Reconciliation.

It’s what’s for dinner.

It’s a little like watching violets grow out of someone’s toenails, no?

RESULTS: 67% say creating a public option to lower costs, create competition is top priority- vote now! http://bit.ly/3Dy2Rp #hcr

And thats despite how much Fox News and Tea Bagger attempts to change people’s minds? Never mind the money the insurance and drug companies are spending.

Dem Party better have prepaid funeral insurance cause it is a dead duck if there is no ‘robust public option’. Maybe in long run it’s better.

Sounds to me ike Harry Reid is telling Obama he’s got no choice. He’s up for re-election in 2010, Obama’s not.

Sure, just what I about to do, give the Dems my cell phone number. Harry knows full bloody well that the VAST majority of the country wants single payer not some watered down so called “robust public option” this “survey” is so that the Dems can send demands for cash. It is bullcrap.

Well, at least we found 25 gallons of water on the moon…so everything is OK.

Seriously, this is proof that ObmamRahma has been punking his “signature legislation” from the beginning.

But hey! We got the billions for the moon shot!

If Brit Hume has to correct Billo on the fact that the PO is popular – on Fox News, no less – it must be popular.

Fuckin’ idiots as far as the eye can see…

Yep. And the votes are ALWAYS there for the BILLIONS for the MIC and their two wars. And the votes were always there for the BILLIONS in tax cuts for the really, really, really, rich. And the BILLIONS in tax subsidies for the energy companies seem to always get the votes too.

Health care for plain folks???? Not so much.

You know, I want single payer but this just isn’t true. If you’re going to assert facts based on polling data, please back it up with reliable current polls. Most put it between 30-50% which is not a figure to be sneezed at, but it’s not the “vast majority.”

Every time I think I’d like to go work on this issue, this kind unrealistic assessment of what the true situation is makes me think the better of it. It’s just not something I want to be working against all the time.

If you’re going to assert facts based on polling data, please back it up with reliable current polls. Most put it between 30-50% which is not a figure to be sneezed at, but it’s not the “vast majority.”

i have not seen that figure, “30-50%”, do you have a link? i’d like to learn more.

what i have seen is more consistent with nomolos’s comment (links below) — what i’d call on average a solid majority — but if i’m misinformed or there is more/better data somewhere, i’d love to be corrected. thanks.

Single-Payer Poll, Survey, and Initiative Results
63% of Americans Can’t Pick the Public Option Out of a Three-Suspect Lineup
“Bait-and-Switch” in the Polls

……

and while i’m asking so many questions, wrt reid’s poll question, “a public option to lower costs,” how much is the current version of the public option supposed to lower total costs (total national health expenditures)? i don’t remember seeing that anywhere — but i’m very tired so i could easily be misremembering. thanks again.

I’m cueing up William Stepp’s arrangement of “Bonaparte’s Retreat” (what Aaron Copland swiped intact and used, initially without credit, for the “Hoe-Down” section of his score for “Rodeo”).

How many Americans know, exactly, what single payer is? Probably about the same number (if not fewer) than know what the public option is.

This is like those “34345% of all American high schoolers can’t find Antarctica on a map!” stories that the press loves to use every so often to get people all scared about The Sad State Of American Youth.

Viewed from without the US debate on health care reform seems rather perplexing. How is it that intelligent people can make unintelligent decisions.
Having lived in three different countries with universal health care, and having recently watched the T.R. Reid doco ‘Sick Around the World’ on PBS Frontline, the ‘debate’ seems more bizarre.
Is it American narcissism? No one can do anything better. Adopting foreign ideas is unpatriotic?
Or is it that most Americans information comes to them from commercial media in sound bites?
It’s sad really, such wonderful people so badly confused.

Expat, a lot of it is due to the for-profit insurance companies’ strength in the US. They killed health care reform (and helped put the Republicans in charge of Congress) in the 1990s via their “Harry and Louise” ads.

T.R. Reid’s book The Healing of America lays it out rather clearly.

would i be wrong if i guessed you didn’t check my links to see what the actual polling questions were?

Thank you for sharing and I often wonder the same myself. It is truely disheartening to witness false information promoted by the insurance companies to keep profiting at the expense of health of Americans……?

reid and nancy both need to be ran out of office

the demos are so timid even the repubs can control them now

americans voted for change and got reid and nancy and a lot of timid demos

demos switch over to be independent the demos no longer represent you they only pretend to to get your votes

time for a third party in america neither party represents the voters but both parties represent corp fascism

we even call our people heroes for fighting in corp wars for profits

wake up military folks you are being used for profits for the few

jobs are so bad in america many join for health insurance and a job

to kill for a job now has meaning

Is anybody sure that HARRY can read? He sure in the hell can’t listen. Did He need a poll to tell Him the people want a public option. Someone should make a big message board and hold in front of Him saying You are the Majority leader. He could have taken the crayons and coloring books away from the Repubs. if He wanted to.

One set of polls ranging from 2007-2009 show a pretty consistent preference for the single payer between 60-75% of respondents. Whereas those currently in favor of PO is roughly in the 50-60% range.

http://www.wpasinglepayer.org/PollResults.html

The clear interpretation is that a vast majority do not want the for profit system that exists now.

Also consistent with these results is that among this majority some would opt for the PO if they felt that was the most that could be achieved but that that is where you draw the line.

As far as Reid is concerned he has been ineffectual as a leader and shown intolerable judgement as regards the scum from CT. I see no disadvantage from carrying out a campaign to unseat him now. It will focus his mind on doing what the public wants, including neutering that insect from CT.

what a calm, reasoned, fair-minded question, selise!

your measured tones and impeccable links will surely get the respectful, thoughtful response they deserve from those of whom you are inquiring!

because if one can’t argue against the tone of the comment questioning the prevailing FDL groupthink, then one will surely argue the facts, right?

. . . 4 hours later . . . PW must still be off reading your links . . .

Why do I feel trapped, like I walked into one of those 16 theaters in a box on opening night intending to see the newest Star Wars eggstravaganza only to discover myself sandwiched between two card-carrying members of the clutching-hankie set dabbing at the corners of their eyes as they watch the newly re-released in color Civil War romance Gone With The Public Option, starring Harry Reid as Clark Gable and Nancy Pelosi as Vivien Leigh?

Y’all remember Harry’s famous line, doncha?

Pull up a chair and let’s talk. What’s on your mind?

Here’s the latest from RJ Eskow posred at Huffpo.

Play it again, Sam.

Here’s the latest from RJ Eskow posted here.

Hooray, I finally figured out how to do the slinky linkie!

A lot depends on the wording of a Poll. What do you think the percentages would be if a poll offered the following choices?

– “a reform providing for Medicare for All, paid for out of tax revenues”

– “a reform providing for a Public Option sold on an exchange open only to the uninsured, paid for by tax revenues and including mandates forcing people to buy insurance and subsidies”

– “a reform providing for a Public Option sold on an exchange open to every individual and family, paid for by tax revenues and mandates forcing people to buy insurance and subsidies”

– “a reform providing for private insurance sold on an exchange open only to the uninsured, paid for by tax revenues and including mandates forcing people to buy insurance and subsidies”

– “a reform providing for private insurance sold on an exchange open to every individual and family, paid for by tax revenues and mandates forcing people to buy insurance and subsidies”

– “a reform only forcing insurance companies to stop their worst abuses such as denying insurance due to preconditions, rescinding insurance policies of people after they sick, and other serious abuses.”

I think a fair interpretation of the polls showing a majority for the PO is that these polls don’t show anything about how it stacks up against Medicare for All because the bias of those who constructed them didn’t allow a Medicare for All choice in the survey. It’s also a fair conjecture that the heavy majority who selected a PO option in these polls are people who prefer Medicare for All and who selected the PO because it was the nearest thing to it. There have been a number of articles on “bait-and-switch” in the polls, including one by Kip Sullivan and one by myself.

As usual, great reply, selise. I noticed this in Jane’s comment:

“Every time I think I’d like to go work on this issue, this kind unrealistic assessment of what the true situation is makes me think the better of it. It’s just not something I want to be working against all the time.”

Wasn’t sure what to make of “this issue.” I think the issue we’ve all been working on including Jane is hcr, which certainly includes Medicare for All as one of the options for reform. So, is Jane inadvertently confessing that she’s spent very little time covering or even coming to understand the “single-payer” aspect of hcr because she feels funny about the attitudes of those who favor single-payer?

I hope not, because this would mean that she judges the validity of political proposals based on the personal characteristics and attitudes of those who hold them rather than on what the proposals actually say.

This isn’t the first time I’ve noticed comments from Jane indicating her ambivalence toward single-payer. On the one hand she says she’s in favor of it in principle, on the other she’s always saying “but,” and then generally gives some reason relating to the personal characteristics of single-payer people which marginalizes both the proposal and the people who hold it.

I also notice that Jane hasn’t yet replied to your comment even though it was a perfectly reasonable one and even though she’s often replied to you in the past. In the past week or so, I’ve also directed a number of comments to Jane which I felt were well thought out and raised some questions about whether the tactics she’s planning for the Senate are the right thing to do. I haven’t seen any reply to these yet. Just repetition of the debatable “reality” that we have no chance to kill a bad hcr reform bill in the Senate.

If they take all of the best aspects from the House and Senate proposals and leave the stupid behind after they put the final frankenbill together it might end up being worth supporting it. But does anyone see the current dysfunctional monstrosity that is Congress working to make it better or worse?

perhaps it is something like in the old fable:

“Sayeth the Fox – those grapes were probably sour anyway!”

on a somewhat related tangent, I was graced with a response by Jason Rosenbaum, way back in a forgotten thread here.

great work, you and selise, and others – sometimes I wish I had more of your tact, patience, reserve, and impeccable forum manners! But sometimes I wish I liked marzipan, too . . . (?)

wording is indeed a key factor. if you comb through pollingreport.com, you find that support for a ‘govt plan’ runs about 50-ish%, but add the word medicare in there and support goes up.

“Would you favor or oppose the government offering everyone a government-administered health insurance plan — something like the Medicare coverage that people 65 and older get — that would compete with private health insurance plans?”

Favor Oppose Unsure

10/5-8/09
62% 31% 7%

9/19-23/09
65% 26% 9%

8/27-31/09
60% 34% 6%

7/24-28/09
66% 27% 7%

7/9-12/09
64% 29% 7%

6/12-16/09
72% 20% 8%

as far as i can tell, nobody has ever conducted a poll asking how many people would give up their present insurance if they could have medicare instead. i’d like to see somebody commission that poll, or one very much like it. how much does a poll cost anyway?

Thank you spork, both for the support and the compliment. But, I’m afraid that I don’t hold a candle to selise when it comes to tact.

Hi hipparchia, Thanks for the run-down. I’ve observed that too. I don’t know what a national poll would cost these days. But, I think Daily Kos commissions polls frequently. Wonder why they haven’t seen fit to include that kind of question?

thanks spork!

yeah, i think jane was mistaken re the polling data. but, of course, am always happy to be corrected and learn something new if it’s me who is mistaken.

about not giving a damn?

thanks for the rj eskow slinky linkie. not to freak you out or anything, but i think rj is wrong. from what i can tell, romneycare is mostly better than what’s coming out of congress! (and i live in MA).

thanks letsgetitdone. re the first part of your comment, i have no idea what’s going on re that issue. but that’s been the case now for over a year. just trying to contribute in as positive a way as i know how, even if that is mostly dissent.

re defeating the bill. if it’s your position that the bill ought to be defeated, i don’t think it matters, from the pov of deciding what action to take, if the bill can be defeated. because even if it isn’t defeated, by opposing it you have distanced yourself from something you think will be a failure or hated by the public. if you don’t opposed it, then why should the public ever trust your advice with healthcare reform? my 2 cents anyway.

But does anyone see the current dysfunctional monstrosity that is Congress working to make it better or worse?

simple answers to simple questions.

no.

out gov appears to be broken. legislation involving the FIRE industries does not go through congress with the goal of benefiting the citizens.

what’s not to like about marzipan???!!!

you and spork must not have yet seen me really lose my cool. i get pissed off just like everyone else. sorta the electronic version of going postal. only with a keyboard though, so no danger. *g*

thanks to both of you for the kind words. sometimes i have to really bite my lip as i type!

I, to, find it disturbing that Jane has had her teeth knocked out by the cynical House Bill. She has nort yet found her feet and time is wasting to oppose the gorging of a true PO.

Wonder why they haven’t seen fit to include that kind of question?

heh. can’t disturb the carefully crafted narrative.