From EPU_land:

Chuck Schumer must really think that his constituents are idiots.
From a press conference today in Rochester:

“I am pushing what’s called a level playing field public option, which means there will be competition,” he told WXXI. “If you like your insurance now, you keep it. But there will be an alternative if you don’t.”

Conflating opt-out for individuals with opt-out for states?
You might almost think that Schumer has something to hide.

Providing health care for the nation is a moral issue

If you truly believed that then you would not be supporting the Pyrrhic Option. Instead, you would be fighting for HR 676 / Medicare For All Americans.

So is there any calculation that the opt out issue is a feature, not a bug? That the Dems see political capital in the future if they put in place a public option and then can campaign that republican politicians in a state are “taking away” the option that people in other states have? Just a thought that occurs – since I tend to view whatever the Dems do in terms of what they think they can gain politically vs. what they think is good for the country.

…the Pyrrhic Option.

I like that.

However, since you imply that Jane is not fighting, I suspect that yours wan’t the wit which came up with it.

If the public option kicks in in ‘13, and states can reject it a year later, it may be more difficult to reject than simply having a GOP majority.

Do I have this right–that the law goes into effect in 2013?

While this compromise typically leaves the voter in the lurch, it will force State politicians to show their stripes and backbone. Opt-out at their political risk. Not much, but with Rahm Obama in charge of the gates and as good as the Senate can do(Damning by faint praise). As Jane says, …”no chicken counting going on here yet.”

Good on Reid to call out the WH—and who cares what that phony Snowe thinks anyway. We need the GOP like we need a case of raging herpes. Press on for what is right and you will be the better for it.

no chicken counting going on here yet

That’s what I’m talkin’ about!

I reserve the right to withhold my praise for Harry until I see the final form of a bill presented for the President’s signature. Based on his past performance, I don’t trust Harry to act in Americans’ best interests, and as Jane points out, there still is room for much mischief on Harry’s part.

I agree it would be much better to force states to accept the system for a couple of years by which point it would be impossible to remove anywhere but Oklahoma or Alabama, etc. But, even with a quick opt out states will find in time that they must opt in. That is exactly what happened in Canada — health care started in Saskatchewan and people elsewhere talked to relatives there and soon the whole country was demanding it.

*G*

What a couple of hard-asses–you and Hamsher.

It looks like States can opt out beginning in 2014. I think Reid mis-spoke in his presser. See reporting by AP, USA Today, and WSJ:
http://abcnews.go.com/Business/wireStory?id=8921389
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB125658273270408669.html?mod=WSJ_hpp_MIDDLENexttoWhatsNewsSecond
http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2009-10-26-Health-care_N.htm

It might surprise you that there are a number of hard asses here. I figure I’m in great company with Jim, Jane, selise, et al.

Let them opt out and many of those states will become Democratic faster than crap comes out of goose.

Jane, congrats on your leadership. I agree we must keep our eye on the details, but I think your worst case including states like CA, MN, CT, etc. is a little over the top.

Having lived in AL for a number of years, I think even those folks would raise a fuss if they saw a better deal being rejected by their politicos.

I am for this opt-out. It would be the death of the republican party. I don’t think that they are that stupid though, I can’t see them actually opting out, they would never be re-elected.

I would rather see this than triggers or co-ops. Can we now stop watering down the bill? Just let them opt-out, see how far that gets them.

Providing health care for the nation is a moral issue, it’s not about getting a “political win.”

Jane, it’s a moral issue for us, sure. But it’s silly to therefore expect our political representatives to put their politics aside. No, the point is to make the politics reflect our priorities.

From that perspective, the opt-out as described sounds pretty good to me. If republican majorities in the red states opt out, that leaves their voters at a disadvantage: employers will find neighboring states cheaper to do business in. Pretty quickly, so will medical practitioners and hospitals. I doubt if any state government would be stupid enough to opt out, actually. But if they do, look at it like a controlled study!

AND THE KILLIN’ GOEZ ON AND ON AND…

Citizen Hamsher and the Firepup Freedom Fighters:

Take a breath Sister Jane and give yourself a moment to absorb what you have been a part of accomplishing. First of all, now that there is a “public option” and no wiggle room for Democrats like Reid to escape the necessity of a strong and workable bill, Rahm and his function of keepin’ the corporate opposition and it’s money under control are passe. The work of phone bankin’ and grassroots organizin’ in Nevada on this was crucial in lockin’ Reid into a strong bill. Make no mistake about it, now that the papermache of triggers and coopts are written out or marginalized, the entire fight is now over the most cost effective and widest coverage and the strongest Medicare model. This means that good old grassroots politics and not the political economy of campaign contributions will rule the balance of the sausage makin’ process.

There is much work to do and there will be blood let before this is over but it’s all gunna be done in front of the cameras and the people…now political self-interest meets the wishes of the people who will vote and that’s called democracy!!

So take the time to feel good and don’t worry about what or who might be sneakin’ up on ya from the dark alleyways of corporate corruption…we’ve gotcher back Sister!

KEEP THE FAITH AND PASS THE AMMUNITION, THE FIGHT IS NOW IN OUR FRONT YARD!

Well, if you’re counting hard asses, include me in.

That is critical. It would be great if the exchanges and PO could be moved up a year or two. It would be much more difficult for states to opt out after a substantial period of having the option available–regardless of which party is in power in a particular state.

AZMatt@14: Let them opt out and many of those states will become Democratic faster than crap comes out of goose.

Got a bit o’ the poet in ya, eh?

oh – and I agree.

I like the idea of putting Republican legislators in the position of saying, “That cheaper, higher quality insurance brought to other states by the democrats, we’re not going to let you have that here in our state.”

Mayhaps it’s dawned on the Dems that corporate donors may fill their campaign coffers but it’s the person in the voting booth that has the real power. With the intertoobz able to debunk any bullshit ads in a flash corporate donors are left with a limp dick for their cash outlay.

eCAHN@19: Well, if you’re counting hard asses, include me in.

Come on now – curmudgeon or hard-ass – which is it? *g*

Citizen SouthernDragon:

Do I get a “hardass” shoulder patch too, Brother Dragonman?

I second citizen Norske, even though his nose hairs could support a ship’s (or longboat’s) anchor.

Yes, by all means, this is just a small victory–but it is a victory none the less.

The other thing is that the so-called public option in this bill will likely end up being the Schumer version, and he said today that it would have “the same rates” as private insurance.

BULLSHIT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

If it isn’t Medicare rates, it’s useless.

OT

Just got an email informing me that I could have lunch with Biden at the Harvard Club in NYC for a mere $1,000, or $4,800 if I want to attend the VIP reception.

I’d say they’re mutually reinforcing.

Friends, it’s not going to be CHEAPER if the corporatist wankers have their way.

Geez. I haven’t been asked to make such a hard choice since whenever.

I think JH right to game worst case scenarios on opt-out. CA, for instance: Except for a very few issues (maybe global warming is only one left), Arnold is very hard core reactionary when it comes to protecting business interests. I can see him finding some reason. He has been willing and able to run straight smack into wiser public judgment for the sake of his rich pals, and only public votes have stopped him from pushing CA even more towards reactionary regime. And all bets are off if a Republican wins gets in (except maybe for Campbell, who I think has no chance in GOP primary).

Anything wrong with pushing for popular state referenda on opt-out? That will reduce the number of opt-outs, I think. Seriously, that is only opt-out plan that is really OK with me.

Interesting that Schumer seems to be saying the public option would be for anyone who wanted it. That is not what I understand: public option is now planned only for people who cannot get private policies, with opt-out or not, right?

I don’t think anything can be called a strong or robust public option unless anyone who wants to go to public plan can go, any business offering insurance has to offer it with as a choice in benefit package, small businesses can offer it. Anything else results in iffy reform that may unravel, especially with weak and partial private regulatory reform, which I assume is a given at this point.

They’d let Biden in a Harvard Club?

You gotta ask that? *g* Got a design in mind as we speak.

I don’t think the ‘opt-out’ idea sends a positive message, but rather intimates a lack of confidence in the public option from the get-go. I live in Kansas, which we call ‘Sasnak’ because things get SOO backwards here sometimes. We just lost our very best governor, Kathleen Sebelius. I am certain Snake Eyes Sam (Brownback) will be our next governor, and I fear we will be returning to the Creationism crap, and with an opt-out public option, I can guarantee Snake Eyes Sam will pull the plug on any public option here. I don’t want him to have the chance to do that, so I ‘opt-out’ of the opt-out.

Everybody knows profits are more important that lives. /s

Why wouldn’t they let Biden into a Harvard Club? He wears french cuffs with fancy cufflinks. Not sure whether he wears tassled loafers, though.

We need to fight for the narrowest possible opt-out language. Probably the best is to require the legislature to pass a bill, subject to veto by the governor just like other bills. It should not be presumed, though, that every Republican-controlled body will choose the opt-out.

However:

And Reid has many procedural moves at his disposal to make the opt-out easy to accomplish, or even drag triggers back into the picture.

Sorry, I don’t understand how you can claim this. How could triggers be added back in, against the will of a majority of Democrats? Reid isn’t even sending any trigger option to the CBO to be scored. An amendment needs 51 votes.

The way to fight opt-out is to push Congress into having as many provisions as possible take effect in 2010. The public needs to see benefits, and soon. Remember that Medicaid was originally opt-out, and eventually all the states opted in.

Citizen SouthernDragon:

ROFLMAO!!! Send that sucker up the food chain to the FDL general staff…that’s a logo for Firepups for sure!!

Jane, I’m guessing one of the additional reasons behind the choice of an “opt out” public option, is the oh-so typical political wedge strategy.

I’m not saying that I approve of it, but one shouldn’t dismiss that politicos are all about their own egos and endless political warfare conducted via their legislation.

In this case, that additional wedge strategy is to force battleground states to choose doing an “opt out” at the behest of their Repug state governments, and in doing so, turning their populace against those very Repugs for leaving their citizens uncovered and sowing the seeds for state Democrats to gallup to the polls.

States like Alabama and Mississippi will “opt out” of course given the stranglehold that the Confederacy…ahmmm excuse me…the Ku Klux Klan…ahmmm excuse me…the Repugs have on these state governments.

The states where the Democrats think the “opt out” will eventually play to their benefit are places like Texas, Arkansas, Missouri, Indiana, the Dakotas, etc.

The Democrats and their political strategy advisors are betting that in these states, the battle over “opt out” (and therefore no health insurance for many) will cause the citizens to revolt and realize the Democrats are their only lifeline.

As I said at the beginning, I don’t approve of using peoples’ health and lives as a cynical bargaining chip for power, but I’m willing to bet our Democratic congresscritters are gaming their election chances this very moment.

We need to get the language framed properly. Opt-out means “let’s deny the people of our state a choice”. It means “let’s preserve the insurance company oligopoly”.

Thank you, Norske. But having been down the “good intentions” road many times before, you don’t ever let your guard down, nor do you call off the dogs until the ink is dry with the President’s signature.

This isn’t what we fought for. And while I’m willing to take a “wait and see” attitude for the time being and open up another front, I don’t imagine anything that will make Ben Nelson happy will make us happy.

Citizen JoeBuck:

Take a breath Brother Joe and understand that nobody gets re-elected with a weak bill with an easy opt-out. Of course the devil is in the details but now everyone has skin in the game to make this legislation work BEFORE November of 2010. The worry I have had all along is not with whether or not Obama supported a bill that would work, but whether or not some in the Democratic leadership would sabatoge the bill and then retire to corporate welfare…that doesn’t look like it’s gunna happen now.

Jane should really put an asterisk by CA, because the Governator, if he says “No”; wait he can’t anyway if this reform doesn’t kick in until 2013, it won’t matter we’ll have a Dem in office.

We worked on getting the PO in the Senate bill, now we need to work hard on eliminating the delay until 2013 start-up and THEN work on the various details that could screw it up.

As it is, its flawed reformed at best, but when you have lemons you make lemonade.

Californians; when the SB810 bill comes down again and Arnold threatens to veto it, FORCE him to sign it. Otherwise we wait for Brown or Newsom.

beware of the Lieberweasel.

I’ve looked for a larger version. No joy. If I can dig out the black and white original I got when on the river I’d scan it. None of my viewers will enlarge it satisfactorily.

let’s preserve the insurance company oligopoly mafia

Fixed it for you. An oligopoly becomes a mafia when the customer is vulnerable.

Here’s what you lifers need!

Kept in the Dark

from the Son Tay Raiders

Kept In The Dark Fed Only Horse Shit

*Squeezing my hard ass into a cheap seat*

Does this mean there are no triggers.. cutting off mid and upper income folks from purchasing P.O.?

Citizen Hamsher:

Don’t take yer eyes offa the prize but delegate some a the pressure and start lookin’ to refining and redirecting your forces for the next battle…there are certainly more fights to engage but now all the political decision-makers are on the same raft with their voters…seems that our job is to keep the bastards in this dingy with us.

Pressure on Reid from progressives when his poll numbers are flagging made him defy the White House.

This is the best news all day! I think that Jane’s view is spot on.

As for details, I’m more worried about what will be given up – i.e., taken out of other parts of the reform bill that deal with private insurance regulation – than with the presence of an opt-out for states in the Senate bill.

Won’t the House and Senate have to go through a reconcilation process after their respective bills pass? There will definitely be a stronger po in the House bill, so it’s a good thing to have a po in the Senate bill, even with the opt-out.

Pelosi has more than proven that she can stand up to the WH. Reid seems to have found some strength of his own. I think things are moving in the right direction.

We just have to keep working hard to make sure that they can’t ignore the voices of millions of Americans, Liberal, Progressive, Moderate, whatever, all who want a public health insurance option.

Add me as another hard ass. We want some reform ASAP as in now. No trigger.

OK, enough celebration and self-congratulations now let’s get back to that progressive imperative to scream and holler over SOMETHING!

Citizen Raven:

LOL! Ceasefire dammit…yer gunna give me a coronary!! How ’bout we put yours on the right shoulder and “the mouse that roared” on the left…does that meet protocol, Brother Freebird?

Can Do!

“Having a state opt-out that will make corporatist Democrats happy is quite likely not to be “available nationwide from day one,” and thus does not meet the the definition of a “robust public option” by anyone’s terms.”

Where is any evidence that it’s “quite likely,” or even likely at all? Virtually no office holder now in power will still be in that same position in 2014, the earliest I understand a state could opt out–one year AFTER implementation. There was no precedent for a state to opt-out of proposed federal largesse; there’s REALLY no precedent for taking an existing program and shutting it down.

This was a brilliant move by Democrats, to improve the version of public option and figure out a way to get it by the conservadems.

Maybe a good test would be if the reform looks as good as that in MA. Poll Krugman mentioned in column today says over 70% of public and docs want to keep reform there. There is too much corruption and timidity in US government for a real reform now, so main test for me is whether whatever happens now will ratchet US towards real reform later.

Will the current mess improve things enough for the public to press for real reform later? That is the question.

There is also this version.

I’m sure you can find plenty of screaming & hollering at the wingnut blogs, if you’re suffering from S&H withdrawal.

States that Opt Out will have lower housing values is the Meme we should push after all restaurant workers and slaughter house workers well I don’t want to buy food from states where sick workers don’t have healthcare.

Here’s some empirical data on what various states have done in implementing SCHIP and Medicaid — beyond a federal minimum, the level of coverage is left to the states, and the date clearly shows that Republica/conservative states are far more likely to leave people uncovered — and this is kids! — than liberal states.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/10/business/economy/10charts.html

I’ll stick around here, it won’t last.

Good suggestion. Stress the public health consequences. I’ve always been amazed that wingnuts don’t want illegal immigrants to get medical care. Do they really want people in this country who have contagious diseases, but who can’t get medical care? How blind is that?

Goddamn, Saxby and Broun will have a fit we aren’t first!

My understanding is that states have until 2014 to opt out of a program that will not even start until 2013, meaning they could reject it before the program starts.

The current governor of Tennessee is a Democrat, but he isn’t running for reelection.

In either case, Tennessee will opt out if an option to opt out makes it to the final bill.

Nice link for this post!

That’s exactly the point Rep. Clyburn made on the Ed Show tonight. He said it would be a great opportunity for the public to test governors in those states that are up for relection next year.

If the issue were equal opportunity rights for African Americans, Clyburn would not be making this argument.

They never worked fast food with all the workers sneezing and coughing during flu season. Given Newt and Rush’s obvious love for food you would think they would have some idea how their food is prepared.

I understand. It would be hard for you to get a rise out of the other commenters on the wingnut blogs.

Can I come back to the point I was trying to make @ 51? Assuming that the po with opt-out gets through the Senate, won’t a final bill still have to go through reconciliation with the House’s bill, which has a stronger po. In other words, isn’t it highly likely at this point that the final bill will have a po and that Pelosi will push to take out the opt-out if progressives help her by keeping the pressure on, i.e. by continuing to run ads, sending letters, making phone calls, and generally showing how many Americans very much want a strong po?

Me too! it ain’t over till it’s over, esp where shapeshifter Harry is concerned.

Better link?

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/10/business/economy/10charts.html

never fear, DiFi is here! (to jump on the bandwagon):

After appearing to waffle this summer in her support for President Obama’s plan for a wholesale overhaul of the health care system, Sen. Dianne Feinstein has come out swinging for a measure that will cut the insurance industry’s clout.

“Private, for-profit insurance companies have no moral compass,” California’s senior senator said in a lengthy statement Friday, in which she called not just for a government-run public option for health care, but also for repealing insurers’ decades-old antitrust exemption.

Feinstein said she’s convinced a national public option will offer Americans high-quality coverage at a lower price. “I am concerned that without a public option, (cutting health costs) will be difficult to accomplish,” she said.

hey, whatever gets the job done.

Family Value states protect the unborn…. until they are born.

You need to read the comments on the Athens paper.

Montana is not one of them. We passed a “Healthy Montana Kids” initiative and put 30,000 more kids on SCHIP. The state Republicans tried to reverse the will of the people in the state legislature but it didn’t work and they looked bad. A little trick to remember: I did my bit by making sure the women at Janet’s Hair and Nails were on board. They then talked to all their clients. Women made this happen. Take the fight to the beauty salons.

I wonder if we can get the FDA to list on food all the states and countries where the food comes from and if the workers have healthcare.
Blue State Farmers should love that they can charge higher prices for food.

Silly people fail to see the eleventy skillion level chess game Obama plays. Since all politics is local, the opt-out is simply an LBJ reversal. Red State leaders, confined to the old confederacy and starved for donations, will side with banksters and insurance scam artists to complete the economic devastation of Sisterf*ck Alabama (et al) by opting out. Even those bred in the shallowest of gene pools will begin to mumble, “hey, wait a minute…” and the south, the last bastion of republicans, shall be lost from them for a generation.

It’s all so clear.

Great idea now how do we get White Males on board?

I’m still more encouraged. We’ve got the public option going into the final bill. The attention should now be turned to the details and what forms they will take. On a personal note, I noticed that my state “New Jersey” wasn’t on any of those lists so, I’m thrilled!

I’m with Jane, as right as you are that she probably needs a break! Once you have the rats cornered, you can’t lift your shotgun…

Even those bred in the shallowest of gene pools will begin to mumble, “hey, wait a minute…”

Don’t hold your breath

Count me in the hard-ass group, too. I do not trust Reid any further than I could throw him!

As a red-stater who was recently diagnosed with heart disease I’m less than thrilled with the result. I most likely won’t even live to see this take effect if it isn’t until 2014, although I hear that some Dems are finally waking up to political reality and urging immediate benefits be added to the bills. Was it Politico (I know. . .) that had the column today about how the health insurance industry is ecstatic because they got EVERYTHING they wanted in this bill, with the exception of the weak-tea opt-out PO.

I can’t afford to pay the bills for my recent hospitalization after my “good” employee-provided insurance paid their share. I’m close to bankruptcy due to medical and dental care so I skip the follow-up tests, treatments, and surgery is completely off the table for me financially, though I need it to live.

Obama and the dems can crow all they want about this but it won’t do crap for me and lots and lots of other Americans who are going to be casualties of the corporations.

Limpy Limbaugh believes that food is prepared by brown people with funny accents.

Shanghaiing refers to the practice of conscripting men as sailors by coercive techniques such as trickery, intimidation, or violence.

Beauty salons! Brilliant!

I will say it again.

The best known opt out provision was slavery.

Do we want to repeat it?

Unless this bill is so bad or does not effect enough of the population that people will want out or not care enough either way to stop the GOP from Opting their states out.
Regardless I expect Fox News to start lying about this bill day one. That and Glen Beck will send fake immigrants on camera to try and get healthcare.

Twas the same, and both work just fine.

I was picturing an anvil with an ass painted on it. ;~)

Well, apparently only NY communters are sensitive to that. I choked on a sesame seed while on a commuter train. The woman in the seat in front of me turned around and glared at my coughing. I remained mute until she asked if I were ill, to which I responded: no, I was eating a sandwich and got a bit of food caught in my windpipe. Besides which, I had a whole pile of napkins, into which I was coughing.

I was polite because I understood her unspoken point: H1N1. I did observe others on the train coughing without covering their mouths.

Unfortunately, or the reverse, the food born outbreaks have not been bad enough yet to make people think seriously about public health. My hypothesis is that all serious public health medicine ended with innoculations, which make people feel invulnerable. I developed that hypothesis when I saw how bone-headed CDC was in response to the anthrax attacks after 9/11.

You think that will work?

As Ezra Klein says, this legislation is designed to achieve – to reform – as little as possible. Ezra also calls it a considerable compromise for liberals, it is, but thinks they should get credit for it. I think they should take names and kick “moderates’” asses, including those in the White House who strove for this end.

In the warped, Rovian minds of White House chiefs of staffs, if liberal Dems abandon this reform as an abortion, they can be blamed for it, not him. If they support it, Rahma can put Obahma under his Reform Accomplished sign, while assuring himself that he won’t lose a dime of mega-corp money. What he and Obama fail to appreciate is that mega-corp money will always prefer Goopers, not their faux version. Their support is nominal, at best, compared to the rate of return the mega-corps get from lobbyist-written “reforms”.

More importantly, this Democratic leadersheep is ignoring the crying needs of a hundred million Americans, while picking their pockets. It’s not what they were elected to do. They won’t stay in office long. And they’ll have killed a lot of people along the way, as well as gutted the cause of reform and government’s ability to achieve it.

And good luck running against a challenger who is promising to retain the public option. The I understand it, those states will have until 2014 to opt out. Whether this means sampling it for one year or declaring that you’re not going to adopt it by 2014 almost doesn’t matter. The point is that every election will be a referendum on the public option and that states desire to opt in. I think any state that says they won’t opt in is going to face serious challenges and the loss of businesses. They will likely find it cheaper to do business in states that offer some relief in terms of insurance for their employees. It’s a win win if it’s set up right.

Hell, it’s worth a try. We have a real tar on board who could handle the press gang. . . .Oh Dragon. . .

Unfortunately, or the reverse, the food born outbreaks have not been bad enough yet to make people think seriously about public health.

Given the low standards of Corporate food I’m thinking a bad food outbreak is only a matter of time.

some food growers got the message after the peanut scare. We have some farmers out here doing some kind of initiative for food safety because they don’t want to be lumped in with the bad apples. They think ensuring public health and safety is GOOD for business. what a concept.

yep. Great strategy. It basically says that you get to be a guinea pig in a political experiment. And for lots of you, the House odds are stacked against you.

Don’t count us out, we ain’t done yet.

never fear, DiFi is here! (to jump on the bandwagon).

hey, whatever gets the job done.

I have to admit that I’m disappointed by the lack of courage among certain Democrats in the Senate. Even Reid today looked more like someone who had come to accept that he couldn’t leave out a po than like someone who had worked hard and proudly achieved a great moral victory.

Bottom line, we the people have shown that we can get the job done!

Well Fox does get White Males on board by selling fear and they Immigrant, Dark People, Poor People are taking away whats theirs.
Maybe we sell states that Opt Out as taking away healthcare and forcing everyone to pay more money for healthcare so GOP politician’s insurance and drug company buddies can get rich.
We need Populism we need Class Warfare!
Forget Government as the Enemy we give them Corporations:)

I wish dems would get it through their thick heads that it is a political win to defy the corporations.

But they can’t see past their campaign donations spreadsheet.

They wouldn’t need corporate donors if they won the hearts of sooooo many voters.

This op-out idea is another BS,what about republican states?..with
republicans assholes governors!! now Reid is a heroe?, finally no good option
will pass,only any bill that will kick in 4 or 5 years and depending on
state goverments wishes and political gaining. Democrats deserve nothing
in 2010-2012,cowards!!!

My comment got eated. Did eye ewes a bad werd?

Let me trying asking my question asked @51 and 70 but never answered in another way:

Assuming that the Senate’s bill a po with an opt out passes in the Senate, will that be the bill that the President signs?

I don’t think so.

Won’t the Senate’s bill still have to be reconciled with the House’s bill, at which time the opt out bs can be taken out?

You rang? Had to clean the boxes and feed the tigers before they had me for dinner.

Press gangs? Football season. Bars. Anybody do fantasy football? Any golfers out there? Basketball? Anywhere guys hang is a good start.

yes

“Yes” to which question? Can’t be “yes” to both.

Here in Oklahoma, Rethuglicans throw rocks at Democrats.

No, the bill that comes out of the Senate is not the bill that will go to the WH. Only after the House and Senate bills are reconciled in conference will the resulting legislation go to the WH for signature.

Couple of ignorant drunk rednecks. They’ll be shootin’ their mouths off before long and will end up gettin’ busted. The stooopid, it burns.

“Yes” to which question? Can’t be “yes” to both.

yes, we have no bananas.

Why make health insurance simple, efficient, and accessible, when you can make the system complicated, inefficient, and impose barriers?

Reconciliation will have to take place prior to the Presidents signature. They kept telling us to settle down that they could fix everything in “conference” which is what they call it these days. Jane said, “here, have some more salt on your festering wounds,” and poured on the activism.
they call it salt, but it is really a salve.

Anybody know what happened to my disapeered comment? Did I get Modereated?

Mods?

Mod note: No, you were not moderated.

Yes, we have no bananas.

Hah! Roaring 20s! I read somewhere the Banksters were throwing a roaring 20s party somewhere. Talk about tone deaf and brain dead at the same time!

Everyone on the AR Blog is talking about how they are being hammered with robo calls.. from Joe the Plumber, Newt Gingrich and Asa Hutchinson… in addition to a constant barrage of anti healthcare TV ads.

The banksters at the ABA conference have been gettin’ an earful all weekend. I know they weren’t expecting that. Prolly upset their dinner. Good.

http://current.com/items/91286401_showdown-in-chicago-protesters-crash-bankers-convention-video-images.htm

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/10/25/bank-protests_n_333155.html

Although in a one sense the numbers given in the various opt-out scenarios given above are true, it is a different set of numbers that are relevant to the whether PO functions well or not. And it is the second smaller set of numbers that bear directly on the PO.

The people eligible to for the PO nationwide are those that currently have no insurance or are indivually insured. It is not clear whether in addition those that work for a firm of less than 50 will are also eligible. This total is somewhere around 50 million people nationwide.

It is the people in the several states from this total of 50 million that have a bearing on the workability of the PO. The total number of people in the states that may op-out from the PO are not relevant.

From the purely paractical standpoint, the reason that no state should opt out is that it reduces the benefits of scale of the pool of enrolles that would otherwise be available for the PO. The amaller the pool in which to spread risk the lesser the degree to which you can lower premiums.

They always seem to think it’s a better political “win” to throw a hippy under the bus or into the Cook County Jail. They’re still fighting like it’s 1968 and don’t want the starch in their collars to become wilted, so other things wilt instead.

from a TPM thread:

It’s a long time between now and the floor vote on cloture. The GOP and the lobbyists only need to get to one Senator.

I mean the vote is still going to be in late November, so there is a month of heavy lobbying and all they need to peel off is one.

“Sen. Lincoln, this is Sen. McConnell, if you vote against cloture we’ll not run a candidate against you in 2010. How about it?”

“Hey Joe, it’s John and Lindsay here, want to stick it to Obama for winning the election and preventing you from being Secretary of State? What better way than to vote against cloture on the Health Reform Bill?”

“Hey Sen. Bayh, this is Jeb Bush – what do you say about being my running mate in 2016? All you would need to do is vote against cloture…”

“Sen Nelson, this is the AHIP, here is oodles of money to vote with your constituents and thus against cloture”

The stooopid, it burns is prosecutable.

well – *that* was upliftingg.

I have, however, been wondering why no one has looked at bayh as a possible defector.

I think as many states will, after sufficient bluster and posturing, opt out as refused the stimulus money.

That’s right, zero.

Count me in the hard-ass group, too. I do not trust Reid any further than I could throw him!

Just to be clear, when I mentioned ‘hardass’ above, it wasn’t referring to whether one believed Reid or not. I don’t trust any of them. But you need to celebrate victories when they come. Even small ones. And this development today was a significant victory. imo, you need to enjoy these things when you can, and it doesn’t require that you let your guard down or anyother such thing.

Live ain’t worth living if you can’t celibrate its victories. And today was a victory.

Punaise, you’re trying to depress me, right?

Anyway, Leaders have a bit of pull, as well, if they choose to use it. Since Reid’s on the line here I tend to think he will use what power he has to hold the caucus together.

“Senator, you know we’ve been discussing committee chairmanships and always thought you’d fit well as chairman of the one to name post offices in Guam.”

Right.

And a significant victory at that. Remember like a few weeks ago the PO was “dead?”

And today was a victory.

Well, to the extent that Harry Reid almost appeared to have leadership capability today – yeah, that’s cause for a tiny celebration. (I would call it a big one, but one right move buried deeply in the CV of Reid doesn’t quite have me jumping out of my socks)

And as to what he said, I’ll be looking at it as a glimmer of hope that some shit down the road *might* actually happen correctly.

I sure as hell haven’t called my bookie yet, though. (If I did, I’m still betting the “under”)

sorry ’bout that!

digby:

I think Reid deserve some credit here…

…Having said that, it’s premature to get too excited. There are many shoals ahead. This is one possibility:

Reid’s apparent intent to move ahead with a public option, including an opt-out, has led some Senate aides to suggest Reid is readying a strategy in which he might lose the cloture vote but then quickly bring to the floor a bill with a compromise public option designed to attract more centrists. That approach would reduce the chance of attacks from liberals by proving that the votes are not there for a more robust public option, an aide to a centrist senator said.

That sounds suspiciously like a “centrist” Senator’s wet dream, but it could happen. Reid will find himself in a world of hurt if it does, but maybe he figures he can get reelected on the “I did the best I could” platform…

jayt, I’m of the opinion that Reid was feeling heat. So his leadership was induced, to some significant extent. And the heat was generated by the left. That is why this is a victory, if even a small one. The left made it happen. imo.

In looking at posssible opt-out states, which ones are most heavily influenced/dominated by insurance interests?

Rhode Island?

ok – go ahead and celebrate (I try to make it a point to never stand in the way of a good party) *g*

But let’s say that you’re right, to some extent (the heat was generated by the left.).

I think that to the extent Harry is feelingg heat, it comes as a result of looking at his re-election numbers in Nevada.

So, again looking on the bright side, maybe we’ll see “Good Harry” at least until November 2010?

Nevada numbers may have played a big part, agreed. And we had phone banking going in there over the last several days. Netroots had a piece of that. Maybe I’m being way too optimistic, but this battle feels much better to me than the past FISA defeat. One simply senses a bit more muscle on the left this time.

Anyway, time will tell.

We may get a bill bassed, but can we face ourselves in the mirror afterwards?

Yes, the devil is in the details. What counts is what comes out of the House/Senate Conference. Going in to conference with this will be better than going in with Snowe/Rahm’s trigger. This will strengthen the hand of House progressives. So I’m smiling but not celebrating.

Jane,

I think this is Federalism at its finest. In the first place, I doubt seriously that any state, except some of the Confederacy, will opt out. And even if they do, it should be their choice to do so.

There is no chance to get a nationwide public option without invoking the Nuclear Option. Now maybe it’s a good idea to do that, but it would certainly guarantee plenty of frothing about “the Constitution” for the next twelve months (I know, filibusters are not in the Constitution).

Besides in the final analysis, this is not only potentially a huge political win, it might wake up the progressives in the South and get them to move to more enlightened America where we need them.

Jane, you and the labor unions have SAVED the public option from the death knell the media, for months on end, has been insisting was inevitable. And, I dont know whats given you the fortitude, the resolve, the strength, to fight this battle; but, you are, the best!!!

You are my hero! I believed in Obama, but it was you, Jane, and labor, and progressives like Jay Rockefeller, who really helped keep the public option alive (I am still waiting for “Obama leadership”, which I fear is fast becoming an oxymoron like smart republican!)

I hope history records your incredible role in this …. we arent out of the woods yet … Im still concerned that what Harry is working on is a public option in name only (for Harry and the wobbly democrats, though, today’s development has been a positive step in the rite direction)

Thank you Jane for your tireless work; it really is appreciated!

Opt-out….yeah, sounds like the Dems are opting out alright…Would be nice to see some backbone from these people for a change.

Interesting comparison, given the data in the referenced NYT article (that blacks and minorities, say, in TX are the ones most likely uninsured).

But actually, a more relevent opt-out govt program is Medicare. How many states have opted out? Zero.

a different view…

i certainly agree that the devil is in the details. there may well be some details in the bill voted on by the senate that are unacceptable.

but it is not clear to me that the process that has evolved among the democrats is as random as we might think.

i have written a short piece at dKos that summarizes the essential point.

the essential point is that the Reid decision might well be consistent with and supports many progressive objectives. we won’t know until the details are known.

please do not post and say that i am some sort of obama fanatic. you do not know me and i am not.

While I don’t think you’re an ObamaBot, might I be permitted to reflect?

Harry Reid has in front of him what may be the first really tough race in his political career. So what does he do? He throws the entire onus for health care legislation back to Obama, where it belongs, and leaves Obama’s favorite pet Senator from Maine right where she needed to be – against health care reform.

Now the President owns the success or failure of health care legislation all by his lonesome, Snowe can say she tried like the devil to make it work, and Harry Reid can slip back to Nevada and beg for mercy from the Right, while deflecting charges of weakness from the Left.

Meanwhile, the President now must dole out the pork to ConservaDems by the truckload to get just half (or less) of what the bill needs to be, and he will get no cloture vote from a bunch of industry-owned assholes in his own damned party – you are familiar with the names.

I am failing to see the brilliance, but this: If it comes down to the House Democrats holding the line for Progressive tendencies in the bill, and if that is the measure of failure of the bill, then the President will wear that failure (right where it belongs), or be forced to do what he should have done in January – seriously kick ass on his party.

Dear Firedogs,

Upon reflection, everyone must agree its been a really good day. Of course it’s not over but a tipping point seems to have been reached and the energy now is mostly downhill. I am not inviting anyone to search for a way to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory but I am very pleased and proud and I am going to savor this for a little while. Thanks to everyone for all the fine effort and Hats Off to Jane.

Conrad C. Elledge

newtonusr, I don’t understand how you can be so pessimistic. With the public option in the bill, the Conservadems don’t have 60 votes to kick it out. With our ability to get them to back down, the Conservadems have shown that they have to do what they are told instead of dictating. We at least will have a basic public option, a real public option now. Now we can only push for more, like 90% medical loss ratios and caps on market share for private health insurers and no more antitrust protection and caps on individual expenditure of funds for health costs to 5% of income not 8 or 10. We can keep pushing and make this the most liberal and best bill it could ever be.

Dear Jane,

Short break in the savoring to imagine that the opt out is deft strategy. Does several things: allows cloture votes because it escapes the “government takeover” line of attack by showing respect for state rights and a path to freedom for the truly committed. Now we’ll see who they are and if they don’t step up to demand opt out well then they are going to have trouble denying allegations of windbag, opportunist, corporate shill, etc. Good luck in 2010 kids cause Harry and Barry just put you in a double-bind.

On a completely separate note can any reasonable person honestly believe that a man of Christy’s considerable stature would have to offer financial incentives for the attentions of the filthy little tramp. Simply baseless attacks there.

Thank you for all your great work Jane,
Conrad C. Elledge

Looking back, I think Obama played this about as well as he could. It is not his job to own hcr, the project management is the role of congress. He publically stated his preference for the po, many times, and I think the the whole Snowe issue is overblown. He did want Reid to be careful. He did not kick anyone to the curb, r or d, although he had every right to. He got to this point, from one hell of a summer, owing very little to anyone for their vote. He did not panic, but persevered by letting public opinion, drowned out by the baggers in august but clearly heard now, dictate the terms of the debate.

Kudos to Jane, and dont forget Grayson.

Yes, because now that we have achieved ‘victory,’ the HC interests who pump hundreds of millions of PR dollars into fighting any meaningful reform, and directly fund Republicans AND Democrats to that end, will sit down and shut up.
And since meaningful reform is inevitable, Republicans will flock to support it.
And Rahm Emanuel will surely loosen the reins he has on House members who he has worked very hard to peel off (h/t Hugh).
Cloture. Cloture.

Not to give these people credit for being incapable of being this cynical, but I think you are overlooking the fact that should they vote against cloture they will lose to a Democratic primary challender who will have the decisive backing of a determined outraged public. And they should be made to know this.

We have to some extent just seen how this collective action by the public has achieved the inclusion of the PO in the bill that stands to be considered in the Senate.Fortunately nobody gets a free ride as long as people make their wishes count.

7000 people will die before Christmas in the Insurance Corporations’ War on Americans.

And we offer some lilylivered *opt-out* gutless public option?

I give fig one about governors’ races. How about those dead people and their ruined families? Spine-up for a proper public option that all could choose and that begins in a year.

7000 dead by Christmas.

In direct relation to the “opt-out,” and dividing our nation’s states through another sellout: http://seaclearly.wordpress.com/2009/10/26/re-health-care-bill-may-cut-employer-mandate

“Won’t that be wonderful for people who are at the mercy of Governors like Rick Perry, who serve their corporate masters’ vulturous ideology?”