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	<title>Comments on: Why the Democrats Can&#8217;t Pass A Bill Without a Public Option, By the Numbers</title>
	<atom:link href="http://fdlaction.firedoglake.com/2009/11/11/why-the-democrats-cant-pass-a-bill-without-a-public-option-by-the-numbers/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://fdlaction.firedoglake.com/2009/11/11/why-the-democrats-cant-pass-a-bill-without-a-public-option-by-the-numbers/</link>
	<description>Politics for liberal newsgeeks</description>
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		<title>By: selise</title>
		<link>http://fdlaction.firedoglake.com/2009/11/11/why-the-democrats-cant-pass-a-bill-without-a-public-option-by-the-numbers/#comment-60924</link>
		<dc:creator>selise</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Nov 2009 19:03:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fdlaction.firedoglake.com/?p=4988#comment-60924</guid>
		<description>i think it all depends on the quality of the regulation. maybe something like what we have in MA with our exchanges and mandates? (if we&#039;re lucky, as far as i can tell the MA reform is far superior to the house&#039;s bill -- and an aide in my rep&#039;s office assures me that since we already have a waiver from the hhs, we can keep our exchanges. hard to believe i&#039;m glad about that.). anyway, i live in MA and so far have not been kicked off of my insurance (even though the monthly cost of just one of my scripts is about the same as my monthly premium $500). but that&#039;s nothing like the cost of a really expensive illnesses, i might try to track down some data/info on those cases here.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>i think it all depends on the quality of the regulation. maybe something like what we have in MA with our exchanges and mandates? (if we&#8217;re lucky, as far as i can tell the MA reform is far superior to the house&#8217;s bill &#8212; and an aide in my rep&#8217;s office assures me that since we already have a waiver from the hhs, we can keep our exchanges. hard to believe i&#8217;m glad about that.). anyway, i live in MA and so far have not been kicked off of my insurance (even though the monthly cost of just one of my scripts is about the same as my monthly premium $500). but that&#8217;s nothing like the cost of a really expensive illnesses, i might try to track down some data/info on those cases here.</p>
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		<title>By: selise</title>
		<link>http://fdlaction.firedoglake.com/2009/11/11/why-the-democrats-cant-pass-a-bill-without-a-public-option-by-the-numbers/#comment-60922</link>
		<dc:creator>selise</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Nov 2009 18:51:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fdlaction.firedoglake.com/?p=4988#comment-60922</guid>
		<description>LOL, that&#039;s a hoot. i was just using that as an example that single payer activists are, at least in my experience, concerned with universal healthcare rather than being single payer absolutists. single payer may be the best policy, but it&#039;s the means. universal healthcare is the goal. drsteveb is the pnhp activist i was referring who pitched hr 193.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>LOL, that&#8217;s a hoot. i was just using that as an example that single payer activists are, at least in my experience, concerned with universal healthcare rather than being single payer absolutists. single payer may be the best policy, but it&#8217;s the means. universal healthcare is the goal. drsteveb is the pnhp activist i was referring who pitched hr 193.</p>
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		<title>By: Jane Hamsher</title>
		<link>http://fdlaction.firedoglake.com/2009/11/11/why-the-democrats-cant-pass-a-bill-without-a-public-option-by-the-numbers/#comment-60918</link>
		<dc:creator>Jane Hamsher</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Nov 2009 18:36:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fdlaction.firedoglake.com/?p=4988#comment-60918</guid>
		<description>We get it.  You don&#039;t care if sick people have nowhere to go if they get &quot;dumped.&quot;  It&#039;s &quot;apocalypse for political advantage&quot; and it&#039;s a tough sale around here, but that isn&#039;t stopping you.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>We get it.  You don&#8217;t care if sick people have nowhere to go if they get &#8220;dumped.&#8221;  It&#8217;s &#8220;apocalypse for political advantage&#8221; and it&#8217;s a tough sale around here, but that isn&#8217;t stopping you.</p>
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		<title>By: Jane Hamsher</title>
		<link>http://fdlaction.firedoglake.com/2009/11/11/why-the-democrats-cant-pass-a-bill-without-a-public-option-by-the-numbers/#comment-60917</link>
		<dc:creator>Jane Hamsher</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Nov 2009 18:34:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fdlaction.firedoglake.com/?p=4988#comment-60917</guid>
		<description>I know what &quot;dumping&quot; is:
&lt;blockquote&gt;
figuring out new creative ways to deny these sick people medical coverage.&lt;/blockquote&gt;It&#039;s going to happen, PO or no.  So where to they go if there isn&#039;t one?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I know what &#8220;dumping&#8221; is:</p>
<blockquote><p>
figuring out new creative ways to deny these sick people medical coverage.</p></blockquote>
<p>It&#8217;s going to happen, PO or no.  So where to they go if there isn&#8217;t one?</p>
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		<title>By: stephhunter</title>
		<link>http://fdlaction.firedoglake.com/2009/11/11/why-the-democrats-cant-pass-a-bill-without-a-public-option-by-the-numbers/#comment-60907</link>
		<dc:creator>stephhunter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Nov 2009 18:00:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fdlaction.firedoglake.com/?p=4988#comment-60907</guid>
		<description>You forget one important thing, politicians go back on their word all the time.  So it will pass and it will do amazing things for the system!  http://cli.gs/23yYaM/</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You forget one important thing, politicians go back on their word all the time.  So it will pass and it will do amazing things for the system!  <a href="http://cli.gs/23yYaM/" rel="nofollow">http://cli.gs/23yYaM/</a></p>
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		<title>By: selise</title>
		<link>http://fdlaction.firedoglake.com/2009/11/11/why-the-democrats-cant-pass-a-bill-without-a-public-option-by-the-numbers/#comment-60899</link>
		<dc:creator>selise</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Nov 2009 17:45:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fdlaction.firedoglake.com/?p=4988#comment-60899</guid>
		<description>here&#039;s a better explanation of what is being described here as &quot;dumping&quot; (i think it&#039;s important to clarify, because now i see that the word usage is confusing) from &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.consortiumnews.com/2009/111009.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;robert parry&lt;/a&gt; (the article is about other stuff, i&#039;m just pulling out this bit for the purpose of explanation):

&lt;blockquote&gt;Put crudely, the public option in its current form would vacuum up the chronically ill and thus &lt;strong&gt;spare the insurance industry not only the expense of paying for their care&lt;/strong&gt; but also the administrative costs of figuring out new creative ways to deny these sick people medical coverage.

According to the CBO, the planned “insurance exchanges” thus would give private insurers an estimated 24 million new – and relatively healthy – customers, many with government subsidies that would go directly into the coffers of the insurance industry. Without the public option, the industry might get six million more customers but they would include lots of sick people.

That means the current legislation with a weak public option is a win-win-win for the insurance industry.

Its most lucrative market – large employers providing group benefits for employees – would be protected from competition from the public option; the surviving public option for individuals and small businesses would be barred from achieving savings by tying payments to Medicare rates; and the public option thus would get stuck charging higher premiums than private insurers because it would end up with the sickest part of the population, the CBO says.

So, from the perspective of an insurance executive, what’s not to like?&lt;/blockquote&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>here&#8217;s a better explanation of what is being described here as &#8220;dumping&#8221; (i think it&#8217;s important to clarify, because now i see that the word usage is confusing) from <a href="http://www.consortiumnews.com/2009/111009.html" rel="nofollow">robert parry</a> (the article is about other stuff, i&#8217;m just pulling out this bit for the purpose of explanation):</p>
<blockquote><p>Put crudely, the public option in its current form would vacuum up the chronically ill and thus <strong>spare the insurance industry not only the expense of paying for their care</strong> but also the administrative costs of figuring out new creative ways to deny these sick people medical coverage.</p>
<p>According to the CBO, the planned “insurance exchanges” thus would give private insurers an estimated 24 million new – and relatively healthy – customers, many with government subsidies that would go directly into the coffers of the insurance industry. Without the public option, the industry might get six million more customers but they would include lots of sick people.</p>
<p>That means the current legislation with a weak public option is a win-win-win for the insurance industry.</p>
<p>Its most lucrative market – large employers providing group benefits for employees – would be protected from competition from the public option; the surviving public option for individuals and small businesses would be barred from achieving savings by tying payments to Medicare rates; and the public option thus would get stuck charging higher premiums than private insurers because it would end up with the sickest part of the population, the CBO says.</p>
<p>So, from the perspective of an insurance executive, what’s not to like?</p></blockquote>
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		<title>By: selise</title>
		<link>http://fdlaction.firedoglake.com/2009/11/11/why-the-democrats-cant-pass-a-bill-without-a-public-option-by-the-numbers/#comment-60897</link>
		<dc:creator>selise</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Nov 2009 17:39:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fdlaction.firedoglake.com/?p=4988#comment-60897</guid>
		<description>thanks. i wasn&#039;t expecting the end of strife or bad decisions. just a chance to together move and build in a positive direction. i see the work for universal healthcare as a very long term effort. and what can i say, i get easily enthused.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>thanks. i wasn&#8217;t expecting the end of strife or bad decisions. just a chance to together move and build in a positive direction. i see the work for universal healthcare as a very long term effort. and what can i say, i get easily enthused.</p>
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		<title>By: mikesong</title>
		<link>http://fdlaction.firedoglake.com/2009/11/11/why-the-democrats-cant-pass-a-bill-without-a-public-option-by-the-numbers/#comment-60875</link>
		<dc:creator>mikesong</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Nov 2009 17:07:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fdlaction.firedoglake.com/?p=4988#comment-60875</guid>
		<description>What do all you supposedly proggresive obsessives not get about the public option (or are you just trying to be a pain in the ass)? Everyone from Rush Limbaugh to Ed Schultz knows the purpose of the public option: 

IT&#039;S A TROJAN HORSE FOR SINGLE PAYER!!!

Weaker than we like? Of course. Possible that it won&#039;t be opened up to everyone for a long time? Sure (fight on Wyden!).  But the fact is it&#039;s the first legislation in American history that starts an experiment with single payer and even contains instructions for how the HHS secretary can open it up to everyone.

Wake up people!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What do all you supposedly proggresive obsessives not get about the public option (or are you just trying to be a pain in the ass)? Everyone from Rush Limbaugh to Ed Schultz knows the purpose of the public option: </p>
<p>IT&#8217;S A TROJAN HORSE FOR SINGLE PAYER!!!</p>
<p>Weaker than we like? Of course. Possible that it won&#8217;t be opened up to everyone for a long time? Sure (fight on Wyden!).  But the fact is it&#8217;s the first legislation in American history that starts an experiment with single payer and even contains instructions for how the HHS secretary can open it up to everyone.</p>
<p>Wake up people!</p>
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		<title>By: indiepro</title>
		<link>http://fdlaction.firedoglake.com/2009/11/11/why-the-democrats-cant-pass-a-bill-without-a-public-option-by-the-numbers/#comment-60854</link>
		<dc:creator>indiepro</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Nov 2009 14:17:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fdlaction.firedoglake.com/?p=4988#comment-60854</guid>
		<description>clearly, it is. 

If the public option was never about controlling costs or offering competition to the insurance industry in order to make premiums more affordable, why do we need a public option?

Why fight for a public option that is doomed to failure? A public option, that when it dies, conservatives can point at and say see, the govt run program, and those like it sucks?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>clearly, it is. </p>
<p>If the public option was never about controlling costs or offering competition to the insurance industry in order to make premiums more affordable, why do we need a public option?</p>
<p>Why fight for a public option that is doomed to failure? A public option, that when it dies, conservatives can point at and say see, the govt run program, and those like it sucks?</p>
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		<title>By: ProgressiveObserver</title>
		<link>http://fdlaction.firedoglake.com/2009/11/11/why-the-democrats-cant-pass-a-bill-without-a-public-option-by-the-numbers/#comment-60851</link>
		<dc:creator>ProgressiveObserver</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Nov 2009 10:12:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fdlaction.firedoglake.com/?p=4988#comment-60851</guid>
		<description>There may be a way to not have the cake but for Democrats and Americans in general to still eat a good chunk of it. If the Democrats don’t have the courage or the votes to fix the bill it should be put out our misery. But immediately afterwards push through half a dozen much smaller bills that reform the private health insurance and pharmaceutical &lt;strike&gt;rackets&lt;/strike&gt; industries i.e. remove anti-trust exemptions; drop anything like extended drug monopolies, tight rules on medical loss, no more getting booted out of your coverage because of a pre-existing condition, etc. 

No amendments.

Advantages: Cost to the American people, zero dollars, zero cents. Bills are short, easy to follow, easy to whip. Completely reverses the political dynamic. Want to protect the right of private insurers to dump sick patients? Harder to do when you can’t blame some culture war distraction. Creates space for Americans to understand what the &lt;a href=&quot;http://writ.news.findlaw.com/hamilton/20091112.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;&lt;strong&gt;Hyde amendment&lt;/strong&gt;&lt;/a&gt; was, and for passions to cool. Creates some leverage to finish the work in the near future by providing the most efficient and cost effective method of covering those who remain uninsured having proved change can be profound and fiscally prudent.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There may be a way to not have the cake but for Democrats and Americans in general to still eat a good chunk of it. If the Democrats don’t have the courage or the votes to fix the bill it should be put out our misery. But immediately afterwards push through half a dozen much smaller bills that reform the private health insurance and pharmaceutical <strike>rackets</strike> industries i.e. remove anti-trust exemptions; drop anything like extended drug monopolies, tight rules on medical loss, no more getting booted out of your coverage because of a pre-existing condition, etc. </p>
<p>No amendments.</p>
<p>Advantages: Cost to the American people, zero dollars, zero cents. Bills are short, easy to follow, easy to whip. Completely reverses the political dynamic. Want to protect the right of private insurers to dump sick patients? Harder to do when you can’t blame some culture war distraction. Creates space for Americans to understand what the <a href="http://writ.news.findlaw.com/hamilton/20091112.html" rel="nofollow"><strong>Hyde amendment</strong></a> was, and for passions to cool. Creates some leverage to finish the work in the near future by providing the most efficient and cost effective method of covering those who remain uninsured having proved change can be profound and fiscally prudent.</p>
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