I received this and wrote them back. Here’s what I sent them.

You already did back down. I’ll be giving my time and money to primaries for Progressive candidates against Lincoln, Landrieu, Baucus, Nelson, Reid, and Lieberman.

You might want to ask Olympia Snowe for time and money.

—–Original Message—–
From: President Barack Obama
To: vjones
Sent: Tue, Dec 8, 2009 5:21 pm
Subject: We will not back down

Want to know how bad it’s going to be?

[[ "Few outside ten members themselves have details, including Reid," the aide said, adding that staffers were kicked out of the negotiating room when they neared a deal. ]]

http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2009/12/few-know-details-of-health-care-deal-but-aides-say-public-option-not-dead.php?ref=fpblg

Can you even imagine how disgustingly cynical a sell-out they must have had in mind if even their own handpicked stooges couldn’t be trusted to see it go down?

The key part of his 2007 ideas was the affordability issue. I just don’t understand how young people are going to react well to being forced to pay high premiums because of the mandate. Since there are no cost controls and price controls built into this proposal, how will the average person be able to afford these plans? Without a public option, how is it possible to force the private insurance plans to compete? If the government tries to pick up the balance on overpriced private plans, this will indeed break the bank as it did in the Massachusetts plans. This affordability issue also applies to the buy in group of 55 to 64 year olds. What makes these millionaires think that this group of aged uninsured people are going to be able to afford full premium, no subsidy prices so that they can buy-in? They better make the Medicaid threshold much higher or they are just going to piss-off more and more people.

DCCC/Barney Frank wrote asking for money too. Sent this to them.

I support you Mr. Frank. I just can no longer give any money to the DCCC. I will be giving directly to Progressives in primaries against bluedogs.

—–Original Message—–
From: Barney Frank
To: Jones
Sent: Tue, Dec 8, 2009 12:47 pm
Subject: GOP Masquerade

I got this and was also dumbfounded. I’m glad it’s getting the treatment here & in DK. Thanks Jane.

I don’t even read anything from Barack Obama anymore. These emails go right into the trash. But I did read this one yesterday… and I realized he’ll be happy to sign anything he can call Health Care ‘Reform.’

When I read the email I unsubscribed to OFA. The reason I gave was because Obama threw the PO and his base under the bus.
I think this is a perfect time to unsubscribe to OFA.

Does ANYONE believe the Dems we put in the majority would do this if they believed Progressives would actively work against their reelections? I promise, I will fight every one of the corrupt people starting with Reid in ’10 & ending with Obama in ’12. Shame on them, shame on them all!

I’d estimate at least 50% of OFA members are considering abandoning him (me included). It’s too bad OFA is set up like such a black box, or else we could use the organization itself to hold Obama in check.

Damn – Jane is really gonna piss off the obamabots now. They have already shot their wad with dishonest rhetoric in the 300 comment thread downstairs proclaiming they represent the community here while flaming anyone that agrees with FDL’s founder!

Well stated – I hope you stick your ground when the naysayers show up! Thanks

How will they react? THEY WILL STAY HOME!

And the obamabots will wring their hands and say, “but its their fault” and “its so irresponsible to not let us sell you out. Now shut up and eat another sh!t sandwich because I told you so!

(Variation: I am older and I know more about sh!t sandwiches – you will enjoy them too!)

justice,
You are enjoying yourself at others’ expense. If your goal is to keep fighting for progressive values you should probably quit smoking in the Ammo room.

Dear Barack,

You are on my shit list forever.

Don’t you dare contact me again asking for money.

Oh, and one more thing. Get a job lined up to start in 2013. You won’t be reelected to a second term.

Since there appears to be a failure by the Obama adminstration to deliver nothing meaningful for healthcare reform, I’ll give them nothing until their high flying rhetoric of good intentions matches the final product. I don’t have time for political bullshit anymore, we need results, not platitudes.

If nothing else, I’m hoping that progressives can flex a little muscle in the future as a result of this.

If the DLC types realize that we won’t simply roll over every time they tell us to, we might actually start to see a few real reforms creep into the process.

Or maybe I’m too optimistic…

So what are we going to do about it? Are we just going to yell and then in 2010 and 2012 just go to the polls like obedient sheep and vote for the Flaccidcrats?

Not me.

Jane,

You need to challenge Obama.

You preach to us here.

Run for President.

Nice reply – don’t let the naysayers here stop you!

All this constant complaining about the public option has not been FDL finest hour. Allowing 55 year old people in medicare is real meaningful reform. It will help a lot of people it’s something the republicans would never have done and it is a public option.

Gee, this is the best day evah not to be on O’s email list. Look at how much aggravation it saved me.

A few here would have you believe that is our duty. In fact, they will misrepresent the sentiment of the ENTIRE FDL community, flaming anyone that expresses strong agreement with Jane’s 2 posts that both are based on the premise that obama has failed us.

Do you know how much it’s going to cost?

Pups, don’t feed the thread hijacking troll.

jANE,

I also got that bullshit fundraising email and i was totally annoyed. I just trashed like i do all the other OFA letters i receive. I have no interesting in giving anymore of my hard earned money to liars.

How are young folks going to react when their employer says.. Jr I would love to give you a raise, but that would mean I have to pay for and handle the insurance nightmare… so you will just have to stay at 8.00 an hour till I can justify a 5 to 10k raise (counting insurance costs).

The whole employer set up… is going to doom a lot of folks to low pay in perpetuity.

What can go wrong? Nice bottle or two of wine, a football game on TV, a coupla doses of gamma-hydroxybutyric acid. The perfect bi-partisan late night get together…

GREEN BALLOONS!! GReen ballooxxx….

You haven’t even seen the details yet – it is a far cry from what was promised. Nothing else that they have told us about the direction of the reform is true.

If you want to, without any evidence, proclaim that this is the “real deal” go ahead, but it appears the bulk of folks at FDL and kos are pretty sick of the sh!t sandwich and are ready for change.

Seeing the mug of Obama really riles me. I don’t know when in this country we elevated our elected officials, especially the presidency, into some exhalted plane.

This guy is a simple public servant period. We should stop thinking of these people as belonging to a ruling class. This reverence for the constitution and reverence for the presidency and the president being the most powerful man in the free world is all a bunch of needless subservience to an otherwise ordinary job holder and inanimate papers.

All the press adoration and protocol is really abasing. I hold Obama in complete and utter contempt. I really do. Here is a guy that flitters away people’s well being as though preordained by the gods to dispense favors as he sees fit.

Fuck this low life.

Now we hear that the TARP program will continue to support the Banks with taxpayer money for another year with nary a peep from anyone in Congress. Why is our money continued to be given away to Banks? To what end? Why do are they deserving of this and who the fuck is Obama to be giving other peole’s money away like this?

I think we have to really get ourselves aroused. I mean this general complacency really reveals type of subjugation and servant mentality that is demeaning. We really need to show some degree of dignity. to allow ourselves to be trampled upon like this is just not right.

The administration may be happy to declare victory with a mandate that enriches insurance companies, yet creates little incentive to control costs or change the very business practices that have screwed so many people. But I’ll pass.

IMVHO, what we’re seeing is the depth of the dysfunction and near-death of American federal government. It’s been ongoing for years now, and nearly expired under Bush (i.e., politicized attorneys, judgeships, black money, no financial oversight, and OVP overseeing privatized military and foreign policy).

Looking at the way that McCain, Grassley, Hatch, and other GOP Senators have conducted themselves, it’s hard to view current federal politics as anything but a system that seems eerily close to rigor-mortis.

And the Senate system is so stunningly ‘undemocratic’ — when 32,000,000 Californians have two votes, and fewer than 1,000,000 Nebraskans also have two votes — that it really feels as if the federal system is quite close to running off the rails.

IMVHO, what Obama ought to have said was, “What are your ideas for realigning legislative, budget, and policy processes so that they are closer to the realities of 2010 than they are to the political circumstances of 1840?”

Asking for money for a system in which one Nebraska (or Arkansas, or Louisiana, or Connecticut) Senator can stop health care reform for 320,000,000 is like asking me to support extortion.

It’s insulting.

Obama’s email was shameless, and for him to have sent it after the amazing failure last night – asking for money from people who can’t afford to give it, asking them to trust him to help them, asking them to put all their hopes in him, at the very same time that he’s let them all down – is disgusting.

Thanks, Jane. I linked FDL’s petition in the side column at Circleparkforum, but left out the title “Obama FAIL” for reasons I explained all over the thread of your last post.

The goal with the Obama team and its allies Congress long ago ceased to be real reform as far as I can tell. The only real goals appear to be preserving or enhancing the wealth of the health and pharmaceutical cartels while creating some sort of salable fictional “reform” for the mid-term election season.

Jane,

Indignation won’t do. We need a plan. Let’s draft Dennis Kucinich, the Department Of Peace proponent in the Democratic primary to run against the war president Obama.

Obama has to bailout the banks,and send more troops to war,when can we bring our boys back and put the budget to better use,here’s an article with the latest.
http://ketiva.com/Politics_and_Government/whats_with_the_bailout_obama1.html

Jane for president in 2012.

I’ve never deleted an email faster in my life.

Great. Hold a gun to his head and tell him, “Do EXACTLY as I say or we’re gonna blame it ALL ON YOU”.

Jane & the rest of the FDL libs are pathetic.

You don’t like his economic and healthcare policies, eh?

Wait until you see the policies put forth by the Republican congress in 2010 and a Republican prez in 2012.

Wake up and stop with the self-absorbed Obama sniping!

As we head into the final stretch on health reform, big insurance company lobbyists and their partisan allies hope that their relentless attacks and millions of dollars can intimidate us into accepting the status quo.

Isn’t his plan a bailout of the status quo 55 and over the expensive customers get on the government plan leaving the insurance companies younger less sick more profitable customers?
Of course the tax payers get the bill with no younger customers paying the older ones.
Young people get stuck in the more expensive private system where in other countries they pay less!

Yeah! Good luck with that … this site is complete void of actual ideas. You’ve all boxed yourselves into an incredible narrow ideological box.

Here is what I sent to the DNC:

Don’t even think about asking me for donations. From the President on down the Democratic Party sold itself to big pharma and the insurance industry. The latest betrayal has reduced “health care reform” to a give away to the insurance industry with no controls on the prices they will charge. I will be working with individual candidates in order to circumvent the corporate ownership of the DNC.

I worked hard to help elect President Obama and other Democrats, based in part on promises of Heath Care Reform. All I see is a cave-in to the Republicans and corporations. Good luck in future elections, but you won’t be getting my help.

So I have a message for them, from all of us: Not this time. We have come too far. We will not turn back. We will not back down.

How can you back down if you never took a stand on healthcare to begin with? My head is starting to hurt.

You are pathetic – defending the un-defendable sell-out of Obama and the rest of the corporate owned Dems.

Seeing what Ed Schultz sez tonight. He’s really been hot on this.
Obama doesn’t send me stuff anymore since awhile now. Thankfully…..

Yup, I didn’t even open it, either. What’s frustrating is that I unsubscribed from OFA way back at the FISA fiasco. I refuse to even spend the time on their site needed to unsubscribe again. But I suppose it doesn’t add much time to click on “report as spam” next time…

me either, I was wholly offended.

Passing any bill that says health care means nothing.

I’ve been watching the slomo destruction of the U.S. economy by medical expenses since 1991 (not when it started, just when I first discovered it). Watching the somewhat fastermo destruction of DC since W (started earlier, but did’t seem like such a one-way track until W). Still can’t predict the particular type of implosion that will occur. I wait & watch.

You will vote for the status quo because I SAY SO, now enjoy that sh!t sandwich and open your wallets.

We won’t have any talk about change around here!

Yes, I think I see your point: Obama is my president, right or wrong, and I will support him no matter what he does!

Damn – another person found the turd in the sandwich!

I just finished reading “Nothing to Fear” by Adam Cohen, about the first 100 days of FDR’s administration.

Now there was the original “Yes, We Can” guy, which is why FDR won four terms.

In 2008, I wasn’t going to vote but finally did to prevent McCain slipping in. There really isn’t any difference between Obama and McCain.

Suggestion: Remove yourselves from the offensive email lists. Don’t know whether it’ll amount to enough to matter, but it can’t hurt.

We must continue to build out our campaign — to spread the facts on the air and on the ground, and to bring in more volunteers and train them to join the fight. I urgently need your help to keep this 50-state movement for reform going strong.

Please donate $5 or whatever you can afford today:

http://my.democrats.org/…

Didn’t the Pharaoh Ramses send out the same e mail in stone of course asking for contributions to all the monuments he built to praise his victory over the Hittites?
Ramses actually lost to the Hittites but Orwell New speak was alive and well back then.

Just like we all enthusiastically proclaimed “SIG HEIL” to dur chimpfurher!

Jane-

Thanks for leaving Kobe in the address line of the email when you copied it. That brought a smile to my face to know that his spirit is still around here.

No, it is a futher give-away to the health insurance companies by taking the most expensive to cover people off their hands. There is nothing in this reform that does not have the approval of the CorpoRats.

Well, hope you take your vacuum of ideas with you – don’t let the door hit ya on the way out!

From: President Barack Obama to Kobe

I wish Kobe had lived long enough to bite Obama in the ass over this.

I’m sure he’s doing the equivalent in Doggie Heaven.

I think it’s better to write nasty responses.

Oh dear, just tried to unsubscribe from the DSCC and got this message

Due to daily transaction restrictions, your current IP address(205.188.117.73) has been blocked from making transactions.
Please wait 24 hours before trying again.
If you feel this is not correct, please contact the organization.

Seems like they’ve figured out an electronic way to thwart me.

Yeah and no hot peppers to cover the taste this sandwich is just pure TURD extra turd. Its obvious for Chicago pols Obama and Rahm really can’t lie very well.

Thanks for standing up. And thanks even more for sharing it here. A few regulars have been workin’ overtime to silence those that have finally tasted the turd in their sandwich!

Lots of ways to not accomplish our goal.

Thanks – downstairs they are shouting down those that agree with the main premise of the post. Now is the time to speak up!

Figuratively mebbe. Rainbow Bridge is a no biting zone. All those Zen critters, dontcha know.

Thanks for clearly stating your opinion – most at FDL agree, but a few are shouting down those that express anything but enjoyment of their sh!t sandwich!

“The Party exists for its own sake…” (I can’t get enough of quoting 1984 to those who are so lost they don’t know where the center is…)

Good. Maybe then enough people will get pissed off enough about it to elect leftists instead of cryptofascists.

“at least 50% of OFA members are considering abandoning him (me included)” ; glad to hear it. If he had used his leverage from the election and provided leadership, financial reform would have happened by now and healthcare(health insurance) reform would also be a done deal.

And we would have had prosecutions for the violations of U.S. and International law regarding torture.

OFA made the critical mistake of sending this solicitation to Kobe. Fatal Error. The Firedoglake will not abide.

This gives me an idea as soon as we all figure out how we remove ourselves from all Center DEM Obama email lists if we can get other blogs to go in on the campaign well Obama’s e mail list is a point of pride for his campaign.
Kicking a Man in his pride is sometimes the only way to get him off the couch:)

I’ll fight this crap in Kobe’s memory.

DEFUND THE DNC

I realized he’ll be happy to sign anything he can call Health Care ‘Reform.’

He’d sign a KKK charter for DC if it had “Health Care ‘Reform’” on the title page.

Ah yes, the Morton’s Fork dressed up as a Hobson’s Choice used by the Democratic and Republican parties to create and control sheep. Both Democrats and Republican politicians go and say if you don’t vote for us, you’ll get the bogeyman and then they give you a crapsandwich for your vote. The bogeyman is to scare children, not mature adults who realize they have many choices and don’t have to fall victim to the partisan fearmongering.

Trying to blame this D Party self imposed debacle on the R Party can be expected during 2010 elections.

The truth however is Barack Obama and his WH caved on Single Payer and was in full parley with the entrenched powers of current American healthcare regime way early on.

By mid stretch of this ludicrous reform the first compromised position oddly called the Public Option had been mauled,hacked apart and gored so often it barely was still even anything public or an option.

Now we see the PO has been shoved off the train and the D Party is going to blame the push off on the R Party come 2010 guaranteed.

This will be the Obama WH and D Party BS line.

In truth the R Party has indeed done nothing but throw up political flak or go into overtime coming up with buzz points or phrases such as death panels or how any PO no matter how inconsequential would threaten the world class healthcare system Americans now have. The BS was flowing thick to be sure.

But in all these matters if Obama WH and D party had staked out Single Payer or very strong second position on Open Medicare Option and with working majorities in Congress voted it up and sent it to Obama WH to be signed into law what could R Party do about it? ……………..nothing.

The Shrub got his Iraq War and his for the rich tax cuts easily enough did he not? The Shrub was not the sharpest R ever to sit in WH either. So was the R Party afraid to ram stuff through? ……no.

The D Party since 2007 has been doing Surrender Monkey Dances and Phony Kabuki Skits over and over.

The R Party is out of orbit on sanity to be sure but the D Party does not get to blame the R Party for this healthcare reform debacle. The D Party owns this debacle. The Obama WH owns this debacle.

Letting the Blue Dogs run the table is a D Party problem.

Obama WH going all squishy with the entrenched healthcare regime players is a D Party problem.

Doing full downward spiral compromising with itself is a D Party problem.

Asking for money after doing nothing but moving this reform around the gameboard and going back where it basically started with the entrenched healthcare regime taking the real winnings again is a D Party problem.

There are plenty of dummy Ds in Congress to be sure and that is not a direct result of 2008 election. Barack Obama does not have that excuse.
Barack Obama is not a dummy. His being in WH is a direct 2008 election result. He needs to come clean on his views about integrity of word and deed because here in late 2009 his credibility account is in overdraft status.

If we do an organized Blogs wide campaign we can keep track of how many people leave every Dem mailing list.
This way Rahm can’t lie and say we are not having an effect.

So, ladies and gentlemen, do we have our eyes on progressive candidates for the 2010 congressional elections in our respective districts? We’re burnin’ daylight.

There is something we can do – and it’s easy – become 40%ers. Just let the Party of Hopey McChange know that – we won’t be voting next time. Not for good Dems, not for bad Dems. We will just stay home. The good Dems don’t help the people, and neither do the bad ones. We don’t have money power, we have been sold out by the veal pen and the Dems. Let’s let them know we ARE gonna do something. Wonder what the reaction will be when they start to see Dems drop like flies, because we ain’t buying it anymore?

Those of you who are t’d off with President Obama’s disastrous leadership, i too understand your anger. But to those of you who are calling for a primary challenge against the president….what good will that do? seriously?

I think that’s more effective than sending angry emails that aren’t read. But reasonable peeps can disagree. Some like to send angry retorts.

I just unsubscribed (last night) from all email lists from my alma mater. It was in response to an email saying on how the fat endowment had fallen on hard times owing to stock market conditions. If I get a personal appeal to change my mind, I’ll let you know. BTW, I hated my college.

I’m not going to feed the troll anymore. Besides, it appears that they are obsessed with turds and shit sandwiches. I don’t know what condiment to put on a shit sandwich. Oh, Grey Poop-on?

Please forgive my ignorance, but the “OFA” acronym has me stumped.

Then we feed the GOP friendly media the numbers and point out the average online contributions Obama got sure its not a Presidential year so contributions would be lower but that won’t stop the Media from making estimates of Dem fundraising losses.
The Media loves a Dem in trouble story lets try using them by giving them what they want.

Well, Jane, maybe if you ask the POTUS to veto the bill – I mean ask nicely – he’ll do it. He wouldn’t listen to me if I asked. Oh, and his appeal for funds is a sneaky survey poll, isn’t it? All his base are belong to young people.

Isn’t it “Organizing For America”?

Organizing For America. Took the campaign email list and started a post election organization.

I really feel like the letter is intentionally antagonistic toward the Netroots. We’re a big headache for the administration and they’re pissed off about it. The letter is a deliberate expression of the administration’s disgust with all those who have stood up against their preference for triggered piece of shit legislation.

I think a blog wide campaign would be best but yes some people like to fire back angry emails and of course the front pagers need to stay on the lists in case they get writers block.
College was fun for me High school was bad.

OFA is Obama’s “Organizing for America” huge email list he amassed in the campaign. It was used effectively for grassroots organizing. Now it smells more like astroturf to me…

What you are the drones here @ FDL comments should is:

1. Calm the F down
2. Realize that healthcare reform is going to happen
3. Realize that you are not upset about HCR. You don’t even care.

You’ve gone all-in for 1 thing: A STUPID STINKIN PUBLIC OPTION.

Anything else is shit, is it?

Well, we’ll see who is right 10 years from now.

And, BTW, if you really thought voting for Obama meant a single-payer system, then you are complete idiots and deserve the President Palin we’re all gonna have to suffer through because you won’t accept anything else.

OFA can take their fundraising letter and “shove it where the sun don’t shine.” OFA and Obama will NEVER see a dime of my money EVER.

Yeah, Kucinich 2012!! LOL! Idiots …

I keep hitting this but…it is unconstitutional if this bill passes with a mandate. The government CANNOT force citizens to pay private corporations for anything. They cannot MANDATE that citizens WILL give money to any private company for any reason whatsoever. There is already an intent to challenge the law on this point in the works and the bill hasn’t been finalized yet.

I myself have repeatedly informed Reid and Obama and my own reps that I WILL violate this law if they pass it without a public option or equivalent (a VIABLE non-profit choice). I do NOT recognize the government’s “right” to force me to subsidize CEO bonuses, shareholder dividends, and all that CRAP. No no no no. I will NOT hand my money to a private company under any mandate.

I’d rather literally fight another Revolution than accept the government forcing me to enrich its butthole buddies in the any corporation.

this site is complete void of actual ideas.

So get the fuck out of here yourself.

If “this site” is so bad, WTF are you doing here?

is there any way this joke of a bill doesn’t pass the House after conference?

Good. Keep your money. You’ll need it to pay for a flight to Canada when you get stuck with Majority Leaders Boehner & DeMint and President Palin.

Am I to believe that you idiots voted for a president based on a healthcare public option? REALLY??

What you are the drones here @ FDL comments should is:

Edit can be your friend. As far as drones are concerned I take it your new and have you ever seen us argue hourly over issues.

NPR very sad commentary on poverty in this country and loss of the safety net…Powerful

Fabulous!!!

Thank you.

Seconded!

Yes.

Oh, you’re brilliant. You NEVER knew the gov’t subsidies industries already? LOL! AND you think it’s unconstitutional? HA HA HA. Take a look at farms, defense contractors, insurance companies …

Argue? Obama FAIL. HCR is a big TURD. Not another dime to OFA. Interesting definition of “argue”.

Great post – downstairs a few are flaming people that express these concerns, pretending to represent FDL and the majority of the community.

It is a lie and they are misrepresenting posts to do it. It is refreshing to read this thread because the lying liars are not distorting and flaming.

This is thread is mostly just people saying how they feel – as it should be. Thanks all!

I do very much LOVE hanging up on the assholes from the DSCC, DCCC, DNC, or ANY Republicrat group that calls me for money. If I don’t immediately hang up on them, I rail at them BEFORE I hang up stating that I will NEVER give my money to any Democratic organization ever again and that I WILL be voting AGAINST the Democrats in 2010.

I still get those assholery phone calls, though much diminished, so it seems the idiots haven’t yet gotten the hint.

I will, however, provide what support I can to Grayson, Kucinich, and one or two others (literally, only one or two others) as the time comes. Too bad I cannot vote for them. I’m stuck with Bayh and Loogie and similar criminals up and down the ticket. So I vote socialist or independent or libertarian, whatever is available, just because.

Well, he will still lie and the MSM will “catapult it”, but at least progressive voters will know the truth.

Wait….I’m on your side. I support the President but i will not be his rubber stamp nor should you my friend.

in 2010 no one gets my vote unless they take a pledge to vote for “Medicare For All!” If a Republican will take that pledge i’ll vote for them, work for them and give them money. As for Bluedogs and Conservadems whom EVER runs against them will get my support. I would much rather have a Republican who i know will sell me out than a Democrat who asks for my vote then stabs us in the back. This pledge of mine includes Dems who voted for the Stupak amendment. MY RALLYING CRY IS “MEDICARE FOR ALL IN 2010!”

The “you idiots” is really getting old.

If you think we’re opposing this bill because of “A STUPID STINKIN PUBLIC OPTION” then you’re either ignorant of our values or deliberately trying to distort them. I could tell you several things about the bill that are “good” and I could tell you several things about the bill that are “bad”, and when deciding whether to support it one must decide if the positives outweighs the negatives.

I, for one, believe the negatives outweigh the positives, and therefore contacted my two Senators urging them to vote no on the bill or cloture. If your opinion leads you to a different conclusion, so be it. But most folks posting on here are not “idiots”. OK?

Someone sure has his Dale Carnegie patter down to a T, no?

That’s how you win friends and build coalitions, folks. Everyone watch and learn.

wrong. congress makes the laws, he signs them. President, not Superman.

When those hurling the Nader and Kucinich taunts (oh, the sting!) are finished, they can return to eating their shit sandwiches. And as they gag on the stench, they can take comfort in the thought that McCain wouldn’t have given them a pickle on the side.

Don’t feed the trolls.

Had I known that Rahm was going to be Chief of Staff, I’d have voted for someone else in the primary. As soon as I heard that, you could see things like this coming six miles away.

He can pound sand if he thinks he’s getting a dime of my money or a minute of my time.

I didn’t start watching in 1991, but I’ve watched for a while now.
Scary stuff.

The idea that one Senator can derail health care reform (while at the same time enabling Wall Street, Pharma, and healthCos), by bleating about ‘abortion’, or whatever other distraction they want to throw in so that 350,000,000 are screwed is a sign that this system ain’t working.

It is institutionally dysfunctional.

But the institution of Congress needs some revised rules; you can’t sustain a national system when one Senator can screw over 350,000,000 other citizens.

It’s political extortion, which the Senate as an institution tries to paper over with a patina of respectability. But this health care ‘reform’ debate has revealed a GOP devoid of ideas, and a Democratic party willing to submit to what looks like political extortion time, after time, after time.

The Senate needs to revise its rules.
The idea that any single Senator can force a halt to the legislative needs of 350,000,000 is loony tunes.

That’s not consensus.
That is political extortion.

It really does make it seem as if an implosion is likely; I still hold out hope that skilled leadership can implement new rules and get things functional again. But it becomes more depressing with each logjam.

I am opposed to those subsidies too but this is different – it requires that I go out and specifically hand MY money to a CEO of a private insurance company so s/he can cut my coverage when I get sick, or refuse to cover something I require to live, all so s/he can maximize their bonus and profit.

Profit has no place in healthcare coverage. There should be NO for-profit insurance companies because the ONLY way they can make profits is by murdering people. These assholes literally have a business model based on “you give us money and we give you nothing in return if at all possible.”

Fuck that. Your “subsidies” for private corporations are totally different than this situation and both are equally unacceptable.

Had I known that Rahm was going to be Chief of Staff, I’d have voted for someone else in the primary

me too

The only people with poll numbers lower than Obama would be the GOP. Its hard to believe that the GOP can capitalize on Healthcare.
Unemployment nope the GOP fought Obama on the GM Chrysler bailout. The Banking Crisis the Party of Big Business convince voters they didn’t cause the Banking Crisis?
The Wars in Iraq and Afghanistan John McCain would have had us bombing Iran.
Just what issue can the GOP run on taxes? Sure and with war spending going full strength that would mean more debt or as we Lefties call it future taxes with interest added on.
The GOP has no issues they can use to rally people cause they have no ideas. Hate Fear Greed and Jealousy over someone else minorities, gays women getting special rights, changing things or supposedly getting Government cash is what the GOP is best at.
We win elections about ideas the GOP wins elections about gossip/ negative emotions.

Again, I am commenting because I am so angry that if I don’t vent my head will probably explode…

I just sent another frustrated email to the White House where, I am sure, it is deleted immediately upon receipt.

Dear President Obama:

You should be as ashamed of yourself for calling this piece of garbage that has emerged from the senate “healthcare reform,” as I am for being stupid enough to fall for your campaign slogans and actually voting for you.

This “healthcare reform” is a joke, and you should not for a second believe that those who supported you will fall for it. Thanks for nothing. Find someone else to support your cause in 2012. I am sure United Healthcare will send you money…

No one is complaining that we didn’t get single payer – but I am coming to expect a lot of dishonest rhetoric from those that want to derail an honest dialog about what Jane has to share.

Interesting definition of “argue”.

You are new here sometimes I think all the regulars think we argue to much.

Sure, i have been hanging around for a while and just felt the need to express some solidarity with those that have had it up to the eyeballs with the BS;)

There is no plurality here that proclaims we should run K in 2012, but lies are all you and a few other regulars here have.

People are upset about the disaster that this administration has become. They want to do something positive about it. All you want to do is lie and derail the dialog.

The obnoxious part is you pretend to be such a good pup while slandering everyone that agrees with the major premises behind 2 of Jane’s posts.

Sorry, but the SCOTUS that sanctioned dur chimpfurher’s stolen election in 2000 is not going to stand up for the little folks on this one.

This is what the corpocracy wants – IMHO, they will not dare stand in the way, not even using “states rights” as a shield.

The MSM loves Dem in trouble stories so I’m hoping this story would get covered our way not Rahm’s way.

I don’t spend a lot of time “firing angry e-mails,” but I do think that a negative push-back every time they send out one of these slime sandwiches gives them more feedback than just an “unsubscribe,” ’cause then you’re gone from their radar screen.

I used to work in a Congressional office responding to mail, so I have no illusions that anything I write is either read or considered ANYWHERE. I just figure it counts as a “no” in the “will you support us” race. Better to be in there with a “no” than not counted at all.

Trying to derail a dialog that Jane thinks is important. Did you read the thread downstairs? It is full of comments by a handful that have nothing nice or honest to say about the majority of opinion here.

They do it by implying they are protecting FDL – they won’t directly attack Jane, but they will attack those that voice agreement with her main points.

Almost every elected politician takes the same oath: “First, do no harm. Then, do harm.”

We have allowed the trolls to take over today. Enough.

Sorry bubba. The threat of the Republican boogey-man won’t cajole me into voting or supporting Blue Dog or closet Blue Dog Democratic politicans any longer. I’ve lived through Bush-Cheney. I can do it again. Forget it. I’ve been hearing and buying into nonsense about moderation and third-way tactics for nearly 20 years. Enough. It’s just lead to a Potemkin Village Democratic Party on the federal level.

Isn’t it about time Jane visits Rachel to articulate her sentiments about this whole HCR fiasco? Not that those who need to hear it would be listening, but still…

More dishonest rhetoric – it isn’t just this, its EVERYTHING ELSE he has sold us out on. If there was any reason to believe that we could work incrementally to improve this, most would give him a chance.

Downstairs, the likes of you maybe have been able to create the false impression that you were somehow standing up for the FDL community (at least in your own minds).

In this thread, it is clear what you are – very condescending and insulting to the Jane and the majority of opinions being expressed.

Maui . . . that’s just not kewl AFAIC. No veiled racial shit . . . it’s not funny, nor cryptic.

It’s dehumanizing, and lowers yourself to the 23% level.

And I respect you MUCH more than that.

Be angry, be hateful, of the man, his policy but not his skin color.
That’s just how I roll . . . sorry if it offends you or others, but I had to say it.

“First, do no harm. Then, do harm. Then soak your heads. Then lather, rinse and repeat.”

Might work…

If you liked being sold out on the economy, healthcare, and endless war, you will LOVE obama’s Social Security Commission!

Did you read the thread downstairs?

Sadly, no. [snerk] I guess I’ll have to now go do so.

You know, this guy (and a few downstairs) are really just arguing against Jane – BUT THEY DON’T HAVE THE BALLS TO DO IT DIRECTLY!

Cowards

mk3872 would support his/her god, Obama, even if he was directly butt-raping him dry. Some people think he is the bestest thing since sex and even when he is totally sellout wrong, he is right.

It is better, to these morons, if a DEMOCRAP sticks a shiv in their back by feeding corporate criminals, but hey, if a GOPer does the VERY SAME THING it is evil evil monstrous.

It is best to totally drop the bastard and let the chips fall where they may. This country has been on a sharply declining spiral since Clinton and it has only accelerated with Bush Jr and now Obama. They are so bought and paid for by bankers and corporate criminal CEOs that they are happy to literally Shock Doctrine their own citizens so they can have their ultra-lush gated communities at everyone else’s expense.

This constant stabbing in the back and in the chest by the elitist swine like Obama and his banker, big pharma, and insurance company butthole buddies is what is going to doom him and the Democraps in 2010 and 2012. At this point, even though it would simply SPEED the collapse of this country into a steaming revolutionary mess, I would vote for Palin in 2012 just to screw Obama AND push to bring the whole house down around us. From the ashes we can then build a proper country where the rich are eaten for dinner.

We’re ALL under the bus!

The GOP can’t get away with lies because we fact check and spread stories nationally.

Resignation from Senate leadership
Political controversy ensued following remarks Lott made on December 5, 2002 at the 100th birthday party of Sen. Strom Thurmond of South Carolina. Thurmond ran for President of the United States in 1948 on the Dixiecrat (or States’ Rights) ticket. Lott said: “When Strom Thurmond ran for president, we voted for him. We’re proud of it. And if the rest of the country had followed our lead, we wouldn’t have had all these problems over the years, either.”[13]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trent_Lott#Resignation_from_Senate_leadership

Macaca controversy

Allen points to Webb aide S.R. Sidarth, referring to him as “Macaca.”[39]
Main article: United States Senate election in Virginia, 2006#Allen’s Macaca controversy
See also: Macacawitz
On August 11, 2006, at a campaign stop in Breaks, Virginia, near the Kentucky border, Allen twice used the word macaca to refer to S.R. Sidarth, an Indian-American, who was filming the event as a “tracker” for the opposing Webb campaign. Macaca is generally used in francophone African nations, which led to speculation that Allen may have heard the epithet from his mother,[40] a Francophone who grew up in French-colonial Tunisia. Allen apologized and later said that he did not know the meaning of the word.[41] In 2008, The Washington Post speculated that, were it not for this single utterance, Allen would have been a strong candidate for the 2008 GOP presidential nomination.[42]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Allen_(U.S._politician)#Macaca_controversy

We forced coverage on both stories when the Media tried to ignore it I still remember the McLaughlin from the McLaughlin Group trying to say Allen would not be hurt by this.
Reagan’s made up Chicago Welfare Queen driving a Caddy story which the Media never checked at the time would never fly today because of us.
Tell me what good are gossip and lies when only the 20%ers believe?

can you just stop complainin’ about trolls, whose characteristics you cannot even define?

He doesn’t have any “buddies” in this thread, so he can’t play the, “I am only standing up for FDL/Jane card that they are playing downstairs.

He knows that the dishonest rhetoric and distortions a few are using downstairs won’t work here, so we are seeing the last resort of scoundrels.

That’s a very interesting concept, both the hat the netroots thing and the email being a part of that.

I don’t DOUBT the netroots being a major thorn in the side of Obama/WH/Rham/1%.

What I’ve not thought about is how the WH and the PTB might actually try and COUNTER that being.

If the number of trolls in here today at FDL is any indication, it would appear that paid concern trolling is one of the strike back tactics.

I had a couple of GREAT shit laden couple of comments a few threads back (based on rep Pups mentioning shit) and now they’ve stolen THAT meme to use.

Clever little girls they are . . .

Ok this should be debated more. Are angry emails worth more than a news story showing our power?
Which would get a better or any result from the WH? I’m not sure either way.

SPOT ON!

Many here would NEVER have voted for obama had they known that he would tap the slimy creep that did bill clinton’s dirty work.

After all, avoiding the likes of rahm was why they did not support shillary in the primaries.

Our party needs to realize one thing. Our desire to assure Democratic majorities in Congress by actively voting, donating and agitating has to do with our belief that Dems will have a better chance of delivering to us the critical policies and laws that we want. Of course we’re willing to let them skate for inaction every now and then on smaller issues – whether DOMA or executive bonuses or TARP 2 or even a minor war or two. But healthcare is the issue. If they can’t deliver on this, many of us will believe that they can’t deliver on anything at all. In which case, we’ll simply stay home. We won’t vote for Republicans, and we shouldn’t push for the impossibility of a third party, but nor can they expect us to show up to give them 4 more years in 2010 and 2012. They need to understand this.

The “one senator” can only do it with FULL COMPLICITY of the party and, in this case, the white house.

Love your continual take on this aspect, the legal thang.

I always stop, breathe, and smile that it might be true . . . .

But the PTB have bought off the Supreme’s and the legal system.

So, that kinda shoots down your hope about beating mandates in the legal arena.

I don’t even think legal CHALLANGES from ACLU or anyone will really make any progress.

Game’s rigged hoss . . . I don’t see legal challanges confronting mandates, they are good to go from the getgo as far as I can see . . . .

I think the term Combative might be more accurate then Argue. Argue seems to denote some actual back and forth between people of opposing opinions. mk38whatever is just smashing things up. It’s getting on my nerves.
Like my neighbor’s dog barking,barking,barking.

He was trying to represent us downstairs? Given his lack of knowledge of Edit and our history arguing I’m sure he’s new. (I confess I forget edit sometimes too though).

House won’t get to see it, much less vote for it.

House Leadership will have a Committee, they will sign off on it no questions and Obama makes it so.

That’s the plan, as I have seen it laid out.

NO reconciliation between House Bill and Senate Bill. And history shows Senate actions on these matters ALWAYS dominate and prevail over House intent, regardless of that intent.

Wish I felt better about it, but I don’t.

Thanks for sharing – please scroll through Janes thread downstairs and observe how some would lie and obfuscate and try to intimidate that you are going against the vast majority here.

Hell, downstairs, they are even misrepresenting a post by Jane titled Obama FAIL as somehow not allowing the setiments you have expressed.

We don’t need everyone to agree with us, but we do need an honest dialog. Thanks for sharing.

Do you drive a car? Can you do it legally without liabilty insurance?

justice, stop taking shit too personally! You are right about Obama, you’re mader than mad, ok, we get it. Ease up on the uppers, we’ll still be here tomorrow and after. If you’ll be running around hair on fire and all that hear ye stuff you’ll turn yourself into white noise. It would be a shame as someone so energized as yourself could be useful. Pipe down, the problems will be getting bigger with Obama, shooting off your bolt now, just doesn’t seem an effective strategy.

True you don’t convince people unless you can address their concerns this sounds more like Rahm barking do it now than a person who wants to talk issues.

Not really – it is self-serving. A few don’t like that REAL change will demand REAL action. The “argument” bit by the regulars is just some dishonest rhetoric to derail a meaningful dialog.

He tapped Rubin, – that alone should have done it.

Agreed, but regardless, this dialog is important. Thanks for ignoring the folks that would derail it.

Please be sure to scroll through Jane’s post downstairs to see the different ways a few try to intimidate the majority here, all the while pretending that it is for the community and Jane.

I agree health care is THE issue. Has been my whole life.

But you want to know THE issue for politicians? It’s THE VOTE. They don’t care if we stop giving them money (they can hit up their corporate masters for more money), and they don’t care if we bitch, complain, moan and groan. But if we do ACTUALLY WITHOLD our votes from, now THAT will get their attention.

And I’m committed to doing just that with Obama in 2012. I will support a primary challenger if one is available, but if one is not, I will, really, on election day 2012, NOT vote for Obama. I won’t vote for the Republican, but I will really not vote for Obama. I wonder how many of the bitchers and moaners on here today are really going to go that far. Because if you’re not, then the message will be heard loud and clear to the party apparatus. “Hey, we can screw them every which way but Sunday, but they’ll vote for us cause they hate the Republicans.”

That’s the message that is there now. If we don’t change that message, then we’ll continue to get Party nominees just like Obama. If we send a new message that only real progressives earn our vote, then it doesn’t take a rocket scientist to figure out if they want to win (and they will want to win), that they need to run real progressives. I’m just not sure that message has really sunk in yet. Do you think it has?

Either govt and private sector 1% unemployment is up, or they’re all on XMAS leave for a month or so.

They is everwhere!!!!!!!! Today, too. Also. Bethcha. ;-)

It’s not about you, stop being such a self absorbed prima donna, dude!

You are not forced to purchase liability insurance. You can choose to not own a car and walk, bike, or use public transportation. Not the same.

Do you believe that all, or even most, people 55-64 will be allowed to buy into Medicare? My bet is that the only people that will be allowed to buy into Medicare, if anyone is, will be the people that the insurance companies don’t want under any circumstances. There is no reform so small that the people writing this bill won’t turn into shit to please their corporate owners.

Remind me of the moron that sticks a flag in his naval and stands in front of a parade, pretending to be the leader.

Downstairs, your dishonest rhetoric and insults may have looked clever, up here you stand out as a fool. Thanks!

Anyone doubt me? Please scroll down that thread and decide for yourself.

“Had I known that Rahm was going to be Chief of Staff,. . . ”

Heh, the MINUTE he was put up, I had this sinking feeling, and that was just from his AIPAC love.

Since then, he’s proven he’s as fucked up across board on ALL issues.

Good insight, I’m having GREAT regrets about that one . . buyer’s remorse as it were.

Thanks for sharing that . . .

WELL STATED! Thanks for standing up. It is time that folks take the dialog back from the few that, dissin’ the Jane and the entire FDL community, want to sidetrack and derail an honest dialog about a failed administration.

“The only people with poll numbers lower than Obama would be the GOP. ”

Where do you GET that?

How do you measure it, or how does your source measure that?

It flies in the face of anything I’ve read in MSM or blogs like 538 or anywhere else (not that I’m a fan of Nate Silver).

Rlly???? Srsly?????

I like your style – thanks for standing up to the thugs that are using boogie-man tactics to flame and intimidate. Please keep speaking your mind because REAL change demands it.

I am pretty much in total agreement with you.

But do you think that maybe you could tone it down a few notches? It would be awfully nice of you if you could.

Then simply resist. Do NOT go along – do NOT pay a mandate. Refuse. Resist. Protest. Enough people do it and the whole thing crashes.

You can’t call that arguing . . . and the regulars in here can tell the difference between arguing and either stirring up shit or being MISiformed or pushing the memes of the disengenious and 1% scripted.

Downstairs – said fool had an “echo chamber” that frequently hits the SUBMIT COMMENT button to flame others and try and create the illustion that they speak for the community.

It is a lie, but it only takes a few of them flaming in cohort to intimidate some. THANKS FOR STANDING UP!

Are angry emails worth more than a news story showing our power?

Actually, I’d vote for the news story.

But I think there has to be some “coverage” or promotion of such a story. Random individuals unsubscribing probably wouldn’t get counted. Now, a campaign encouraging folks to unsubscribe en masse [as suggested by someone above], that should get some traction!

Note please that we’re looking at two different audiences for the “message” re what’s occurring: the in-house DNC, OFA, DCCC and DSCC peons who tally the responses vs. the “media” [whom I guess we should refer to, symetrically, as "outhouses"] who, if we can get them up off their lazy asses, report “trends.”

The media will only see the “huge numbers of folks are unsubscribing” story. They’d never see, or be interested in, the “huge numbers of folks are sending angry e-mails in response” story.

So, you’re right: at this point a concerted campaign to “unsubscribe” would be better. I was only intending to report on my choice up to this point.

Just trying to enjoy myself, in my pajamas, in my mom’s basement ma’am.

They IS everwhere, huh . . . *G*

Thats the only way to do it, and it’s going to happen.

Nice rhetoric, but how can what you say be accomplished without a free and open dialog like Jane and the vast majority in this community want?

Sorry, friend, you can’t have it both ways – nice try, but can’t serve both of these points of view.

You are correct, there is a distinction, but that distinction has nothing to do with the fact the state has the authority to require you to purchase insurance.

Why edit people understand the posts – probably been around longer than you, friend.

But is this just another version of the I AM OLDER THAN YOU straw argument from downstairs?

There are no fucking ‘minor wars’- dude!

What fucking constructive addition to the dialog have you presented ALL FUCKING DAY, dude?
If you’re a paid troll the GOP must pay by the word.

Agreed I won’t unsubscribe without a big campaign to backing it up and giving the act some meaning.

Agreed saw the last Jane thread the trolls were on.

And that’s how mandates are gonna be . . . I see NO legal challenges that will prevent mandates from being implemented from day one.

What I DO see, however, that NO one has hardly ever mentioned, is this:

HOW THE FUCK ARE THEY GONNA ENFORCE NONCOMPLIANCE?

Much less conduct oversight to FIND noncompliance?

*G*

Yeah, sure, I’m as guilty as the next human in hoping for a pony . . . . ;-)

No madder than mad, friend – just going to hammer anyone that flames the vast majority of the setiments expressed here.

I don’t speak for anyone but myself, but won’t sit by and watch a few try and intimidate others.

Obviously, the majority of commenters agree with the bulk of Jane’s setiment. I am sure her and I have very different ideas about what should happen next, but I would respect that.

I will not respect a handful of people dishonestly manipulating comments and doing so under the guise of “protecting” the community. I will let them know it and let the chips fall where they may.

Most here agree with the opinions you and I share. Most are willing to let go of any differences. Only a few try to intimidate. They are going to look like fools to anyone that reads this thread.

So be it!

You are not here to support Jane. You are an ordinary troll – loud but ordinary. You have spent the day trying to stir things up. You accuse of us of not allowing differing opinions but all you have done is throw mud at our opinions. You can have any opinions you want but you are apparently new here so why don’t you sit back and see how the site operates. There are a lot of really smart people here and if you stick around for late night you are likely to learn a few things.

Well said – thanks. It appears the majority have beliefs that share a great deal with your concerns (but maybe I am wrong, I speak only for myself).

Most of all – thanks for not pulling the “I AM OLDER THAN YOU SO YOU SHOULD SHUT UP” routine that is being used downstairs on Jane’s threads. I respect anyone’s life experiences, but only if they have some respect of the life experiences of others.

Last resort of scoundrels…

Never said what you are saying, but your tactics are common here – but only among a few.

I did that, too — but my reply was returned as undeliverable. Whatever — I was just giving the White House a clue as to why their former supporters were gone now. I guess they didn’t want to know.

I don’t understand where the state gets the authority to require me to purchase anything. So you mean the state can require me to purchase a car if the auto industry lobbies them well enough? A loaf of bread if the baking industry lobbies them well enough? A side of beef if the beef industry lobbies them well enough?

I don’t understand how the state forcing us to purchase anything is Constitutional. Doesn’t mean it won’t get ruled on that way, after all the SCOTUS is full of folks that love corporations right now, but that’s a statement about the SCOTUS, not about the Constitution.

What if it’s only one troll, with multiple IP’s and identities?

ONE single troll, could fuck up a whole day’s worth of blogging?

Damn but I’m missing some potential employment here . . .

Anyone got any leads on how I could get paid to hit Politico or some other sites and make money in my pajama’s in my mom’s basement?

George Soros, are you there? I wanna serve my peeps!!!!!!

*G*

You might think that pouring gasoline on an otherwise common, fiery conversation here is the thing to do. I can assure you, it is not.

And from what I have gathered over the years, Jane Hamsher is the last person who needs your loud, over-the-top, screeching defense.

Without offering an opinion about your motives, I leave you with this:

de-caf.

The jerk in question was saying we don’t argue at FDL so yes based on that statement I assumed he was new here plus he or she didn’t seem to know edit.
Any real regular would take the idea that we don’t argue at the Lake as hilarious. As far as the older argument goes the Lake has a culture the older folks try and politely correct new people from making mistakes or just being jerks.
Sometimes they mess up and end up being polite to a troll. I don’t care if you have been here longer than me your arguments lacked ideas and you seemed uncaring of others viewpoints much less addressing them.
So yeah you are a Troll. Cripes Grumpy at least has ideas.

Maybe they can ask neighbor to snitch on neighbor, reporting on the healthiest who don’t buy insurance.

Maybe the private insurers can push next to get a provision like that into the bill.

I know this situation is not funny. But it is the height of ridiculous.

ONE single troll, could fuck up a whole day’s worth of blogging?

Looks like more than one troll to me.

Starting to think they’re OFA people, funnily enough.

Fills me with pride knowing that they know that we’re such a threat to them.

Now they know that we know that they know.

Besides, they haven’t fucked up a whole day’s worth of blogging!

I’ve been here a lot and put up a couple of posts elsewhere.

OMG a Jane Concern Troll Koz will be so Jealous he didn’t get a Koz Concern Troll first! Bwahahaha Jane Gots her own Honest Iago loaded with fake concern, but fooling no one.

The 3rd Paragraph of Section 8 of Article II of the Constitution has been
construed broadly to allow this sort of mandate.

I can’t see a neighbor knowing about someone else’s insurance business.

But I CAN see a new requirement at DMV or within the medical service community for a card that you can’t GET without proof of coverage.

And so, the minute you try and get care, yer outed and busted.

Then what do they do to ya? Soylent Green?

*G*

The battlefield is vast, the enemy (and trolls) is everywhere.

It’s a hard fight, it is.

*G*

” We need a plan.”

Any meningful “plan” will start in your statehouse after the results of the 2010 census are in. Most states will embark on a major re-districting and that process will be controlled by the majority of the state legislature.

Remember, “All politics is local”.

Jane and Mod,

I just noticed that in Obama’s letter that you reproduced in the post, you left in the link to the donation page.

Please remove it and replace it with:

[link provided]

That’s what I did this morning when I posted that shameless letter.

Seriously, please take it out. It’s that offensive.

I can’t think of a single example of the commerce clause being used to force a citizen to purchase something from a private entity. Can you please link to some examples? Perhaps it is out of reach of my memory, which admittedly ain’t what it used to be.

I was joking to make a point about the ridiculousness of the whole fucking thing…

I said: It’s not about you, stop being such a self absorbed prima donna, dude!

You replied:

“Last resort of scoundrels…

Never said what you are saying, but your tactics are common here – but only among a few.”

I say:

Of course you didn’t. Question: have you been assessed as belonging on the high functioning end of the Spectrum, or are you just an absolute glutton for attention?

I don’t think the route for enforcement will entail the commerce clause.

Have to see if Jon Walker can confirm this, but I think it works like this:
If you have employer based healthcare available to you, you have to take it. You can’t opt out and be in the exchange.

If you did opt out in that scenario, you’d end up with an IRS penalty,and that’s not a commerce clause thing. It’s an AGI thing,following usual IRS rules.

If your employer did NOT offer insurance, and you had to purchase insurance on your own, I think the penalty is in abeyance until the exchange is up and running; 2013.

At that point, same thing, purchase on the exchange, or IRS penalty.

The curious thing will be if it works out to be smarter and cheaper to pay the penalty.

Citizens who say they’ll stay home instead of voting can’t possibly know that the same ‘protest’ or apathy led to the disappearance of the Weimar Republic’s democracy in 1933. If citizens really want to make themselves heard and felt, they have to wear their consumer hats and do some very serious, targeted boycotting. Coalesce and withhold your insurance premiums (if you’re an individual subscriber) – first make sure you can’t be cancelled before a contractual grace period lapses. It won’t change anyone’s minds, it’s too late to negotiate; but you can punish your enemies in advance and have some satisfaction. Statistically, it’s more dangerous and harmful to your health and welfare to withhold your vote than to have no health insurance at all. You can still pay for care out of pocket, and most likely far less than $5K-$10K a year for it.

I’ll take door number 2

Exactly. Dude’s got issues. SetmousetoSCROLL. Thanks.

Dear Larue – the Democrats plan to make sure people comply with the mandates by using the IRS!

that’ll teach people a little about Hope-n-Change, right there!

since you have such interest in and knowledge of the demise of Weimar, I’m sure you will be interested in this:

http://powerofnarrative.blogspot.com/2006/09/thus-world-was-lost.html

That’s depressing to be reminded about. I was only trying to be an ineffectual fear-monger since in a two-party system like ours, abstaining or voting ‘Present’, or refusing to participate always benefits the voting majority. Instead of staying home, a citizen can write in Ralph Nader’s name, or Jane Hamsher’s, at the top of the ballot, which includes dozens of other offices and more than twice that number of candidates.

mmm… i thought we were all boycotting the DCCC and unsubscribing from OFA until they repealed DADT and DOMA? Or were liberal blogs not really joining in that boycott.

I long ago desubscribed from all such email lists, thank the gods! …because that one would have sent my typically low blood pressure off the top of the chart.

two sides of a dire coin, that link – on the one hand, the engineer’s bears witness to the mass failure of courage of 1930′s Germany, but also holds out hope to individual acts of courage in daily life as a path to salvation.

Your condescension is pathetic.

How do know it’s meaningful? You don’t even know what the details are yet?

Well then, I will quit paying taxes and become a tax protestor. One way or another, I WILL deny insurance companies my “mandated” money. Not a single CEO in existence has a right to a single penny of MY money.

I say again, I’d rather fight a new Revolution, literally I assure you, than allow the government to force me to fund CEO bonuses and shareholder dividends. No FUCKING way.

Sorry, I’ll take the fall of the new Weimar Republic rather than perpetuate the current system of criminals. The fall of the current system does NOT guarantee another NAZI replacement, but absolute chaos would be preferable to a kleptocracy.

I WANT the current USA to collapse into a steaming pile of shit that it has become. It does NOT exist in anything remotely resembling the lie you were taught in school. It IS a kleptocracy through and through and there is NO saving it by voting for a merely less blatant criminal (Obama and the Democraps) over a blatant criminal (any GOPer).

I’ll take the fall of the new Weimar for $5.

No, I’m sorrier, Dimitri (h/t Kubrick & Southern). You replied to my bait instead of my switch @209. Hey, don’t knock my insipid school education – if not for its chauvinistic propaganda I couldn’t have been radicalized into becoming the hard-core anarchist I like to think I am. Anyway, as long as we still vote (and don’t forget how relatively large the last turnout was) we can (if we live long enough) get the rat bastards to either leave the sinking ship or use impeachment proceedings to save their own sorry asses. I have faith in their corrupt cynicism. Buck up! It’s not as criminal, and worse than criminal, as when half the population were slaves; we’re all slaves, and we’ll have to become abolitionists if we can figure out how.

Kos is right. Maybe we should all vote Republican and then they will give us the magical public option. Then we can all frolic in the flowers and pat ourselves on the back because all of our problems will be solved.

I’m thinking it’s not pajamas in Mom’s basement. I’m imaging a young trust fund frat with cocaine ,a laptop and access to Daddy’s hookers.

With a shit sandwich fetish. Fuck! Is David Vitter moonlighting!?!

hopefully plenty of folks will find a way to refuse the mandates – your sentiments will be extremely widespread.

Thanks Democrats! (and the ‘progressives’ who covered for them!)

I are scared of Revolution. They’ve begun using drones to patrol the borders, have a private militia controlling the drug gang problem in a small town[Salinas] , have completed the establishment of the Office of Applications[monitoring], have a prison system from here to forever standing empty.
I own a pellet gun, a 22 rifle, a 22 pistol and no will to kill.
We’re going to have to think outside the box on this one. I don’t like this ugly that’s crept into FDL. I admit to being a rather obnoxious bitch at times,..I feel bad about those times and apologize. Sincerely.
There’s got to be some “group hunch” on letting in the ugly.
I’ll probably mangle Lily Tomlin’s wonderful line; Reality, that’s just a group hunch,right?
Peace

So lets get this straight, the public option is the gold standard. Why the difficulty in allowing insurance companies (I know the bad GUYS) sell policies across state lines? Dare I mention tort reform… you know where the libs love Lawyers more than Doctors!

I have no doubt that Jane was searching for the best Lawyer first rather Doctor during her medical ordeals. Seriously, we in the United States DO NOT value Doctors enough at present, and it will only get worse with the piece of shit health bill being rammed through Congress!

Yeah, I am angry.

If all insurance companies sold at the standard of the highest state, I’d be all for it. It seems that this crossing state lines business is about avoiding regulation.

The states that have had tort reform may have had a decrease in costs for insurers, but that did not lead to decreases in premiums.

Agree with you about this bill being garbage though. I think progressives and teabaggers should join to kill it and then audit the Fed. Then we can go back to our corners and come out fighting again.

It is going to cost far less than the status quo of continuing the insurance takeover of the US health care system. The insurance company bureaucrat who stands between you and your physician, rationing your health care for profit will make sure that he denies you treatment enough to ensure his bonus. Medicare has less that 5% overhead, so over 95% of Medicare money actually goes for health care. Medical insurance companies, on the other hand have almost 40% overhead, so you get 60 cents of health care for every dollar you pay in insurance premiums, beside having an insurance company bureaucrat interfering in your health care and dictating to your physician whether you can have treatment or not.

Those 55 to 64 do, in fact, have the option of single payer….. Medicare.

Face it. We do not have a government of the people, for the people and all that silly feel good stuff. If not now, when? Looks like never. Throw us a scrap or two, we will be grateful.
This great nation of ours puts out more money for health care than anyone, but our life expectancy is the worse. Do we turn a blind eye to this? Do we watch our loved ones suffer after being denied the most basic of services. I get real sad, then I get mad, I know I must work to change this, but an reluctant to start.
The young will reign. Their faces will be strong and sturdy, still young,full of dreams I want to barr the door, allow no more desperate people to take advantage of the pain and hunger that we the humane must fight.

What I’ve not thought about is how the WH and the PTB might actually try and COUNTER that being.

I’ve thought about that and I don’t think they are concerned. The Netroots are only a problem insofar as they can exert influence over low information voters. And let’s face it, the Netroots haven’t really made a significant change in the political thinking of the vast majority of the American voters. The methods Democrats use, often quite effectively, for countering the Netroots are the choreographed Kabuki shows they present on the Hill. Those phony displays of a democratic legislative process routinely divide and frustrate the progressive wing of the party. A couple establishment Democrats pretend to support some progressive initiative and then they conveniently abandon it for whatever reason (60 votes, bipartisanship, etc.). It catches people flat-footed every time. If you really want to consider the kind of people we’re dealing with here, then think about John Edwards. I mean, think about what it takes to routinely lie like he did. That’s the level of the kinds of lies that are fairly routine in the political world. Rational people are quite susceptible to those lies, particularly ones who haven’t been following American politics for very long.