Comments on: A Public Option Opt-In Is Not The Same As State-Based Public Plans http://fdlaction.firedoglake.com/2009/10/27/a-public-option-opt-in-is-not-the-same-as-state-based-public-plans/ Politics for liberal newsgeeks Sat, 18 Feb 2012 00:20:57 -0600 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.1.2 By: gamd521 http://fdlaction.firedoglake.com/2009/10/27/a-public-option-opt-in-is-not-the-same-as-state-based-public-plans/#comment-56361 gamd521 Tue, 27 Oct 2009 18:57:08 +0000 http://fdlaction.firedoglake.com/?p=3778#comment-56361 A bit off topic, but I just heard mention on MSNBC that the low life Lieberman will join the Republicans in a filibuster unless the PO is removed from the proposed merged Senate bill. This is not unexpected from this vile worm, but the minimum that we ought to demand is that he be recalled by the people of Connecticut forthwith. Ways to practically accomplish this should be started. In the meantime under no circumstances should this maggot be left in the Democratic Caucus and he should be stripped of any vestige of chairmanship or influence. Let this prick suffer the consequences. The Senate Democrats should not withdraw from considering a merged bill with a PO nor be frustrated in this effort by this miscreant sack of shit. If this son of a whore wants to filibuster then fine and let him be relegated to irrelvancy in any measure he proposes. Leave it to the people of Connecticut if they want this shill to be the pariah that represents their state. In addition the Senate should move ahead with rescinding the anti-trust provision given to insurers and then prosecute it fully so that they are driven out of markets and other comapnies can take their place. Further Medicare and all providers and insurers should be allowed to bargain down prices from drug companies. The long and short of it is that there is much that can be done in reprisal against this scum and nothing should be spared in doing so. A bit off topic, but I just heard mention on MSNBC that the low life Lieberman will join the Republicans in a filibuster unless the PO is removed from the proposed merged Senate bill.

This is not unexpected from this vile worm, but the minimum that we ought to demand is that he be recalled by the people of Connecticut forthwith. Ways to practically accomplish this should be started.

In the meantime under no circumstances should this maggot be left in the Democratic Caucus and he should be stripped of any vestige of chairmanship or influence. Let this prick suffer the consequences.

The Senate Democrats should not withdraw from considering a merged bill with a PO nor be frustrated in this effort by this miscreant sack of shit. If this son of a whore wants to filibuster then fine and let him be relegated to irrelvancy in any measure he proposes. Leave it to the people of Connecticut if they want this shill to be the pariah that represents their state.

In addition the Senate should move ahead with rescinding the anti-trust provision given to insurers and then prosecute it fully so that they are driven out of markets and other comapnies can take their place. Further Medicare and all providers and insurers should be allowed to bargain down prices from drug companies.

The long and short of it is that there is much that can be done in reprisal against this scum and nothing should be spared in doing so.

]]> By: NorskeFlamethrower http://fdlaction.firedoglake.com/2009/10/27/a-public-option-opt-in-is-not-the-same-as-state-based-public-plans/#comment-56345 NorskeFlamethrower Tue, 27 Oct 2009 17:49:48 +0000 http://fdlaction.firedoglake.com/?p=3778#comment-56345 Citizen OrganicGeorge: "Do you really think the opt-in or opt-out will survive the Senate-House conference?" Short answer: "NO" What we are lookin for here is how hard One Hung Harry Reid wants to make it on the progressives to get legislation that will create a program that will work. Right now our biggest hope is that Reid will hold on to his dream of re-election, the people of Nevada keep a firm hold of his genitals and the House of Representatives will pass the Medicare Plus package. As I have been sayin' for months now, the success or failure of this entire excercise is in the House of Representatives...if Pelosi wants a program that works she will step on Stenny Hoyer's cape and if she wants Rahm and the fascists to take back the House in 2010, she will let 'im run a weak bill into conference. Follow the baseline politics, who gains from a weak bill that won't make a difference in the economy or the budget within the first year? Answer: no one including the White House benefits from a clusterfuck of a bill like the Clintons tried to bring in 1993-94. Pelosi loses her speakership and the Democrats lose majorities in both houses, Harry loses his leadership, and Obama doesn't make it beyond 2012. The stars and the politics line up perfectly, but the only force that can make it happen is out here in the great mass of real folks Citizen OrganicGeorge:

“Do you really think the opt-in or opt-out will survive the Senate-House conference?”

Short answer: “NO”

What we are lookin for here is how hard One Hung Harry Reid wants to make it on the progressives to get legislation that will create a program that will work. Right now our biggest hope is that Reid will hold on to his dream of re-election, the people of Nevada keep a firm hold of his genitals and the House of Representatives will pass the Medicare Plus package.

As I have been sayin’ for months now, the success or failure of this entire excercise is in the House of Representatives…if Pelosi wants a program that works she will step on Stenny Hoyer’s cape and if she wants Rahm and the fascists to take back the House in 2010, she will let ‘im run a weak bill into conference.

Follow the baseline politics, who gains from a weak bill that won’t make a difference in the economy or the budget within the first year? Answer: no one including the White House benefits from a clusterfuck of a bill like the Clintons tried to bring in 1993-94. Pelosi loses her speakership and the Democrats lose majorities in both houses, Harry loses his leadership, and Obama doesn’t make it beyond 2012.

The stars and the politics line up perfectly, but the only force that can make it happen is out here in the great mass of real folks

]]> By: letsgetitdone http://fdlaction.firedoglake.com/2009/10/27/a-public-option-opt-in-is-not-the-same-as-state-based-public-plans/#comment-56343 letsgetitdone Tue, 27 Oct 2009 17:47:00 +0000 http://fdlaction.firedoglake.com/?p=3778#comment-56343 It is critical and thanks for discussing these critical distinctions. But please also don't narrow the frame to opt-out on the left wing. Yo see where we are we really keep asking the question of whether anything Reid is considering is worth progressive support. I still don't think it is and <a href="http://seminal.firedoglake.com/diary/11337/" rel="nofollow">make the case here</a>. It is critical and thanks for discussing these critical distinctions. But please also don’t narrow the frame to opt-out on the left wing. Yo see where we are we really keep asking the question of whether anything Reid is considering is worth progressive support. I still don’t think it is and make the case here.

]]> By: alank http://fdlaction.firedoglake.com/2009/10/27/a-public-option-opt-in-is-not-the-same-as-state-based-public-plans/#comment-56341 alank Tue, 27 Oct 2009 17:38:03 +0000 http://fdlaction.firedoglake.com/?p=3778#comment-56341 That sort of discourse is not allowed up front in first class. That sort of discourse is not allowed up front in first class.

]]> By: NYCartist http://fdlaction.firedoglake.com/2009/10/27/a-public-option-opt-in-is-not-the-same-as-state-based-public-plans/#comment-56337 NYCartist Tue, 27 Oct 2009 17:31:51 +0000 http://fdlaction.firedoglake.com/?p=3778#comment-56337 I'm not a cussin' woman, but agree with most of what you said. I shall keep saying the paraphrase of the former Vietnam vet peace activist, now a US Senator, and former candidate for President: who will be the last person to die before we have single payer - Medicare for All? I think Black Agenda Report has had Pres. Obama's "number" on health care all along: www.blackagendareport.com (Bruce A. Dixon and Glen Ford's blogs) I’m not a cussin’ woman, but agree with most of what you said. I shall keep saying the paraphrase of the former Vietnam vet peace activist, now a US Senator, and former candidate for President: who will be the last person to die before we have single payer – Medicare for All? I think Black Agenda Report has had Pres. Obama’s “number” on health care all along: http://www.blackagendareport.com (Bruce A. Dixon and Glen Ford’s blogs)

]]> By: alank http://fdlaction.firedoglake.com/2009/10/27/a-public-option-opt-in-is-not-the-same-as-state-based-public-plans/#comment-56336 alank Tue, 27 Oct 2009 17:30:22 +0000 http://fdlaction.firedoglake.com/?p=3778#comment-56336 Stop the opt, I want to get off! Stop the opt, I want to get off!

]]> By: NYCartist http://fdlaction.firedoglake.com/2009/10/27/a-public-option-opt-in-is-not-the-same-as-state-based-public-plans/#comment-56334 NYCartist Tue, 27 Oct 2009 17:29:15 +0000 http://fdlaction.firedoglake.com/?p=3778#comment-56334 Makes one wonder why pass a bill, when it gets changed so much. Makes one wonder why pass a bill, when it gets changed so much.

]]> By: oldtree http://fdlaction.firedoglake.com/2009/10/27/a-public-option-opt-in-is-not-the-same-as-state-based-public-plans/#comment-56332 oldtree Tue, 27 Oct 2009 17:20:44 +0000 http://fdlaction.firedoglake.com/?p=3778#comment-56332 I am really sorry to argue with you Jon, as you spend a huge amount of time on this work. But we are veering off the cliff of distraction with all the explanation for something that still has no framework. I can see that you are resigned to report that insurance is the thing. You always refer to health care with insurance, and the two are not equitable. There is no health care with insurance. There is however rationing of choice, rationing of providers, of provision, and of care. It is trash. It is unadulterated garbage dressed up like a dead pig waiting to become bacon. If this site is willing to continue to talk about insurance when we should be talking about Medicare health coverage for every god damn one of us, it furthers the distraction and disenfranchises millions of Americans by assumption. This would hardly be productive to the citizens of the country, and would benefit only insurance companies. It is a part of the corruption, and you continue to talk about it as though it will continue and we will have to just deal with it. You are wrong in this respect. I understand you are reporting what you consider fact, but you leave the human equation out of the issue completely. It is a deal with insurance. I want you to try to understand that you can not deal with insurance and health together. Insurance is to profit from others suffering, or lack thereof if it can be granted by law that the insurance company does not have to payout to the policy holder. It is a selective means for criminal behavior well documented in RICO statutes. They are exempt from such, because they have purchased their exemption from our house of lords and peons. To assume an unconstitutional provision that disenfranchises some while including others is going to stand even one court test is fundamentally disingenuous. The senate certainly knows this, and the joke is on us for getting our pants in a twist about our lordly gift from the swine that do naught but take rights away from the citizens of this country. They have offered up nothing in this bill. It doesn't cover everyone, and instead of it being a right, they have figured out how the lowliest of the low will pay for it with the money they would otherwise spend on food. Further, to assume that any kind of program will work when our government has promised numerous companies involved that their profit will not suffer, is bordering on the psychoactive. Pharma is happy, they get to charge us 8000% more for a pill than they do in Canada or Mexico. It's built in to the new law, isn't it? When will someone stand up and tell these publicly confirmed criminals that we do not accept their giveaways? Will we demand a free, single payer health care system as our fellows in some of the better third world nations get? Will we use our massive buying power to eliminate the cost overrides that cost Medicare alone, 60 to 80 billion a year? Will we cover everyone? Will we never again look at health care and see dollar signs? Reporting on an unacceptable boondoggle designed to placate idiots and reward campaign contributors needs to be shown for what it is. Will you please create a story about what this "potential, projected, possible, preliminary, plausible, primitive piece of crap doesn't do? Perhaps we should be looking at this from the bottom up instead of the top down. HR676 is the only option. As we see the country deteriorate around us, and employment drops again and again due to the collapse of the economy, the people will begin expressing their anger. There is only one way to save this nation from a violent confrontation as families being broken look to those that have caused it and find no reason to understand and cooperate. Please don't leave out all that this compromise denies the people of this country. I am really sorry to argue with you Jon, as you spend a huge amount of time on this work. But we are veering off the cliff of distraction with all the explanation for something that still has no framework. I can see that you are resigned to report that insurance is the thing. You always refer to health care with insurance, and the two are not equitable. There is no health care with insurance. There is however rationing of choice, rationing of providers, of provision, and of care. It is trash. It is unadulterated garbage dressed up like a dead pig waiting to become bacon.
If this site is willing to continue to talk about insurance when we should be talking about Medicare health coverage for every god damn one of us, it furthers the distraction and disenfranchises millions of Americans by assumption. This would hardly be productive to the citizens of the country, and would benefit only insurance companies. It is a part of the corruption, and you continue to talk about it as though it will continue and we will have to just deal with it. You are wrong in this respect. I understand you are reporting what you consider fact, but you leave the human equation out of the issue completely.
It is a deal with insurance. I want you to try to understand that you can not deal with insurance and health together. Insurance is to profit from others suffering, or lack thereof if it can be granted by law that the insurance company does not have to payout to the policy holder. It is a selective means for criminal behavior well documented in RICO statutes. They are exempt from such, because they have purchased their exemption from our house of lords and peons.
To assume an unconstitutional provision that disenfranchises some while including others is going to stand even one court test is fundamentally disingenuous. The senate certainly knows this, and the joke is on us for getting our pants in a twist about our lordly gift from the swine that do naught but take rights away from the citizens of this country. They have offered up nothing in this bill. It doesn’t cover everyone, and instead of it being a right, they have figured out how the lowliest of the low will pay for it with the money they would otherwise spend on food.
Further, to assume that any kind of program will work when our government has promised numerous companies involved that their profit will not suffer, is bordering on the psychoactive. Pharma is happy, they get to charge us 8000% more for a pill than they do in Canada or Mexico. It’s built in to the new law, isn’t it?

When will someone stand up and tell these publicly confirmed criminals that we do not accept their giveaways? Will we demand a free, single payer health care system as our fellows in some of the better third world nations get? Will we use our massive buying power to eliminate the cost overrides that cost Medicare alone, 60 to 80 billion a year? Will we cover everyone? Will we never again look at health care and see dollar signs?

Reporting on an unacceptable boondoggle designed to placate idiots and reward campaign contributors needs to be shown for what it is. Will you please create a story about what this “potential, projected, possible, preliminary, plausible, primitive piece of crap doesn’t do? Perhaps we should be looking at this from the bottom up instead of the top down.

HR676 is the only option. As we see the country deteriorate around us, and employment drops again and again due to the collapse of the economy, the people will begin expressing their anger. There is only one way to save this nation from a violent confrontation as families being broken look to those that have caused it and find no reason to understand and cooperate.

Please don’t leave out all that this compromise denies the people of this country.

]]> By: Jon Walker http://fdlaction.firedoglake.com/2009/10/27/a-public-option-opt-in-is-not-the-same-as-state-based-public-plans/#comment-56331 Jon Walker Tue, 27 Oct 2009 17:19:51 +0000 http://fdlaction.firedoglake.com/?p=3778#comment-56331 This is not a matter of opinion or support. I think an informed debate is critical. This is not a matter of opinion or support. I think an informed debate is critical.

]]> By: shootthatarrow http://fdlaction.firedoglake.com/2009/10/27/a-public-option-opt-in-is-not-the-same-as-state-based-public-plans/#comment-56329 shootthatarrow Tue, 27 Oct 2009 17:15:59 +0000 http://fdlaction.firedoglake.com/?p=3778#comment-56329 It made for some happy talk late PM news on Monday as various American news fountains did the framing that made Congress actually saying a PO was in there sound pretty darn good. Gosh darn Thank You Congress! This Opt-Out idea of course seems a pretty easy to do/take off ramp from sticking to a genuine Federal PO plan. Let the states play around with PO. Maybe let the for profits cobble state PO plans together so in essence the for profits get to game in theory any PO plan 50 ways across the United States in each state capitol. Nothing wrong with that idea right? Heck it is such a brilliant idea maybe do the same thing with Social Security and Medicare then too. What we saw yesterday was the abdication of responsible and firm Federal legislation to put in place a viable,national PO for American healthcare. This Opt Out idea is going to be totally gamed and played by the for profits to undermine the unity of a national single PO approach. Opt Out? Opt In? Opt Around? Opt Maybe/Maybe not? What we saw yesterday was the shank pushed in hard on a viable,national PO which is only way to give any PO the stature in funding and negotiation standing to take on the big five for profit health insurance houses. Could we please get past the party favors and see what took place Monday? It made for some happy talk late PM news on Monday as various American news fountains did the framing that made Congress actually saying a PO was in there sound pretty darn good.

Gosh darn Thank You Congress!

This Opt-Out idea of course seems a pretty easy to do/take off ramp from sticking to a genuine Federal PO plan. Let the states play around with PO. Maybe let the for profits cobble state PO plans together so in essence the for profits get to game in theory any PO plan 50 ways across the United States in each state capitol. Nothing wrong with that idea right?

Heck it is such a brilliant idea maybe do the same thing with Social Security and Medicare then too.

What we saw yesterday was the abdication of responsible and firm Federal legislation to put in place a viable,national PO for American healthcare.

This Opt Out idea is going to be totally gamed and played by the for profits to undermine the unity of a national single PO approach.

Opt Out? Opt In? Opt Around? Opt Maybe/Maybe not?

What we saw yesterday was the shank pushed in hard on a viable,national PO which is only way to give any PO the stature in funding and negotiation standing to take on the big five for profit health insurance houses.

Could we please get past the party favors and see what took place Monday?

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