Coburn is killing the debate by going on and on and on with Health Scare

Just came from your Action post – this is a great idea…today not good but maybe tomorrow…
And re your intro:

The anti-choice brigade have set up a big tent in the Democratic party. They seem to think that the rest of us should be celebrating their presence because they’re not Republicans, and hand them the keys to the Democratic majority.

AFAIC, they are not Democrats. They only play Dems on tv.

Sigh. Just read Jon Walker re: latest assault by Nelson.

Do we have anything set up in Nebraska yet?
Ok, I’m in. Heading over to your links, Jane.

Ben Nelson Threatens A Filibuster Over Stupak Amendment

Following Jon’s link – Snowe demanding more anti-individual changes – including pre-emption of state programs, fewer taxes, etc., in the name of “affordability.” Ay-yi-yi….

I have a better idea: KILL THE BILLS. Both the health care bills are much, much worse than doing nothing. If nothing passes, Congress will have to revisit the issue, because the current situation is untenable. If they pass this pile of dung, everyone will say “we DID that” and that will be the end of it. Worse still, these bills feed the monster. Insurers will have even more money to corrupt the system. What a terrible tragedy and deception.

This is the greatest lunacy in public life in my 64 years on the planet. Passing either bill absolutely guarantees Republican victory in 2012. They could run a freaking hamster and win. Wait until the mass movement against the mandate kicks in. The progressive blogosphere will be utterly discredited as well. Ninety percent of the blogs are locked into a suicidal “win vs. lose” dynamic on this issue. That’s not the way it is. The way it is, is, we’re going to reap the whirlwind.

I am just astounded that more people don’t get it. If this dreck passes, watch out.

That’s great. Another man who doesn’t give a shit about our uteruses. Maybe big strong man can “kill the bill” for us? Oh he doesn’t have a plan, you bitches can do that for him while he has a pizza on the sofa. After you rub his feet.

Ladies, we’re on our own, even at FDL.

I’ve tried clicking on a few of the links to get to the new site, but I keep getting this:

You’re logged in already. No need to register again!
The blog you were looking for, http://onevoiceforchoicecom.firedoglake.com/ doesn’t exist.

It worked earlier today. Is the problem on my end, or are others having the same problem?

*sigh*

I guess the site is down again.

Jane, I’m a man, and I give a shit about reproductive rights. Of course, being a man hasn’t helped me get passed a technical problem I’m having just getting to the site… help.

Still perking right along for me.

Knoxville, the first link in Jane’s post was broken, but I scrolled down to the next one, and that worked. Signed up, submitted, and everything.
Probably been about ten minutes ago…

Uh-oh – just tried again 3:34 pm CST–down. Well, it’s brand-new; a few growing pains are de riguer, no?

I appreciate that so much Knox.

Thanks for restoring my faith. And there are good men here at FDL. Lots of em. Shouldn’t dismiss them all. It’s just gobsmacking that this kind of casual, dismissive attitude toward women’s rights should still be acceptable on a liberal blog. We’ve been working our butts off on this and it’s always like pushing string uphill until something catches on. Having the nihilists jump in and tell us lil’ladies to stop wasting our time and do what they say is both demoralizing and infurating.

I tried two links in this post, not working. I tried the one in the earlier post and a link at another place, both of which worked earlier today. Not working now. Seems like the problem is that, rather than send me to the sign up page, it’s now sending me to a register at Firedoglake page (the one I linked @ 6). Minor kink in a new system. Just wanted to let Jane know and give her as much info as possible.

The Democrats are responsible for the failures of birth control. For years they sat by thinking the entire nation would accept abortion as the #1 birth control method and they did nothing to improve sex education, accept to allow the right to destroy any thing before it. Now everyone with a brain is tired of the results. Young people today, an overwhelming percentage fo them, don’t have the brains or desire to parent children. Those poor families that simply turned around the hopeless malaise they started, have no hope to improve on it. The notion that either part is right or wrong on this is what is so despicable. They are both guilty of stupidity for framing this the way it is and I hope not another penny goes to those who think this is a Dem vs Repuke problem. It’s wrong on every count.

Jane, I hate to say it but frankly I’m fed up of the Democratic party. We voted in a majority last year for what – for backwards steps on women’s rights, fake healthcare “reform” that bring mandates to increase profits, and the escalation of wars? I feel like progressives messed up big time last year when websites like Daily Kos started giving all of their support to a candidate (Barack Obama) rather than to progressive ideals. Time after time I’ve been nothing but disappointed and I don’t really see a light at the end of the tunnel for getting ANYTHING we want. Maybe I’m being a pessimist, but seriously – what have we gained for all our efforts? I can say honestly right now, that I may not EVER vote for a Democrat again (much less Republicans) if the Stupak Amendment is a part of this weak reform bill.

These assertions so diverge from verifiable reality as to raise questions of delusional perceptions or decades of information deprivation.

On this planet, the past two decades saw Rethugs and religious bigots mount a sustained assault on sex education. (when they weren’t mounting their male pages and altar boys). The worst Federal assaults on sex education were signed into policy/law when Rethugs controlled Congress and the WH.

We’re having some problems with Godaddy’s DNS servers (I know, I know, we should’ve switched before). So we’re switching servers for the OVFC site. It should be up in a bit, and in the mean time I’ve changed the links.

Let me give a little shout re: the phone bank this Saturday morning in San Francisco. It’ll be chill, we’ll provide snacks, and get lots of good work done.

See: http://action.firedoglake.com/page/event/detail/wrlx

Oh and also – I’m a man, and I’d rather see the whole bill fail than pass with the Stupak Amendment.

Wow, I’m astonished at your take here? I wish I had read that before donating to your site earlier this week. I’ve watched you for years but to put this one on all men, or any men for that matter, is plumb wrong. You ought to go out and look at the abortion “industry” that has blossomed under the freedoms that have been given pregnant women over the years. Doctors putting their lives on the line because some think it’s a cool thing to get knocked up, then just get it sloughed down some drain. I have not seen women fight for more education or a common sense approach to this problem for decades. I am truly amazed at your one-sided narrow-minded comments. Every one has a right to their freedoms, until it is at the expense of everyone else. Our abortion industry borders on genocide. When the hell do you fight for women to learn how the hell their bodies work and how to avoid the mess they get in when they don’t take care of themselves? Before you go around attacking men, you ought to make damn sure you understand what sort of problem you have with women and abortion. I’m astounded by this.

very politely, you are wrong. Perhaps you are not old enough to remember efforts, before the Christian Right got powerful enough to defeat them, to bring realistic sex education to schools, etc. In fact, “sex clinics,” “explicit” sex education classes were among the issues the CR used in their first steps to taking over the R party, running for school boards.

Nor, speaking as a woman old enough to remember pre-Roe acquaintances and friends seeking abortions, (after NY legalized it, travelling there was common), has anyone in the Democratic party or the feminist movement ever considered, let alone promoted, abortion as the “#1 birth control method.”
The only places I know of where abortion was the primary method of birth control was the USSR and the Eastern bloc countries. Repeated abortions were common in those countries in the ’60′s and ’70′s, but that has never, never been true in the United States.
You must be new here. We generally try to check our facts before posting provocative statements. There’s usually someone reading who can refute stupidity.

Dr. Kirk! I believe I owe you a beverage!

Thanks.

Jump Back!

muttlike – as a guy, I can say that it takes two to get pregnant so it is partly the responsibility of the MAN to get educated. Attacks on abortion rights is an attack on women’s rights, plain and simple. It’s another way of “keeping women in their place”. I know this is cliche at this point, but I can assure you with full confidence that if men were able to get pregnant, abortion rights would be in the U.S. Constitution engraved in stone. Everyone should be outraged about this dangerous amendment.

Perhaps you would like to take your personal attacks on Jane somehwere else.
She’s been fighting hard for quite awhile now, and she got frustrated and angry.

Having to read your ignorant non-facts cannot have helped her mood.

It didn’t help mine.

I know this is cliche at this point

That doesn’t make it any less true.

agreed! :)

A lot of very young women have no one to ask, are embarrassed, and afraid. They don’t know anything and sex ed has been kept out of the schools by the right wing. The winger parents won’t talk to their children because it’s “dirty” so these kids are just out there experimenting. It’s not men – it’s ignorance. I’m old so I remember girls who just had to have those babies and their lives were over. No abortion rights, no nothing.

Oh and also – I’m a man, and I’d rather see the whole bill fail than pass with the Stupak Amendment.

I recall saying the same thing the morning after H R 3962 passed with the stupak in it (diary here):

We cannot let the morally weak failures that are the Democratic Party leaders get away with pulling off this Reverse Rope-a-Dope.

We cannot let them declare victory and collect contributions for their failure, not when they deliberately planted in this Affordable Health Care for America Act the seed that turns what appears to be victory – what should have been victory – into a stunning defeat.

Oh c’mon Twain, you know if those teasin’ bitches just kept their knees together this wouldn’t be a problem /s

That seems to be the thinking. Shameful.

Exactamente. That is absolutely the R way of thinking about anything that remotely concerns (gasp, blush!) s-e-x.

I’m the grandfather of four brilliant young women, none of whom have ever been impregnated thankfully. I’ve lived through the sixties and burned my draft card next to my mate who burned her bra. I’ve seen a lot though I am wrong often enough, and never shy about admitting it. I am mindfully aware of the right wing assualt over the years, but this is not the answer. The answer is about morals and principles and not allowing others to dictate what sort we teach our young women to respect. Abortion is a huge problem and neither side has been able to offer any solution that is acceptable. Simply paying for more fetuses to get ripped from women’s wombs who don’t have a clue, is not one of them. Where is the argument here for more education? I’ve not seen that one in decades. Where are the options, or do you simply accept defeat on education and demand wholesale slaughter? Because those are the only two choices apparently.

Good Lord, a woman’s or girl’s reproductive rights are or ought to be the sine qua non for all and lesser rights. Those rights – not the Divine Right of Kings to rule – are the only rights from which all other rights naturally spring. When all women have and own their right to reproduce or not to reproduce, and only then, would anyone else be entitled to exercise their so-called right to argue on behalf of their own personal beliefs. Women’s reproductive rights are more important than anything else, certainly more important than any abstractions, which should be obvious, which maybe is too obvious for many to admit. Hey, while I’m here:

When I was growing up the Dow-Jones Industrials Average’s number was three digits; there was a 90% income-tax bracket; the Interstate Highway System was less than half what it is now; I borrowed money for college under the National Student Defense Act; Medicare and Medicaid were just enacted; and I was told that insurance companies controlled most of the wealth in the US.

I apologize for not providing any facts or links and for appearing naive about the health-care reform issues and ‘debate’, yet I find the ‘national debate’ awfully pathetic only because the issues seem to be uniquely insular and domestic; that is, they have no direct impact on National Security; on the ‘military-industrial complex’ (any more so than on any other business or similar model); on the CIA; the FBI; the Department of Defense; the Department of State; on the telecom industry; and so forth. We won’t be requiring their testimonies at hearings. Those always-implacable ‘players’ aren’t playing, so those complications don’t exist. The issues impact only citizens and residents, physicians and the health-care milieux (including pharmaceuticals), and insurance companies. Oh, and elected politicians.

If the insurance companies lose their huge revenues, what happens? How much of their capital underwrites and subsidizes economic sectors everywhere in the world? Does anyone here know? I’m guessing that the entire world needs that capital, and without it every economy and society would collapse. If that’s true or somewhat significant, it’s not the kind of thing we’re likely to hear except at the margins of reportage; and it’s much too frightening to think about, to know that our economies are held hostage by insurance’s capital wealth. It’s terrifying, in fact, since that capital is secured in the form of premium payments, i.e., up-front cash.

If single-payer health care, or a widely affordable, government subsidized public option, becomes enacted, and makes health care available to hundreds of millions of citizens and residents, can the medicines which the pharmaceuticals manufacture keep up with the demand? Can they manufacture enough? For everyone in the world who would need the medicines? They probably can’t manufacture enough; no one can yet, and it has nothing to do with cost, profit, or proprietary rights. The raw materials don’t grow on every tree and they can’t be synthesized out of the air; they can’t be manufactured as easily as animals are slaughtered or GMO corn and soy bean seeds are sown. So, who gets what limited supplies of medicines which can be manufactured and made available? The society and economy that can afford them? Who would that be? (No, I’m not worried that some Canadians will fly planes into the Mayo Clinic.) Would rationing be acceptable? Or would rationing become a ‘new’ and even more divisive issue?

The insurance companies, to be sure, will be left with a very large group for their present Medigap coverage, the supplemental coverage they sell to Medicare Part B subscribers; but I doubt that they’ve been working out those numbers, considering all the unknowns floating around on public display, and the insurance companies have no useful reason to mention any of that. Whenever Day One’s sun sets, it can’t be too soon, or rather, it better not be, from their vantage point. And that seems to be the genuine political issue comprising the social and economic issues. Every reform and solution is fraught with untold danger, probably because our economies have grown beyond our abilities to manage them or harness their excesses.

The deep confusions and perplexities shouldn’t be too surprising since it was Franz Kafka, himself, whose day job consisted of more or less single-handedly inventing and work-shopping around Europe the modern insurance paradigm and its industry.

Yes, so? Is that news? Men are not educated about this at any level, and as fathers we haven’t done much to stem the tides. But that gives no one the right to make wholesale dispatches of bigotry like I read here, no less,
from a woman with a major media image. If those things were said about any other group, hate crime charges would be filed. I’m trying to understand why no one else is outraged frankly?

It’s not a matter of accepting – it’s fighting every day against stupid, backward nitwits who think that if you teach about sex that kids will go out and actually have sex. As nearly as I can tell, they’re having sex anyway. You may not like that, and your granddaughters may be shining examples of virginity, but in today’s world don’t count on it. They won’t stay that way.

I don’t think I will. Are you the censor? Is this a spot only for those who agree and who all hate men? I would like an answer, and maybe I’ll oblige? If you only want people who will get together and ridicule men, make that public. That sounds like what you want to say. If you put it out there and can’t discuss it or back it up, what’s the point?

Sorry, your facts are just wrong. Apparently you were alive, but still, your facts are.just.wrong. Wrong.

And don’t give me any of this s–t about “morals and principles.”
The RW has also fought like dogs to prevent education about and distribution of contraception, including for married people.

You may have “burned your draft card,” you may have granddaughters, but your credibility on this issue is nil.

Yeah, if a woman disputes your facts and conclusions, particularly about an issue that affects her far more than it ever will or can affegt him, well, that means the woman “hates men.”

I said go away because we have serious issues to discuss here, and you are wasting our time and bandwidth.

No one here hates men. You do realize, I assume, that men have made the laws at every level that do nothing for women. We have a few token women in the halls of Congress now but not enough to get done what needs to be done. ALL the laws for generations have been made by men who seem to have the attitude of “if I get you pregnant, then by gawd you stay pregnant.” Have you noticed that insurance companies pay for Viagra but not birth control for women???????????

Simply saying I am wrong is not a discussion, though I have little doubt it makes you feel better. What is wrong? I’ll tell you what’s wrong, people gathering together with only those who are willing to see things exactly how you would like them to see things. That is the Democratic Party way. If you think Obama, Clinton or any of the other facile toadies in the Dem Party are responsible for fighting for women’s rights, well you are wrong. If you fail to gain the support of men who actually do want women to be responsible for themselves, and any babies they bring into the world, you need to get on a new track, but this won’t don’t get to where you’re going.

Well, I realize everything you said, but I thought the discussion was to find a workable solution for young girls with unwanted pregnancies. Sure if you want to look at history, we can do that, but this about a feasible plan, because simply the status quo is not a solution. If anyone was paying attention they would have seen this. The Democratic Party has swept this under the rug for too long. Unless all you women here have given up thinking that all young women aren’t capable of making informed decisions? I know they are and I know it takes a lot of work to keep them from having to face this. But blaming this on men is not going to solve a single thing and you all ought to know that. So, if you simply all want to continue hating men and blaming them by yourselves, let me know because that is what I think I’m hearing.

Why don’t you discuss the problem with your buddies in the Republican Party and see if they will stop screaming against anything that helps women? I’ll bet you could get Coburn, McConnell, and some of the other Neanderthals to assist you.

You are not hearing what you think you’re hearing.

Nobody here is blaming or hating men. You need to get past that; it’s preventing you from seeing what is really being said.

As long as you talk about our “hating men”, you will not be, and do not deserve to be taken seriously here.

Obviously you came here with an agenda – this discussion is about a specfic amendment and how to stop it, not a general discussion ab out how to prevent abortion.

You have hijacked this thread. I’m done.

Jane, I think he meant that this health insurance bill Ought to stopped right now. I tend to agree. There are so many fingers in this pie that it’s lost all it’s flavor.
Now, here comes Tom Carper “crafting a compromise” that involves co-ops and triggers in all but name only.

And Summers declaming on “no jobs for years”

Now here comes Afghanistan to upstage this bill, and add more debt to crushing load so that the Democrats can cut the social programs….again, maybe worse than Bush did.
Let’s face it, our government is the front man for the military industrial complex and we won’t get anything for the people of this country except corporate slavery.

Make ‘em start over and keep Baucus’ fingers out of the pie.
He’s right this is going to make things worse and only be a bailout for the insurance corps.
By the way, I called my senators this morning.

Twain, I’m beginning to wonder if this is just another name for that “men’s rights” troll, David something, who kept interrupting us a few weeks ago. He’s so fixated on that meme, I wouldn’t be surprsied.

I think this thread has been wrecked. We’ll just have to abandon it and get together again later for a serious discussion.

Why in the name of Mother Earth would I care what you think about anything? I see you as a superficial, man-hating person who isn’t interested in dialog and you are apparently only happy when you are “highjacking” this board. You want to insult me and talk smack, you go for it. I am not swayed in the least by your attacks or opinions.

“That’s great. Another man who doesn’t give a shit about our uteruses. Maybe big strong man can “kill the bill” for us? Oh he doesn’t have a plan, you bitches can do that for him while he has a pizza on the sofa. After you rub his feet.”

I’d sure love to hear anyone can deconstruct this and not come out believing it was written by someone who hates men? I agree, it’s sad, and, to me, who listened, read Jane’s stuff and contributed because I believed she was someone who had it right. I would love an explanation, not just more ‘cheerleading.’

How does one setup a Phone Bank?

I’m pro-life (I hate that term), I’m male, I’m Catholic, and I want to help oppose this incredibly subversive and punitive Amendment.

BTW, I do realize those things you list, but I still can’t figure out what they have to do with anything? Prescription Viagra? Prescription birth control? I never said all men are on the correct side, but do you honestly believe that all women support your POV? Do you know who the leading voters are of anti women’s rights are in this country? Women are just as likely to vote against a women’s right to choose as a man. You’d think you’d tackle the women first before alienating all men who are on your side for the most part.

When the hell do you fight for women to learn how the hell their bodies work and how to avoid the mess they get in when they don’t take care of themselves?

and i thought virgin births were part of mythology and men had something to with it as well.

I’m the grandfather of four brilliant young women, none of whom have ever been impregnated thankfully.

never been impregnated? are you talking of brood mares here? are you determined to piss people off today?

But that gives no one the right to make wholesale dispatches of bigotry

you meant misogyny, surely? that’s what i get from your comments.

I don’t think any but the male chauvinist control freaks want the bill to pass with Stupak attached. The day the amendment passed I said I’d work to kill this bill if it made it through conference. The same goes for the Senate bill if these bozos add an equivalent.

Oh, a misogynist troll. How interesting. I thought they were found mostly down by their bridge exposing themselves to people.

No one here, not one of you, is willing to look at the problems with our situation. We live in a Republic where we don’t get everything we want. Public sentiment for a long long time has wanted to make abortion “rare” and give women the same chances men get. We have serious problems: we have young girls getting 3 or 4 abortions before they are out of their teens. We have a family services system that is broken at every level. The foster care system is not even worth discussing as I believe even this group knows how sad it is. If you don’t, go visit one and see for yourself.

If we organized for education and for being willing to stand up for the things that everyone agrees in, that women deserve the same as men and we know we have a lot of work to do. I teach biology and I can tell you, our kids, for the most part, haven’t a single clue how reproduction works and they are illiterate about things that affect their health and safety and our sanity. If we organized as viscerally for education, we might even solve more than unwanted pregnancies. The emphasis is off and the audience is off the rails as far as the proximal cause to this issue. After sixty years on this planet, I would have thought this would sound differently. It’s always easier to blame the “other” even if he’s your brother.

women don’t have abortions as a hobby. it’s not like a trip to the mall. sheesh.

Some newborns are a sight to see. They come into this world without a hope or a prayer and cling to a breathe to become the miracle of life. You cannot look at this issue from a singular perspective. For whatever reason, nature decided women would bear the burden of populating the planet and dictating how we would behave. Don’t abandon your allies or grace in rendering your work. You don’t have to be a misogynist or a Republican to want to stop the insidious problem we should be discussing. The status quo ought to bother everyone. You can’t be a proponent of peace, and absolve industrialized abortions. Not at the epidemic levels they are at now. Sorry if I offended anyone, but it’s a problem I have worked a long time to change.

Seriously, is there a link to setup your own Phone Bank? What’s involved?

Respectfully, you have NO idea whether or not your daughters or granddaughters have had abortions. And, respectfully, abortion is only a “huge problem” for someone who cannot get one when it is needed. For anyone else, it is perhaps a religious issue (god knows why) or a non-issue. And that’s that.

With all due respect, it’s not that simple. There is the somewhat sticky problem of where we all decide to draw the line on what counts as life. Nobody is advocating that a woman be allowed to abort a 3-year old, and almost nobody advocates for late-term abortions, because socially we’ve decided that’s too far along the chronology of biological maturity. Yet the arguments for such a thing aren’t any less objectively applicable; financial burden, unpreparedness, not being a real person (something that is itself an arbitrary metric), etc.

Now let me make this completely clear, the irony, that typically pro-life politics happen to also be the pro-war politics and anti-contraceptive politics, is not lost on me one bit. As such the genuineness of what constitutes “pro-life” in U.S. politics is by and large a complete farce; a fiction (which is why I hate the term so much). There’s nothing pro-life about most of the pro-life movement. It’s mostly just anti-sex, and even that is heavily slanted toward anti-female sexuality (all while we constantly “sell” it).

But there is a very real and moral question about just what distinctions we decide to draw between what constitutes a life and what doesn’t, and what responsibility for stewardship there is for that life for every party; if any. From the individual life all the way up to the community it is a part of.

When I last looked at the research, there wasn’t any significant correlation between the legality of the procedure, and it’s per capita use; when looking at worldwide data. That indicated to me that if one were to be advocating for a material ban on the procedure, it would be nothing but an empty victory of faux-principle; no more effective than any other dubious material ban on something that is a demand-side issue. Secondly, there appears to be a strong correlation between access to safe, effective contraceptives and the incidence of abortion; in that use of abortion drops as the access to contraceptives increases. In dispassionate terms that means that abortion is essentially seen as simply post-facto birth control; a substitutable good. At least in the majority of cases; conditions of sexual abuse, medical complications, etc. excepted.

As with so many other things, if a person wanted to be an effective pro-life advocate they’d abandon the demonization and marginalization of women who find themselves having to face that decision, and instead be utterly preoccupied by prevention, prevention, prevention.

Unfortunately, the Stupak Amendment is exactly the antithesis to this reality. It’s a punitive measure that specifically targets already one of the most marginalized groups in our society, won’t in fact save the lives of unborn children, and does nothing to improve the failed system of bad-faith education and action that compels conditions forcing women to come face to face with this choice.

In short, yeah it is in some way about choice, but goddamn what a shitty choice to have to make.