose a co-op or another non-profit entity to administer the plan. These are all constructive ideas worth exploring.”
September 22 — Bloomberg: White House Budget Director Peter Orszag “signaled the administration doesn’t consider a government-run insurance program essential to the legislation. He suggested it would be sufficient to either create nonprofit insurance-purchasing cooperatives or set “triggers” to activate a public option if needed to cut costs.
September 23 — Mike Lux, Open Left: “Some senior White House staffers are now beginning to try to sell this trigger to progressive groups as the compromise version of a public option, saying the White House doesn’t want to have a floor fight in the Senate, and that they can always fix it in conference committee.”
September 30 — Karen Tumulty, Time Magazine: “[T]he Obama White House has made no secret of its belief that the trigger could be the compromise on the public option that the President has been looking for.”
October 13 — Rahm Emanuel on PBS NewsHour: “[The President] believes strongly because of what it achieves in the sense of keeping the competition that insurance companies need, so the prices don’t continue to jump and out of control, that, if there are other ways to achieve that goal, as you know, Senator Snowe has the idea of a trigger, that, in case that price isn’t achieved or that competition isn’t achieved, there be a trigger that then the option, a public option, would come available.”
October 14 — NYT reports that “two senior administration officials” say the White House “looked favorably” on Olympia Snowe’s plan for a trigger. “[I]n private conversations with Ms. Snowe, Mr. Obama has brought up her idea for a trigger that would create a government-run plan in states where at least 5 percent of residents lacked access to affordable care. One senior White House official called the idea ‘very reasonable.’”
October 15: Bloomberg: “The Obama administration signaled a willingness to compromise on a proposed government-run health- insurance company by praising Senator Olympia Snowe’s plan to start the entity only if private insurers don’t meet targets … A senior administration official, who spoke on condition of anonymity, said that while President Barack Obama prefers the public option, Snowe’s trigger was a potentially good compromise if the Senate decides to pursue it.”
October 23 — Brian Beutler, TPM: “High level White House officials have floated the trigger trial balloon a number of times in the press, and it seems they continue to do so, even at this crucial stage of the health care reform process, when their involvement is greatest. That has senators who support the public option concerned.”
October 23 — CNN: “In recent days, two administration officials have told CNN that the prevailing White House opinion is for the Senate health care bill to include a so-called “trigger” mechanism proposed by Snowe that would bring a public option in the future if thresholds for expanding coverage and lowering costs go unmet in coming years.”
October 23: Mike Allen says “Administration officials have been telling POLITICO for weeks now that [a “trigger” option] is the most likely compromise?”
October 24 — Sam Stein and Ryan Grim, Huffington Post: “President Barack Obama is actively discouraging Senate Democrats in their effort to include a public insurance option with a state opt-out clause as part of health care reform. In its place, say multiple Democratic sources, Obama has indicated a preference for an alternative policy, favored by the insurance industry, which would see a public plan ‘triggered’ into effect in the future by a failure of the industry to meet certain benchmarks
A “trigger” is something that Rahm Emanuel has been fighting for all along. It defies all reason to believe that someone who has followed the health care debate could seriously pretends otherwise. Rahm is in charge of negotiating health care for the President, who has been (contrary to prevailing myths) intimately involved in the process of crafting the health care bill. From the NY Times in August (one of many such articles):
Mr. Obama and his top aides have immersed themselves in the Senate Finance Committee process. The president talks to Mr. Baucus several times a week, people briefed on their conversations say. Mr. Obama has also held a few calls with the panel’s ranking Republican, Senator Charles E. Grassley of Iowa.
Booman is right about one thing though — Rahm wouldn’t be doing this without Obama’s approval. Obama wants “triggers,” and has since Rahm started pushing them in January 0f 2009.
It’s time that people took off the rose colored glasses and faced the fact that Obama’s “leadership” on health care was empty and passive. He went for the corporate-friendly “win” that enriches the insurance and drug companies, just as he has enriched the banks and failed to hold them to account. Those who look first to others as scapegoats for his actions have apparently not come to grips with the fact that as President of the United States, he’s a very powerful man who is not using that power to advance the progressive agenda they attribute to him.




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Ok, I still think that Obama-Rahma merely preferred to get a bill, rather than no bill, and they saw triggers as the best way to accomplish that. The 10/15 Bloomberg quote you cite suggests that if Obama had 60 clones of himself in the Senate, he’d be pushing for single payer, but recognized the reality was far short of that and adjusted his expectations. Shortly after that, the WH started shopping the line that triggers could be made to be structured more progressively than the opt-out, which is theoretically true although is admittedly unlikely. So I don’t think you could say they “sold out” to the trigger, just that they saw it as the only option and tried to do what they could with it.
Now, the crucial thing that would make me wrong is if you, Jane, can suggest a better alternative that Obama could have realistically pursued. Namely, how could he have convinced Lieberman, Nelson, etc. to accept a public option? He simply couldn’t. Once you accept that, because he’s just President and not Superman, his willingness to explore alternatives becomes not only justifiable, but necessary.
The only clear path Obama could have pursued to get real reform was reconciliation, but that is of course fraught with numerous drawbacks. I think only a diehard ideologue would say Obama should have short-circuited this process months ago in favor of reconciliation.
It’s important to remember that just as Obama’s influence on Lieberman and Nelson is limited, so too is his influence on Sanders, Burris, etc. And he’s well aware of this. They along with many others will do their best to make sure that any compromise deal stands up for progressive ideas at least as much as it gives into moderate demands. Because Sanders, Nelson, Rahm, Obama, and every other Democrat knows that if this precarious compromise loses even a vote or two and there’s nothing left on the table, plan B is still reconciliation, and at that late date Obama will happily sign the bill and sell the necessity of reconciliation to America.
Obama forgets who put him into office. Elections have consequences and we were ready to reap them.
We voted for someone who took progressive stands. Now he is vying for the corporate dollars of the third way in health care, on Wall Street, ad nauseum.
More and better DEMs people. It.Ain’t.Barack.Obama
Once again it is the poor and middle class that will loose out on this current isurance give away plan. Nobody talks about how regressive the medicare tax is. If we were like any other civilized country healthcare would be provided by Federal Taxes and since federal taxes are based on progressive rates, it is less costly to the poor and middle class.
I am not supprised that Obama has been pushing bad policies. I actually looked at his voting record in the senate and voted for Nader instead, so I really don’t understand the frustration people have with Obama. He was pretty clear from the beginning that he was in bed with the corporations.
Jane for President!
The rethugs would love to watch these efforts go down in smoke In general they just do not give a damn about those without health care coverage…they had 8 years to show otherwise. They did not.
How about better candidates? The D party is too right-wing for me, and lending legitimacy to the rightward motion of both parties doesn’t strike me as a wise thing for a progressive to do. If you’re not willing to walk away, you’re not negotiating — you’re begging.
@Mikesong
I don’t know about Jane, but I think a better alternative would have been to take a risk, twist some arms, and fight for a robust public option from the outset, even if the administration knew the legislation would fail. There was nothing to suggest that the triggers route was the most realistic for passing legislation. Indeed, the triggers provoked extreme criticism from the very start because progressives were just waiting for those kinds of legislative sleights of hand to emerge. We all knew something like triggers were coming. The likelihood of health care legislation that actually provided Americans with affordable access to care was incredibly low from the outset, whether it was trigger legislation or robust public option legislation. So the administration should have simply bitten the bullet, advocated for the best legislation from the outset, and then if the legislation failed used the failure to continue the fight for progressive political legislation. If they’d done the right thing from the outset, they’d still be as popular as ever with voters regardless of the legislative outcome. The Republicans run on drilling in Alaska year after year after year and there’s no reason why Democrats can’t be just as tenacious when it comes to passing decent, humane health care legislation.
This was part of Obama’s backroom deals with the hospitals and PhRMA where he’d only go for a public option that was only good for PR but had no real teeth. If his dealings with the corporate lobbyists weren’t dirty, he would have televised them on C-SPAN.
“It’s all Joe’s fault” is only an excuse if Obama ever did anything to pressure him. And he didn’t. He saved his gavel on Homeland Security by calling Senators and advocating for him, but he’s never used his considerable influence with Connecticut voters or the bully pulpit to pressure Joe.
Unless you’re making the excuse that Obama is so weak that he’s incapable of that, and so we shouldn’t expect leadership out of him. But I don’t think that’s what you’re saying.
I was struck by something Dennis Kucinich said on the radio a couple of weeks ago. He was on, I believe, with Nicole Sandler and it was right after his single payer state option amendment was removed from the docket. Rep. K. very explicitly said that his amendment was removed and Stupak left in at the behest of the white house. I don’t know what Speaker Pelosi said to him but it makes sense that Rahm would have a potentially troublesome amendment removed (Kucinich’s) and to leave in the one (Stupak) that would be useful as leverage to split progressives or force them to trade something away to get rid of it. Rahm is one evil machiavellian S.O.B.
Jane, great research and tight argument. Obama does bear a lot of the blame for where we are today. Don’t forget though, that one of your “favorites,” Harry Reid, also deserves the blame. He needs a primary next year, as you’ve said many times before.
to answer the question: He’s only good to them as a Teflon puppet.
I do wish he had tried that, but he would have needed to do that in Nebraska, Arkansas, and Louisiana, at a minimum, all states he lost. What would happen if he went into these states and vociferously argued for a public option? He would have been just as likely to produce a backlash as to get support. At least it would have been very difficult for him to go 4 for 4. And if he failed, it would mean falling flat on his face and possibly led to a widespread notion that he’s divisive and can’t get things done.
Don’t get me wrong, I’m pissed he hasn’t found a way to make progress on this, but such is America in 2009. The only person I can think of who might have been able to pull this off is LBJ. At the least, I hope you’ll characterize Obama’s lack of leadership on the nitty gritty of health care as a close decision with a lot of merit to both courses. You could absolutely argue that he took the wrong course and played it too safe, but I don’t think you could argue that this was something he could have easily or even likely have accomplished, and simply gave in because he doesn’t even really share our values.
Put it another way: imagine if Hillary had won and made Rahm COS. Do you know how much unimaginably worse the bill would have been? So the overall influence Obama exerted has been positive, if maybe insufficient. If he can at least move the ball forward in a real way (big if right now), he can keep moving it forward for 7 more years.
When I’d first heard that Rahmbo was to be COS to Obama I was furious… I’m glad my gut instincts were right…! F@#K Rahmbo and the horse he rode in on…!!! 8-(
Just out of curiosity Mike, what part of the country do you live in? I’m wondering what it’s like in your community WRT the public option.
Do people support it or are they against it?
I believe most of the FDL community sees him as either a total tool of Corporatist Free Marketeers (profits before people), or a total jeliefied puddle of whimp. Personally I am certain the former applies.
Its all about Randy living in the East Bay Hills, getting paid under City and County of San Francisco auspices to take money from poor folks, pay them to absentee SRO landlords, run the SRO hotels at a profit, all while treating both poor folks in the hotels and his SEIU workforce disrespectfully, and then using those city contracts to subsidize an online “blog” that promotes Randy’s politics.
Veal Pen, total Veal Pen. Once Randy gets paid, there are no more problems.
From Randy’s personification of grassroots activist guru to Paul Hogarth’s incessant emotionalizing on same sex marriage, this model of activism is either an intentional act of sabotage to the progressive causes they claim to espouse or these people are really only competent at securing a meal ticket and have no competence in doing the kind of grassroots organizing that we do regularly during the heat of a campaign, but would interfere with the meal ticket if it were to continue on past election day.
The next time any of you all go off on Sarah Palin for being stupid, all the Obamaheads need to do is look into the mirror for a moment of humility at their own shortcomings and the damage that will do to young folks who have learned that if you organize, you will be deceived and screwed.
Another great post Jane.
Obama does own it. Just like he now owns Afghanistan. Just like he now owns indefinite detentions. Just like he now owns the stimulus, FISA, continue renditions, etc.
If he wanted single payer, and fought for that, I’d wager he would’ve gotten close (probably not quite making it in the Senate, but close). Certainly close enough that the corporatists would’ve then been begging for a real public option as the compromise (which is what it was supposed to be).
We’re where we are today because of Obama and the choices he’s made. So he does in fact own them. And I love how you’re making every effort to make sure the folks out here in the world now it.
Keep it up Jane. You’re teh awesome!
Just guessing that you’re unfamiliar with the concept of leadership.
and to think we have 3 more years of this BS!
And a hearty good evening to you too.
Dear Barry:
Yes, they have more money. But the employees and lobbyists of the Health Care, Defense and Banking Industries don’t employ enough people to elect your sorry ass to a second term.
Sincerely,
Not Voting in 2010, and Voting Third Party for 2012.
cool
;0
I think you’ll find the door you came in also leads out.
Have a great day.
Your argument makes some sense, but you neglect Obama’s powers, which (remember how it was a year ago) could have been applied much more strongly. He could have threatened Joe with losing his Chairmanship (as Jane points out), threatened Lincoln with losing Party support for her re-election campaign, and similarly put the screws on Baucus, Reid and the other “moderates”. These things have a cumulative effect. If the bandwagon had started moving, it would have swept the recalcitrant ones along. At the same time, he could have pushed much harder in speeches and press confs. for real reform, on both moral and economic grounds. This is big time stuff, as you are clearly aware, but the potential for public support for real reform is, consequently, that much greater. Sure, doing all that would have provoked a lots more opposition from PHARMA and the health insurance industry, but that’s what happens when you really try to change something.
Somehow, a polite response, snarky or not, seems to do the trick.
We’ve had a shift change for the trolls. Second shift is now on duty.
Heh, just read post, good one Mz. Hamsher.
The difference between Mz. Hamsher, and Rachel Meadows last night at Cohen?
TV.
Mz. Hamsher, way to kick ass.
I haven’t needed much help to come around to your points of view post elections, but your works on Eshoo really lit MY fire.
Not to mention the whole field of play the 1% controls, we’re up against.
But your Eshoo stuff really set me off . . . thanks! *G*
Is it a union made, organic, free trade door? Probably not, because the corporate fascist Obama didn’t impose a 3 billion dollar tariff on it.
Apparently.
Incidentally, anyone know who they are? Do they move from blog to blog? Are they being paid? Are they organized? Just curious.
The Oligarchs knew they needed a new-looking Democrat to sell the country on entitlement reform, in order to gut Social Security and Medicare. If you liked this health care fight, you’ll love Obama’s 2011 triangulation against old people.
My partial summary of the entire health care sham:
Thank You, New Majority
My heavens, real.
Interesting. Suggests that they are just looking to rile us, and give up when we don’t respond that way. Kind of like kids holding their breath to get a rise from their parents.
Maybe not a “retard” or a tebagger, but someone tired of being used. How about this – why vote out self interest when there is nothing to be gained or lost from either outcome. One outcome is distasteful to you because its brand is distasteful to you. the other outcome represents a brand you feel good about but the results are the same either way. the wars go on, and the coporate “galt” class gets everything it demands, while the rest of us get whatever comes down. thats not “change” i can believe in. There are other more honorable courses of action.
I see that you are adept at the talking points. Having proved that, would you care to engage in dialogue?
obviously an insurance company ( and or ) banking industry executive. no one else stands to gain anything from this shitty bill. rahm is that you??
When it comes to health care reform, the Good has lots of enemies: the Bad, the Corrupt, the Inept, the Incompetent, the Ineffective, and the Evil.
There are other courses but I always come back to one thing – the Supreme Court. If we get any more conservatives, we are toast.
MikeyBoy, yer now starting to break down in yer defense of the obvious.
Yer losing me hoss . . . Obama is part and parcel/partial to all we see being done.
He’s not been hustled by Congressional Politics, Protocol, or any else but the corps.
I gotta call you out at this point and politely suggest they are all bought and paid for, and the only means of changing any of it is to struggle, try and vote in more and more progs, and hope like hell we all don’t go to hell in the handbasket of the 1% before it’s all over.
On the other hand, without meaningful HCR, without jobs (recent shit ain’t enuff) and such, shit’s gonna get so bad SOME kind of change will be forced on the whole mess.
And it’s not likely to be pleasant for anyone.
I wanna like your positions Mikey, but they are slipping daily . . . and it don’t make happy to see it.
We’re all fucked as it goes, as it stands.
To date, this is NOT progressive change, in any form.
And Obama has had his places, chances, and opportunities, where he coulda drawn the lines.
And then, he made Rahm his COS. First clue, biggest clue, worst clue.
Sigh. I grieve for us all, Mike.
Shame on you. Holding my breath is my favorite metaphor for futility. Don’t you dare use it in vain to describe a wingnut ever again. *g*
What’s with Sarah in that ridiculous green hat?
I guess actual insurance reform and coverage for 30 million extra people is just fucking peanuts. You’re right, let’s tank this shit and then let the Republicans take the House in 2010. Good idea.
i disagree. they cant, for instance overturn Roe V Wade. I just cant forsee that happening without a massive shit storm. they wont try, if they were going to try they would have. what else could they do to us they havent already done?
Aloha, Larue…! We’re having a party at the Beach Haus…! ;-)
Oh, but I was dead serious :-)
Congressman Kucinich: Is This the Best We Can Do?
“Is this the best we can do? Forcing people to buy private health insurance, guaranteeing at least $50 billion in new business for the insurance companies?
“Is this the best we can do? Government negotiates rates which will drive up insurance costs, but the government won’t negotiate with the pharmaceutical companies which will drive up pharmaceutical costs.
“Is this the best we can do? Only 3% of Americans will go to a new public plan, while currently 33% of Americans are either uninsured or underinsured?
“Is this the best we can do? Eliminating the state single payer option, while forcing most people to buy private insurance.
“If this is the best we can do, then our best isn’t good enough and we have to ask some hard questions about our political system: such as Health Care or Insurance Care? Government of the people or a government of the corporations.”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i9XEtUPijfU
http://seaclearly.wordpress.com/2009/10/29/health-care-sham-is-this-the-best-we-can-do
You have a good point but I think they are already chopping off bits of Roe.
Your theory as to what occurred seems plausible to me.
I think he got about all he could, given the votes available.
Hints on the senate proposal.
“what else could they do to us they havent already done?”
Apparently force us to purchase goods and services from whatever industry is successful at lobbying/purchasing/owning Congress and the White House. Today it’s the insurance industry. Tomorrow the beef industry? Who knows, but most folks seem to believe (and they’re probably right) that the SCOTUS will approve forcing people to purchase goods/services from private entities. I don’t see how that’s constitutional, but I couldn’t see how spying on American citizens without warrants was constitutional either, so what do I know?
You miss the point. Had he tried harder, there would have been more votes. These things aren’t written in stone.
I live in LA – Waxman’s district, so we’re about as liberal as it comes. You could probably win a referendum on single payer here. Maybe living in such a progressive place makes me view much of the country as hopelessly behind the times, so I cut Obama too much slack. But I moved here from Nashville, where you can’t walk a few blocks without tripping over a hospital or a major health insurance headquarters, and I saw how people there were quite comfortable with segregating people with darker skin or lesser means into neighborhoods where it was tough to find fruits and vegetables, much less a doctor. It’s a schizophrenic country, and difficult for anyone to lead.
Think about this; if Rahm was floating triggers and that was publicly noticed by Sam Stein in FEBRUARY, which is mere days into the administration, the actual deal and tactics were probably decided much earlier, and probably before Inaguration.
Look at all the people on the transition team, not just the headliners.
I have no evidence, only a gut instinct, that just as with the FISA flip-flop, the money started working deals with this administration as it became clearer and clearer Obama’d win.
Triggers probably got dreamed up in November/December last year as well as the appointments being set to cut the PHRMA deal.
Oh no, he’s a running dog lackey of the corporate oligarchy.
Obama should have gone around the country speaking about health care and telling the whole story about what needed to be done. He should have worked the Congress hard to get them to see the value of doing what was right. He hardly mentioned health care until the last month. He is getting what he wanted, sadly.
I’ve been arguing against mandates from the getgo. For whatever good that does.
Oh yea, he was on the stump day in and day out inculcating the public with dreams of the possible, the audacity to hope for a fucking basic right to be treated with dignity.
Sorry, I saw no Obama no where.
Are there mandates still in the bill? Of course, the CBO still has to weigh in on the costs. Without cost controls, I don’t see how anything changes, except more profits for insurance companies.
The only upside I see from here is that a group of people who may have been dumped (as I was) from insurance plans gets coverage and perhaps has better health care outcomes from earlier care than they would have otherwise.
The fury I have is that this is all such a terrible giveaway to insurance companies, particularly if they still try to force everyone to buy insurance. Further, I really hate that women have been dumped on in this process, the Stupak amendment given the green light. A-holes.
they are “chopping off little bits” of all of our civil liberties. clearly, voting for the democrat “who can win” isnt slowing that down at all.
Stop making sense. :)
seems like a case of over compensation.
Stay strong, Larue…I think you’re being too cynical, which I definitely don’t think is Obama’s problem. An overabundance of caution, absolutely, and he might lose this one guy’s vote because of it. I’m not there yet, but close. If fewer than 10 million people get real help from this bill, if more than 10 percent are unemployed in 6 months, if the Afghan withdrawal is too slow, any of that, and I’m out. But I’m not giving up because he fudged on FISA or something…
Chopping off little bits of our civil liberties? Surely you jest. Millions of us are being tracked by the govt via our cell phone chips. There is no such thing as civil liberties in the U.S. anymore.
KO has thrown in the towel too! Oh no!
Anyone who thinks that abortion is the only issue that fucks us with a worse Supreme Court is not paying attention.
Anybody heard from dangerstein lately? Been so quiet.
I recall a blog by Krugman after his dinner at the White House, a bit less than a year ago. The topic was what to do about the financial meltdown. What struck me most was his comment that Obama seemed to understand the situation perfectly, but also seemed extremely cautious about how to address it. So maybe that’s what we’ve got–a very intelligent and informed, fantastic orator, but overly cautious POTUS.
a great concert movie! although i am much more partial to early 70′s acid metal
the $900 billion max price tag was purposefully set to remove the option of a strong public option as the white house knew what was and was not possible for $900 billion … is anyone surprised that what is coming out of the senate exactly what rahm wanted to come out when he started strategizing? the public option debate merely delayed the implementation of the obama/rham health care bill
there “are”
That those 30 million are going to be forced to pay the insurance companies to obtain. Look at the whole bill – who is better off? The insurance companies by a huge amount! They are already celebrating their victory while the Repukes are bragging about defeating reform. Both parties are wholly owned subsidiaries of the Corporations. The only slim chance we have it that Corporations can’t vote – yet…once the Supreme Court tips I can see that being changed.
Wiener likes it. . .oh no!
He handed me tacos and a shake at Jack-in-the-Box just last night!
Krugman is dazzled by shiney objects. A year ago, in a book salon here, he defended O’s economics team because Bernanke hired him at Princeton and Krugman had been in meetings with Summers and Geithner & thought they were solid citizens (against the strong pushback from me, selise & Hugh). ANAIKT, Krugman is weak tea.
A better explanation might be they started counting votes for the public option the day after inauguration and realized they came up short. I know it’s incredibly frustrating to get 56 votes and say you came up too short, but that doesn’t mean it’s not true. It’s possible that the only people that could have gotten those 4 votes were God, Superman, and LBJ – and clearly Obama’s not in that echelon.
Yeah, that was a wake.
Correction duly noted.
I think you nailed it.
No shit the corporations own both parties, but at least we have a voice in the Democratic Party. The Democratic Party is great for corporate America and in many ways the American people. The Republican Party is great for corporate America and terrible for the American people.
Yep and the lizard brain is winning out.
However I think liberal/progressives have lost out by feeling or being helpless to meet the tea bag types at their level. I am not saying behave that way but cultivate empathy. Too many of us, and I include myself, are really too elitist and have viewed them as just behind the times and not sufficiently credible to really influence our wise elected officials. Obama has this proclivity to expect to be believed because some group of experts agree with him. We too often limit our efforts to make change by manipulating the levers of power. But while we weren’t looking the Lizard brains became the levers of power. Go figure.
*g*
Dude, did you even glance at the post? He didn’t even try… in fact, quite the opposite.
Counting votes early in the game and coming up “short” is a recipe for failure. I used to think there was such a thing as leadership (see LBJ) and whipping, but apparently, since 1950, all elected Ds have been born without spines.
I am glad that the penny has finally dropped for Jane Hamsher regarding obama and health care … over the last months, hamsher criticizing the white house (rahm) without criticizing obama was getting annoying – it was as if she was playing a little game of protect the president while advocating a position that she knew the president was firmly against…happy that has finally come to an end
obama sucks. simple as that. he is not chief executive material sadly
Krugman is the unofficial Eminence grise.
Stieglitz is the Earl Gray.
ANAIKT? Haven’t seen that one. Anyway, maybe he is weak tea in some ways, but those remarks on Obama get pretty close to what’s going on, IMO. Where was the book salon, incidentally?
” . . . 30 years in the movie business . . ”
Somehow, someway, folks gloss over what that really means about analysis, development and getting what you want.
The glossing over now has become of great interest to me, as it rears its wierd and many pointed heads AT you and your blog and your positions on issues.
Mz. Hamsher, yer a delight to read . . . and thanks for all you do.
I have some questions about other topics, but I’d prefer not to mention them in here . .
Where can I send you some questions I have on other issues for your consideration?
you got it. But I’d postulate that 2 factors are at least as important in Obama’s over-cautiousness as his basic makeup:
#1, he’s in the first year of his first term
#2, he’s in the first year of what he hopes will be another 40 year long era molded in his image
These would suggest his caution is strategic, temporary, and will not in the end be reflected in his legacy.
To PeterK @52 and Twain @56
I think the best story I ever heard about LBJ is that he used to make people accompany him to the bathroom when he had to take a shit, make them stand there and watch him. I guess he knew how to twist him some arms. He fucked himself with Vietnam.
Yea, well he fucked me with it too! Fucker wore a silver star on his lapel that was total bullshit,
I gotta give it to ya, you really hang in there.
Were that the least of my mistakes. *g*
What a crock of excrement…no public option?…no point in voting for spineless Dems……problem is I will NEVER vote for a Rethuglican either…..time to move to Canada?
Nice.
Is there anything, say: a push on his part to privatize Public Education, or his lack of involvement in pushing through a return to Glass-Steagal that would make you turn sour on Obama?
Dream on. If he ain’t pushing now, it’ll never come. In fact, even now is probably too late. He should have hit the ground running, while he had some headway and momentum. It won’t come back, unfortunately.
It’s funny how he can still capture your hopes after all this fizzling out–and not just on health care. Try to look at what he is, not what you would like him to be.
No I’m not completely without hope. He does respond to pressure, to an extent. So there is some leverage, and that’s what people like Jane are trying to exert.
Here, about a year ago. I’ll find the link and post it.
Wrong. The conservative movement had not poisoned D.C. during LBJ’s time. Conservatives govern to actively fuck up things to put distrust of government into the American people’s psyche, thus government involvement in helping people is always viewed with suspicion and downright contempt. We have to keep winning elections and build trust with the American people to overcome years of the conservative wrecking crew that has fucked this country up so badly. This thing is going to take time. Obama can’t magically cure America in a year and maybe not even 8 years, but we have to keep fighting and regain the trust of the America people if we are ever going to be able to start using the government to build America into what the people deserve and need.
Canada is getting as bad as we are with their conservatives. Hope they can stop it before it spreads.
If you think that’s pretty, your standards are pretty low …
Thanks
That’s the best LBJ story you heard? I guess you didn’t hear about his proclivity to put all of himself out there, so to speak.
Here’s the link.
Who the fuck is Randy?
Hauling TV out of the closet. Can someone tell me what time Maddow’s show is on the air (CST)? MSNBC, right?
who the fuck is marcos?
It’s 9 ET, so I guess 8PM?
yes, 8pm
“The most you can say about Lyndon Johnson and his Silver Star is that it is surely one of the most undeserved Silver Stars in history, because if you accept everything that he said, he was still in action for no more than 13 minutes and only as an observer. Men who flew many missions, brave men, never got a Silver Star.”[14]
Thanks, both of you.
Soooo is it time to stop supporting the dear leader yet? Or do we just swallow this bcz after all Obama is better than Bush or Palin. The dems have forgotten what being a minority party is like, it is time for them to be reminded. Even though it means republican rule for the next couple of years we have to let the dems lose elections if they refuse to honor their committments to us. My money is on progressives forgetting this slap in the face and backing the dems and Obama with all they have in 2010 and 2012.
Playing along for no particular reason:
If you are correct, then why take on Health Care in the first 6 months of his first year at all? Why even in his first term? He will probably get a bill, and it will be crippled, a big wet kiss to Pharma and insurance companies, and of little if any value to the ‘buying public?’
Why not wait until be builds up his steel, so he can take on the single biggest constituent concern now and for the next 40 years, instead of burying it for another 10, 15, 20 years?
We are unlikely to get another shot at HC for the duration of his term, and even then, it will likely be nibbling around the edges.
This IS his legacy. He fucked up the stim and the banks, he fucked up Afghanistan, he is fucking HC. What exactly could he do in the next 7 years to overcome this calamitous fail?
That ignores the history of Reagan. At this point in his presidency, people thought he was a total failure and he had bad polls. Don’t get me wrong, I think he was a total failure and didn’t accomplish anything. But in the end, he did accomplish making politicians of both parties for the next 30 years (Clinton: “the era of big gov’t is over”) bow down to his vision of the status quo as our country circled the drain. I wish 2009 had gone better, but what I care most about is that the next 3 or 4 decades will go better.
When LBJ did his heralded arm twisting to pass Medicare he was working with 68 Democratic Senators and a handful of Mugwump Republican Senators.
I think simple math has more to do with it than spine.
R.T.F.A. Shaw comes out against Obama because Shaw isn’t getting paid by Obama.
*G*
Headed that way myself, in a matter of words . . .
;-)
I”m still catchin up, you got me hoss . . *G*
You liked Clinton’s “the era of big gov’t is over” ?
Who are you
doop doop
doop doo
I really want to know. . . :)
Dude’s got a point!!!!
WHAT!?
Give it at least a few comments, dude . . . *G*
As Alan Grayson is wont to say, you can’t get elected as a D if you vote R. Perhaps the only D pols you are familiar with are those without spines so you can’t imagine that they might be anotomically different.
To be honest, it probably isn’t about spines at all, but rather about the fact the Clinton figured out the mother lode was with corps, and the rest is history.
Actually, I’ve got to defend Krugman a bit more. He’s practically the only one in the MSM who, for years, stood up against Bush, on all sorts of issues. He’s been criticizing Obama for months on making the stimulus too small and not doing enough about unemployment. “Weak tea” is a bit over the top, IMO.
They is more engaging!!!!
Can’t we play with them a bit more before we have to go to sleep?
*G*
To the moderator:
Have you really got good cause for doing what you’re doing? How about on merits instead of hear say?
Well, we’ll never know, since O has no spine.
Added on edit: Not to mention that those 68 Ds included a lot of racists and anti-poverty folks.
Fuck this “cautious” bullshit. He’s a coward. Afraid to fight for the people who put him in office. Afraid to fight the moneyed interests he desperately needs.
Like Bob Herbert wrote on Afghanistan: he takes the easy way out. He doesn’t have the courage to fight for what’s right if there’s any chance of losing. Cautious, my ass. Change you can believe in, my ass.
When people are dying, it’s fucking immoral to be “cautious.”
there’s this process called “reconciliation” available in the Senate that needs only 50 + Biden, and it can’t be filibustered. This is all a smoke and mirrors game to keep the ‘Bama-bots happy. it seems to be working on you. he has already chosen the corps over the people.
Yup.. Clinton has 100,000,000.00 in the bank… a billion dollar library.. and his health care slogan is “Pass anything and call it victory”
and you are heroically doing what?
My post @24 was in response to another’s post that has since been removed (by the mods I suppose, considering it’s content). And now I guess I can’t edit.
Hope it didn’t offend anyone. But the post it was responding to was pretty bad, IMO. (which I guess is why it was removed).
Yer so good and spot on at times it frightens me more than Norske does . .
And srsly, I believe you are dead on as to what we are up against, one and all.
Bless you for saying it out loud Teddy . . .
yeah, but it was 54 to 45 when he was twisting arms to get to the final number.
Obama is not a stupid man that much we know. He is also a deeply flawed person because he is smart enough to know that what he has brought about will hurt the vast amajority of the country while allowing a few to reap great rewards. And knowing the damage he is causing he plunges right in.
He may rationalize all this and say, this is all I could do. And he will lie to himself and to the country, but this only shows how deeply flawed this guy is.
No one can read his mind and we don’t need to in order to know that he now finds himself enamored with monied interests. If he ever intended to serve the country at large succuming this easily to the service of the elite shows the true nature of the man. A weakling with no principles with an enormous capacity to lie to himself and others.
George Bush never wavered in promoting his circle of priviledged friends, he was probably brought up that way. You could see he had no qualms about it. You were more afraid of what he was capable of doing, than wondering about his ultimate loyalties.
With Obama what he inspires is disgust. He is not what he passes himself off to be. His loyalties are not what he claims. With him all you know is that he can’t be trusted.
For that reason, we should not spend too much time trying to influence this guy, but rather assume always the worst from him. We should just go about plotting our course with all the energy we can muster. The less we worry about Obama the better.
I’m sure at least one will be around shortly. Play away!
Well, it could look like this: decent HCR, uses TARP for small business and infrastructure jobs, builds up Dem brand to hold up surprisingly well in 2010, get out of Guantanomo, get EFCA, start the Afghan withdrawal, get re-elected in a landslide with huge coattails, finish Afghan withdrawal, institute public option, further Dem brand-strengthening, further election victories, etc…
Contrast that to: push for public option to start with and fail miserably a la 1994, begin immediate unconditional Afghan withdrawal, get creamed in 2010, hello Pres. Petraeus, goodbye new Liberal Era.
Why? He said it all!
Nuff said!
Now let’s get it done!
Let’s start the change, ourselves.
Now.
America, the nuclear failed state.
Howdy, ES…! Do you have the LLN honors tonite…?
Oh blah. Anyone with 2 brain cells knew the stim was too small. Didn’t need a Nobel to figure that out. Krugman deserves a bit of credit for daring to speak a small amount of truth.
Did you watch his Nobel lecture? Nothing more boring and obvious, with so little insight. Displayed a map of the U.S. during industrialization and said the rest was history.
I agree totally. I want single payer, but I know that there is too much money involved to get that through Congress, so I will accept the reforms that we have eyed up right now. We have to at least get this done right now and then keep going back later and later until one day we can have a single payer system. I’m cool with opening up Medicare to those 55 to 64, that’s a step in the right direction.
50 footers on the North Shore huh?
Hi CT, I do indeed…)
you are such a pill. . . but we loves ya!
Whoa, whoa, whoa.
SHOW me 30 million more covered?
And at what price?
Mandated?
What about the rest, not covered, or overpriced?
Sigh, and I had SUCH great hopes for you as a newbie.
Damn.
ding ding. and that was at the end of a 34 year long era (1932-1966) of building up the Democratic brand. and then he went ahead and gave rights to those dark people who built our country. cue 40 year backlash (1966-2006). cue new project to build up the Democratic brand and the math, so that sometime in the next 3 or 4 decades, we can really fix most of our country’s immense problems.
Pass anything and call it victory is a page out of W’s playbook and what the O email today was all about. Gag. Spit.
Do you look at the time stamp on these posts you reply to? I mean that cat is long gone.
It’s easy to be Grayson when you don’t have a challenger in 2010.
As I already said above, Obama is holding reconciliation in his back pocket if every single Democrat won’t sing kumbaya, which has always been likely and despite recent news remains as likely as ever.
” It shld be obvious to even the most dense self styled progressives that Obama was never worth a damn”. http://www.blackagendareport.com/?q=content/will-last-%E2%80%9Cprogressive-obama%E2%80%9D-please-turn-out-lights
Bullshit. Reconciliation would not get much through. Compromising and getting to 60 votes will get us more than anything that reconciliation could get us.
WHAT?!?!?!?
It was closed last I heard . . no one tells me nuttin no more, and I do all the danged GOOD cooking over there, too.
‘Kin intreats . . . *G*
Mixed drinks or just shooters? *G*
MAHALO hoss! How about Tuesday’s swells and the Eddie A Tourney?
Saw pics, not big waves, some 40+ . . . not Maverick’s!!!
North Shore of Oahu… But, I was enjoying some serious waves pounding Hilo’s breakwater… It did shut down our Bayfront Highway…! Impressive to say the least…! ;-)
”;[;.[
i already know fuckno’s MO and have no time for it, but how many other people actually took from my statement that I was in favor of Clinton and his Reagan-lite-ism? I just wanted to make sure that my language was clear and it’s just fuckno’s normal idiocy.
Maui was crankin too.
Well damn, it’s back!
Unless the CBO is lying, they said it. Price about 900 billion. What about the rest? I don’t know? Most are here illegally. So do immigration reform to get them legalized to get us close to near universal coverage.
This is what pisses me off. I want everyone to get health insurance coverage. How we get there doesn’t matter to me as much as actually getting to that point. The current reforms are far from perfect, but better than what we have now.
We are facing huge threats to Roe v Wade, Kansas v. Board of Ed, and more.
My soul and my last breath will be in defense of those two, and more.
And my honey, bless her Canistuckian Soul, is with me all the way.
Yes, there were, but counterbalancing them were the Mugwump Republicans.
Medicare passed the Senate 70-24.
The Mugwumps are now extinct.
Obama is the second incarnation of Clinton’s unfinished business, – fair question, no need for…
Amazingly enough, I couldn’t be the slightest bit influenced by what people think about me.
Which is it mikesong? Obama doesn’t run Congress, he’s only the President, or Obama will use Reconciliation?
You can’t have it both ways.
Hey, CT.
I haven’t got a clue as to whether Grayson has a challenger. From the little I know, he’s in a close district, but I could be wrong.
Blah, blah, blah..
What are you gonna do now?
Are you going to call on the progressive caucus, Bernie Sanders et. al. to kill the bill or not?
Are you afraid to call for the bills death because you don’t believe caucus will come through?
compromising with who?? the R’s are never gone vote for anything remotely progressive. this is D’s screwing us, not R’s, and he never did anything to point that out or try to bag the corporate dems and squeeze them.
Good point.
We’re focusing on the Democratic turncoats but what are we doing to melt the Red State iceberg, which gives these assholes their power?
Let’s be honest here. How many FireDogLakers and other progressive blog readers and writers just love to watch Keith and Rachel, especially when they make fun of the loons from the Red States? How has that worked out? Aren’t we just balming our wounds at being unable to crack this iceberg?
Don’t we STILL need to be thinking about CONVINCING these people? Is there really not a single Red-State Republican we can force to play defense over his health care stance? Wouldn’t we rather BEAT Michelle Bachmann than get our jollies over her latest outrage?
And if LBJ had played it like O is playing it, then what?
yea yea
I think I know what you’re talking about. I’m a progressive, but I’m not getting all pissed about the current health debate. I’m in this for the long haul. Progressives need to stick with the Democratic Party and push it in the right (left) direction. We need to build and strengthen the coalition of blacks, thinking white people, Hispanics, and basically every other minority group. I will accept some setbacks and triangulation as long as we keep the right-wing out of power. That’s my philosophy and watching progressives bitch about Obama and Rahm is getting annoying and is actually just a waste of time.
We would have never had the Vietnam GI Bill!
Huh?
Compromising within in our own caucus. In case you have not noticed, the Democratic Party is a big tent party. Maybe we can go it alone and pick up a whopping 20% of the vote. That will get us a whole hell of a lot accomplished.
pulezze
Aloha, SD…! I’m headed out now on some errands for my better half, since it’s her B-Day today… I’ll be around for some LLN action later…! ;-)
We did beat them.. In case you haven’t noticed the PO polls very well in many a conservative place. WHich says a lot since I never heard the term PO prior to this year.
But we can only do so much with Charlie Obama Brown And Rahm Lucy Emmanuel playing football.
There was a ton of resistance to the “Servicemen’s Readjustment Act” in 65.
mikesong, oldgold, and a few others…your efforts are very much appreciated. There have been some studies here and other places that show somewhere around 1% of the readers actually leave comments, so I gotta think your sound reasoning of some alternative viewpoints, around here at least, is having some influence on many people.
Keeping Liberals motivated and active will be important for future battles, and you’re helping in that regard.
I called my two Senators this AM, and emailed them this PM and urged them to do just that. Kill the bill.
I really believe that the insurance companies like this so much that if in fact one, two, or three Democrats to break ranks, there will suddenly appear one, two, or three Republicans to take their place. The Republicans like to feed their base by opposing everything Obama, but they also know that this a bill their corporate friends in the insurance industry love. So they’ll throw out one or two or three as needed to ensure it passes. Would love to see Fiengold and Saunders stand up and disavow this bill. Would love it. And then we’d see if, in fact, the R’s would provide a couple to ensure it’s passage.
Great response. Really shows some thinking. Go have another one.
The PO was the compromise.
That’s exactly my point.
The PO polls very well in many conservative areas. So why not get involved in one of them and actually beat a Republican? Who knows, it might even start a trend?
You must be new here.. though I recognize your name from open left country.
Oh gee, you didn’t like it huh? Let’s see, I’m thinking you’re silly. How ya like me now? Oh, instead of laughing at you I should give a shit and try to change your mind right?
I’ve been around for awhile. Don’t come here that much. But an interesting place to be today, even though I’m in the clear minority.
I wouldn’t say interesting. I would say different.
Challenging folks with a progressive candidate is what FDL/Blue America does… we have for years.
If you plan on sticking around, buy your Tylenol in bulk.
Economic conditions do not hew to party conformity, so yes, there are people in the Red States who while parting ways with progressives on social issues could be finally swayed to vote their financial interests. So, talking to them instead of talking down at them offers a valid tactical approach,
Sometimes I have to take a tylenol before I comment. Preemtively.
And it’s challenge everybody and anybody, doesn’t matter if there’s an R or D behind the name.
Institutions must be constantly challenged to remain even remotely responsive. That includes the entire veal pen.
Anymore, aside from individual candidate donations through BlueAmerica, the only institution which is worthy of donations is ACLU imo. They’ve been steadfast for years and years and years.
That’s a great line, but fails in reality. Unless you can get to 60 in the Senate and 218 in the House, anything is up for compromise. It doesn’t matter if the “public option was the compromise.” If it can’t pass with enough votes, then you have to keep compromising or get nothing. I’m not settling for nothing just because some rigid ideologues want to go die on a hill for something that would have only covered 4 million people at most. I’m willing to compromise if we can actually preserve Medicare, Medicaid, regulate private insurance and cover another 30 million uninsured.
He played it the same way. He passed on universal health care and took what was possible: eldercare.
Roosevelt, with huge majorities, did the same thing with the 74th and 75th Congresses. In the 75th Congress Democrats controlled 79 out of 96 Senate seats.
So, why don’t you run over there and get busy?
There are some of us here in my part of Georgia who do try. I do lots of letters to the ed, trying to be respectful etc. And there are some community columnists writing for local news papers. It is an uphill battle. And frankly elitism and trying to prove our points through quoting experts and intellectualism causes many to stop listening immediately.
It’s that way in Athens and you would think, at least here, it would be different.
I plan on sticking around and getting up in their faces about their childish behaviors.
Maybe having McCain and Palin running the show would have gotten us a robust public option.
/sarcasm
Wiener is coming up on Rachel to explain why he is encouraged by the bill. Better get ready so you can skewer him too!
I agree. In the south you never talk down to people but they are even more insulted by talking “up.” They think you’re a snob.
Yes, I know. And I’ve donated to the cause, passed emails to friends, etc.
I’m just saying that I see more bitching and moaning about Obrahma, and hollow threats at Reid and Pelosi the past few days than I’d like. (Credible threats, different story) Probably shouldn’t expect any different, as many here (although not the principals) seem actually surprised by these developments.
But I mean to seriously raise the issue: why NOT combine primarying the Lincolns with actually trying to field a credible opponent for the Bachmanns as a strategic focus?
Clearly Wiener is a corporate Democrat who loves watching women be denied care because they were asking for it one night by wearing a short skirt.
Yea, why doesn’t everyone get on a bus and come convince these goobers in NE Georgia that Paul Braun isn’t good for them?
Very good point and proof that we should not despair of getting our message and sincerity of motive out to folks.
As to RhamObama, they stubbornly held to the bonehead idea of placating the corporates and the Red Menace paranoia. Whether they failed to notice the will of the people or chose to go with an ideology we did not expect them to follow when we elected Obama I don’t know.. I do still believe he will pay a political price.for going against the wishes of most voters.
Hell I go to the Athens Banner for my liberal reading. (grins) That’s how bad it is in Dawson..
We will have a trifecta. Three people championed here for months for their sagacity concerning HCR have been dropped like bad habits today: Dean, Krugman and Wiener.
I think it’s a “division of labor” issue. The DNC will try and counter Bachmann already. It’s up to issue groups/blogs to move the Overton window left where possible with less resources available to them.
So Jane won’t piss on some DNC/DLC/DCCC effort to unseat Bachmann. Far fro it, she’d applaud it I’m sure. She will push hard on primarying some safe left seat so the incumbent either becomes responsive, or is replaced.
That’s how we get the “better” out of the “More and better” democrats equation. I don’t see it a swhining or griping at all; just sound strategy from my perch.
That would be the first incarnation, just thought I’d add. Sorry.
I’ve never had much luck trying to convince them of anything. I am careful to only talk about what I think and let them reach their own conclusions. Stubborn people.
Interesting the relationship with Olympia Snowe. She must be the most effective agent since Rose O’Neal Greenhow. Mitch McConnell has eyes and ears in every negotiation.
(if you’re still on board): Lovely idea, but I don’t buy it (wish I did, but it doesn’t parse). If he were really planning that, he’d be laying all kinds of groundwork. Not happening.
I figure that the first incarnation was 43.
OMG, I go there daily. I have known some of the posters for 25+ years!
Well I am sure Joe Lieberman and Evan Bayh will accept your campaign contribution. You’ve got their talking points down..they should give you a free t-shirt.
You, like the President, have placed your faith in the same miscreants who nurtured global financial catastrophe, to rescue fiscal and monetary policy, behind a screen of secrecy and accountable to exactly who they wish to be accountable to – no one. We are left, because of some misty reference to bi-partisanship, with banksters not only surviving but thriving, a stimulus composed of 42% ineffectual tax cuts and… too small by half.
And while Guantanamo is important, it pales in comparison to the messes in Afghanistan and Pakistan, where the President has not just continued the Cheney-esque policies of the last two terms, but actually accelerated them.
Instead of going on with a list of why’s…
The landslide you dream of is just what the doctor ordered for a President who outright betrays his Left-flank on not just one or two things, but across the board. But it will not happen – Lilly Ledbetter, S-Chip and Cash-for-Clunkers can not save him.
You mean exactly what President Barack Hussein Obama did to get elected? To my surprise, I just had another long-time Repub friend tell me he voted for Obama. I think it’s up to 10 now the number of times this has happened to me since Nov 2008.
Another one told me he’s planning to switch to the Dem Party now because he likes how Obama is actually trying to bring Americans together, or the world for that matter. Knowing this guy as long as I have, I just about choked on my arugula!
This bodes well for future elections. Now if we can just keep Liberals motivated.
Try the Flagpole online too.
Not in any front page posts, only by some commenters.
And the senate bill is not 100% known, so Krugman, Dean and Weiner are just talking about ideas they like, not totally supporting it ’cause they don’t know what’s init either.
Why other people/commenters overreact is on they themselves.
The answer is that Obama is on the same basic side as 56 Senators with the same strategy. They’re on board for reconciliation, but that process will limit what they can do on policy, not to mention being a little risky politically and very damaging to future unity in the Democratic caucus. Getting 60 votes seems much more attractive, but it may mean limiting the policy too much and prove too difficult to swallow or get all the votes for. So they’ll see what the CBO says, weigh their options, and then proceed.
say what?
Nicely understated, Jane. I imagine it took a lot of work to remain that calm.
Mr. Obama wanted this outcome or something worse for the American public, whose leader he was desperate to become. He is not an agent of constructive change that furthers the interests of the American public. He is a Villager, full stop.
What is it about a blog where “bonkers” replies to “fuckno”? Surely there is some poetic justice here
:-)
so which “democrats” are on the 2012 primary/dump list?
You’d have a lot shorter list of the one’s that should be kept. . .no?
My question to you is binary, not mushy.
Does Obama have power over Congress, and can influence them, or not?
Thank you Mr Cheney
hehe! Kind of lose sight of that sometimes.
Hey man I support Triggers for health Care if the Trigger is based on..
If In two years after enactment more than 15 million remain without affordable (5% of net income)Health Care coverage then the Public Option Kicks in:
Open to All citizens and legal immigrants:
Complete Comprehensive Health Care using the VA model where the VA Does get to negotiate vendor pricing…
Payments set at 5% of net income…
Enough of this stupid political argument over who gets to have medical care and who doesn’t .. this is fucking shameful of all of us to allow this… do something … anything just DO! Even if it is just forwarding emails to all your address lists… It effects Everyone in this Country!!..
you figure those are the same do you?
I hardly mean the same. Rather, that I am just as offended by Trillions going to Banksters with no strings attached as are they. When they loose their job because boss is not making sufficient profits; ask them why they don’t take over the factory. There will be a growing number of convergent issues that would allow us to augment a popular anti corporatist movement.
It’s a thought, no?
I don’t see front page posts that dump on Dean, Krugman or Weiner.
I only see that some commenters have not liked their “alleged” support of the current state of play of the Senate bill, and it’s not fully baked yet.
And I don’t understand why some people over react.
Something wrong with that observation?
Indeed they did.
Going back to just 2006, here are some folks who put their money where their mouths were in investing in Obama:
Law Firms $45,518,596
Misc Business $16,668,854
Securities & Investment [finance/banks] $15,983,457
Health Professionals $12,093,433
Business Services $12,008,416
Real Estate $11,036,591
Commercial Banks $3,537,569
Hospitals/Nursing Homes $3,473,368
But they are actually “loath” about little he has done so far. After all, that kind of cash “triggers” a bonding like few others.
In fact, I can imagine all of them slapping him on the back, saying, “Heck of a job, Barack”
Yeah, I’ll take 1 step back occasionally, as long as it always comes with 2 steps forward and we’re not just in permanent triangulation mode a la Clinton. That’s how we win the marathon. The demographics are in our favor.
I hear you on the FDL frustration, but I’m thinking that with the current mindfuck phase of the health care debate, it’s understandable. I think we need to keep our wits about us, and if we can get something pretty good, I hope everyone will calm back down and get focused on jobs, financial regulation, cap and trade, EFCA, etc…If we do get decent HCR and people are still going to be in permanent bitch at ObamaRahma mode then forget it (notice how they don’t talk a lot about how Rahm was the only one backing up Biden on Afghanistan?). Or if HCR truly does suck and it’s looking like Obama is Clinton 2, then I’ll be raising my pitchfork too.
Well, of course Bernie Sanders next time he’s up. Sherrod Brown of course. And Russ Feingold, who have all signaled they’ll support this corporate sell-out!!111!1 Blue America sure is gonna be busy!
(cough)
Not following you there. Are what the same?
Another way to put it, mikesong–you know a lot, and have a head on your shoulders. But (you knew a “but” was coming, right?) you let the evidence take you too far, you try a bit too hard to make it prove what you would like to happen as opposed to what it really shows. See what I mean?
I was trying to figure out what
meant?
Thanks a lot…see my above comment. I don’t mind taking some slings and arrows at this fever pitch point in the debate…hoping we Firepups can stick together for the long haul.
have power over Congress, and can influence them
are these the same in your opinion?
If I might jump in – we may never know.
he’s not laying the groundwork for everything i mentioned? where have you been?!
Wiener up
he hired the bankrobbers to advise him on how to stop bankrobbers. a good strategy in a crisis, as long as he sticks to his guns and doesn’t listen to them too much as we get out of the crisis, which is how i think it’s playing out….but we will see.
That people sometimes over react, and the reason they do, belongs to them alone. I include myself in that statement.
Last night I over reacted to eCAHN who pushed one of my buttons, but then I got over it.
No one is immune.
“Single payer was a contrivance”. . .I thought it was gospel?
If Obama had 68 Dems in the Senate and several Repubs that would vote with him, which LBJ had, Obama would be doing things much differently right now in my opinion.
got it
eCAHN lives to push buttons me thinks!
Still not following you; are WHAT the same? The President and congress? No.
My question is to mikesong who wants to have it both ways, that Obama can’t do anything that congress doesn’t make law for, or that Obama can somehow make Reconcilliation happen in the Senate. It’s the “He’s not Superman” vs “11th Dimensional Chess” thing that I want answered.
If a bullfrog had wings he wouldn’t bust his ass when he hoppped!
Dear black and white, meet grey:
Obama does have some limited influence over Congress, just as they do him, as Reid does Sanders, as Harkin does Nelson, as Rahm does Snowe, as Lieberman’s head does Lieberman’s ass. It’s called checks and balances. A fine system had it not been corrupted by ridiculous filibuster rules and abandoning Jefferson’s view that we needed Constitutional Conventions every decade or two.
But if that’s too mushy, have fun in black and white world.
You’re so childish. ;)
is having power over the same as having influence. . .obviously they are not the same.
What? He is on Rachel.
Ok, you young people have fun.
Certainly the gang of 4, I’d through Carper and Bayh in there at least. You don’t want to get too carried away, but anywhere there’s a real need and the polls suggest it’s possible or we have a good challenger, I say why not? They mostly don’t fear us; we have to change that.
Really? Joe and Evan support single payer? I do, but I’m also aware that there are not 60 votes to get single payer, let alone a robust pure public option and I’m not sitting around pouting about it. The Democratic Party is diverse and spans the spectrum from a democratic socialist to conservatives, but the thing that brings us together is that we think that government can do good for the people.
Try running a Democrat in Indiana for Senate who supports single payer, watch them pick up 35% of the vote. Hell, I bet that a single payer supporter couldn’t even win in Connecticut.
See you there sometime.
sure. it’s 3/4ths calling it as i see it, 1/8 trying to stay strong in advance of a feeling of rapidly impending hopelessness, and 1/8 devil’s advocate.
thanks :)
There you go again, see? Weiner’s on Rachel? C’mon now…
What pisses me off most about this whole process are the clowns like Yglesias, Drum, Klein, and even Marshall, who go along with each one of these so-called “new compromises” (read: butt-fuckings) which they insist are always “actually better in some ways than what we’re giving up” — because what we’re giving up has been turned into a sham — but turn out, of course, to be worse than we ever could have imagined.
And all while this sequential gangbanging is going on, all the BHO-ass-kissing shitheads preach to us to withhold our judgment because “we don’t know all the details yet.” Then, after the details come out, they snip “well, that’s all that was really possible.” Or, better yet, “Unlike you, I’m in it for the long haul.”
To all of the above, kiss my ass.
yeah, and the fact that we’re getting close i think is making him extra cautious. if we can get him 5 more Senators in his second term – whether through general election or primarying the problem children – we’ll get to meet the real Obama.
OK then, you’re on record that Obama definitely has responsibilities to fulfill all of his campaign promises since it is indeed a grey world.
Not a single issue voter here, as I despised his FISA position, his Afghan War position and his Gay position. That being said, I voted for him.
You admit he has influence on congress. He also has full rein on exec issues. He called Baucus a couple times a week during the ccrafting of the Senate bill.
So you’re prepared to say that the Senate bill is not Obama’s agreed-to bill, and he had no influence on it? That’s the point of Jane’s post.
Obama owns it.
Yer phookin all over it.
PNAC was NOT writ in 2000 . . . ya know? *G*
So the real Obama in the campaign has to be a fake Obama in governance now, until he gets 90 senators, at which point he can be the real Obama again?
That says a lot more about Senators than it does about the Presidency, doesn’t it?
I’m now with Raven on this . . . . evidence is in, it’s brutal, it’s harsh.
What we DO now, to counter, is still up for deliberation . . . . as I’m no leader in these matters.
OK, I guess I asked for it:
looks very unlikely at this point–don’t hold your breath
not enough $ there. Unemployment is likely to hold or go up
won’t work with a bad economy and endless war
might help him a bit IF he really does it
he’s putting in 30,000 more troops. THINK about that. You can’t withdraw by putting in more troops. It’s that simple (no the surge in Iraq wasn’t what really made the difference, see Juan Cole’s blog)
exactly what he’s NOT fighting for (or even laying groundwork for)
Look at the evidence. Follow it where it leads. That’s the point here. Yes I worked like hell for Obama also (knowing I would be disappointed), but he’s worse than I expected.
Hell, I would prefer to support the GOP in their tanking this healthcare sham. Sure, their reasons are not my reasons but the enemy of my enemy is my friend. For now.
Better no bill than a corporate giveaway. Obama needs to be safely ejected from office before a healthcare bill can be passed, and the added benefit is that when Obama is done, so is Lieberman (he wont be getting reelected again).
Obama is the enemy and ANYONE that opposes him and his neoliberal way is a friend. That makes the GOP MY friend…for now. Once Obama is dealt with, THEN I will worry about wasting the GOP.
It isn’t that simple.
Thanks for responding and good to hear.
I’m suggesting (gently) why not step out of this box, the division of labor in which the DNC comes up with some centrist who even if he/she does manage to beat a Bachmann, six months later we’re complaining because we helped elect a blue dog? Instead, why not take the lead, putting forth a stronger (feistier) Democrat to take on the Republican directly? That, it seems to me, would do a lot to counter the conventional wisdom that these guys HAVE TO run right in these areas.
I agree that elections have consequences and all that voted for Obama knew that he was not a hard left Democrat, knew that he was pragmatic and more interested in getting things done. I am continuing to see that loss of the truth of who Barack Obama is in favor of people trying to make him who they are. Elections do have consequences and because they do, I will never sit on my hands and allow Republicans to win in elections that they do not deserve to win . The consequences of GW Bush being elected to a second term is that my uncle’s son is dead after being killed by a sniper bullet in Iraq. The consequences of GW Bush being elected is that our country is in a deep financial hole. The consequences of Barack Obama not being elected is President John McCain and Vice President Palin. The consequences of that , no health care debate, invasion of Iran, and fightin gin Afghanistan in perpetuity. I am willing to give President Obama the benefit of every doubt not because he is not GW Bush, John McCain , or Sarah Palin, but because I believe that he gives a damn about the people of this country and what we are going through. In my opinion , hard left politicos are no different than hard right politicos. For each of them there is no room for compromise due to ideology and those that will compromise become the enemy and must be culled out. This is as unproductive for liberals as it is for Repblicans. So when the left starts talking about getting rid of people that don’t vote the way they believe their party label should lead them to vote , they should really look in the mirror and I dare say you will see a liberal tea partier staring back.
no, just a cautious Obama, and only on some issues. for instance, climate is very important, but the chances for even weak cap and trade aren’t looking great in the Old White Man’s club (Senate), so he’s doing an end-run around them through the EPA.
i’m not saying we have to elect dozens more senators. there’s a huge difference between 60 with a lot of weakness at the margin, to 64 and not as much weakness.
Then tell me how Obama can have influence over the crafting of the legislation, and not own the product that is being delivered.
The ultimate ownership will be the signature on the bill, btw.
Hey, don’t get me wrong, I vote.
And if my vote is subject for either Obama, or Palin or equivalent from the GOP?
I vote Obama.
I still want a voice to kick his fuckin ass back to Chicago for what seems to be fuckin up the BEST chance we had in our past 30 years to significantly influence any change.
In his first 100 daze.
And he’s caved, fallen, and shat on us all that got him ass elected.
I’m bitter, and angry. But I want change.
We argue on, I guess . .. *G*
Slightly OT: Diary up at DK re Obama giving $500 million to community health centers, with approx $100 million going to electronic medical records (EMR) — that’s about 1/5 of the funds to EMR.
I mused in a reply how Obama has always given and odd amount of weight to EMR wrt our health care fiasco. I wondered if he did so because of payback for a big donor and low and behold — 2 minutes of googling revealed that it sure looks like the case: http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/MoneyTrail/story?id=8242935&page=1 .
It’s the story of how a huge donor –the co-founder of a EMR company — has been appointed to be chief technology officer of the Department of Health and Human Services.
This is a story folks — at least it would be amongst us if it was Bush doing it.
What we need to do is to go after Democrats who are up for election in 2010 in their primaries. All of them. Even the ones we like.
If we can push the congress to the left, the President will jump to the front of the parade and claim to be their leader.
I’m still waiting for that new coalition to form. You can call it the Teapouters, or something like that. Where do we sign up? C’mon we don’t have all day here! Get it together.
if we can get him 5 more Senators in his second term – whether through general election or primarying the problem children – we’ll get to meet the real Obama.
Until then, we have to settle for the fake Obama?
Then by that logic, where is the Fierce Advocate’s end run around DADT via a stop-loss order?
Everyone fixates on Presidential elections. Things are nearly decided by the time anything gets to that point. The power is in the congressional and senatorial primaries. That’s what matters.
You can’t threaten me with Sarah Palin in all of them.
Influencing and owning are not the same thing. They aren’t even synonyms.
he was dealt a really bad hand, and if the employment number is coming down people will cut him a lot of slack, particularly with regard to the Senate races.
and yes you can have a surge as a pretext for withdrawal. i hate to say it, but you’re viewing it from a military perspective when Obama is viewing it slightly more from a political perspective. as well he should, because this is a small war of necessity masquerading under a much larger temporary war of choice.
We don’t need 64 senators, just 60 good ones. We can replace the worst of ours. If Blanche Lincoln is reelected we progressives deserve whatever we get. Better to scare other conservatives by being her spoiler than to let her stay in. Let her be a symbol of what happens to those who sell out their constituents to the highest bidder.
No, like him, we settle for what is possible.
Reading some of the posts on here , it is no wander that we can not become a movement . Not happy with the the compromises, then where are the calls for the march on Washington by those that want it. During the summer, where were the counter protests? I live in SC and I showed up at Rep. John Spratt town hall and I argued and made my voice heard over the din of the crazy tea partiers. Rather than lambasting the President I did something. I didn’t threaten to stay home in 2010 so that we go backward in the number of seats we have.
I would personally love that! It is a resource question though. Ideally, if the DNC would actually be meaningful counters to the Republicans, we wouldn’t even be having this discussion.
I still believe the DNC needs smacking around until they get it. Then we wouldn’t have to be alone in movin the damn Overton window left ourselves.
I get that gay rights is important to you, it is to me too, but not enough to people in the country. Labor is very important to a lot of people, so is the environment, so is getting an f’n job, but all those groups are basically waiting in line. You have to know your place in that line and not try to cut. Sorry to be harsh. And sorry that FISA is so important to you…there are so many important things but you seem to have picked the ones that are the most difficult for Obama to support you on.
Let me put it this way.
You go to buy a house, and you negotiate. The price you pay is a direct result of what you influenced the price to be. Now, you own it.
[Synonyms not required; the culmination of a process is an event, and it's those bits in the process that determine the outcome of the event.]
To continue; If you didn’t negotiate, well the process went just fine for the seller now, didn’t it? And you bought, and still own, the house.
Totally agree, as I said we can do it in primaries. Is Halter accepting donations yet? I’m in.
Before you smack the DNC, please smack the DLC. What a bunch of corporate hypocrites. I really detest them. They are a tiny bit to the left of Republicans.
President Obama does not need more Senators to be the “real” Obama. He was very clear on the campaign trail on where he stood. Never lead anyone to believe that he was an ultra liberal.
Every day some of you need to remind yourselves that we do not have a parliamentary system of govenment. {I wish we did.}
There seems to be considerable amount of confusion here about that.
Damn, once it was #62 or so, a guy goes to feed his old lady and himself, pour some Merlot, and pick a bit on his bobro and it’s all of a phookin 300 comments again.
I give up. Bless Mz. Hamsher, my fav Pups and all the rest of yas . .
Healthcare not health care coverage, for all. Now.
And fuck the 1%.
Harumph.
KNOW YOUR PLACE!
That’s what you respond to me with?
Ha! I’m going to go fire me up a double martini, and get some buzz going to this major laff!
Your place in line, I said. First in line are people looking for jobs, then people who care about the environment, then people who’d like to join a union. They’re all pissed off too and resorting to a buzz (good idea, actually). But c’mon, you knew gay rights was largely a second term proposition, right? In the meantime if you want to do something productive for gay rights, let’s work to repeal Prop 8, if you happen to be a fellow golden-stater.
Right on. Just like we got the first melanin-enhanced man elected President, when most said it wasn’t possible and the MegaMedia doing everything they could to stop it, we’ll get single-payer healthcare and others things done.
We do it by getting our hands dirty in our communities. Rosa Parks and MLK never signed an online petition. They went to school to learn how to do it:
http://blogs.knoxnews.com/silence/archives/2005/10/rosa_parks_and_1.shtml
(one of my favorite photos ever)
Good on ya!
You have now been on the blog defending Obama and selling this plan all day long. I’m curious what it is you do for a living.
so much rationalizing and apologetics. obama is decietful and two faced. i guess all politicians are but he has been especially not good at fobbing it off on the scapegoat(s), which only makes him look worse. I personally went from dedicated supporter to dedicated to seeing him defeated in 2012. I dont – fucking – CARE what republicans do.
who cares if you put “in line” in your comment.
Do you have any idea how offensive that sentiment is? It boils down to:
“Be a good faggot, donate money, vote like I want you to, wait a couple years for your turn, and sorry that’s teh way it is because you know you don’t count as much, right?”
and yes you can have a surge as a pretext for withdrawal. i hate to say it, but you’re viewing it from a military perspective when Obama is viewing it slightly more from a political perspective.
Are you taking into account the men and women who will die because of his “political perspective?” If his is a “political perspective,” as you claim, he is fucking immoral.
lol, perfect.
We are all fully citizens or none of us are.
How come they let you get away with this? When I call bullshit, they just ignore me?
First off, I have not been selling this plan, I’ve repeatedly said I think the jury’s out, and I will be intensely watching to see how it develops. I’m more likely to sour on the plan on Obama than at least 95% of voters, it just seems that’s making me the house moderate here. Really not a position I relish, people who know would surely not describe me that way. But I guess here or at least on this issue that’s how it’s playing out.
I spent a lot of time here today just because I view this as an important forum for an important wing of an ascending party, on one of the most crucial days of one of the most crucial debates of our time. And also I type really fast.
I already bored people mentioning where I live – as for my job, uhh, before long I’ll be giving out my address and SS#. I’m a bit wary because I haven’t spent much time contributing to internet discussions. But feel free to email me…
Politics always has, always does and always will inform decisions regarding war. And, should.
what “ascending party” is that? how i come i didnt get a membership card?
Why is that perfect?
Good idea. Let’s let the Taliban regroup and take back Afghanistan and then we can watch the Taliban take Pakistan after that. I bet that al qaeda wouldn’t return.
You have to send $25 in order to be a member.
i did not mean it that way and i apologize if that’s how it sounded. i’m only talking about political priorities and realities, not moral priorities. put it this way, a fairly reasonable reading of Clinton’s history was that one of the first things he did was what he ironically thought was trying to help the gay movement (DADT) and that was the start of the total downfall of his presidency. is that what you want to repeat?
i have much love for gay people, but apparently people don’t even agree with me in my current home (CA) or my birth place (NY). fucking stone ages we’re living in.
i’ll send 25 dollars. have them send me their health care platform
i know. these are twisted realities we’re discussing. but would you prefer he get his ass run out of office and petraeus sacrifice these volunteers en masse with relish?
Your tap dancing skills are just mahvellous dahling. They really are.
Does anyone know when we get to see the health care bill? Will there be an unveiling with trumpets?
It’s still offensive whether you apologize or not.
You’re still not addressing the fact that you assert O can do an end run an CapNTrade via EPA, but cannot endrun DADT via stoploss.
Just exactly why is that so? Particularly when O wants more troops, the most troops since 2001 ever, in Afghanistan? And will you continue to support O as he shoves out Arabic and Pashto speakers, because of DADT?
Address the policies please, not the politics.
yeah i remember clinton. there was a lot more going on than just his GIM proposal that screwed him up. Also, that was 17 years and several wars ago. The bottom line has to be everyone in nobody is out. Health care, civil rights, the whole fucking deal i dont care what god anyone worships or how they feel about taxes, or reality tv show. we have to stop allowing them to divide us up and work us over peicemeal. the blacks get this but they cant have that, the gays are really nice folks and we’ll give them a holidiay but they cant join the marines…working class? heres the 2010 NFL schedule but your basically on your own…fuck-that-shit. everyone in..nobody out.
I’ve seen at least one elsewhere. Same username, same little piles of crap left around.
Fortunately they tend to be obvious.
Well, I’m sorry you find politics offensive, but that’s what rules the kinds of things we’re talking about. Fucking breeders.
I would hope at a minimum Obama is planning in his second term to create federal civil unions granting gay people every single right as straight people except the ability to have a man in a funny hat bless their union.
Dream on. There won’t be a second term. Which is a good thing.
Yes, the things that concern folks around here will all be better under President Palin.
I’m quite used to opposition in politics.
I’m curious as to your age and length of time in being politically active.
For disclosure, I’ll be 48 quite soon, and am used to fighting and losing issues, yet somehow gaining ground over the last 30 years.
Obama is incompetent as the CEO of the Federal government.
He’s over his head — so naturally he needs to do what
the Establishment tells him to do:
pay lip service to the people,
protect corporate wealth and power,
support the military-industrial complex,
support foreign governments that do our bidding.
(is it time for 1776 all over again?)
You mean as opposed to the folks around here unabashed joy under President Obama?
You use to be in the Bush admin?? They played the fear card all the time too. “Be very fraid of the terrists! Weee’ve got to pass this law and that law” It’s no different then you saying “Be very afraid of President Palin, we’ve got to accept whatever the Demos do!” Good luck with that here.
certainly
Sorry. It’s not coming down. Look at the projections. It’ll stay around 10% for a year or so. This does not bode well for 2010 elections, to put it mildly.
Right. Night is day, black is white, and war is peace.
Doesn’t matter how he views it. What counts is what he does. Escalating the war there, with a totally corrupt government, a country with a thousand year (or however many centuries, I forget) history of repelling invaders–and make no mistake, that’s what we are from there point of view–is a recipe for endless war.
Next thing you’ll be telling us is that you see the light at the end of the tunnel. Wake up, man!
I got a letter like the one Kobe got. I was really pissed off.
We need to pressure our government, what was that quote from FDR? Something about, I would like to do the right thing, but I am getting so much pressure to continue the status quo. Make noise, pressure me, then I can use that as an excuse to do the right thing.
The sad fact is that the political will in the country is manipulated by Fox news, and to only a lesser extent, the rest of the news media.
We can’t through out Obama with the bathwater, can any of you name a better dem for the 2012 elections? Someone that could actually win an election? They are all crooks and liars, on both sides.
Lets keep on the pressure and try to get medicare expanded, that would cut down on costs.
If Obama signs into law a plan that taxes people for not having insurance, and the only option is to line the pockets of big insurance, or eat ramen noodles, this will be a 100% disaster. The GOP will be all over it next election cycle.
I can only hope that the dems are not that stupid, but i suspect that they are.
RIP Kobe
To suggest a Republican Administration is not the answer to the concerns some have about Obama is not playing the fear card. It is the reality card.
To suggest that the terrists are seriously trying to attack us again in the homeland is not playing the fear card. It is the reality card.
You mean like that? Only one reality? Obama or Republican? Give up our civil liberties or the terrorists attack?
Like I said, you sound just like the last admin.
And one more thing:
How has that “Trickle Down” economics been working out for you?
You’re probably right on unemployment, and if so I’ll be on your side.
My point on Afghanistan is that he’s simply going to train as many Afghan troops as he can, in a year and a half say “Look, we’ve trained this many troops, let’s pat ourselves on the back. But the cost in blood and treasure is too much, so we’re going to begin transitioning troops out in a responsible manner, conditions on the ground, yadda yadda.”
We’ll have 60k troops there on election day. 30k a year after that, and 15k the next year, where it may unfortunately remain for some years. I agree with you Afghanistan is an unwinnable clusterfuck, and I think Obama does too, he just can’t exactly admit it while we “responsibly withdraw.”
something wrong with my puter. Freezing up or something. I type in the response box, but nothing shows up, then suddenly it all shows up. Makes it confusing.
That first sentence of the last post should’ve been “To suggest the terrorists are seriously going to attack us unless we give up our civil liberties isn’t playing the fear card. It is the reality card.
Not even sure it came out right this time either. Gonna log off and run some diagnostics on my machin.
I don’t know what alternate universe you are occupying, but Obama’s policy is not ‘responsible withdrawal’, – it’s a fucking surge!
If you think electing a Republican President in 2012 will be good for progressive causes, there isn’t much more for us to discuss. Sorry.
Thank you Jane, for making one thing abundantly clear: Obama is a coward. He’s one of those liberals who has all the ‘right opinions’ at cocktail parties, but doesn’t have the guts to back anything that might make waves, create any ‘unpleasantness’. He’s Mr. Above-it-all. What a craven self-promoter.
I agree with you on many matters, but not Afghanistan.
Since Alexander the Great, the only sensible strategy when a military force finds itself in Afghanistan is to get out a fast as possible.
marcopolo @ 335:
He may or may not be a coward, he is a Trojan horse for Pentagon, Wall Street, and Pharma.
I feel better that you are seeing the light on Obama before we see a mushroom cloud over a US city.
Would that I were wrong.
The problem with this is that you think things will really work out this way. War is by its nature unpredictable. Just suppose, for example, that some suicide bomber takes out a large contingent of Marines. Or the Afghan army starts fighting against us. Just use your imagination, it doesn’t take much. Those people are really determined, they live there (at least most of them), they can run across the Pakistani border and hide. Get it?
Mark your words. Remember them a year from now. You’ll see.
Even if he really does agree, it hardly matters. Look at what he is DOING, not what you think he thinks. That’s what counts.
Sorry if I’m getting rampant. Too many echos of Vietnam here, which I remember all too well…
If you think supporting Democrats no matter what their actual policies are once elected (because, after all, they’re the lesser of two evils) is good for progressive causes, you’re right, there isn’t much more to discuss.
After all, look at the progressive change we’ve managed since supporting the Democrats to a 60 seat Senate, huge majorities in the HOuse, and a sweeping electoral landside for President. Yep, that’s certainly played out well for progressive causes too. Silly me. My bad.
Just noticed–almost 350 comments! That Jane sure knows how to stir us up, don’t she!!
lol, it looks like Jane’s got the veal pen so worked up they’ve sent folks over here all day long to post their stuff.
OFG! You’re a Punk Rocker, or a Dirty Fekking Hippy! You Question Authority!
Now choose; would you like patchouli oil, or a very loud guitar? Or you could have both.
That’s what I do. Smell funny and play really loud!
Yes, we loves us some mincemeat :-)
I can almost smell the incense :-)
Stimulus
AIG, Citi, Goldman Sachs
Afghanistan and Pakistan
Health Care
There are no do-overs, these items aren’t tweakable. These are big-ticket items.
Once you are, pardon the phrasing, fucked, you can’t just get unfucked. As much as I wish it to be otherwise, Obama will have even less opportunity to wrangle his caucuses in the House and Senate after allowing a small minority of Democrats to literally bitch-slap him around the Beltway from the very start of his term.
Only that is not what happened – he didn’t lift a finger. Lieberman was the test, and he not only whiffed, he is now a victim of his own post-partisan illusions at Joe Lieberman’s own hand… and that presumes that he really was or is about substantive change. For me, the alternative is unthinkable.
But the one I liked best is still “bonkers” replying to “fuckno”. Reminds me of the days when somebody called FDL a “foul-mouthed fem blog”. Of course everyone here loved it.
I agree with you and think that’s exactly what Obama’s doing – getting out as fast as possible, which he thinks is July 2011. He thinks getting out tomorrow is impossible politically and he’s probably right that the result of that would be Pres. Petraeus. And he can’t very well spin the status quo as leading to anything good. So he says, ok, you get more troops, but not a blank check – I get a withdrawal date – 7/11. I don’t think he saw any other way to get the momentum going for us to leave any faster than that, but I wish the American people would really vote as dovish as the recent polls had suggested they might.
You’re ignoring the fact that he did announce a fixed date to begin withdrawal, which is pretty much unprecedented in military history, so he had to let most of the mainstream media minimize it. Don’t buy it.
No, I heard that. You’re ignoring the fact that the next day his people (Hillary C, Gates, Gibbs, others) started backpedalling on what the date actually meant. And you’re also ignoring military history. It never works out the way one thinks, especially in Afghanistan.
Why are you so mesmerized by Obama?
mikesong,
Listening to Ron Christie lauding the virtues of Bush Administration is only negligibly less nauseating than your gushing endorsements of all things Obama.
Dear moderator,
It appears to me that for some reason my comments are being filtered through you.
Would you be so kind to inform me via email of the particular transgressions for which I am being so penalized?
I doubt your action is borne of your witnessing my questionable actions. And since we are here nearly all fierce defenders of democracy, I would kindly ask you to review the validity/conformity of the grounds upon which my comments are being forced into a holding pattern that make dialog near impossible.
thanks,
Yee hah!
My favorite is when Norske says “Citizen Fuckno.”
Makes me laugh every time.
I’m dazed and disgusted. As for Obama, is this really a surprise? As soon as he voted for FISA I knew he was full of shit. In fact I knew from the beginning and should have gone with my gut. Liberal my ass. Please excuse me while I puke!!
Damn right. Different groups are on the back foot, turning in circles trying to defend their territory. Obama and his corporate, “bi-partisan” allies, under cover of “health care reform,” are attacking everyone – women, the elderly, the poor, workers. That’s the eleven-dimension chess game and we are the pawns.
I ‘actually looked at his voting record too, hopey, but I also listened to his campaign promises and expected him to lead by them. I knew he was just to the left of the Clintons which put him squarely in the center. But I also voted for him on the basis of words->mouth.
Here is a link to a post that lists the progressive campaign speeches of our now-President and what he supported then and how badly he duped us on HCR:
http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2009/12/9/812361/-UPDATE:-My-Thoughts-On-The-Public-Option-Being-Dropped
Moi Aussie.
In fact, the Clintons were so close to the numbers at the DEM convention and so fucking insane about being outsmarted by the Obama team, that who knows what evil was perpetrated to get the nomination to the winner? Bankers were definately in the room as was Mr. Emanuel.
If Barack was forced into a deal, then I sure as fuck hope it has a date certain close-out. Even his FISA vote was within this timeframe of let’s make a deal. There is just no doubt that the Clinton’s got something out of their August threats and it wasn’t just SOS for the Mrs. (I am not a major Clinton hater, FTR, just a hater of their third way). And this is not excusing Obama as much as a WTF happened to the person who ran for President?
I just got this email from barackobama.com:
Subject: We will not back down!
Send contributions
Do they live in a closed fishbowl after only ten months in office? Do they think we are all naïve, like the Tea Baggers? Gawd, these people are delusional!
This is what I fear about healthcare reform.
Without the public potion or any anti trust provisions, the insurance companies will set the political agenda for the next 3 years.
Without controls, the insurance companies’ rates will soar based on the fact that the Democrats forced them to take riskier people. This is the claim they will make, and it will be trumpeted by the GOP. This will be a tremendous obstacle to any Democrat for the foreseeable future.
The Republicans will expose the electorate to this simply, allowing this to happen for their political expediency.
Obama refuses to recognize this. If he was smart he’d hire Howard Deane to force the issue, but the more I see of this process, the more I’m disgusted with the weak and irresponsible President we have. Irresponsible, because he’s setting traps for all of us in this health care legislation by not INSISTING that the public option or anti trust provision are in place, or allowing true debate on single payer.
The NYTimes described the Afghanistan review panels in Sunday’s paper. Obama was described as sitting in these meetings, acting like a professor, listening, detached.
Just what we need! It’s too bad we cannot take a no confidence vote in his government. I’ve not seen political party so willingly take a majority and use it to become an ineffective minority, all in 10 months.
We need to revise the Senates rules for business, getting rid of this 60 vote cloture quagmire (why not 55?), install term limits where possible and campaign finance reform. Our now damaged and fragile democracy demands it.
Unless I see a big change in Obama’s demeanor, I won’t vote for him again, or vote for his party again.
“something you could only believe if you were a complete stranger to Mr. Google”
I think that Rahmists expect us to google, but only for sports scores and recipes. What they don’t expect is that anyone will gather up the pieces and put them together so that we can see the whole. Rahm and his ilk actually believe that we have all somehow started to think in context-free sound bites, more or less like they and their counterparts in the MSM do.
Thank goodness for FDL, a bastion of coherent thought holding out against ninnies.