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	<title>Comments on: Will Reid Submit To The Tyranny Of The Five?</title>
	<atom:link href="http://fdlaction.firedoglake.com/2009/10/16/will-reid-submit-to-the-tyranny-of-the-five/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://fdlaction.firedoglake.com/2009/10/16/will-reid-submit-to-the-tyranny-of-the-five/</link>
	<description>Politics for liberal newsgeeks</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Fri, 17 Feb 2012 20:44:48 -0600</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: iceman15</title>
		<link>http://fdlaction.firedoglake.com/2009/10/16/will-reid-submit-to-the-tyranny-of-the-five/#comment-54855</link>
		<dc:creator>iceman15</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 17 Oct 2009 00:01:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fdlaction.firedoglake.com/?p=3469#comment-54855</guid>
		<description>Thank you for your detailed accounting of such arcane Senate procedures. I agree that the &quot;dignity&quot; of the senate might be called into question by such action. However, given the likely consequences of failure - political annihilation in 2010 after building up expectations as much as Obama has done - don&#039;t you think that a combination of progressives on this core policy - like Sanders, Wyden &amp; Rockerfeller - and more restrained supporters such as Dodd &amp; Harkin himself - might be emboldened to take on the obstructionist minority within the party? If so, perhaps you might want to consider forwarding your idea to Bernie or someone like David Waldman?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank you for your detailed accounting of such arcane Senate procedures. I agree that the &#8220;dignity&#8221; of the senate might be called into question by such action. However, given the likely consequences of failure &#8211; political annihilation in 2010 after building up expectations as much as Obama has done &#8211; don&#8217;t you think that a combination of progressives on this core policy &#8211; like Sanders, Wyden &amp; Rockerfeller &#8211; and more restrained supporters such as Dodd &amp; Harkin himself &#8211; might be emboldened to take on the obstructionist minority within the party? If so, perhaps you might want to consider forwarding your idea to Bernie or someone like David Waldman?</p>
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		<title>By: letsgetitdone</title>
		<link>http://fdlaction.firedoglake.com/2009/10/16/will-reid-submit-to-the-tyranny-of-the-five/#comment-54853</link>
		<dc:creator>letsgetitdone</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 Oct 2009 23:15:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fdlaction.firedoglake.com/?p=3469#comment-54853</guid>
		<description>Jon, 

Harry can decide whether the PO will be in the bill or not. But if it&#039;s not then Schumer, Rockefeller, or any other individual Democrat can do the following:

1) Object to the proposed UC agreement that Amendments to the bill would require 60 votes to pass

2) When the bill moves to the floor without such an agreement an Amendment putting in a PO will be filibustered, but, also, one of the Senators supporting it can make a point of order calling for a vote on the amendment being considered by the Senate.

3) The presiding officer of the Senate, most often the Vice President of the United States, can then make a parliamentary ruling upholding the point of order and citing the Constitution of the United States rather than previous Senate rules (which uphold the right of unlimited debate) as the precedent supporting the ruling.

4) A supporter of the filibuster can then “appeal from the chair” by asking whether the Chair’s decision will stand as the judgment of the Senate.

5) If one of them does, then an opponent of the filibuster can move to table the appeal. 

6) Since motions to table are not debatable, the Senate immediately votes on the tabling and decides by simple majority vote.

7) If a majority decides to table the ruling of the Chair, that the filibuster is unconstitutional, and that a majority vote is enough to bring a bill to vote and to pass it, then the point of order, along with majority rule, is upheld.

8) By its action in upholding the Chair, the Senate will have established a new precedent, namely that filibusters are unconstitutional, and that all legislation thenceforth may be passed by majority vote, following a point of order calling for a vote.

None of this requires Harry Reid&#039;s cooperation or is up to him. The 52 supporters of the PO in the Senate would get a vote allowing them to overcome the filibuster and pass the PO amendment attaching it to his bill. It does, however, require the cooperation of Joe Biden who would be the presiding officer and therefore probably the President as well.

I understand that the Democrats are not likely to pursue this scenario if Harry doesn&#039;t put the PO in his bill. However, if they fail to do something like this then they will bear the responsibility, along with Harry, for the failure to pass a PO in the Senate. In other words, it is they and not just Harry, who would be submitting to the tyranny of the five.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jon, </p>
<p>Harry can decide whether the PO will be in the bill or not. But if it&#8217;s not then Schumer, Rockefeller, or any other individual Democrat can do the following:</p>
<p>1) Object to the proposed UC agreement that Amendments to the bill would require 60 votes to pass</p>
<p>2) When the bill moves to the floor without such an agreement an Amendment putting in a PO will be filibustered, but, also, one of the Senators supporting it can make a point of order calling for a vote on the amendment being considered by the Senate.</p>
<p>3) The presiding officer of the Senate, most often the Vice President of the United States, can then make a parliamentary ruling upholding the point of order and citing the Constitution of the United States rather than previous Senate rules (which uphold the right of unlimited debate) as the precedent supporting the ruling.</p>
<p>4) A supporter of the filibuster can then “appeal from the chair” by asking whether the Chair’s decision will stand as the judgment of the Senate.</p>
<p>5) If one of them does, then an opponent of the filibuster can move to table the appeal. </p>
<p>6) Since motions to table are not debatable, the Senate immediately votes on the tabling and decides by simple majority vote.</p>
<p>7) If a majority decides to table the ruling of the Chair, that the filibuster is unconstitutional, and that a majority vote is enough to bring a bill to vote and to pass it, then the point of order, along with majority rule, is upheld.</p>
<p>8) By its action in upholding the Chair, the Senate will have established a new precedent, namely that filibusters are unconstitutional, and that all legislation thenceforth may be passed by majority vote, following a point of order calling for a vote.</p>
<p>None of this requires Harry Reid&#8217;s cooperation or is up to him. The 52 supporters of the PO in the Senate would get a vote allowing them to overcome the filibuster and pass the PO amendment attaching it to his bill. It does, however, require the cooperation of Joe Biden who would be the presiding officer and therefore probably the President as well.</p>
<p>I understand that the Democrats are not likely to pursue this scenario if Harry doesn&#8217;t put the PO in his bill. However, if they fail to do something like this then they will bear the responsibility, along with Harry, for the failure to pass a PO in the Senate. In other words, it is they and not just Harry, who would be submitting to the tyranny of the five.</p>
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		<title>By: Leen</title>
		<link>http://fdlaction.firedoglake.com/2009/10/16/will-reid-submit-to-the-tyranny-of-the-five/#comment-54822</link>
		<dc:creator>Leen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 Oct 2009 19:50:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://fdlaction.firedoglake.com/?p=3469#comment-54822</guid>
		<description>52 Dems, and 62% of the American people behind them.  Pull the trigger NOW</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>52 Dems, and 62% of the American people behind them.  Pull the trigger NOW</p>
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