Beyond outrageous.

Don’t know if anyone else is experiencing this, but the congresscrap have turned their phones off and have no one answering that I call. They know they can’t come home again. They know their own pitiful existences are threatened by people that they are killing.
But don’t worry, it will all work out in the end. You will have your millions of bribes to pad your box with.

This is beyond belief.

And when is the IRS going to reevaluate the Catholic Church’s tax status?

is there any chance that any of the 57 cpc members who promised to vote against this bill, and accepted the thousands of dollars raised for them based on that promise, will actually vote no?

This may well be the beginning of the end. To hell with pitchforks, it just might be time for the real fucking thing now.

But then again, I can’t help but think this country deserves all of this shit. Nobody gives a damn enough to vote, to get involved, so I guess this is what is deserved.

New low for me today. Never been this politically disheartened before.

they’ll evaluate The Church when they also evaluate LDS.

When hell is frozen solid. I want the Catholic Church out of politics and out of women’s bodies. This is so disgusting and wrong. I am not Catholic and I should have a choice about following their rules.

I can’t get over a conversation I had with a coworker recently, someone who considers herself a feminist and waves the fem-flag every chance she gets. Every year, our company ‘adopts’ a family through Catholic Charities and as part of it, we get a description of the family and what their needs are. This year, it’s a family of five with two sets of twins, aged 18 months and 3 years. And she was bitterly going on and on about ‘people who don’t know when to stop’ and ‘if you can’t feed them, don’t have them’ etc. etc. I reminded her that people’s circumstances can change in the blink of an eye, going from ‘good job, good bennies’ to food stamps and on the welfare rolls and in major debt from medical bills. I think there is a whole lot of ‘I’ve got mine/screw you’ out there.

I’ve got a few thoughts downstairs on the morality of Stupak and the USCCB wanting to make abortion the province of the rich. The prophet Ezekiel called this kind of “fine for me, but not for thee” mentality “sodomy,” and Amos roundly condemned those who piously set up one system for those who can pay and another for those who cannot.

And when is the IRS going to reevaluate the Catholic Church’s tax status?

What’s FDL Action PAC’s tax status?

Just to set the record straight. The Catholic Church is opposed to abortion for the rich too.

This is it. I am at war with the coochie control brigades and the american taliban and the catholic fucking church and all anti-choice churches and institutions and individuals and craven democrats and obama. Enough is fucking enough. This aggression against women will not stand, man. Enough.

Now, now, there you again with the liberally biased interpretation. Can’t be having that, doncha know. The right wing is right now working on fixing that shit, gonna fix those “interpretations” to better fit their own world view get rid of the liberal bias.

Yep. My sister has been saying for years (and she is absolutely correct) that probably 90% of us are two to three paychecks away from being on the street with nothing.

And the same people that want to ban abortions (and family planning and contraceptives) are the same ones quite willing to complain about people having too many kids.

We’re going backwards with this.

While we’re setting the record straight, that’s not what they are proposing be voted on, is it?

Peterr, thank you for that post. It gets to the heart of things. But for these people in Congress it’s not even about religion, although many of them say that it is. It’s about power and control. I think that these wingers believe that if they lose control of women, they are finished. They don’t really care if some woman they don’t even know gets an abortion.

there is a whole lot of “ive got mine/screw you” pretending to be something else. some kind of political ethic or morals. I dont see any conflict between feminism and being a self obsessed right wing asshole. Thats the problem with having “beliefs” and not ethics, or a good intelect.
americans dont have a moral conscience anymore they have fucking “beliefs” and those can be anything you want them to.

You’re correct. That’s NOT what they’re voting on, and what the Bishops endorsed. What they’re voting on and what the Bishops endorsed is basically making abortions the province of the rich, as it will make the poor and working class unable to afford an abortion, while the rich will still be able to get theirs at will.

My grandparents were divorced in 1922 when my mother was two and my aunt just born. When the church “ex-communicated” my grandmother, her response was said to be “if the church doesn’t want me, I’ll be damned if they get my daughters”.

Now Gran was a very sweet and genteel woman of the South. The kind ya don’t mess around with for sure.

the’re only trying to get poor people abortions banned here dude.

Pretty right-wing definition of “feminism.”

Good for your Gran. I can imagine my gran doing the same thing although we are not and have never been Catholic – thank the goddess. I have such contempt for a church that dominates women but their priests can’t keep their hands off children. Their moral standards are way below mine.

Thank you for your passion about this sell out, Jane.

I was thinking today, too, about how Obama kept voting “present” as a state and federal senator. Not the heart of someone with strong convictions.

Only 36 House Reps stood up against US blanket condemnation of Goldstone report. Wow.

Only when morality and human rights are pragmatically and economically convenient are they backed by our leadership.

ReThugs Anthem: Let’s Party Like It’s 1699 !

there are a lot of right wing feminists. i was thinking mainly of the one issue people. it dosent have to be a womens issue. could be guns, or whatever. americans seem to be mainly motivated by one issue for me and fuck everyone else thinking.

Not a dude.

Yeah, and we wound up being raised in one of the more liberal Christian denominations (Disciples of Christ).

I asked one time in Sunday School what the Christian Church believed (probably looking for some dogma) and was surprised to be told “Each person comes to God and Christ in their own way. We feel there is no one way to do things that excludes all others”

Seemed to be a good way to believe.

And when is the IRS going to reevaluate the Catholic Church’s tax status?

Don’t mean to harp on this issues, but aren’t 527 organizations tax exempt? How would what the Catholic Church is doing in this respect be different from a 527 organization?

or 1499 even

Scorching!

the lessons about enabling entrenched interests with continued support, no matter what they do, have wide applicability.

sorry. just a habit. also the name twain i associate with a burnside moustached, white haired proto – marxist

You’re a dudette? Didn’t know that! =D

Shhhh … don’t want it getting out that all are equal in the Eyes of the Lord, that would run the ReThug Gameplan.

Absolutely right – The fight is for affordable healthcare that contains a public option so that all Americans are free of the fear of illness and have an opportunity for prophylactic healthcare without risking their financial well-being. The Catholic Church supports that and has for some time.

Yep. That’s me.

As long as they get to call the shots about what a woman can do with her body.

the problem with the catholic church is that there is supports, and then there is Supports.

While this does suck, I’d prefer a wait and see on what happens in the final bill. According to Greg Sargent of the plumline, this could be dealt with in the conference mark up. Allowing this vote and it’s likely passage only gains passage of the bill to the floor. Those anti choice Democrats would probably not vote on the bill’s final passage and it won’t matter because that is when just 50 votes plus Joe Biden would be required for passage. The real question is whether progressives and liberals will unite to remove the measure from the final bill.

Jane, have you thought of running for Pres of NARAL?

Fact Check – Divorced Catholics are not excommunicated.

Isn’t providing access to legal medical procedures part of providing healthcare for all?

When a church is saying “yeah, but you can’t do that” then they are no longer proposing “…prophylactic healthcare without risking their financial well-being.” They are imposing their morals on me and everyone who disagrees with them.

Twain !

Which insufferable talking head will be the first to say, during the first snowfall – “Didn’t the Libruls say that global warming is a present danger ?”

I’m 57 years old and I have never heard of any bills that got improved via the Conference Committee

I didn’t even mention that. Don’t understand your reply.

That’s right, they’re not welcome in Church and cannot partake in Communion but those are just minor issues …

Maybe not in today’s church but the church in 1922 did.

Backing you up. And I have an actual pitchfork in my closet.

I’ve written my congresscritter asking – telling! – him to vote against any bill that contains Stupak’s piece-of-crap amendment in it. No health insurance reform is worth that.

I’ve also registered my view at the WH, asking – telling! – them that if this bill defunds abortion and family planning, or if it bans undocumented immigrants from buy insurance with their own money, that it’s a piece-of-crap that needs to be vetoed. And that I’m tired of the liberals always having to compromise to keep the conservative bigots happy in their imaginary world.

Just so long as that prophylactic health care doesn’t include actual prophylactics.

The USCCB has said “Unless Stupak’s amendment passes, we are opposed to this health care reform.” They have said that this is a dealbreaker for them.

By their own words, they have said this is not ultimately about affordable health care — it’s all about restricting abortion.

And the ones who pay the price for this decision by the bishops will not be the folks wearing mitres. It will be the women in the back alleys.

Good morning, Petro. How are you? The nutters won’t admit to global warming even when they are standing hip deep in alligators. Unfortunately, we’ll be there, too.

CSpan is sure confused about what a live feed is. More confused than is possible.

We need a party for the liberals, since the Dems have mutated into the GOP circa 1960, and the GOP have gone off the edge.

I’d like the working motto to be
If you won’t get off the tracks, we’ll drive the f*cking train over you!

That’s true and I don’t argue that all Catholics are perfect or even good. But the Official Church has consistently supported the right to unionize since the 1890′s. It has called for workers to be paid a living wage that can support their families since that time as well. It honors and supports far people who seek to alleviate poverty, homelessness and injustice.

And when is the IRS going to reevaluate the Catholic Church’s tax status?

Sorry I harped on this assertion re tax exempt status for the Catholic Church @ 10 and @ 29.

I just wanted to highlight the point at the end of this post about Planned Parenthood and NARAL being in the veal pen and say that that seems more relevant to this discussion:

They knew this was coming since at least July 1 — and they didn’t even raise money for the fight.

Why can’t they use all those servers that they use to tap everyone and datamine everything to keep CSpan functional when a few extra million people watch?

.

This pat-themselves-on-the-back press conference by the Dems is sickening

Where the Rubber meats the Roe’d

*With due apologies to Punaise*

Democracy

“We must be the change we wish to see in the world.” Guess.

We might as well get started, the Dems aren’t gonna help us.

OUTSTANDING !

Namaste, Petro!!

I agree with all that is being said here. And I believe that access to birth control and abortion is a human right not to be determined on the whim of a majority.

However permit me to introduce a dissonant note. My experience with young women today leads me to wonder just how passionately the country favors abortion rights. Many many incursions on those rights, even murder, have in recent years been permitted to pass without arousing more than momentary protests.

I know I risk overgeneralizing but, in speaking with young women of all levels of economics and education many many strongly reject the title “feminist” and most seem pretty ignorant of the history of the egregious suppression of women by our culture in fairly recent years and don’t seem to care much about activism, even in defense of abortion rights.

In contrast we older women and men seem to remain united in grave concerns over the erosion of abortion rights. I suppose it is because so many have been there and know how awful it was.

I don’t know that much about the workings of NARAL or Planned Parenthood. They are clearly failing in their mission but it in part may be because there is just not that much support among average women.

This vote may well be a done deal and catastrophic for health care. But in my view it is just one more example of the erosion of investment in protection of these rights.

Still serving up praise for themselves on cue, and gutting the bill in the background? This is disgusting, gotta leave the pretend government ($-Corp)

The difference between the two is that donations made TO the Catholic Church are treated as tax deductible. In return, the Church is not supposed to engage in “political activities.” For tax exempt organizations that DO engage in political activities, donations TO them are NOT tax deductible.

Hope that helps.

Y’all know that if you are going to ‘point the finger’ it should be at the Obama Rahm Admin dontcha? I said here -FDL/Seminal- that people ought to be withdrawing ALL support for Obama but nobody responded.

Until Obama acts like the leader of a movement for change -as he campaigned- instead of a ‘leader of the party’, the citizens of the U.s. are going to keep going down the road of authoritarian capitalism.

That Republicans will be allowed to offer floor amendments but progressive Dems not -think Weiner,Kucinich,etc.- should tell everyone just how corrupt -ethically- the Dem Party is.

Bottomline is it’s all about the money.

Thanks, I thought I might have overdone it with a double pun … *g*

AND THE KILLIN’ GOEZ ON AND ON AND…

Citizen Hamshewr and the Firepup Freedom Fighters:

Time for the progressives to kill the bill and force Obama out of the closet…he can’t triangulate with the fascists like Clinton did ‘cuz there aren’t enough of ‘em and he can’t get re-elected without the progressive base of his party. Time to blow up the old Democratic Party and make a new one. Unless the so-called “progressives” in the House cave in, they can take control from the White House but it will take some balls.

KEEP THE FAITH, THE STRUGGLE GOEZ ON AND ON AND…

Namaste SD !

It is not the best way to go, but we need to live to fight another day. I want a health care bill that we can build on. I am not prepared to fall on my sword over one issue. Hell, you could find any number of issues to call it quits over. the question really is does this bill move the ball forward so we can add to it in the future. I think it does. so I am hanging in there.

would the afl-cio also cut support for cpc members who vote “no” on this bill?

i’m trying to understand the apparent cave by progressives, especially my rep.

And as they’re congratulating themselves, don’t we have to ask if the vote today means anything until/unless the Senators get their act together? What will come out of the Senate – if anything ever does – will be worse than the garbage that Reid now wants to start debate on the Senate floor with. Then HR 3962 as it passes today will be watered down even more in conference.

Count me in.

I received emails from planned parenthood – 2 on October 30, one Nov 2, one nov 6, and another today. Here’s an excerpt from Nov 2:

Catholic bishops are doing all they can to force anti-choice amendments into the health care reform bill — and they’re instructing their congregations to help them.

Stand up for women’s health and tell your senators and representative to reject this dangerous effort from the Catholic bishops.

here’s today’s EMERGENCY action call:

LATE-BREAKING NEWS
Right now, Congress is considering an amendment to the health care reform bill that will eliminate choice for millions of women.
Call your representative now at (202) 225-5315 and ask him or her to oppose the Stupak amendment!

NARAL sent me emails on Oct 20, 26, 28, and again today, with today’s message saying it is an emergency to defeat Stupak’s amendment.

Selise !

Great question !

We’ll see.

At some point can we as liberals acknowledge that there is a difference between the consequences of abortion and the consequences of other medical procedures?

Citizen SouthernDragon:

You are right but third party ain’t the answer…takin’ over the old Democratic Party is doable as long as a Democrat is in the White House and the fascists party doesn’t have enough congress-critters for Obama to coalesce with…the “change” hasta come from inside the House of Representatives and it can start this weekend if 60 progressives stand together and kill the bill.

Would you like to elaborate?

I was in high school when a young woman who wanted an abortion had to get it from some asshole that used a coat hanger in a back alley. This shit going down today takes us back a century in time. Is that what the Democarts of today all about? If so fuck them.

Third party’s definitely not the answer.

We’ll see how the progressive caucus comports itself mos ricky tic.

Women are NOT stupid. They understand consequences very well. They get to decide.

I’m still trying to understand you’re original question. I gave $100 to that fund. And I thought the pledge was they would vote NO on any bill without a ROBUST Public option. Even by their own standards, this bill withouth the Medicare +5 does NOT equal ROBUST. So I’m still stuck on your first question. And wondering if I can get my $100 back. And yes I’m serious. I didn’t donate it for this pile of heaping shit.

One of the things that made a fight for a public option possible was because there were no “veal pen” validators occupying the health care space. Nobody knows who HCAN is. The White House tried to press the unions and other veal pen groups into service but progressives standing there ready to shoot on sight made everyone else back away for fear of losing their own credibility.
*

God, I love Jane~!

If this passes, I will e-mail everyone I know to call Pelosi & Hoyer’s office on Monday and demand an answer.

We should be able to get 100,000 folks calling in, easily.

If men could get pregnant, abortion would be a sacrament – Florynce R. Kennedy, 1973

This amendment would be a direct slap at about 52% of the population. We ought to be able to rally around that even without the limp Dems in the Congress.

My all time fav quote.

If men could get pregnant, abortion would be a sacrament.

Amen.

Can we as human beings at some point admit that calling a pack of cells mere hours after conception “a baby” is just as ridiculous as calling a baby mere hours prior to birth “not a baby”?

Wanting to equate the consequences of destroying a few cells mere days after conception with “murder” is no less outrageous than trying to equate killing a baby mere days from birth with “abortion”.

count me as another who will be calling, writing, faxing and emailing

The uncomfortable fact is that abortion is a procedure that ends a pregnancy. If the operation does not occur a living human being will be born when the pregnancy comes to term. I know that the question of when life begins is one that divides people because we really don’t know. Since Roe v. Wade was decided technological advances have made the point of viability become earlier and earlier in the gestation period. So the question in the woman’s right to control her body may become one of where does her body end and the body of a another viable human being begin?

You DO NOT KNOW a living human being will be born. A HUGE percentage of pregancies end naturally in the first trimester. I’ve seen estimates as high as 55%.

Good grief !

You might want to go hang out with the Operation Rescue people.

Don’t let the troll hijack the thread folks.

That is not the question. Does a woman have the right to decide what to do with her own body????? Yes or no?

Thanks for the reminder, SD.

That’s the good (gold) old days when the rich could always find an abortion…either local or take a trip out of the country…..

Petrocelli!

We’ll see.

i think not if they all cave. there won’t be any fingerprints to discover. :(

You are right about miscarriages. My wife and I went through several between the birth of our first and second child. But there is no way to predict what pregnancy will end with a birth and which will not. Barring miscarriage a child naturally is the result of a pregnancy.

akin’ over the old Democratic Party is doable as long as a Democrat is in the White House and the fascists party doesn’t have enough congress-critters for Obama to coalesce with…

thats the dogma of your church, and it is ritualistic to recite it when worldly events cause distress.

and like other dogmas, it doesn’t really make sense, nor does it have to.

realistically, the corporatized (D)’s hold all the keys to the castle of the Party, know all the secret passages and trapdoors, and can comfortably hold off all attempts to take over indefinitely. Indeed, after 20 years or more, they are the Party.

one thing they cannot stop is a grassroots defection and 3rd Party movement and party building.

Your voice will count when you can get pregnant….Im old enough to know about girls bleeding to death in the dormitory….

Then we deal with the lot.

She does have the right to control her body. But in the case of pregnancy the uncomfortable question arises: where does her body end and the body of another person developing inside her begin?

Nice dream. What are you gonna do until this 3rd party is viable?

Try to appoint a Legal Guardian for the fetus…see how well that works and learn something about “person”.

I hate to say it, but I was expecting this nonsense, along with amendments to ensure that teh gay & aliens can’t buy into the PO … what a sorry bunch of Reps !

I hate to even answer you but that is not my decision, your decision or the decision of a bunch of old men wearing dresses.

If the operation does not occur a living human being will be born when the pregnancy comes to term.

No.

In some cases, this is true. In others, it is not. Some blastocysts never develop properly, some embryos never implant, and others implant but have such significant problems that they are expelled. Whether you call it a miscarriage or a spontaneous abortion, you cannot simply says every pregnancy will end in a live birth after 9 months.

And tragically, there are also fetuses that will never live beyond the womb, but are not expelled in a miscarriage. In some cases, they threaten the life of the mother, or her ability to bear healthy children in the future.

You also said this @76:

At some point can we as liberals acknowledge that there is a difference between the consequences of abortion and the consequences of other medical procedures?

You left out the part about acknowledging that there are consequences to the absence of abortion. Until the Catholic church deals with that part of the equation, pastors like myself will question their concern for women in general and poor women in particular.

LOL: Which men in dresses do you mean? The Catholics or the Supremes?

Take the pledge

I’m sure you also know that the reason they were forced into that position was and still is a moral structure that prizes appearance of respectability (whatever that is) over caring for and loving people imperfections and all.

concern for women? Since when?

Good point about the politics of convenience. Most of our elected officials think the sellout politics of ease and convenience is the same thing as a principled stand. It most certainly is not. It is political cowardice.

If JFK wanted to write Profiles in Courage about our current politicians it would be the shortest novel in recorded history. I am so tired of risk adverse people who are just sending future generations an IOU and deferring the heavy lifting we so desperately need today.

Thank you so much for your insights, I’d love to ask Stupak what he thinks of a test in Canada, where they check to see if the Fetus has Down’s Syndrome. If it does, the Dr. talks to the parents about abortion V. bringing the Down Syndrome Baby to full term.

I’d like to know what Mr. Stupak thinks of this … in fact, I’m going to e-mail him right now.

It’s called Rahm telling them there will be no money from the Party for their re-election if they don’t co-operate.

That is a truly uninformed and pompous assumption….or, say, jumping to foregone conclusions.

never. give. up.

:)

……..

i just got off the phone (for the second time today!) with my rep’s dc office. the person, btw, who answered the phone was extremely nice and well informed (didn’t know the answer to only one of my questions, which is really really good because i ask hard questions).

if i understand correctly, since MA already has a waiver from the HHS for our 2006 reform, we can keep our exchanges (commonwealthcare for subsidized plans and commonwealth connector for un-subsidized plans) and if people buy their insurance through either of the MA exchanges, insurance for abortion services can still be obtained. no federal funds are used for this in the subsidized plans, it’s something the the state does.

don’t take what i write here as the absolute truth, it’s just my understanding of what i think i heard. wait till we see it in writing.

the other thing i asked about is that the subsidies in MA are, for the most part, much better than what the national proposal, at least from my read of the nov 2 cbo letter. i was told that we would be able to keep our higher subsidy levels.

all in all, it sounds like MA will be getting more fed health $$$ with this bill while getting to keep our version of the exchanges, etc (which imo look far superior to what is being designed nationally) …. and although i didn’t ask about this, it may help explain my rep’s otherwise inexplicable support for the bill.

The Catholic Church did deal with that for years with mixed results. In countries where like Ireland, the British Empire and the United States that philosophically looked on the body as evil many abuses happened (viz. The Magdaline(sp?) Sisters). In others, the record was better.

It’s called Rahm telling them there will be no money from the Party for their re-election if they don’t co-operate.

my rep has a pretty safe seat. to threaten someone like him, it would probably take the threat of a primary.

KILL THE BILL! Kill this f**king travesty and start over in the spring with single-payer.

Perhaps. But why did these girls feel so alone that they were forced into the back alleys?

With the conservadems Rahm likes to run it doesn’t sound like that’s much of a threat in your rep’s case.

Just to clarify, is the Stupak amendment then to ensure that Federal funding does not directly go to pay for a State mandate ? Or is this a wrong question ?

Since all of their money will have to come from their corporate overlords I guess that will work. Nothing more is going to come from me.

Take the pledge

I’m still trying to understand you’re original question. I gave $100 to that fund. And I thought the pledge was they would vote NO on any bill without a ROBUST Public option. Even by their own standards, this bill withouth the Medicare +5 does NOT equal ROBUST. So I’m still stuck on your first question. And wondering if I can get my $100 back. And yes I’m serious. I didn’t donate it for this pile of heaping shit.

have to ask jane. my understanding is that there were three groups of pledges. 57 for the july 30 letter. 3 more (i think) for a later letter. and the fdl pledge whip. the fdl fundraising (which last time i looked was over $400,000) was for all three groups.

i don’t know anything about any of the other reps, but was trying to track down the story regarding my own (who was one of the 57).

Good grief. Go away.

No, Stupak will ban funding for abortions in the P.O. and in plans that get any kind of fed. subsidy on the Exchange—which means just about everywhere. Private plans will start dropping it like a hot potato.

i think the wrong question. my understanding (please include all caveats and disclaimers here) MA is a special case because we already have a waiver from the HHS. what applies here does not apply to other states.

Thank you…he is writing his own dramatic version with no facts.

i don’t think so either (but could be very wrong). mcgovern has a good rep here and is known for being accessible, etc.

its easy – one simply gets a good feeling by not voting for war criminals, who spend $10 billion a month on pointless, deadly, criminal wars and then claim that any reform that helps Americans with health care has to be ‘budget neutral.’

watch, in 2010 millions who voted (D) in 2008 will do as I do.

Thanks Deb and Selise, for the clarifications.

The Stupak amendment also requires private insurers participating in the exchanges not fund abortions, or more accurately, to not have abortion services as part of the coverage offered on the exchanges. At least that’s my understanding.

All I’m trying to point out is that the Catholic Church for all its faults has never taken the position of other so-called conservative groups that life is sacred from conception to birth. Catholics do recognize that people are entitled to dignity and support throughout their lives.

More from Jane upstairs
I Wonder What Bart Stupak’s Donors Think About Financing Anti-Abortion Activists?

do as you do, you mean stay home?

That’s what I’m thinking anyway.

Why do you say that?

Citizen gerryphillyesq:

The pseudo-philosophical bullshit you have been spewin’ here is responsible for our political situation in this country which kills thousands here and around the world every day…you have absolutely no conscience and if there were such a thing as a soul you wouldn’t have one a those either.

Some insurance companies will smell profit and step up to offer supplemental coverage for reproductive health outside of the exchanges. Planned Parenthood could even form a subsidiary that does this on a not for profit basis.

It stinks, reproductive health is an essential part of health care.

Expect companies that offer such plans to be targets of Operation Rescue, etc.

You do realize that the Catholic Church is totally and completely opposed to all means of birth control except for abstinence and the “rhythm method” don’t you? If that’s not a statement that in their eyes life begins at conception, then I need to go check my dictionary once again since words that have meanings are changing again before my eyes.

So by sitting home and letting even worse people get elected solves what? In x number of years your 3rd party is gonna come along and pull off a miracle, right?

I hate the evil of 2 lessers every fuckin’ 2 years, but rooting out the entrenched corrupt pols and their policies isn’t going to happen in 1 or 2 election cycles. These people have had 40 years to construct this corrupt web.

one more thing i forgot to add…. i was told that the pro-choice caucus is still scrambling to block stupak’s amendment. but i have no idea what that means.

Haha, MORE Norske, MORE.

LOL, was hoping you’d chime in here!

I keep typing something to respond to him (or her), then changing my mind. You do it well, sir!!

More I say!

What bullshit specifically?

See 139

but it affects people who are already getting subsidized insurance — these aren’t people who have the $$$ to purchase supplemental insurance. i’m with revdeb, if this passes, we’ve got to step up and donate to provide free abortions to those who need them. it’s a poor second, but it’s the least we can do.

Agreed. But I’m hoping this pile of dung DOES NOT PASS.

Kill this thing. Start over next year. And if not next year, run the entire 2010 campaign on health care. Single payer. Let the voters decide. Yeah, I know that’s a risk, but dammit, I just believe in my heart if Americans wade through the piles of shit thrown at them and see what Medicare for All means, it would WIN at the polls. I believe it.

Yes I am aware of that and the Catholic Church makes no secret that it does believe that life begins at conception. It also believes and teaches that a married couple engaging in sex open to procreation is in essence assisting in a creative act with God and that all of this is a good thing.

Granting for the moment your dubious statement about the body = evil and the applicability of that to this discussion . . .

So having tried compassion for a while, the bishops have given up on it? Having tried to look at the whole community, the bishops have given up on one part of it? Having considered the wholeness of the body of Christ, the bishops have given up on some of the members?

Given the current apostolic visitation aimed at investigating the orthodoxy of women religious in the US, statements that the RC hierarchy has concern for women in general and poor women in particular seem particularly hollow.

The bottom line for the bishops is control and their own authority. They realize that if they lose this battle and women actually can exercise authority, they have lost the war.

so by continuing to vote (D), no matter what, while saying the catechism about the lesser of two evils, in x number of years the Democratic Party will change its behavior and unleash its inner Progressive?

those people have had 40 years in which ‘lesser evilism’ was the law of the land for the (D) captured Left, and they dragged the Party and the country further to the right than Nixon (EPA, clean water act) or Reagan (Convention against torture) would be comfortable with.

Thanks a lot Democrats!

and, pulling further back, it isn’t really the corrupt pols themselves that are the problem.

“by its fruits ye shall know it” as the old saying goes.

time to nurture a new tree.

and yes, RevDeb, by staying home at least one does no harm, by endorsing evil with ones vote, whether that evil is 9 feet tall and hairy or 6 feet 7 and creepily pale.

With 17+% of the country’s workforce unemployed and either un- or underinsured, not counting the other 30M or so uninsured, I don’t how much of a risk a single payer platform would be.

Citizen SouthernDragon:

Brother Dragonman, don’t waste yer valuable breath on Citizen sporkovat, when the shit hits the fan and they’re comin through the wire the motherfucker will be sittin’ in front of his TV with that mutant Ralph Nader and the other three members of his third party.

Which is why we do need to pass something this year as a beachhead. Historical note – when Social Security passed in the 1930′s most people didn’t live to be 65 to enjoy the benefits. That was a calculation on the sponsors’ part to ensure solvency while guaranteeing benefits to those needing it.

Well, that’s telling. “It’s da bishop!”

the devout have no time for the unbelievers, with all their disturbing notions of heliocentrism and evolution – waste not time better spent praying, for More and Better Democrats, amen!

Citizen gerryphilly:

Every word that comes outta yer mouth…lyin sack of pseudo-intellectual bullshit! Read my lips: no more bullshit!

Show me where I’ve said anybody had to vote Dem. Get out and support somebody else during the primary period. If you don’t win this time, do it again. Plus, there are usually a host of other things on the ballot that directly affect your community. You gonna ignore them? You don’t want to vote for Dems, fine. I’m no stranger to leaving some offices blank simply because I’m faced with the evil of 2 lessers. There are more options than just staying home.

Citizen sporkovat:

That must be the most intelligent thing you’ve said on this site…go take a pill, jump back in bed, putcher thumb in yer mouth and dream of bein’ breast-fed.

Dude’s pretty concrete with not a lot of imagination.

Yep. I was so disheartened by my guy losing the Virginia primary I almost wanted to stay home last week. Would’ve been the first time EVAH for me. I’ve voted in everything.

But in the end, I voted for the other stuff on the ballot. And wrote in “OldFatGuy” for governor. I don’t think I could ever stay home. Just wouldn’t “feel” right.

Besides, I was always told, if you don’t vote, you don’t have a right to bitch. And I do love to bitch about things!!! *g*

the high-level discourse you are famous for – but again, thanks for laying off the capslock key. somebody must have given you good counsel about that.

Citizen sporkovat:

sigh…you are indeed a waste of space.

That’s the way I see it. “You didn’t even bother to get off yer ass and vote? I don’t wanna hear it.”

Look – I want single-payer healthcare. And for the banks to be held accountable for screwing the people with unaffordable mortgages and usurous interest rate on credit cards. And for people to be free from the fear of homelessness if they lose a job. But we have to recognize that these things are intimately connected with the idea that people have intrinsic worth and that this worth and dignity is to be accorded to everybody whether we happen to like them or not or deem them worthy or not. If we do less we run the risk of mirroring the values we claim to despise in the Tea Partiers.

SD – it is true you do not seem to advocate voting (D), no matter what. for many here, that is a fair characterization, and for places like DailyKos, they are very orthodox on the topic.

but the church comparison has legs, unfortunately, because the resemblances are strong.

going to the polls would be a form of communion – but for those who are not of your church, they can look at voting differently.

for a citizen who is sincerely antiwar, there was no one on the ballot worthy of support, so choice is clear.

whatever your issue is, there is no reason to sell it short just to ritualistically kneel and take a wafer in the holy Voting Booth.

Is there any subject you couldn’t connect your anti-abortion shit to?

I hear Randall Terry callin’ ya.

Agreed. The only way to make change is to be involved. So we should try to get as much into this bill as we can but make sure it passes. Then put the heat on to get more next year.

Give. Me. A. Break.

Buh bye.

spork, it’s just not as easy as you describe. it’s quite a different story depending on where one lives. living in MA, i sometimes have the luxury of voting green, or independent (little “i,” not the party) especially for down ticket races. in other parts of the country that’s just not the story. why rail on people when you don’t know the choices they have faced or how they have wrestled with trying to do the right thing with the choices they have?

it’s really really aggravating, i don’t think you are persuading anyone, and i probably agree with most of what you say (i didn’t even vote for obama, dude!).

my 2 cents, do with it what you will.

So realize that the overwhelming majority of posters here find expressing prolife views leads to endless rancorous discussion without resolution.

If you like that sort of thing go for it by posting a diary. Other people that want to solve the great philosophical issues posed by women having control of their bodies will engage, nay they will flock to your diary. Those of us that just want fair access to basic reproductive health can avoid the distraction.

norske, if there is anyone who tempts me to start sounding like our friend spork, you do. you, like spork, don’t know the choices each of us has faced in the voting booth or how we have wrestled with trying to do the right thing with the choices we do have.

You don’t aree that people have intrinsic worth and dignity?

in the dismissals and inability to engage on substantive issues, the blunt unwillingness to examine the tenets of the Faith, many on the Left have much in common with those on the Right that they like to denigrate.

you can battle your catechism against theirs, as with the reproductive rights debate on this thread, but obviously engaging with a critique of your faith per se is too tough.

I do too. But basic reproductive health is more than abortion: it includes pre-natal care, pap tests and pelvic exams – screening for cancer and stds. Are you willing to lose these things just to ensure public funding for abortion? And I would point out that this thread started as lambasting the Democrats for taking public funding of abortion off the table to get the endorsement of the Catholic Bishops.

missed your tactful replies as I was posting #174.

indeed, the world is full of infinite nuance, and location and self-location is vital.

one way to see what I do is an attempt to pull the old Overton Window away from what many see as some kind of obligation by people of good conscience to always vote (D), or they are ‘wasting their vote.’

it is true my tone is not as soothing as could be, but we’re all grownups, and I try not to make fouls for which I should go to the penalty box. Hard but clean, as my old coach used to say.

Take it elsewhere.

You’d rather not have healthcare available for millions of Americans than compromise on publicly-funded abortion?

It was the bishops who made the ultimatum here: “we get our way on abortion, or we will oppose the whole package.” To get on your high horse and claim to be taking the broad view of things when the BISHOPS made abortion the deal breaker is laughable.

Understood. But given that the Democrats agreed my question remains – Are you now willing to forego any healthcare reform because of the lack of abortion funding?

Please take it somewhere else.

Your condescending tone is getting real, fucking old.

And this time I was nice.

endless rancourous discussion without resolution should go on its own thread. Start a diary for it.

Stop posting in this thread.

Citizen selise:

Sorry you feel that way but don’t dump on me if you can’t deal with your own contradictions…and as for not understandin’ the choices others have had to make in the voting booth…well, puhLEEZE that’s bullshit.

I’m sorry that I’m offending people but I am surprised that taxpayer financing for abortion could be a deal-breaker for healthcare. The procedure remains legal. Guaranteeing funding in this bill would not increase the number of abortion providers in rural areas, so access would still be a problem in many states because of state laws.

Ah the strawman argument.

Because the Stupak bill would not affect the already banned spending of taxpayer money on abortions. It would ban those insurance groups receiving any taxpayer money at all from even offering coverage to those not being subsidized.

Not a strawman – Does the Stupak amendment change the status quo? Does it reduce availability of services? Does it restrict anyone currently able to obtain an abortion through a currently existing healthplan from doing so in the future? I agree that someone moving from a private plan to a publicly-funded one would be disadvantaged, but since single-payer is not on the table the change in plan would require active choice on the part of the individual. I do see that circumstances could make a person consider this less than ideal situation.

I may not entirely agree with your sentiment, but your manner of expression is priceless.

Yes it changes the status quo. Yes it reduces the availability of services. Yes it restricts the ability to obtain an abortion through currently existing health plans going forward.

His amendment, Stupak noted, is in fact more restrictive than the language he had previously agreed to include in the bill. The pro-choice crowd, demanding the right to vote their consciences, Stupak said, overplayed their hand and look to be handing him a bigger victory. Stupak’s amendment is extremely restrictive — any individual or any business that gets any subsidy or tax credit — which will be most people in the country — will not be able to purchase a health care plan that covers abortion, even with their own money. They can, however, buy supplemental coverage from a separate plan. Stupak’s amendment would represent the most significant rollback of reproductive rights in decades.

Is it even Constitutional?

“It may not be. I don’t know,” Rep. Jan Schakowsky (D-Ill.) told HuffPost. “But we’re certainly not looking to resolve this in the courts.” They may not be, but someone, somewhere, might be.

via HuffPo

That helped a lot. Thank you!

25 years ago I was on the board of the local Planned Parenthood. I quit in frustration over being ignored in my contention the Right was organizing and Roe v. could be overturned and that we needed to be preparing for that battle. The other board members thought that was a ridiculous idea.

Non profits typically will set up two branches – a political branch and a tax exempt branch:

EG
Political (does lobbying, informs members on specific legislation, etc)
ACLU, NORML, Sierra Club

and
Tax exempt (501 c(3)) (Education, Advocacy. less than 5% political activity)
ACLU Foundation, NORML Foundation, Sierra Club Foundation.

I’m on the board of a moribund 501 (c) 3 organization that did cannabis relegalization advocacy work in Southern Indiana.

Churches are tax exempt under 501 (c) 3 and may not engage in campaign activity by law. In practice this law isn’t enforced against them.

Yeah, I’m sorry too, I’m in a foul mood and will leave after this post.

But you said:

but I am surprised that taxpayer financing for abortion could be a deal-breaker for healthcare.

I’m surprised you said that, given that it was the BISHOPS (of whom I suppose you support) that seemed to imply it was a dealbreaker. In other words, they were unwilling to support healthcare without the amendment. So it sounds to me like you’re surprised at your own side too.

Good day.

Add to that, I know a woman who lost a child during birth – it was alive, and died while she was in labor. That has to be the worst thing that can happen.

Too bad this troll has never actually learned anything about pregnancy, miscarriage, or the history of the church. The whole ‘life begins at conception’ bit is modern bad theology. Aquinas wasn’t that stupid.

And I say let them lose. That’s not the kind of church the world needs: authoritarian, male-oriented, cold-hearted, and cruel to those who most need help.

In practice this law isn’t enforced against them.

Thanks! Your explanation helped a lot. In light of your last point, Elliott’s question/assertion @ 3 makes a lot more sense.

I doubt anyone is still reading this now, but I wanted to make 2 points.

One, I am sick of the bashing of young women.

There is a sizable gender gap in abortion attitudes among the youngest generation of Americans. Women age 18-24 oppose further limits on abortion access by a wide margin (63%-34%). But young men are divided over the issue: 50% oppose more abortion restrictions, while 45% are in favor. In this regard, this youngest group of men stand apart not only from women within their cohort, but also from men age 25 and older. Aside from this gap between men and women under age 25, there are virtually no gender gaps in overall abortion attitudes among older cohorts.

Young women do understand. Every single abortion post blames young women for not understanding blah blah. Not true.

I also have never heard how an abortion ban would work. What if a woman said she was going to get an abortion anyway? How would that be stopped? Handcuff her to a hospital bed and force her legs open?

How about put her in prison, like they do in Mexico?

I wish every ‘pro-life’ person was forced to go on the record about that.

The Church needs to take care of its flock, not the population of the United Snakes. It’s almost like someone who knows nothing about war, or international relations, (Hilary Clinton comes to mind) being made Sec. of State, just to keep her out of the national scene. The Catholic Church never’s kept up with it’s own internal politics, and ethics. Its grasp of the abortion issue is one of the only issues left it can make a fuss about with Evangelicals, which they must fear. When JFK didn’t really give a shit about abortion, those Knights of Columbus started blowing the horn, and getting the church involved in national politics. Stupak’s add-on was like Congress voting again about burning the flag, or having in dog we trust on our coinage-useless; Rally’n the Amway moms with the Palin stickers on their Cadilac Esq’s. They’re keep’n the po people down.