Obama FAIL

oops: “Candada.”

thanks..signed..passing out to others

Hamsher/Maddow 2012!

Eve has this up at Seminal…timely
As the Senate debates, in Kansas City, thousands of Americans brave bitter cold for urgent free healthcare

http://seminal.firedoglake.com/diary/18206

Is anyone aware of C-Span covering any of these Free Clinics?

‘Nuff said.

Not related to HCR, but related to the same theme:
“Obama has now escalated deployments in the Af-Pak region to 98,000 US troops. So in Af-Pak and Iraq, he will now have a total of 222,000 US troops deployed, 36,000 more than Bush ever had – 186,000 was Bush’s highest total.”
From an AlterNet article posted today. So Obama is an even bigger chickenhawk than Bush! Obama seems to constantly use fear-mongering…it’s like he’s done it constantly ever since he’s been in office in order to get his way on legislation.

Here is Obama on the campaign trail addressing healthcare:

4/08

The pharmaceutical industry wrote into the prescription drug plan that Medicare could not negotiate with drug companies. And you know what the chairman of the committee, who pushed the law through went to work for the pharmaceutical industry making 2 million dollars a year.

Imagine that.

That’s an example of the same old game playing in Washington. You know I don’t want to learn how to play the game better, I want to put an end to the game playing.

And:

12/07

But one thing I have to say, we are not going to make some of these changes unless we change how business is done in Washington. The reason that we can’t negotiate prescription drugs under the Medicare prescription drug plan is because the drug companies specifically sought and obtained a provision in that bill that prevented us from doing it.

And:

10/08

First, we’ll take on the drug and insurance companies and hold them accountable for the prices they charge and the harm they cause… And then we’ll tell the pharmaceutical companies, ‘Thanks but no thanks for overpriced drugs’. Drugs that cost twice as much here as they do in Europe and Canada and Mexico. We’ll let Medicare negotiate for lower prices. We’ll stop drug companies from blocking generic drugs that are just as effective and far less expensive. We’ll allow the safe reimportation of low-cost drugs from countries like Canada

And:

3/08

I’m going to listen to everybody. We’ll have the doctors and the nurses and the members of Congress and patient advocates. I’ll have the insurance and drug companies at the table. They just won’t be able to buy every chair. And we will… And I’ll be at the table. I’ll have the biggest chair, because I’m president. If people have other ideas and I don’t assume that I’ve got every single idea. It can be improved and I want input. We’re going to have to make some compromises.

But here’s the thing. We’re going to do all these negotiations on C-SPAN. The American people will be able to watch these negotiations so if they start seeing a member of Congress who is carrying the water for the drug companies instead of for their constituents and says, ‘Oh, you no. we can’t negotiate for the cheapest available price on drugs because the drug companies need these profits to invest in research and development’, I’ll say, ‘OK, let me bring my health care expert in here’. And on TV, we’ll ask my health care expert, ‘What do you think about what the drug companies are saying?’

THANK YOU, JANE!

Signed, and added the following:

President Obama,

The American people will not be giving up on real health care reform going forward, even though the ten Democratic members of the United States Senate who were tasked by Leader Reid to kill a public option while he sat in a corner, curled up, shaking and hugging his knees, have scuttled the last vestige of real health care reform for the moment.

Democrats will face significant consequences for this failure in upcoming elections, as we work to get leaders who represent the American people.

There are no excuses for Reid’s failure. Nor are there any for yours, President Obama. On health care in the nation you say you want to build for the better, you’re letting us down.

Sincerely,
Brc

ps – I thought it was shameless of you last night to send out an email asking for money from people who can’t afford to give it, asking Americans to trust you to help them, asking Americans to put all their hopes in you, at the very same time that you’re let them all down.

If you haven’t seen the Obama email I refer to, see it here.

Signed.

Epic Fail. It would be best if the “health care” bill is defeated, rather than forcing us into indertured servitude to insurance and banking insustry. Obama sucks. 1 term.

Signed, and gladly.

We’re comin’.

http://www.truthout.org/120909jl01

Reid: Democrats Reach “Broad Agreement,” Public Option Still Alive

thanks, georgewalton; this sort of stuff is invaluable.

Signed. Not that Obama had anything to do with this deal – which is pretty much the problem.

I’m totally confused. I thought they threw the public option out. ???????????

hell yes I signed.

eCAHN, Hugh or any other Wall St saavy firedog –

why are Big Insurance stocks down by an avg 1 percentage point so far today?
is that the Street waiting on CBO analysis ?

I signed this earlier today. And added brief comments expressing my disappointment with nearly everything Obama has done thus far.

Rahm got his trigger, so far as I can tell. Rahm–Obama’s COS. How could this happen without Obamas approval?

I don’t know; I haven’t had cnbc on since this morning. No doubt there will be some instant analysis at the close.

Can’t get to that link…what’s the story?

Hamilton Project says: Obama and Rahm are of one mind with R.Rubin, as well as Lords; Blankenfein and Dimon.

Don’t know. Was answering Leen #12. Would like to understand why Reid says PO is still alive.

Liberals will live without the public option
http://www.salon.com/news/healthcare_reform/index.html?story=/politics/war_room/2009/12/09/healthcare_liberals

I didn’t see any headlines about it on cnbc.com, which is really a terribly designed website.

me too. looking at Salon, Politico…bloggers going wild. Dems keeping details locked down. Rockefeller sounds happy…Howard Dean…not Feingold. Keeping us hanging right now. Jason Leopold has one up at truthout or did I all ready link that one

thanks! just been following the numbers at my link – I’ll keep an eye out at close

Rachel, Keith, Matthews, Ed will be tossing it out tonight. Making the publics head spin. WTF when are they going to tell us what is going on.

I picture Rahm pacing back and forth in the Oval Office, nervously calculating the potential impact of… a petition.

Twain and Leen

Harry is referring to my 56 yo ass being able to buy Big Insurance sometime in 2011 as a PO

Here is more fail.
time-lapse video of unemployment rates over two years

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RrP9qJmjIsA

Thank you Jane – over the years, I have not always agreed with you or christie, but could always see that your beliefs were consistent and you had integrity.

The base of people that made obama’s historic election possible needs to be loud and clear – WE HAVE BEEN SOLD OUT!

Your efforts are greatly appreciated and, more importantly, respected.

I really hate this dealing in secret. Makes me feel as if the Politburo is going to issue a statement.

Great mailing, Jane. I’ve duped and put it on my own site, w/ links.

AND THE KILLIN’ GOEZ ON AND ON AND…

Citizen hamsher and the Firepup Freedom Fighters:

I signed the petetion but I won’t spend one more dime on ANYthin unless it has a specific task and goal. I sent a message on the petition that said that I no longer supported Obama or his administration and would continue as I have for the last number of years to work at the local state and congressional level to electect REAL progressive Democrats and that I would work for a primary challenge in 2012.

Sister Jane, now is NOT the time to cave in this is NAFTA all over again. Please keep the heat on right up to the bitter end on this healthcare fight and if progressives can kill the bill we can make real healthcare reform an issue in 2010 and EFCA and a jobs bill hafta be progressive initiatives from the House and Senate. Nothin’ this President advances gets through Congress unless it comes through the progressive caucus. We can’t let ObamaRhma do what ClintonoRahma did to the country and party with NAFTA and the 1994 Congressional elections.

ObamaRahma’s strategy today is exactly what Rahm and the Clinton’s did in ’92-94…they want to reduce or eliminate the Democratic majorities in congress in order to triangulate with the fascists to advance “bipartisan” policies and legislation.

I admit it, I got snookered and it won’t happen again at least with this bastard President.

And Citizen Hamsher, what is happenin’ with takin down NARAL and NOW and buildin’ a real progessive women’s movement? Think of what could be done right now with the millions that these floosies have in the bank!!

KEEP THE FAITH AND PASS THE AMMUNITION, THERE ARE MORE OF US THAN THERE ARE OF THEM!!!

Yes he has let us all down and to ask for a donation when we are dying out here literally, is just plain disgusting.

My 2 cents,

Cat In Seattle

“ObamaRahma’s strategy today is exactly what Rahm and the Clinton’s did in ‘92-94…they want to reduce or eliminate the Democratic majorities in congress in order to triangulate with the fascists to advance “bipartisan” policies and legislation.”

Dead on right!!!

sorry, wrong thread; this goes with #34

Obama is already writing a Pillager’s memoir on ‘How to Serve People”.

Citizen Beese:

Read my post at #34 and then get the condescendin’ snark out of your ass and roll up your fuckin sleeves!

http://www.nydailynews.com/blogs/dc/2009/12/obama-backs-senate-health-comp.html

The Feminist Majority seems to be in the right place.
That’s http//feminist.org

Signed and made a modest contribution to FDL/ActBlue to keep up the fight. (I’ve long since dropped out of Obama/OFA, DSCC and DNCC mailing lists.)

Thanks for not giving up yet, Jane. Maybe there is still a sliver of hope, in spite of Obama and congressional “leadership.”

We are getting worse than the status quo. It’s incredible they can take the worst health care system in the industrialized world, and actually make it worse.

If it’s not going to be a genuine overhaul, KILL THE BILL!

Now we need to bring back the phone banks and the door-to-door organizing which Obama taught us, to defeat every last one of the Dogs who are facilitating Obama and Emmanuel in selling us out.

Hope you kept your contacts – the thing about that organizing is that the people make people-to-people contacts which don’t necessarily end when the campaign is over.

We got more Democrats. Now we can replace them with better, Real Democrats.

We went from a Preznit who was a MIserable Failure to a President who is Failing Miserably. It’s gonna be a loooong 12 years since Gore won.

Quite welcome.

It comes from a complilation of video clips at Huffington Post.

Oh, and stay away from third parties. ; o )

Signed.

Meanwhile, curiously, Charles Grassley just put out a press release publicizing a bipartisan amendment he is sponsoring (along with Democrat Byron Dorgan and Rethugs Olympia Snowe and John McCain) that supposedly permits drug reimportation. Anyone know about this and whether it sucks in the fine print?

DEFUND THE DNC

Signed…
And no money for DNC or BO unless the Public Option is enacted and it must be based on the VA/Medicare model. I like the VA as they negotiate all drugs and services!!!
Hi Norske(:>)) Keep up the fight my friend….
How is retirement going?

So what happens now? Can the progressives in the house still vote down the bill? I’m not sure where it goes from here. Just wondering

And I have yet to see anyone post this – using a bogus “buy in” to medicare is meaningless if the repugs (and blue dog dems/obama) intend on gutting it and Social Security in the near future.

And best guess is, THEY DO!

“Census Bureau Reports Collapse In State Tax Revenue, Liquor Stores Only Bright Spot”

“total state revenues dropped by 16% to $1.678 trillion, even as total expenses increased by 6.2% to $1.736 trillion.”

This makes the following conclusion by Mike Whitney relevant:

“Obama is deliberately precipitating another crisis on the advise of his chief lieutenants. Summers and Geithner are steering the economy back into recession so they can implement the same austerity measures and “structural adjustment” programs which have been used throughout the developing world. It’s “starve the beast” all over again. As the stimulus dries up, revenue-depleted states will be forced to auction off public lands, resources, parks and other assets to the highest bidder. The banksters and robber barons will feast on the country’s treasures while the middle class is crushed by the freefalling dollar, lost home equity, and persistent high unemployment.”

http://www.zerohedge.com/article/census-bureau-reports-collapse-state-tax-revenue-liquor-stores-only-bright-spot

http://www.counterpunch.org/whitney12082009.html

Citizen Beese:

And another thing, we CAN shove the fear of God and the people right up Rahm’s ass but it won’t be by sittin’ back with a beer and a doobie and laughin’ at the folks who have been fightin’ the devil right along…if you dare to snark on well meanin’ folks here again you’ll get the full Viking treatment.

You the same unnamed woman who was outed in the Senate for making those political attacks for narrow goals? Makes me want to sign twice and contribute again.

Sure the PO is still alive. Just b/c it will be a public-private opt-in opt-out regional co-op possibly triggered by 2020 if that is ok with olympia snowe doesn’t mean that obama is not going to hold the insurance companies accountable. They will be forced to accept billions of dollars from us, but i have no doubt the coverage will be awesome!

Petition signed.
This President in not triangulating, he has been triangulated.
Fail indeed.
I’d blame Rahm, but he didn’t pick himself.

This had nothing to do with Obama because his style is to let the lawmaking branch of gov’t have full control over making laws, for better or worse. He views the Senate as so much more conservative than himself that he can have little leverage over their wimpy ways.

Citizen Navagator:

No citizen, defund the DNC until they put Howard Dean back in charge. If progressives can wrestle the DNC from ObamaRahma, that is the force that can keep the bastard honest in the White House. Howard Dean in a primary against Obama!

If you haven’t seen the Obama email I refer to, see it here.

Thanks for letting me know what was in the e-mail. When I see stuff from obama or the DNC, DCCC, DSCC, I delete without reading, unless I’m in the mood for searching for ways to get a response through their firewall/maze.

Obviously, I’m not saying I support the guy, or the party. Too many Epic Fails in too short a period of time – and it could have been so much different in that same timeframe. However, it’s a certainty that the Wingnutigentsia are smelling 2010 & 2012 blood in the water. How might an overall strategy to combat that reality take shape? I’m seeing some scary shit on the horizon, no matter how I slice it…

signed. Obama duly mocked over at my place.

Start with: Free health care for all Americans. Congress can decide who pays and why and how much. Congress can decide what is excluded. Congress can decide whom to deny. Enough of the suffering and dying already. I cannot stand by and watch 45,000 PEOPLE die every year. I insist that readily accessible high quality health care be freely available to all Americans. Anything less is uncivilized and barbaric. Go Jane!

mikesong there are a few diaries by fflambeau which you should consider reading. There upon we might have a more valuable dialog.

http://seminal.firedoglake.com/diary/17981

http://seminal.firedoglake.com/diary/17984

http://firedoglake.com/2008/02/13/the-hamilton-project-same-corporatist-whine-in-new-dlc-vessels/

also: Obama, As Predicted

http://www.zmag.org/znet/viewArticle/23196

Coverage will be awesome if you are a wealthy white man that wants help with your erections. If you are a woman, or anyone else, it will suck.

Just why do women lay those guys anyhow?

it is probably an attempt at pokng the WH over this

Not perfect but would save the American consumer roughly 100 billion over the next ten years according to CBO. That is money in your pocket of course it violates Obama’s precious deal with PhRMA.

MONEY!!!!

I picture Rahm pacing back and forth in the Oval Office, nervously calculating the potential impact of… a petition.

Did you see the lead story over at HuffPost a while ago, showing the “pyramid” of WH folks “in charge” of managing the health care debacle: Rahm, Sebelius, Daschle [!!!!], Orzag.

I mean, WTF, why not just put Holy Joe and The Tan One [Boehner]in charge?

To the Firedoglake team: Great work! I send the Obamafail letter to several friends. Hope it helps.

This is just another version of 13-dimensional chess. He has backtracked on everything he said during the campaign.

He put a known huckster with a clear record of selling out progressives in charge as his COS.

He has absolutely NO executive experience until taking the oath of office – absolutely NO TRACK RECORD.

And you want to proclaim “its his style”.

Just insane…

No citizen, defund the DNC until they put Howard Dean back in charge. If progressives can wrestle the DNC from ObamaRahma, that is the force that can keep the bastard honest in the White House. Howard Dean in a primary against Obama!

You realize that Dr. Dean thinks this new deal is OK.

In a boost for the Senate health care deal reached yesterday, Howard Dean said in an interview with me moments ago that the current compromise contains “real reform,” and said that as it stands now, progressives could support it.

I don’t know enough about it to say one way or the other. So, I am reading and listening before making a judgment.

ooooh – if you thought the lies about the infamous (and totally dishonest) “Dean Scream” were shrill, just wait until he gathers up enough gumption to challenge the little “o” in a primary!

I would love to see it, but the mainstream media will make sure we don’t.

Citizen ShotoJamf:

Fear is just a four letter word, Citizen, and the fight to beat back the fascist movement starts right now today. 2010 CAN be a progressivre victory but it hasta start with EFCA and a real jobs bill comin out of the progressive caucuses of both houses of Congress in January. NO Obama intiative gets through either house unless it originates in the progressive caucus. And first the progressives must kill the healthcare bill or at least go down with all guns blazin’ to send Obama a message that with fewer Democrats and more fascists he doesn’t stand a snowball’s chance in a hot place of survivin’ beyond 2012.

epic flail.

Thank you Jane, and everyone at FDL who keeps us connected to the real ruth behind the
shenanigans in D. C. ! Here’s what I sent along – fyi – I’ve been unhappy with the slope
of things in this administration since its second month. The work you, and others are doing
to keep the light shining brightly on these issues is incredibly invaluable. Thanks, again!

Dear President Obama,

The high hopes you eloquently imparted to all of us who
supported you for the highest office of this land have been
completely dashed – by whom? – you might fairly ask: the
answer is simple, and shocking: by you.

Because we, the people of the United States suffered the
worst 8 years in U.S. history created by your predecessors
Bush/Cheney, and their ugly ilk, the “Republican” party, I had
at least the best sense that you truly represented a return to
sanity, and courage in these, some of the darkest days of our
Republic.

But, unbelievably, you have failed us on every major issue:
the craven Bank loans-but-no-jobs – paid for by U.S. taxpayers,
the no-show, AWOL approach you used for championing one of
the most significant issues in U.S. history – Health *Reform* – and,
most recently, your Nobel “Peace” spirit in escalation of the U.S. war
in Afghanistan.

Given your high-spoken promises of “Change We Can Believe
In” you gave us all real hope – you would be true to your word.
But, to declare, as *one* of many false rationales that in Afghanistan
we need to “… finish the Job”, you again have clearly exhibited
the “stuff” you are made of: lies. Why would you be the LAST one
to know that the Job in Afghanistan had been completed?! How
could you, knowing the past 8 years, have missed the fact that that
Job already ENDED: in FAILURE!!! Bush/Cheney failure!! Let me
remind you – the only U.S. purpose to bring the U.S. military into
Afghanistan was to pursue, find and capture Osama Bin Laden. The
only responsible action remaining for the Untied States of America to
do is LEAVE AFGHANISTAN!

Did you not learn the simple Truth of American War failures
of the past 60 years?! The people of Vietnam did not want to become
“Good Americans”. The people of Iraq did not want to become
“Good Americans”. The people of Afghanistan DO NOT WANT to
become “Good Americans”.

And, now, when Good Americans -here at home- yearn for fairness in
something so vital as Health Care Reform – denied to us these past many,
many decades, you take the side of the Industrial/Health/Insurance/Complex,
and constantly pursue favor from that nastiest of all political parties the
U.S. has ever known – that festering Cancer on Our Body Politic that has
brought all of us to this disastrous precipice – the “Republican” party.

You once said: “…when I’m President, we’re going to make drug and
insurance companies compete for their customers just like every other
buisness in America.” But, the pattern of your actions spell your betrayal
to all of us. What a stupendous, ridiculous “life path” you are on: you
reached the very pinnacle of the Democratic Party – to arrive as President
of the United States, to only begin your apprenticeship in the “Republican”
Party. Congratulations – no one could have foreseen this! And, as these
are your very first steps, in many more thousands to come (to begin to
catch up to Bush and Cheney – your new role models) you have a long
way to go perfecting your Republican, cancerous self: a nightmare, wrapped
in a predation, inside a ruse.

Most sincerely,
Michael R. Sanderson
640 N. San Antonio Road
Los Altos, CA 94022

Citizen Justice:

If there is one thing that the last election and this healthcare fight has proved is that the corporate media are irrelevant. We gotta find a place of national exposure for Dean and if we can’t take the DNC from Obama then how about Governor of Vermont?

the only thing those posts suggest is that he wanted to co-opt the Rubinites. We’re a long way away from knowing whether they’ve really co-opted him.

Unless Obama lifts a finger to protect his deal (he already didn’t in the House), it doesn’t look like that deal was so precious. Just some offensive blocking that worked like a charm.

Yes free health are for all is fair. And so is a flat rate income tax. Every penny of income taxed at the same %.

This had nothing to do with Obama

Not. Buying. It.

Wow, Evelyn Wood, heh?

God forbid the obvious impinges upon your fantasy, I guess.

Sorry – gotta disagree, disagree strongly. Say what you will about the “corporate media”, they are far from irrelevant. They are still catapulting the propaganda, but in this case, it is for obama and not for dur chimpfurher.

Without the msm, the sham “yes we can” man would never be able to pull this off.

You gonna kick his ass too my brother”

Former DNC Chair Howard Dean strongly endorsed on Wednesday the Senate’s newest incarnation of health care legislation, declaring that it met the most fundamental definitions of reform.

In an interview with the Huffington Post, Dean acknowledged that he had problems with some of the emerging proposals in the Senate. But legislation, he argued, is neither a seamless process nor a perfect product. And there was much to hail about the compromise that had developed.

me either. it has everything to do with Obama. especially the next prez election.

I’m very happy to see you around the Lake!

No, citizen NorskeFlameThrower….FIRST….. DEFUND THE DNC.

I don’t disagree with your view that Progressives must find a true Progressive to primary Obama…but in order to carry any weight, Progressives must defund the DNC first as well as toss out, at least, Harry, Blanche and Joe…and we need to keep Harry’s kid out of NV office.

DEFUND THE DNC will be on my bumper tomorrow. Below it will say: Progressives Against Obama

Next…we need to start the Progressive Party.

what’s the % you favor?

I think Obama’s email was horrible and shameless.

On the very night that the Senate plays “Let’s Make a Bad Deal,” Obama sends out an email asking for money from people who can’t afford to give it, asking them to trust him to help them, asking them to put all their hopes in him, at the very same time that he’s let them all down.

On health care, Obama has been a total failure.

Did anyone else see this post at Open Left (personally, I no longer read bower’s stuff, but rosenberg has some good points)

Climate betrayal–Africa cooling on Obama after secret ‘Danish Text’ leak

$10B Climate Aid “Not Enough To Buy Us Coffins”

–Lumumba Di-Aping, the Sudanese chairman of the G77 group of developing nations

A secret agreement ((here in Scribd)) being worked on by wealthy nations–leaked to the UK Guardian–would subvert the UN process, and cement inequities between the rich nations that have caused the global warming crisis, and the poor nations that will bear the greatest burden.

In short, it’s strikingly in line with Obama’s pervasive pattern of abandoning his commitment to openness & transparency, turning his back on the little people, and doing secret deals that first and foremost protect the interests of those who’ve caused the catastrophes we face in the first place.

he has let us all down and to ask for a donation when we are dying out here literally, is just plain disgusting.

I see your 2 cents, and raise you two cents of my own.

Disgusting.

My message to Obama on the petition:

I will not vote for you in 2012. Instead I will vote for a protest candidate.

So how do we get Obama to stop listening to Grima Raumtongue?

Has Nancy Pelosi been asked about ping-pong yet? Is she prepared to accept without modification whatever the Senate passes? Is the House ready to cede its legislative prerogative to the Senate?

Will we not see a conference committee?

Next…we need to start the Progressive Party.

Yes, that will teach them us.

Nice letter Neighbor…..
nahant in RWC..

There was nothing there to read carefully. I read Obama’s words and didn’t find much that alarmed me…everything else was bloggers editorializing their own fantasies. I stick to facts, not fantasies.

Remember…starting the Progressive Party was *NEXT* after defunding the DNC in my post.

oh, yes – absolute disaster for developing countries but also Cap and trade, and it’s connection to Goldfilled Saks and new fangled multi trillion derivatives.

Copenhagen climate change talks must fail, says top scientist (Hansen)
http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2009/dec/02/copenhagen-climate-change-james-hansen

That fundraising solicitation speaks to the cluelessness of Obama and the Democratic Party powers that be. Utter cluelessness.

I will not vote for you in 2012. Instead I will vote for a protest candidate.

Once again, that will teach them us. Almost as much as voting for Nader in 2000 did.

My note on the petition:

Mr. Obama, you’ve made me ashamed that I voted for you.

suggest you start matching actions to the words, – an wholly impossible task.

Or it speaks to how clueless they think the American people are, which just makes them total assholes, imo.

You stick to only that which serves your pre-determined and unchangeable world-views and then label those as “facts”

The good news is that folks like you are irrelevant anyhow – real change needs to ignore your kind. We can expose you to information and ideas, but we must be more than willing to happily leave you in la-la-land.

obama’s track record as a corporate shill is clear and objectively demonstratable. Most people will not accept that it is all someone else’s fault. We can only carry the message to as many as possible and let those that have had enough join us.

You can join us too, when you are ready – but in the meantime, please don’t be so condescending as to annoint yourself the “decider” of facts.

Signed, with comments attached.

Woman Who Invented Credit Default Swaps is One of the Key Architects of Carbon Derivatives, Which Would Be at the Very CENTER of Cap and Trade.

“So – while CDS might be a particularly dangerous type of “weapon of mass destruction” (in Warren Buffet’s words), the new carbon derivatives may very well become the new form of looting on the public’s dime. If the government allows massive carbon derivatives trading with as little oversight as over the CDS market, taxpayers will end up spending many trillions bailing out the giant banks and propping up the economy when the carbon market bubble bursts.”

http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2009/12/woman-who-invented-credit-default-swaps.html

Don’t blame nader for that stolen election. And I will not accept the “but is should not have been so close as to be stealable” argument.

What you are saying is just another version of the “get over it” lie that we were spoon fed by the mainstream media.

2004 was stolen as well, not nader’s fault either.

Obama wants ping pong. He planned to scrap the entire house bill anyway. Why fight for something that is getting thrown out.

folks like you are irrelevant anyhow – real change needs to ignore your kind.

what a fucking crock of shit

signed, but couldn’t give to the cause. Sorry, tough time right now.

IMO it says that O & Crew are still in business as usual mode. Meanwhile, 40,000 people die every year from lack of healthcare. Regular people are watching this travesty with slack-jawed disbelief.

Sorry, buddy, but creating a coalition for change does not need folks that will not or are not ready to join.

We don’t have to bat 1.000 – you obviously are ignorant on how public opinion changes. It is not an all-or-nothing affair.

To those that are ready to commit to seeking meaningful change, the naysayers are truly irrelevant.

Yes, I blame Nader and everyone who bought into the “not a dimes worth of difference” nonsense.
Worse, after enduring 8 long ruinous years of Bush/Cheney and Co. that tripe is being spewed again.

Why are we not allowed to call O on the phone and tell him that he’s a son of a bitch? :)

You think the House bill never had much of a chance?

So Obama went up to the Senate on Sunday, senators on all sides did little kabuki dance for a day or two, and…

Obama really screwed us all over on this one.

You, personally, can blame them all you want – BUT IT IS STILL A LIE! and you need to be called on it.

BULL!

buddy this

HOPENHAGEN

Let’s not forget that climate change will severely affect health!

you have given me a GREAT IDEA! We do need to find ways to build bridges between progressives and tea-baggers!

They question obama’s place of birth and we can question the species of his mother!!!!!

An absolutely brilliant compromise!

Meanwhile, 40,000 people die every year from lack of healthcare.

Very much to agree with you, I’d like to point out that studies show the number of people who die every year from lack of healthcare is a little over 40,000.

I hope Obama’s conscience is bothering him.

Britain Unveils Whopping Tax On Bank Bonuses; U.S. Windfall Tax Proposal Going Nowhere

British bankers are going bonkers today after the UK government announced that it wouldn’t stand idly by as they showered themselves with obscene bonuses made possible by last year’s massive infusion of government money.

Alistair Darling, the U.K.’s Chancellor of the Exchequer — sort of like a Treasury Secretary, but with more pluck — announced today that he will impose an immediate, one-time 50-percent tax on bonuses of more than 25,000 pounds (about $40,800). That’s on top of regular income taxes.

The New York Times calls it “the most direct attack on bonuses anywhere in the world.”

Across the pond, however — where the Wall Street titans whose companies were saved from dissolution by an infusion of hundreds of billions of taxpayer dollars are about to reward themselves with a good chunk of that money in the form of year-end bonuses — no such action is in the offing.

Looks like the pricks ARE going to get away with helping themsleves to the “People’s” Money And get away with it Scott free… Fucking Disgusting our Government doesn’t have the Balls to take the Pricks to the shed and beat the money out of them!

We have a great time here at the Lake disagreeing with each other from time to time but we do not call people liars. It’s rude.

Given Obama’s trajectory and mindset, those Bush years may before long seem like sweet memories! Nixon offered up better Health Care than Obama!

Last resort of a scoundrel… Because you can’t refute the statement that a real progressive movement does not need 100% approval from you or anyone else, you resort to this.

Kind of reminds me of the way the wackos guests self-implode on rachel’s show. Did you see last night?

Don’t count on it – those that have sold out bundle their conscious in with the deal.

Signed.

Glad you speak for all!

For the record (and check for yourself) – I DID NOT CALL ANYONE A LIAR.

But it is a lie to say that the stolen election of 200 (and 2004) is all Nader’s fault!

Must…not…respond…about…Nader…

What I refute is you runnin off at the mouth telling people “we don’t need your kind”. Who the fuck to you think you are?

Glad that you’re here to enlighten us lesser beings …

What.Raven.Said @ 125

So, 3,000 odd people dying by terrorism in 2002 is cause enough to spend multiple Trillions and destroy 100,000 of lives.

Since then 210,000 died from Insurance terrorism, way cool (keep it under $900.000) Obama!

ouch. What should we do? Throw Rocks?

Put 10 on that if Blanche goes with the Rethugs she will be out in 2010. Want to place a bet?

I do not speak for everyone. I do have the right to an independent opinion and you need to calm down.

Well he’ll have to do a lot of arm-twisting in the Senate to make your and FDL’s PhRMA theory true…so far, there have been zero reports of that. Obama negotiated a short-term PR deal with PhRMA (that he won hands down) – he didn’t negotiate a long-term legislative deal with them because he knows that’s not in his power and he’s happy to see Congress break the deal like he expected.

Hi Leen. Hope you’re well. Doing some additional reporting today on this and Reid’s folks are really going out of their way to tell reporters “the public option’s not dead. It’s alive! blah blah. Don’t believe news reports that we dropped it.”

But Feingold, as I indicated at the end of my report last night, said Reid’s not being entirely forthcoming. His statement pretty much sums up where things stand, which I am sure you’ve seen already:

“While I appreciate the willingness of all parties to engage in good-faith discussions, I do not support proposals that would replace the public option in the bill with a purely private approach,” Feingold said. “We need to have some competition for the insurance industry to keep rates down and save taxpayer dollars. I will base my vote on the bill on the entirety of what is in the bill, and whether I think the bill is good for Wisconsin.”

I always favor holding one’s breath until O changes.

Simple, objective, verifiable fact – going forward with progressive change does not demand that every person in the nation (or on these boards) agrees.

In fact, implying that it does guarantee’s failure.

Express your opinions, I will respect them, but I will also not let the naysayers stop me (and others) for advocating what needs to be done to see real change.

Join us when you are ready to stop with the tantrums.

He/she’s apparently not your kind, and good for him/her. Shows great sensibility!

Saw yer heads up about fuckno dissing folks. Seems to be a habit after we leave a thread for him/her to start that shit. Called him/her on it once a few weeks ago but apparently went in one ear and out the other. S/he attained troll status long ago far as I’m concerned.

I called no one a liar, but you are one by saying I did.

Everyone is welcome to their opinion of 2000 (and 2004), but I will not let the lie stand that it was Nader’s fault.

It is a crime to steal an election, no matter how close. The closeness did not give the repugs a blank check to do so.

If our political institutions failed us in 2000, it was not the distant third-party’s fault.

Reid’s not being entirely forthcoming.

Shocking.

Have you ever read Article II of the Constitution?

Thank goodness you’re not being sanctimonious …

A few (minority here) seem to agree, but it seems like they are doing more than holding their breath. They are actually sitting on their thumbs – OUCH!

Hey – its their choice, but it doesn’t mean that progressives can’t work for real change.

Meanwhile, 40,000 people die every year from lack of healthcare.

it’s worse than that. much much worse.

almost 45,000 (looking only at adults under 65) from lack of health insurance (not healthcare). we don’t know how many die due to being underinsured (another reason for lack of healthcare).

here’s the paper:

http://pnhp.org/excessdeaths/health-insurance-and-mortality-in-US-adults.pdf

Citizen justice:

Not one word about Nader, Citizen, that sociopathic narcissist has a spot reserved in the bottom of Dante’s hell.

these two punks need to mate

I know. What’s amazing to me is really how his office is going above and beyond to try and change what the reality is.

citizen my dying ass

apparently you have not been following the ‘sidebar’ here and have no idea what you are suggesting.

Jane,

I signed the petition and I really appreciate your concise and informative coverage, but honestly what is OUR game plan? Obama and the Moderates are rudderless and disorganized, the only players here with their sh*t together is: the republicans (they’re voting no – pretty simple plan), the insurance industry (give us handouts or nothing should pass), and the progressives.

If progressives don’t get our house in order and make some unified demands quickly, we’re going to go from worse to horrific on HCR. What do we want out of this “reform” honestly? We need to figure that out, whip our members together to push it ASAP, and the most important point is having the will to walk away if we don’t get what we want.

Just because everybody else is reeling, doesn’t mean it excuses it for us. The whole reason the PO was alive this long was the unity and direction progressives showed in the house while everyone else ran around like headless chickens.

We need more than a petition, we need a plan with a set of expectations. And if those expectations are not met, we HAVE to be willing to kill this bill and hand our party and Obama a well-deserved ass whoopin’. I don’t see how else to get what we want surrounded by all these sharks in the water.

C’mon Jane, we need you to help us pull it together. You start and we’ll get your back.

Thanks for that. And again I should have said health insurance not healthcare. I’m having a difficult time letting go of my wish for healthcare reform.

Last resort of…

Forgot in my earlier post to send a note of thanks to you, Jane.

We may have disagreed in the past, and may do so in the future, but I can’t think of a single person that I respect more than I’ve grown to respect you. Don’t know how you manage to keep that fire burning, but it’s damned impressive.

We may end up with a shitty bill despite your efforts, but you’re still ready to move to the next battle as evidenced by your posts recently. Again, don’t know where that fire comes from, but I sure am impressed as to how you keep it burning. Thanks for all you’ve done, and keep on giving ‘em hell Jane.

Be careful what you wish for … that’s how Glenn Beck came into being …

We have a great time here at the Lake disagreeing with each other from time to time but we do not call people liars. It’s rude.

Does this mean I’m forgiven for disagreeing with Jane a couple of weeks ago. I remember you were pretty upset about it. Sorry.

Think again – you and your cohorts are the irrelevant ones. I’m speaking of the people who bought into some Hillary delusion that they still can’t give up, or more likely worked their brains out for Obama to the point that they self-deluded themselves over who he was, and most of you gave up on him within hours of his election. All those people are irrelevant because there aren’t enough of you in the real world.

Instead, people like me are the ones who hold the cards. I’m very liberal, more than at least 95% of voters, but I’m sticking with Obama – for now. But I will be quite willing to abandon him if any number of developments occur – if Health Care reform doesn’t help enough people, if the Afghan withdrawal is too slow, if he doesn’t do enough on jobs – then he’ll lose my vote, and that’s going to matter. He doesn’t care about losing your vote because there aren’t enough of you doctrinaires with your unrealistic impossible hopes for him.

That seems to work well for the Republicans. He’s borrowing their strategy.

Citizen justice:

Enough, if you can’t believe your own eyes or the shared experience of all of us that were alive and watchin in November of 2000 then just take your dilusions somewhere else but sayin over and over again that somethin that happened in front of a few hundred million people didn’t really happen makes a fool out of you…no, better still a lunatic. And if you want to find out what workin’ for a Moonie operation is like, go work directly for Ralph.

Suggestion; Raven, Twain, SDragon, – how about we just ignore each other, henceforth?

btw, what makes me a troll?

if dissing folks is what earns one troll status, there’s a lot of that nowadays. what exactly did fuckno write that justifies the troll label?

Check out FDL’s Blue America.

The number of candidates will grow! Definitely an excellent direction.

It was friendly disagreement and I didn’t mind. Just saying what I think at the only place I really can and that’s a blessing.

re wishes. me too.

Sure, I can even forgive you for agreeing with numbnuts last night

We all need to take a deep breath — and not turn on each other.
Tensions are running high, and while we don’t/didn’t all have the same expectations, we don’t know for sure what the final Senate proposal is yet. We are reacting to reports.

Responding to Nahant at 117
Guess those Brits can quit if they don’t get their big bonuses . . . they can always come to the U.S. where we eagerly reward competence. We tell the banksters . . . don’t quit . . . give us some MORE incompetence and we’ll give you a bigger bonus!

And I’ll say it again, it doesn’t matter what is in it, even single payer and people will bitch.

Maybe we can all take a step back. I’ve had my disagreements with several of you, but we’re really thinking in similar directions on issues overall. The debates over the subtle differences in positions or over different strategies to deal with what we’re seeing going on are good.

Just like the financial crisis, the pessimists in this debate have been right all along. We were screaming that the PO was going to be erased or dissected in to nothingness and that’s exactly what happened. Even this supposed expansion of Medicare is reportedly full of holes. It will have to be purchased in any case which means that poor folks 55-64 will have to apply for subsidies that, as time goes by are sure to be reduced in relation to the premiums. And it will set up another layer of bureaucracy and hassle for people to deal with. And don’t get me talking about the continual sell out to Big Pharma. And what about everybody under 55?

When is the afterglow from election night ever going to fade with you Obamabots?

Mighty nice of you to proclaim that you represent 95 percent of whomever…

LOL

Too bad the numbers don’t look that way here.

Stick with obama – the point is, those that will not stick with him DO NOT CARE IN THE LEAST.

And we will eventually show you that you don’t represent 95 percent of progressives.

I honestly didn’t read into what was written the same thing you did. Thanks for forgiving me =D

Excellent point, Elliott !

And many of those reports are being skewered by the Right, to split us apart.

asserted without evidence.

thanks, good advice. will take a break now.

later friends…

Citizen Raven:

Yo Brother Freebird, let me and Brother Dragonman deal with these pathetic livin’ room revolutionaries…your voice is important around here so don’t waste it on [edited] hassles with Stalinists in drag.

[modnote: that is a word that is offensive, and yes I know you are using it in a different way but please, find a better one.]

I agree. Frustrating, but for the greater good of all concerned.

see #156

4 Q’s, 4 Yes’.

NEXT!

why not, the dogs need a walk anyway

I challenge anyone to read the post you are refering to, that you deliberately and repeatedly misrepresent. Why you do so is none of my business.

Saying we are locked into a 2-party system that gives progressives nothing more than lip-service (while constantly asking them for cash) is a lie.

The election of 2000 can be demonstrated to be a stolen election. The rest of the world acknowledges this.

It was not Nader who stole it – blame whomever you like, even if you have to tell lies to do it.

First Lie: Bush “won”

Second Lie: Nader make it close, so it was HIS fault the election was stolen

Third Lie: There was nothing anyone could do after the election was stolen, so get over it (and blame Ralph Nader)

“Saw yer heads up about fuckno dissing folks. Seems to be a habit after we leave a thread for him/her to start that shit. Called him/her on it once a few weeks ago but apparently went in one ear and out the other. S/he attained troll status long ago far as I’m concerned.”

How about you link to that thread, where I started dissing without your presence? http://fdlaction.firedoglake.com/2009/12/09/thanks-blanche-lincoln/

You made a comment at 178, I replied @ 179 but you were already gone because you were shown to be dissembling. No Problem.

My point exactly – we do not have to agree.

And if meaningful change means some don’t agree to join, choosing to stick with obama/rahm, so be it.

To those that are willing to work for change – those folks should not matter.

I’ll await your take on this medicare opt- in deal, once details are known !

Yes.

spot on – but, other than share ideas with them (and perhaps a few reasonably polite pointed remarks) we can let them be obamabots.

If we are going to see meaningful change, they cannot hold us back.

LOL !!!

Norske is firing on all cylinders, the blog is safe on his watch.

It goes back a ways. Dissing other commenters is not why I consider him/her as such.

I look forward to the appointments to the Supreme Court that your new party gets.

Agree with you on almost all of that. Except you’re going to have to explain why any of that is Obama’s fault and not Nelson, Lieberman, Landrieu, etc…

Ms. Hamsher,

I love the work you do here, and have donated to candidates you have spotlighted here. You have inspired me to do activism for a public option.

However, a petition at this point won’t do much good, unless you seek to build a mailing list from it.

I’ve signed so many petitions I now get spam emails from things I never supported, because the petitioners sell my email off to other progressive groups.

I have called my elected reps — one in particular I’ve called so many times that he probably has me on a list – and emailed them, etc. But I just don’t see any tangible effect coming out of it. Nowadays they see my name or number, and they just put another tick in the box marked “Pro-public Option; Angry” and that’s it?

How do we fight this? How do we keep from getting rolled, over and over again?

later selise.

I should take a break too. Hope everyone has a great day. Take care all.

Petrocelli @ 183

Norske’s your daddy, and you guys are just coming up as pathetic hypocrites decrying meanness and lack of civility everywhere and applauding it when daddy does it.

John Dean had a name for that kind of personality…

Because we are locked into your 2-party system where progressives serve no role other than cash cow and are expected to toe-the-party-line even when they are abused.

Mighty nice of yeah – but if we continue to get the kind of appointments you seem to be snarkily refering to, it will be because of folks like you that continue to undermine real change.

But thanks for being polite with your less-than-honest rhetoric.

I didn’t say I represented anyone, I said I’m more liberal than 95% of voters, which puts me right at the margin to decide if Democratic candidates end up like Obama in the WH or like Gore still pissed off at Nader.

You and most people here represent the most liberal 1% of the most liberal 1%. God love you all, I enjoy your opinions, agree with many of them, and always prefer hearing them to conservative or moderate ideas. But don’t delude yourselves that you have much power in national elections if you’re so easily willing to give up.

That is the $64,000 question.

i think daily kos has the real angle on this story in terms of how it is demoralizing the base and will make for an ugly 2010.

I say let these Blue Dogs lose, let them lose big.

More intentional disassembling? Gratefully, most progressive think for yourself and are not likely to take your dishonest and skewed restatements of what others say seriously.

Root for obama and proclaim you are a liberal/progressive god if you like.

Evidently, the obamabots did not see the 1000+ comment thread at kos taking obama to task.

Say what you like here, obama fans, but if he is losing kos – things are getting bad for him.

It wasn’t long ago you would be endlessly flamed or outright banned there for even questioning our new president.

a linky is always helpful, I for one tend to avoid the Orange Satan since way back when..

I am being honest. I am old old old and have seen what can be done and what is impossible. I am outraged at most of the things Obama has done but I will not turn the Democratic Party over to those who have already harmed it. A third party is not possible right now anyway – you can start working on it but how long will it take to do any good? Certainly not before the 2012 election. We need to work with what we have – dedicated progressives who have constantly hammered Obama about his policies.

Does anyone really think dailykos is a leading progressive/liberal blog? It is not, but people are starting to see the light there.

Jane and even more here have seen it.

Whistle past the graveyard at your own peril.

time to restart visiting Dkos? Well, perhaps a movement can be born?!

And if meaningful change means some don’t agree to join, choosing to stick with obama/rahm, so be it.

Actually, I think it’s important to be judicious in our opposition to Obama if progressive candidates are going to win elections.

On health care, Obama’s way off. And we might not like some of this other policies. But we have to represent progressives values to all Americans, not just preach to the choir.

See my Progressive Memo: Focus on Winning Elections.

Sorry, the “I am old old old” line doesn’t work – I have likely seen most of what you have seen. Pretending to be the elder-statesman is a pretty hollow trick.

Don’t turn if that is your choice, but don’t expect your proclaimations to be good reasons for others to stay on the titanic.

Frustrating, but for the greater good of all concerned.

Indeed!

OK, enough of this BS. Everything you characters are crying about- Ralph warned you about a LONG,LONG time ago. But you never seem to learn.

I encourage all you Nader disparagers out there to go tohttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_United_States_presidential_candidates,_2008

Go there, read it and weep. His positions will parallel yours almost exactly. He was calling Washington DC “corporate occupied territory” back when most Dems considered such talk “a little too strident.” Many of you may owe your life or the lives of loved ones to the National Traffic and Motor Vehicles Safety Act (1966) that Ralph guided to passage.

Nader has always been for Medicare for All and HAS NEVER WAVERED. He has always supported federal financing for election campaigns.
Nader as President would KNOW how to use the bully pulpit. He WOULD VETO conservative legislation. He would NOT be a corporate lapdog. He has spent his entire life fighting them.

Ralph Nader has done more for the public good than any of us could do in 20 lifetimes.
Dreaming wishfully of a Progressive utopia under Gore is as ridiculous as dreaming for a Progressive Age of Change under Obama was.

Nader tried to persuade the Democrats but they were too busy batting their eyelashes at the corporate power structure to listen.

Stop spitting on the one individual who tried to tell you the truth.

This is a pretty fair review of the deal. I recommend it.
http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2009/12/9/812493/-The-New-Compromise:-The-Good,-the-Bad,-and-the-Murky

I rarely read the threads at kos, but understand that the topics posted there are newsworthy. He totally took down obama for shamelessly using a sell-out on healthcare as an excuse to ask poor people to donate five dollars.

When I saw that, had to read the thread – now 1,000+ and growing. Most people are agreeing with him (just like most here agree with jane).

I am trying to be respectful of people here that want to disagree, but I will not give them a free pass on less-than-honest rhetoric.

Twain, sorry for all the unintended grief, let me just note that your party used to be a good one based on any objective measure. You did not have to compare it to the opposition to know it was the working peoples, good government, civil liberties party. It’s not been that party ever since the DLC took over. They are the ones who’ve already harmed it! It’s republican light and hard core anti labor.

Don’t worry YSD, I did it for you.

You are truly insulting. By the way, I am a female. And listened to FDR’s speeches – are you that old? Worked actively in politics for over 30 years. I have seen a few things and by all means, do whatever you want to.

So do tell – where is he “spot on”?

The endless wars and escalating conflicts? Wall street bail out? Holding dur chimpfurher’s criminal cabal accountable? Secret deals selling out developing nations on global warming? Job creation? The deficit? A likely attack on Social Security? Government spying? Torture? Addressing FISA?

Please enlighten me.

Ranting is not going to win elections. It’s that simple.

Insulting is telling people you are so old that you are right and they must be wrong.

Especially on an anonymous comment board.

I choose not to divulge any personal information here and certainly would not use my age to try and gain a bogus “advantage” in an exchange of ideas.

And save your faux outrage – you are using the last name of a prominent MALE write and it is common convention in English to use male pronounds when gender is not clear.

And if I had used a female pronoun, you would have jumped on me for that.

But this type of rhetoric is what I would expect from someone that tries to dismiss others because they are so very much older…

1) First Single Payer was off the table, and Public Option was on.
2) Then Public Option was unrobusted, repeatedly.
3) Now, we have something in The Senate, which usually prevails over House, per history.

Given all we’ve watched, learnt from, seen and discussed in here at FDL and countless places about Obama, HCR, Status Quo I think there’s PLENTY OF ROOM TO SUGGEST WE ARE BEING FUCKED YET AGAIN AND DEEPER!

If ANYONE in here has the balls, gall and timidity to suggest we negative minded folks can’t project and bitch about what went to the CBO last night, and share our fear that Senate/House debate will be sidestepped, for a quick signing of Senate Version . . . yer just not living in the same world as we are, or I am.

Do we have a final answer?

Do we have enough proof of past actions to substantiate our fear and negativity?

FUCK YEAH!!!

I disagree with what Raven said about bitching at single payer cuz it’s such a broad brush as to seem to be just mean spirited and hateful in its way, but I’ll echo his meme in that you people in here would bitch at one another over the most INANE shit possible.

I guess I wouldn’t want it any other way . . . *G* I mean, we ALL know the toilet paper rolls OVER and down, not from under. How could we all be so disparate on everything else aside from how to wipe our asses?

Someone’s gotta say it. Trying to keep my blood pressure down today : )

Who’s ranting – or is that just another rhetoric devise for any idea you don’t agree with?

I’d call it venting, and often times movements are moved along that way.

“I am outraged at most of the things Obama has done but I will not turn the Democratic Party over to those who have already harmed it.”

I liked that the most, but am with you on your whole comment . . . nicely said, Ma’am.

Citizen justice:

Ok Citizen, you get the full Viking…

1. Don’t put up strawmen when you are fightin’ with me or Bother Raven or the Dragonman, none of us have said one word about the 2-party system. All of us have been tryin’ to decontaminate the discussion here from the toxic air of Ralph Nader.
2. Had Ralph Nader not lied when he said to potential donors that he would not actively run in states that were competitive between Gore and Junior Caligula and had he restated that as late as October in Florida, Florida would NOT have been close enough to steal.
3. It WAS Ralph Nader who facilitated the stealing of the election in Florida and he did nothing in the run up to the election or at anytime after to say that it was a mistake to double cross his own constituent base and actively run in Florida instead of being a kingmaker and endorsing Gore in Florida in October. He is a liar and a narcissist by these actions alone.
4. Arguin’ that it was Gore’s fault for not fightin’ for the recount harder after Bush and Nader had stolen the thing in Florida is indeed the last argument of a thief and a liar.

So don’t you dare try and push some revisionist lie on the good folks here at FDL and then try and attack those who have the balls to call you on your Naderite lunacy. Citizen Southern Dragon and Brother Raven are out of your league and unless you want to find yourself reduced to wearin open-toed sandals so you can breath as you slink away from the fight, take the lies and the lunatic politics elsewhere…jest sayin’!

The endless wars and escalating conflicts.

Blame Bush for starting them and conducting them so badly. The American people are correct to think that Obama wants to create the conditions in Afghanistan that will allow him to withdraw our military presence from the region.

Wall street bail out.

Blame Bush for TARP bullshit. Did you see the news that Obama is taking $200 billion away from TARP for job creation?

Opposing Obama on things where the American people are more than 50% on his side and where, frankly, I think he’s going in the right direction, is just not a winning strategy.

I like what you say and am grateful you feel confident enough to say it like you feel it.

Thanks – real change is going to start with people like you, not the naysayers.

profit taking. Most of the hedgefunds use pretextual bad news as an excuse to take profits. Nothing to do with the real world.

Who’s ranting – or is that just another rhetoric devise for any idea you don’t agree with?

No. It was a serious statement about the value of venting or ranting or whatever you call it. It just won’t help us help progressive candidates get elected.

You need a lesson in manners. I was not using my age for any reason except that I had “been there, done that.” I can use any damn name I want to and it’s none of your business. Is your real name justice? I doubt it.

Mission Accomplished: The Mandatory Insurance Profitability & Pseudo Health Care Reform Act of 2010

Your signature on any health care reform legislation that omits a strong public option to regulate obscene insurance corporation abuses through real competition to control costs and expand access will be the crowning achievement of your squandered first year in office.

You may not care what happens to the people of this country who need to be protected from the same predatory interests that destroyed the Constitution, financial system and real economy over the past nine years, but progressive and independent voters do care. And we won’t tolerate this sellout to corporate lobby interests again.

The bad news is YOU’VE BEEN PLAYED. This middle way of appeasing republicans who are absolutely committed to your failure regardless of what it costs the nation is an unconscionable betrayal of your oath of office.

We’ve known who they are ever since Richard Nixon resigned the presidency in disgrace, and Gerald Ford declared — Our long national nightmare is now over. Tell that to Dick Cheney & Donald Rumsfeld in 2000 when they plotted the invasion of Iraq nearly a year before 9/11.

Now that legislation is moving through congress to criminalize being uninsured in America with your administration’s complicity, we know who you are.

Good night, and good luck to you in 2010 & 2012.

I wouldn’t choose to continue to ride with the folks that are driving the democratic party off a cliff, but perhaps it is just my sense of self-preservation holding me back.

In the meantime, it is important to acknowledge that ALL political movements start by folks that are ready for change and that are willing to ignore the naysayers.

Most people in this thread seem to be ready or are at least open to a dialog. To those that aren’t fine – very little presented here is going to be viewed as a compelling case to continue supporting obama.

Even the hard-core obama fans at kos are starting to have this dialog. To each his/her own – but the door to change will always be open. Please join us when you are ready.

Yer painting specific inferentials on her broad brush general picture . . . bad form, and bad policy, IMHO.

Pissed at Obama? SURE!
Not vote, stay home in ’10? NO!
Vote for useless 3rd party and hand it to GOP loons? FUCK NO!

Work from within, know it takes a lot of time, staff and money, and you don’t have a national voice in the MSM.

Hard work. But that’s how you BEGIN to find a 3rd Party with clout . . . . it won’t happen in ’10.

Likely not in MY lifetime . . . and I ‘spect to see and vote in about 4 more general elections counting ’12.

But we let 30 or 40 years go by and NOT participate, most did, and look where that got us?

So now, we’re back in the game, and it will take time to claw back to center. And we do it for the future, cuz we know it’s likely not gonna happen in OUR lifetime, for us over 50+ . . . but we do it, and we DON’T stay home and let it happen WITHOUT us. Fail or win, it don’t happen WITHOUT us being engaged, fully, while we hold jobs, relaitonships, hobbies, and more.

It’s called responsibility, and the general lack of it led us to let others decide what our freedoms and rights are.

yeah, i signed it.

“i’m sick of you and your kids’ private schools and your wife’s endless parade of expensive dresses and your pure-bred dog and your stupid parties and “events”. i’m sick of you being on the wrong side of the class war and i’m sick of feeling like the little match girl with my nose pressed up against the window of your glittering “life”.”

well, stick around, fairness, foresight and justice are always in demand.

Sorry – obama does not control nor own what bush did, but his is a “big man” now and the stuff that is happening on his watch he is responsible for.

THERE ARE NOW MORE TROOPS IN THE MIDDLE EAST THAN UNDER DUR CHIMPFUHRER!

And TARP? Just what has obama done to (as he repeatedly said during debates and campaign) to make sure it helps “main street” and not wall street.

And I see your statement that “more than 50 percent” support obama has no link – not surprising BECAUSE IT IS NOT TRUE ON THESE ISSUES!

No, it was dishonest rhetoric – as if somehow a dialog before the election cycle even begins is undermining said election. Nice trick though.

a picture of nike shoes crossed out in red, caption; just say no!

I will not accept a lesson in manners from someone that repeatedly states, “BUT I AM OLDER AND MUST KNOW MORE” on an anonymous forum.

Why is everything a trick or a lie to you? We don’t deal like that here at the Lake. If you dislike us so much, why are you here?

You are now treading on ground that is not only rude, but ignorant and defensive and shallow minded as that of the 23% Creationist/WingNut/Batshit Crazed Teabaggin Libertarian Aryan Nazi’s.

I personally request that you refrain from attacking Twain or any one else as you are doing so.

it’s not moral, it’s not nice, it’s not of the quality of disagreements here at FDL, even if it’s NOT my blog.

Citizen GDC707:

Enough Naderite bullshit, you are talkin to someone who is old enough to remember Nader’s work on the auto industry and his first forays into organizin’ the PIRGs and also worked for a couple a PIRGs and clones like Cleanwater Action and COACT. Ralph Nader’s postive contributions to democracy and a more democratic society ended with the PIRGs, everything since then has been Stalinist tactics to splinter and destroy the democratic left and his tactics in 2000 where to get the fascists elected so that through some kinda thermadore effect, he would lead a grand leftwing reaction to Bush and the Bush wars. Ralph Nader has NO concept of service to people or a democratic politics and he has absolutely no empathy to the suffering of the people even of those few who support him.

I’ve heard bowel functions described in that manner.

This post is more typical of the comments on this thread than those saying we need to mindlessly support dems and obama. It is also more typical of the setiment on the 1,000 plus and growing thread on the topic at kos.

Perhaps that is why some are so dismissive – who would have thunk that health care reform would be their “waterloo”, but not as the repugs predicted – progressive and younger voters are not going to shut up and accept being sold out AGAIN.

40 percent of dems say they will stay home and not vote (google it). This is a brewing crisis that you ignore at your own peril.

If the dems and obama choose to do nothing about it – that’s on them.

Remain a loyal obamabot if you wish – jane and the majority in this thread have had enough.

he, unfortunate turn of phrase.

How about you just accept lessons from all people who know more than you, since that is practically everyone. Better change out of those pajamas.

Jane Hamsher is no longer newsworthy !

Ha! That’s NOT my opinion but apparently the opinions of the mods on Democratic Underground. I posted a link to this commentary on DU in the Breaking News section about an hour after Jane posted it. DU removed it from the Breaking News Section and placed it elsewhere (where it pretty much disappeared) because apparently only MSNBC and CNN think Ms Hamsher’s comments and positions are newsworthy these days.

Is DU reinventing itself as a left wing Pajamas Media these days?

THERE ARE NOW MORE TROOPS IN THE MIDDLE EAST THAN UNDER DUR CHIMPFUHRER!

It’s not how many troops are there, but what they’re doing there that matters. If you need to get pissed off about something Obama’s doing, get pissed off at his approving more predator drone attacking into Pakistan.

Who’s ranting – or is that just another rhetoric devise for any idea you don’t agree with?

President Obama to propose $200 billion for jobs creation (Dec 7, 2009), money coming out of tarp for jobs.

I really don’t want to descend into defending Obama here.

My point is not that I disagree with you, but you have to think critically about issues (i.e. not just what you think about them), if you’re going to convince other people to vote for progressive candidates.

The interesting thing is the Rassmussen listing T-baggers beating the Reps. by a substantial margin!

And it is YOU that are letting others decide our future by saying we need to blindly accept a corporate sell-out.

Interesting slight-of-hand that is not likely to sway many here. So who is really irresponsible – the folks willing to stand up for change or the folks that repeatedly eat a sh!t sandwich and say, “but that was all the democrats offered me!”

[Modnote: Please discuss ideas and not make it personal.]

DO NOT attempt to use me as any part of your disagreements with others in here.

You can agree or disagree with my comments.

You don’t get to use me to bolster your issues with others, or naysayers.

I don’t see it as black and white as you do, it’s grey.

Issue by issue.
Blog by blog.
Post by post.
Comment by comment.

And yes, I guess the one’s yer having issues with today (everyone?) are those I would side with. Because I’ve known of them longer, and have shared disagreements and agreements with them all, and am bonded to them.

Yer not.

I don’t know more – I know different things. Some of which you could use.

Have you ever studied rhetoric?

You are now speaking for Jane? !

practically everyone is nothing to recommend anything. Bush won against Kerry.

Thanks for the warning – I will stay away from your blog. Last tactic of scoundrels…

Really? You want to argue over whether or not I was using a rhetorical trick to dazzle you into silence?

Dude or whatever you are, if I were using a rhetorical fallacy to shut you up, A) you wouldn’t have known it, and B) you’d be done talking.

Twain’s right. You’re rude, argumentative (even when there’s no need to argue), and defensive to the point of childishness.

That’s the spirit!

You are in the vast minority of opinions here, but keep telling yourself you “know more”.

That is what drove dur chimpfurher too – everything from the “gut” without any real rational, reason, or evidence. Thanks!

Read title of thread

I’m two minded of your comment and thoughts there, hoss.

I’m WITH you on who to blame, it’s Bush, it’s big biz, 1%, oligarch and its minions.

But Obama has caved over and over, deeper and deeper.

Despite what you and MikeSong share, which I happen to value greatly BTW, both of you, I’m falling greatly skeptical against Obama on all counts and fronts . . . but then, I acknowledge he’s likely been drawn and quartered by the 1%, fears for his life and that of his family, and is encumbered by an INCREDIBLY deep, layered, and broad status quo that has little regard for the masses and the needs of a middle class they seem to be intent on destroying.

Grey, to me, all of it, still.

And thanks for your voice, always a pleasure to consider even when I outrightly disagree with an issue or a point you raise.

I just like the way present yourself when out front of in defense . . . there’s a moral certitude to it that’s humanly very acceptable. As in, ‘you were raised good’ . . . *G*

Thanks for the condescending bull – but you are the “decider”, right?

Enjoy your sh!t sandwich and continue telling us that eating it is being responsible!

Seeing the mug of Obama really riles me. I don’t know when in this country we elevated our elected officials, especially the presidency, into some exhalted plane.

This guy is a simple public servant period. We should stop thinking of these people as belonging to a ruling class. This reverence for the constitution and reverence for the presidency and the president being the most powerful man in the free world is all a bunch of needless subservience to an otherwise ordinary job holder and inanimate papers.

All the press adoration and protocol is really abasing. I hold Obama in complete and utter contempt. I really do. Here is a guy that flitters away people’s well being as though preordained by the gods to dispense favors as he sees fit.

Fuck this low life.

Now we hear that the TARP program will continue to support the Banks with taxpayer money for another year with nary a peep from anyone in Congress. Why is our money continued to be given away to Banks? To what end? Why do are they deserving of this and who the fuck is Obama to be giving other peole’s money away like this?

I think we have to really get ourselves aroused. I mean this general complacency really reveals type of subjugation and servant mentality that is demeaning. We really need to show some degree of dignity. to allow ourselves to be trampled upon like this is just not right.

Have you ever studied rhetoric?

I’ve studied rhetoric.

Rhetoric aside, you have issues you need to work out that have nothing to do with current politics. We really don’t need or care to continue arguing over nothing.

Paging Alexis De Tocqueville, red courtesy telephone, please …

When the federal government is bought and paid for by corporate interests, and the former Fourth Estate cheers on the bribery/extortion/looting, there is no representative democracy in America where voters have a real say in the policies that affect their lives.

please read topic and full thread – I probably have some diverging views with jane, but the words FAIL are in caps, aren’t they!

This really has to be the most dishonest rhetorical devise employed here.

mean spirited and hateful

but you will echo it? WTF?

Thanks for joining and expressing your opinion. There are many opinions here, but some would try to marginilize yours with less-than-honest rhetoric.

I appreciate everyone that will not be intimidated by regulars here. We can disagree, but if you agree with FAIL, we need you to speak up now.

Citizen Knoxville:

Back in the old days (sigh…) we used ta say “don’t feed the trolls, don’t argue with ‘em, don’t speak of ‘em and don’t ever say their names”. In the case of Citizen justice, it is time to use the excorsism of silence. We need your voice, reason and passion in the real world of the struggle for democratic politics and the fight against war and poverty…don’t waste yourself on those who are beyond reason.

WHere is your proof that this bill will raise premiums by that much?

Do you have inside information to the CBO report before it is even complete?

Are you trying to tell me that you’ve boxed yourself into such a tiny little ideological box that you now see a public option as healthcare reform all by itself?

I’ll take the CBO’s word by actual economists over Jane Hamsher any day.

Good luck with that, anger, losers. I hope you all enjoy your endless sniping at the only left-leaning president in your lifetime.

Justice, I’m way on your side of substance! I’ve been dumped on by Twain and Raven and a few others because there is an active herding mentality, a campy loyalty working at FDL. To be expected.

I would love for you to read some Chomsky, not for the content, with which I am almost certain you are familiar, but for the way he structures and conveys his ideas.

Your voice is an important one, stick around.

Thanks for the condescending bull – but you are the “decider”, right?

What was condescending in my comment @ 241?

LOL.

Is this the extent of your rhetorical ability?

ROFL. Laughing. Way. Too. Hard.

It’s starting to hurt. Seriously, stop.

Jane Hamsher has proven herself to be hateful and self-involved.

Signed the petition. Can’t imagine it’ll do much to change Our President into the constitutional scholar/humanist we imagined him to be. I think that ship has sailed.
All I could think to write in the comment space was ” Why did you lie?”. I’m not even that big on rhetorical questions.
Thank you, Jane.

P.S. judging from the comment section we need more and better meds around here. *g*

“WE” – see you are also part of the self-proclaimed “silent minority” here, the few that would flame anyone that doesn’t walk lockstep with 13-D chessman obama, rahm, and bluedogs.

I am just pointing out when a few repeatedly use dishonest rhetoric to hide the fact that most commenters here agree – FAIL!

Real change will demand that BOTH dems and repugs are called on their BS!

You fail to fully capture my points, you label me as an unswerving Obamabot, and then you label Ms. Hamsher as one of you, and me as against you and Mz. Hamsher?

I hereby declare you a troll . . . as you’ve switched, baited, and led others to respond in other to jump when and how it suits your needs and ridicule and insult in the process.

I’m not sure if yer just spoiling for fights on the net or if yer a paid disrupter. In either case, you have soiled your pajama’s.

And that’s something bloggers everywhere just can’t respect.

So is it “responsible” to remain loyal to dems and obama?

If you can tell me what was “condescending bull” in my comment @ 241 (as justice called it @ 255), I’ll agree with you that this justice person is worth handing Chomsky to, much less bothering with nearly as much as I already have.

Excellent advice. Done feeding the troll!

“And it is YOU that are letting others decide our future by saying we need to blindly accept a corporate sell-out.”

I’ve never said that, I don’t believe that, and if you knew my rants on the toobz you’d realize how fucking stupid you just made yerself look.

The rest of your comment is incomprehensible to me.

1) Please stop fucking with Twain, or do so in a nicer way.
2) Yer a troll, and keep proving it in your replies to me.

You now get my full troll treatment.

*setsmousetoSCROLL*

Agreeing with Jon @ 63, the Dorgan amendment is definitely worth supporting, and takes direct aim at the backroom deal that Obama (you know, the guy who mikesong and others think has been too ‘hands off’ on this bill, so the wishful thinking goes…) made with the drugmakers not to allow reimportation of prescription drugs. I applaud Senator Dorgan’s (genuinely “bipartisan”) efforts on this amendment.

So, of course, Democratic Senatorial Campaign Committee Chair, and drug company spokesman, Senator Bob Menendez of New Jersey just spoke out against the Dorgan/Snowe/McCain (and 30 co-sponsors) amendment on the floor. Following which, Byron Dorgan came out and gave a very effective rebuttal, including to Menendez’s bogus concerns about safety (the Dorgan bill, now offered as an amendment, increases the safety of even the status quo domestic drug market).

Dorgan is still waiting for the backroom (read White House) machinations to decide to allow a floor vote on his amendment, hopefully later today. No agreement has yet been reached – but those objecting to a vote are a mystery, because the objections are all being made – and are being allowed to be made – in private. Probably because the primary objector is in the White House, not the Senate…

Note: Just as I finished writing this, Harry Reid came to the floor to recess the Senate for an hour so that the Democrats could adjourn to a caucus meeting to be told about the privately-negotiated “deal” that is being foisted upon them. The Senate will reconvene at 6:15 p.m. for debate only for another hour. And then Reid added quickly that there won’t be any votes after the Senate reconvenes because they “can’t be arranged.”

Ain’t Secret Government grand?

Citizen Raven:

What’s up for Xmas, Brother, any chance ya ken get yer sorry ass down ta Negril the week after Dec 25th…we’ll find space for ya we got 3 Oceanview suits.

That’s right everybody, “study rhetoric and read Chomsky” and then you’ll really know what makes the world go round.

Arrggh, back to Smith Mountain lake!

All voices are important, which is why I posted a link to 42 rhetorical “tricks” to draw attention away from ideas and redirect them – inherently dishonest tactics.

It is just amazing that a few regulars would flame folks here that agree with the title of jane’s post: Obama FAIL (emphasis not mine).

I will continue to present my ideas here in the manner I chose because:

1. Those interested in different ideas can follow what I am saying and can accept/reject them on their merits. I really don’t care because this is an anonymous thread!

2. Those that attempt to undermine a dialog by abusing the 42 falacies identified in my link above are not going to be part of positive change anyhow.

Thanks – even when we disagree, we need to defend an honest dialog and the right to express diagreement.

Have a nice day.

Jane Hamsher has proven herself to be hateful and self-involved.

Wrong on both counts. She sees a larger picture and generally thinks forward in the best ways imaginable.

I’ve disagreed with her more than once, but she’s often proven right and, more importantly, she’s proven that she can take it when people disagree with her publicly and even that she will change her views when she concludes that someone else is right.

Funny how some regular here will flame and dishonestly misrepresent the ideas of others that agree with her post, Obama FAIL.

She and reddhead started the blog and they have opened it up to others, creating a diverse community.

And some want to should down those that agree with Jane – amazing!

Now you speak for bloggers EVERYWHERE!

Just amazing – all of this flaming because some agree with Jane: Obama FAIL

Look, buddy – I AM OLDER THAN YOU and if you call me a HIM, then you are REALLY BAD!!!!!!

“My point is not that I disagree with you, but you have to think critically about issues (i.e. not just what you think about them), if you’re going to convince other people to vote for progressive candidates.”

I guess it’s the ‘think critically’ portion.

Undoubtedly, justice does. Given the same set of facts we are likely to arrive at different conclusions, or invest the conclusions with different emotional intensity.

Dude, it’s the fucking toilet paper, ok?

Take a slight dig once in a while, as good as you give out . . .

Thass all I’m askin . . . *G*

As you know, I’m usually more with ya than agin ya.

Sides, Norske scares the crap outta me!!! *G*

Jane has done more for progressive ideals, especially as it relates to healthcare, than anyone on the net.

But now a few self-appointed “deciders” want to shout down anyone that agrees with the premise of this post, Obama FAIL

Astounding!

I was just suprised.

Citizen Raven:

Smith Mountain Lake? I’m an ignorant midwesterner from the heartland of democracy and anus of progress so tell me more about this Smith Mountain Lake hideout! And we would sure love ta have you and yours down on the beach if you folks could put up with three generations of Norskes and a couple of drooling boyfriends.

Oh, Chomsky is a dirty word in Raven’s rich mind.

Very disappointing. I keep hearing Democrats saying something is better then nothing but not in this case. The medicare buy in is great for the 55 to 64 age group but what about the rest of us? Somebody please tell me how this buy in will end insurance company abuses? Lower premiums for the under 55 age group who have been left out in the cold? The uninsured numbers have been said to be anywhere from 15 to 45 million so tell me how much will this buy in lower those numbers? Now that the insurane companies have dumped the older less profitable age demographic that typically uses more healthcare then they pay for will the insurance companies pay this cost savings on to us in the form of lower premiums or just pad their bottom line even more? I put aside my cynism of politicans and government and believed in Obama’s message of real change finally a politican for the people how disheartening to find out in less then a year that he is no diffrent then any other politican. There is a time to a consenus builder and then there is a time to put your foot down and say this is how it is going to be because it is the right thing to do, Mr. Presient you have failed at this miserably.

Big lake in Virginia, I froze my ass off last year and didn’t catch anything but after the highly successful trips to the OBX and the Emerald Coast I am prepared to simply fish and not catch! Recall that my folk were from Norway as well.

I guess it’s the ‘think critically’ portion.

The phrase ‘think critically’ means to think about other points of view. No one could seriously interpret that as condescending bull.

Count me a skeptic too, but as you might say, I’m a grey skeptic, not a black and white skeptic. I may give up on Obama in a matter of weeks or months, but it will be because of failures in the real world, not because of his failures to meet my immediate fantasies like so many here.

GREAT Update PowWow . . . very detailed info, thanks.

Deal is done, fix is in, and yet more proof we’ve been sold out, CBO results or not.

I think at this point, I’m about 95% certain we’re fucked and all we get is repeal of preexisting condition.

No regulation, no reforms, no competition.

Any Pups wanna wait any longer for the facts?

*smilesswetly*

Not at all, I just think it’s funny when we get reading lists from trolls.

Jane,

I appreciate how much work you have out into the HCR fight, but I fear that it’s over. These petitions are useless, they fall on deaf ears. The game was fixed from the beginning. The President sold us down the river from the get go, and capitulated to Baucus, Grasselly, Snow and the rest. Congress is owned by the insurance & health care industries. As for me, I’m finished with the Dems & Obama once and for all. The Dems sell out and burn us every time. from FISA to financial reform to HCR and in between. I’m going to support the Greens or some other 3rd party. Fuck them all.

Dude yer killin me today . . . there’s NOTHING wrong with studying rhetoric, the analysis of rhetoric, or Chomsky.

N no it WON’T turn you into a pussy if ya do.

*rollseyes*

I bet if I threw my frisbee on yer porch you’d fuckin keep it . . . . ;-)

LIGHTEN UP HOSS!!!!

But now a few self-appointed “deciders” want to shout down anyone that agrees with the premise of this post, Obama FAIL

The premise of this post is that Obama has been weak on health care reform and has to do something now to fix the mess his weakness has created.

Anyone here disagree with the premise of this post?

The only thing it-that-must-not-be-named is accomplishing with its considerable rhetorical skills is getting people on this thread to point out where they agree with Obama on other issues.

Is that what trolls are being paid to do these days?

Yes I covered Ralph as a young reporter in the 60′s and early 70′s. Heard him speak many times. I had discussions with members of his team of lawyers taking on corporations back when corporations were generally considered “good” for America. He broke with Democrats when it became obvious to him, much sooner than others, that The Dems were owned just like Rebublicans and further support would inevitably lead to the kind of frustration and hair pulling we are witnessing among Progs today.

You’re contention that he he used STALINIST tactics is just flat out ridiculous hyperbole as is your point that he doesn’t care about people. If he only cared about himself, a man with Ralph’s talents and abilities would have followed a much more lucrative path in life. You have managed to demonize him in your own mind because he may have have lossed the presidency for Gore-LIEBERMAN. But the new improved Gore bears little resemblance to the inept, Clinton schooled corporate butt-kissing Gore of 2000.

Go ahead Norske. Keep on supporting these great White or Black Hopes that the Democratics swing back and forth before your eyes every few years. Keep believing silliness such as “what we are witnessing is the most awesome display of political power and gamesmanship that this country has seen in 150 years” or whatever that line was you used a few months back to describe Jedi Obama’s tactics on health care. 20 years down the road we’ll be stuck in the same mud as now.

Citizen Larue:

“Sides, Norske scares the crap outta me.”

I am sorry if you are afraid of me, Citizen Larue, I guess I’m just too old and wounded from history’s slings an arrows to waste time on a lot of polite nicities …I take seriously the discussion of politics with real people who share the burden of citizenship and the understanding of the reality of suffering and don’t have the patience I used ta have. Please don’t fear to engage unless you’re slingin’ some kinda lunatic bullshit…for God’s sake I not only support your right to speak I got shot at defendin’ it…so call me out if I hitcha low but don’t be afraid ta engage.

Knox, in case you haven’t noticed in the past few months, FDL and Mz. Hamsher and us Pups in here have come under increasing amounts of attacks with increasing amounts of varied deliveries ranging from pseudo intellectual to outright Orly Taitz whackaloon batshit crazy.

Some might be just those prowling the toobz for engagement, with the old goal of disruption meaning they win.

Others, increasingly, representing thinly veiled and disguised status quo supporters and even those who are REALLY clever and argue for status quo with all the rightwing GOP talking points cleverly at hand as if they WROTE The PNAC themselves. In other words, with full scripts at hand with which to joust.

By now hoss, you should be spotting them all in about one or two comments!

*G*

Study what you want, throwin it out to prove how smart you are is just bullshit. I had enough of that shit when we actually WERE in the goddamn streets. I also remember very well the do nothing intellectuals standing in the back arguing. See, “Years of Hope Days of Rage” if you must.

Citizen GDC707:

Nader is what he is in history but he is irrelevant to any movement toward a democratic politics today and if you think he has an once of empathy or concern for the suffering of people your are a lost cause.

‘K . . . it’s just you’ve been so one liner dispirited today it got to me.

I prefer the curmudgeonly gonna waste everyone Raven that goes on at length . . .

Guess I was surprised, too . . . ;-)

Are you trying to one up my grey with your grey?

*G*

This had nothing to do with Obama because his style is to let the lawmaking branch of gov’t have full control over making laws, for better or worse.

Then why’s he asking for money? Is he looking to buy a diamond encrusted pen to sign the bill with, or something?

*G*

YER BACK!!!!

*G*

*g*

I’ll admit that this one took me longer to spot. For a while, I couldn’t stop myself from countering. Then I figured that all the extra hits on Firedoglake’s site meter can’t hurt our efforts too much =)

All the attacks on Jane and FDL speak volumes, don’t they?

Right on! Just fired me up!

Thanks for the perspective.

Citizen Raven:

Been there too Brother, and I don’t have patience to spend anymore time on intellectualizin’ the “revolution”….peace, Citizen, they’re playin Taps here so I gotta go make dinner soon, so tell me about this Smith Mountain Lake place.

Some here do and will flame others, misrepresenting posts and using a grab-bag of dishonest tactics to do so.

Yes, they clearly are in the majority, but they hit SUBMIT COMMENT a lot.

Thanks for stating your case even though some here would try to dishonestly scare you into the “its will be your fault if a republican wins” lie.

Those that are ready for real change must stand up to the thugs that proclaim to represent the community while using slight-of-hand to misrepresent the majority of viewpoints here.

See new thread upstairs, buddy…

Good, now join us in ignoring them … we have much more important work ahead.

Right On Cindy. Keep your eyes open to the Pragmatic Party. Let’s do what works!

I studied Nader too, as someone working for NPR small affiliate . . . back then. Mid 70′s. Even in my junior college broadcasting classes (taught by pro’s in the business working in the SF Bay Area) there were political courseworks in broadcasting that delved into Nader and his ‘being’.

In the late 80′s and early 90′s Nader was a subject of study in many of my com studies coursework classes at a 4 year college.

And most of my profs were liberals.

Most in the department were liberal, and Nader was in general held by them all as a person of history, with a part he played, and not considered the anti establishment person he tried to portray or the MSM ginned him up to be, even long back in the 70′s or even the 90′s

I think Norske pretty well nailed Nader. He was good, then he wasn’t, and the not good was LONG before ’00.

And That’s My Opinion.

I guess youjust went apeshit for the Best Branding campaign of 2008. Oh yeah, Obama, the man who shows concern for people’s suffering. If that’s your answer to suffering, you’re a fraud just as Obama is.

Thanks for standing up – many here support your views, but a few would shout you down as if the truth you speak is unwelcome here!

Now is the time to be brave – the future of our nation demands it!

Yep, I got the Snapper Vercruz goin in right now.

One last thing, what makes you jackasses think Jane needs your defending?

Dear General Hamsher:

I’m not with you on this one. I’ve happily conceded that your leadership of this fight has got us to the point we’re at today, and I give you all the credit in the world for that.

I’ll also continue to be willing to work with you in any plausible efforts you may launch to punish those responsible for this mess.

But I don’t agree with you at this point that we need to kill this bill. It’s an improvement over what we have now and maybe even over the little bit of the public option that was left.

I say take the crumbs and continue the fight.

Dear My Most Esteemely Held Fellow Dude And Social/Political Foxhole Partner:

My ‘fear’ was a couched and veiled attempt at humor with respect to your musings and the temperament of style with which you use to CONVEY your musings.

Please know I hold you in great respect and admiration for all you did, and do.

And I remain honored to see and reply to your fonts every day.

Bless ya hoss . . . and bless yers. Some day, I’d sure like to close a bar at dawn with you and a few of you OTHER folks, provided we didn’t have to drive anywhere . . . . you others, you know who you are . . *G*

You Norske’s, you favor some Aqua Vit, do yas? *G*

” if you think he has an once of empathy or concern for the suffering of people your are a lost cause”

Where, pray tell, do you get this?

Ever had a bad car accident?

It would be a fine argument against Nader if the Democrats had offered someone other than pretty committed Milton Friedman’s aficionados.

You offered not only nothing, but a rollback of economic gains made by FDR on behalf of the middle class.

Where, who are your heroes, and why?

Fighting for a weak public option really paid off, hey Jane?

I never went back to school after high school till ’78.
And then, took forever to do so as I was milking it for part time jobs and broadcasting experience.
And almost two decades later, finally went to a 4 year college.

I was in the streets at 16 thru 24. SF Bay Area. I got my head beat in with batons at a park in Palo Alto I think it was called Tilden Park, in ’70, age 17. Bloodied, hospitalized, and thoroughly warned by parental units I had gone too far . . . (and they were libs, but that’s another story).

I did not serve. Nor would I have. I did not believe in Vietnam as a war.

And I would SURE AS SHIT never wave intellectualism in yer face and rub it in.

But I just ask you to let those who DO appreciate it, live a bit lighter without you having to smack us down for it. That’s all, just let us be who we are without having to ridicule us or put us down . . . nothing less than I’d ask of myself to treat YOU in the same manner.

Citizen fuckno:

Take a pill, curl up with your favorite electric blanket and dream of mass marriages in front of Rev. Nader but leave me out of it. I’ve givin’ ya my best shot and failed so I’ll just toddle off now and try and get over the sense of tragic loss that your unwaivering stupidity could not be at least reduced.

“YOU offered not only nothing, but a rollback of economic gains made by FDR on behalf of the middle class.”

MY caps on YOU there, in the direct quote.

Sweet, I’ve fully outed another one.

Thanks for spellin it out where you come from and who you are.

*setsmousetoSCROLL*

Did someone above say that MSNBC has invited someone from Dem Underground on their program to replace Jane’s perspective?

‘

you know I was NEVER talking about you, EVER

You also know, I think that I totally respect those who stood up against the war.

Damn, my bad, hoss . . . my bad. OH well, I had a good rant, ya think?!?!? lol

Yer on that list of mine BTW, for a bar closin at sunrise, someday . . . . *G*

Larue, I believe you yourself alluded to all of us being plus, minus in the ball park. I asked you a question with regards to your preferred and worthy Champion of American Publics common wealth.

Please?

Thank you for your studied reply.

Still, if I have learned anything in my decades after college, it is that many of my old professors were flat out wrong! One problem I had with my liberal professors is that they just were’nt liberal enough.Anyway, I will hold that the idea that Ralph Nader was NOT taking on the Establishment would come as big and striking news to General Motors.

And to the point that Ralph is just some sort of relic I would simply state that the corporate controlled MSM crams him back into a cave and seals the entrance for 3 and a half years and only lets him out in the hope he will damage the Democrats. In the meantime he is actually quite active, just not covered.

As for the relic charge, here is his position, publicly advocated as of 2008.
Nader opposes corporate welfare and seeks to end corporate loopholes, exemptions, credits, accelerated depreciation schedules, deductions, and targeted exceptions. He would balance the national budget by cutting military spending by $100 billion, or about a fifth, and through SHARPLY PROGRESSIVE TAXATION.

Ralph opposed BOTH wars up front and early. He supports GLBT rights across the board. Environmental issues %100. Public financing of campaigns. Corporations OUT of campaigns. Just go down the list. There, my friends. There was your candidate. Someone like Ralph comes along once in a lifetime.

Been sober for 17 years

Yep, you’ve been very vocal about that . . .

I’ve always liked the general directions you are coming from hoss . . .

And if I’ve ever neglected to say so, thank you for your service and welcome home . . .

I’ve tried for a long, long time now to separate our troops from our political leaders and our political goals.

I wasn’t that self aware at 16 . . . but sure was by 21. And I lost a few over there, I went to high school with.

Names are on the wall.

I’m gonna move upthread hoss . . . hope to see ya there . .

I’ll stand in for ya, Big Guy ! *g*

To the power of ignoring Trolls, I give you one of the greatest living Masters – The Art of Fighting Without Fighting

Ah, well then, we greet the dawn with cranberry juice or anyway that works for yas . . congrats, hoss, on 17 years, too. That’s huge . . .

I went in on my 17th birthday, year in Korea a year in the Nam and then joined the struggle. I also have to tell you in full disclosure, although I have a GED I also earned a doctorate at 50. (that’s where the anti-intellectualism really came from!)

Seems like the left of the left on these fineries is called trolls. Makes sense that this country is swirling down the oubliette.

And to this charge that Ralph USED to be good but went sour way before 2000, I ask: WHEN? WHERE? When he refused to get on his knees and blow the Democratic Party hacks? When he could see that they WERE the problem and NOT the answer? That they offered the same old corporate corn-holeing?

You are obviously new to this place, and are to be forgiven an impetuous streak at the beginning.
But your comments directed at (although not limited to) Raven give certainty to only one thing:
You are way, way beyond your depth.

I guess you missed this discussion on another thread the other day – not to mention the past decade in which this issue has been fairly well gone over.

More than 200,000 Florida Democrats voted for George Bush in 2000. That’s twelve percent of Florida Democrats who voted for George Bush, the REPUBLICAN candidate. And it’s more than twice the number of Florida voters who voted for Nader.

Half of all registered Democrats in Florida DIDN’T VOTE AT ALL in 2000.

Now is that Nader’s fault or is that the fault of the Democratic Party?

There were six other independent candidates on the Florida ballot besides Nader. Every one of them got more than 543 votes – those crucial few votes that you believe would have changed the course of history.

But you are wrong to assume that Nader voters would otherwise vote Democratic. As a Nader voter, I can assure you that Nader voters vote their conscience. (Some people see those who are bound by their conscience as “narcissistic” and “selfish.”) As recent events have confirmed once again, the Democratic Party is not a party of principle but of cash, another empty brand that keeps people voting against their own interests under the delusion that their vote means something.

Even if Nader hadn’t been on the ticket in Florida, most of those who voted for Nader would never have voted for Al Gore and the odious Joseph Lieberman. They likely wouldn’t have voted at all.

It is undemocratic in the extreme to insist that there can be only two parties, two candidates, no candidates who represent other points of view – especially as it becomes even more blatant, as Obama continues what Bush continued that Clinton continued and so on – that the two existing parties are just different aspects of the same face – that of Big Business.

We need more parties, not fewer. See, that’s why politicians like Obama and Emanuel can freely screw over their so-called “base.” Because they know those voters have nowhere to go as long as independent parties and candidates are ridiculed and marginalized, kept off the ballot and accused of ruining it for everyone else.

Here’s a little cartoon that explains it all for you. It’s Tommy Douglas’ 1944 Mouseland speech.

Dude, nice one.

I’ve signed. In addition I’ve sent an e-mail to the White House:

—no public option
—giveaway to the banks
—inadequate stimulus
—war in Afghanistan
—claims of executive privilege

Fuck, man. *What* change?

TARP was revived by Obama. It was killed in the House, and with Obama’s helping hand the Senate passed a zombie bill to create zombie banks.

Hoss? I’ve spent the better part of a year thinking that Raven was a woman. Now I’ve finally looked at his Facebook profile to see otherwise, but it’s really screwing with my head trying to attach the imaginary Raven in my head to the actual one.

What’s the use of voting if congress and president don’t do their job and fulfill their promises. No matter what they say during campaign, they do whatever their special interest handlers tell them. We have right to vote but it means nothing. Our democracy has been taken over by capitalism.

HR676… or bust!!

Thanks raven333, remember:

– No torture accountability

– inadequate credit card reform

– inadequate FISA Reform

– failure to uphold rule of law

– Deficit Hawkism in a time of economic hardship

– Lack of transparency and honesty in dealings with the public

It has. But we can’t despair. We have to punish people we elected who broke faith with us. If we keep doing that, Congresspeople will become accountable again. But we can’t quit. We need to be persistent.

Good effort Jane. Thanks for this.

I knew you’d eventually come around to my way of thinking, Jane. How soon can we have dinner?

RH Potfry
TNOYF.com

Ms. Evelyn, you do deserve the Pulitzer for that elegant piece. Thank You.

I’m sorry, Jane, as disappointed as I am in how things are turning out, and as disappointed I am with Obama, I can’t sign this petition, because I don’t agree with it. The failure to pass a public option, despite the huge public support for it, is primarily a failure of the Senate leadership. Yes, you’re right that Rahm wanted a trigger, and Obama has undercut the public option at every turn. But none of that matters, because Obama doesn’t have a vote in the Senate, and if Congress gave him a bill with a public option in it he’d sign it. Certainly he hasn’t helped, but he’s only one of the culprits. The failure isn’t his alone, and at this point even if he actively intervenes it isn’t going to help much.

I’m with Glenn Greenwald: it’s proper to blame Obama for those actions that are completely under his control, like fighting to maintain Bush imperial-presidency powers, escalating the war, and the like (and I do). But the Senate is so badly broken as to be hopeless.