So, Jane, you really think that Joe Lieberman,
in an act of exquisitely conflicted and pained conscience,
wouldn’t sign on to a filibuster?

Lieberman has already made it pretty clear he will vote with the Right on HCR. I used to support Harry Reid when others were bashing him but over the last yr Harry has proved me wrong too many times to continue to back him. The lack of consequences when people like Joe go rogue has made it way too easy for the Blue Dogs to thumb their noses at the will of the majority and the leadership in both Houses of Congress. One firm act by Harry to put some fear in these Deep Pocket lovers could go a long way in changing their behavior.

Amen.

Classy headline.

Of course joe LIEberman will help the filibuster. Others will operate in a closed room as well: bayh certainly leaps to mind. I think that obama, rahm, and their close advisors have outsmarted themselves. I have the sneaking suspicion that no matter how much money they have in 2010 and 2012, the workers and voters won’t be there. We probably won’t go the other way but will sit out the elections. obama rode in on good feelings and a huge majority in elected officials and high regard by the population. rahm through all of that money and supporting DINOs and couldn’t make a dent in the repug situation; he did, however, get a book written by a friend that gave rahm credit for Dean’s 50 state strategy.

Thanks Jane!
I admire you for your tireless pursuit of the public option
Soldier on Jane !

Please see my diary “Tell Senator Reid to Lead. THE TIME IS NOW!”, and write to Sen Reid that it is not Sen Schumer’s responsibility to show that there are 60 senators who will not join Republicans in a filibuster. It’s entirely Reid’s responsibility to reveal which of the 60 senators who caucus with the Democrats will be mocking his Senate leadership by going against him on a procedural vote in order to block a bill from coming to the floor for an up-or-down vote.

The time to start shouting like we’re at a town hall meeting in August 2009 is now!

If the Democrats can’t find unity for an issue as important to the American people as the public option , I fear we will lose our majorities in both houses , and Obama’s agenda will never be realized .

I have no idea why Politico is letting people throw these kinds of jabs behind the cloak of anonymity, because there’s no good reason for it.

ROFLMAO – You have no idea why Politico… Politico… Come on. It allows them to write a story without having to factcheck it or even have a source. Creating conflict, real or imaginary, creates “compelling” narratives. It allows them to repackage a publicly known story about Reid’s response to Schumer, write a fictional dialog, and pass it off as “inside knowledge”.

Now if you are talking about some other news outlet, there might be other reasons like access. But Politico…

If Reid can’t get the 60 senators who caucus with the Democrats to side with him on a procedural vote, then he should lose in 2010 and the Democrats don’t deserve their majorities.

I’m waiting for a progressive takeover in 2010. *snort*

Your point about the math is valid on its own without having to cite Politico.

If there are not 60 votes, Harry, name the names of those in the Democratic caucus who would procedurally kill a bill that a majority of Senators support. Who exactly is it that the public has to convince?

Well let’s hope Keith Olbermann’s effort to spotlight these rump senators will hava an effect.

OT – Did anyone see Dylan Ratigan’s roasting of an insurance co. lobbyist this AM? (15th) Man, it was BRUTAL! I actually started to feel a little sorry for the lobbyist scum. Ratigan just would’nt let him weasel. Incredible what is going on right now.

I think of the institution of slavery! C-span will be doing a story on the Pennsylvania abolitionist charged with “treason” under the fugitive slave law”

This abolitionist was found guilty of aiding slaves in their quest for freedom. For this he was tried and convicted. His conviction was the death of slavery?

So who will be the first American to have his liberty taken away for his failure to comply with unjust and unconstitutional law, under the color of law forcing individuals to enter involuntarily, into contract with health insurance corporations?

So the theory of “legitimate government interests” now trumps constitutional law?

Involuntary Servitude is now aided by mandated health care law under fear of tax penalty as Americans aiding in the liberty of other “individuals” from forced coerced servitude with no protection of law , i.e. Dred Scott, where considered criminals

Jefferson is correct. The corporate aristocrats have gamed the system. They have usurped and continue in attempts to usurp law in the lust for profit. Wall street has eviscerated America in the lust for profit and health care is the next mechanism, as energy and home mortgages where the last. The continued Rape of America by Corporate Aristocrats unable to control their passions for power and profit have decimated the republic and its governed! THIS IS NOT GOOD GOVERNMENT / THIS IS CORPORATE PROTECTIONISM AT THE EXPENSE OF AMERICA!

If the Dems can’t get their shit together, plan on Repukes having a majority in 2010

I was just now interrupted from reading this post by a fund-raising phone call from the DSCC, which I had the honor and pleasure of hanging up on.

I live in a state that has mandated coverage , failure to get coverage will result in a penalty of $1800 assessed on your state taxes.
Residents of this state could get hit twice for failure to comply once from the feds and once from the state.

Beat me to it, you did. LOL

politico = republic rag sheet

Listen, you just can’t assume Lieberman will do it and say “that’s that.”

He has to say so publicly. He won’t for a reason. Reid needs to force him to do so.

No, not “of course Lieberman will help with the filibuster.” You can’t just “assume” that and let him off the hook like that.

He won’t say so.

Make. Him. Say. It.

The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants. It is its natural manure.” — Thomas Jefferson

I swear to god I’m one piece of legislation away from joining the Green Party. If the dems seriously dont pass a public option I’m not sure if there is any reason for me to continue supporting them.

Good for You!!!

Silent Killers.

Lieberman is an arrogant prick.
To think he was nearly VP sends chills down my spine.

…a favorite slogan of gun-toting teabaggers.

A strong third party may be just what this country needs. When you can’t tell the Democrats from the Republicans it’s time to make some major changes.

Some of these so called centrists have forgotten that they represent the people , and are beholden only to the special interests that fund their political campaigns.

TAXACHUSETTS? Yes Sal D. and Robert T. took nice campaign contributions and where influenced by the very tax exempt health insurers like BCBS, who now get the premiums, mandated by law under fear of tax penalty! Meanwhile Sal D is fighting a 17 count bribery indictment? This reeks like decomposing organic matter! Legitimate government interest my ass! INVOLUNTARY SERVITUDE TO GOVERNMENT OR CORPORATION IS UNCONSTITUTIONAL!

Jane/All just spent a week in D.C. Event at Hudson Institute with the warmongers Doug Feith, David and Liv Wurmser, lobbying in Voinovich’s, Congressman Wilson (the district I am in in Ohio) Senator Brown on the Israeli Palestinian issue, Green fest, Solar decathalon on the mall (Jane if you have not gone down these 20 solar houses built by 20 different college teams is worth the visit, there until this next weekend) and then went to the Senate Finance hearing on Health Care on Tuesday. Wow was it great to watch the pack of Republicans faces when Senator Snowe presented her spiel on “decades of inaction”. I really do not think the Rethugs knew for sure exactly how she was going to vote. I thought I saw smoke coming out of Senator Pat (protector of the false pre war intelligence) Roberts ears. When Snowe presented her statements I thought he was going to have a stroke. Then when she voted “aye” he was visibly pissed. A minute or so he got up and left the room for a few minutes.

Anyway Jane I spent a solid hour with one of Senator Voinovich’s aides. It became clear as it has when I have talked with a few other of Voinovich’s aides that he has not made a solid decision about the “public option”. That his “deep concerns” are going to be able to be influenced, only by the Insurance Industry but by Ohio voters and other American citizens.

His aide said “he has not said he would vote against the “public option” Now this same aide mentioned 8 times during that hour that Senator Voinovich supports “capitalism” (not sure what that has to do with health care) but whe kept mentioning it. I reminded her that his job was not support or protect “capitalism” but to honor the constitution and protect our nation from enemies from within and outside of our country.

I am hoping folks will contact Senator Voinovich and apply pressure. I do not think he is a closed door. This is his last year in office he is out the door next year. Let’s apply lots of pressure on him to honor his conscience do the right thing for the American people and support a public option.

Call or write Senator Voinovich’s office. Let’s flip Voinovich

Contact Form for Voinovich… please ask for a reply
http://voinovich.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?FuseAction=Contact.ContactForm

What’s so funny is that you have two masterful political liars, Obama and Lieberman who have “helped” each other in the past, sort of, when HoJo was not stabbing him in the back on behalf of his BFF McCain.

It’s well known that Obama’s 2006 endorsement was important. But it’s not widely understood just how urgently the Lieberman people begged for Obama’s help at a critical moment in Lieberman’s career — and in that light, just how much of a back-stabbing Lieberman’s attacks on Obama now represent.

…

“I am absolutely certain Connecticut is going to have the good sense to send Joe Lieberman back to the U.S. Senate so he can continue to serve on our behalf,” Obama said at the time.

…

“It was a favor as huge as we could have gotten — it was like a drowning man getting thrown a life preserver,” the Lieberman official continued. “Just when Ned was trying to establish himself as a credible alternative on the war, Barack Obama came in and said, `Hey, I disagree with him on the war, but you should send him back to the Senate.’”

So BHO does a huge favor for HoJo (as we all remember) and now HoJo thumbs his nose literally and figuratively at the President. It’s no real loss to the Dem Caucus if they lose Lieberman after this fight, he’s 51% in the bag for the republicans anyhow between his two man-crushes Graham of the Closet and McCain.

Here’s to hoping that Reid can find the spine to get the Caucus together and withstand any more stupidity…and he can read the electoral winds in Nevada so he just might. Otherwise he’ll find himself working for a living… and after all the years in the Senate a day job might just prove too much for him.

And of course rendered completely absurd by their total silence during Bush/Cheney’s subversions of the Constitition.

Taxachusetts aka The Socialist Republic of Massachusetts aka the Nanny State

When you live in a progressive state like Massachusetts you have to take the bad with the good

That senior democrat who says Schumer “damn well knows” there is no “groundswell” for the public option — that’s Leahy — he totally talks like that.

What is good about having tax law compel people to hand “liberty” over to tax exempt corporations which:

1) Exercise discrimination, under the color of law?

2) Are considered Public Charities, while people die?

3) Bankrupt people and take “their” property, while people die?

4) Bankrupt America while paying no Taxes. like the rest of us as we die!

Give me liberty or if not I will fight and die for it!
Corporate Servitude is not an fucking option……………

Good Morning Jane and Firedogs -

Public Service Announcement:

trouble getting in to the site today. no biggie but I recommend y’all click on and select a RSS Feed (down there, on the bottom of the page)I’m using Yahoo’s which allows me in to comment, some of them are just ‘readers’ that only allow you to read posts.

and now back to our regularly scheduled program :D

Even making him say it isn’t enough. I want to see him do it.

Make him get up there and read the telephone book along with the rest of the Republicans. The longer these jackasses talk, the more opportunities there are for them to make fools of themselves.

Make Joe and the Rs do it.

When I used to get these I took the time to explain why I won’t give a penny to them until they 1) Stay out of primary races where they have no business, 2) Start denying support to incumbants who do not support the main lines of the democratic party.

Well, at least I eventually stopped getting calls…

America is being raped by corporations who buy law! For those who fail to see it or acknowledge this reality, your rights and life will be eviscerated, just like a slave, if they have not been already?

AND THE KILLIN’ GOEZ ON AND ON AND…

Citizen Jane Hamsher and the Firepup Freedom Fighters:

Thanks for the work and the information, I am gettin’ the distinct impression that the administration is keepin’ the pressure on everyone out here in the progressive swamp and on all the players on the hill to stay in formation and fight the leadership and the corporate mercenaries in the Senate at every step of the process. It appears that the White House (Obama) is soft and will take any avenue available to ‘im to bail out on a “public option”…at least that’s how it appears to us out here. However, maybe this strategy is really the only one he’s got. Maybe, in fact, the only thing he’s got is the massive support from the people and if there is a crack anywhere, then the fascist fellow travelers in the Democratioc Party will seize the opportunity. I think we will see better about this when One Hung Harry brings the merged bill to the Senate floor. I believe that ObamaRahma owns Harry Reid and Pelosi and the Blue Dogs in both houses and as long as there is overwhelmin’ support for the public option, he can get the bill to a vote on the Senate floor and will be able to get a strong, reconciled bill outta conference. If there is any softening of support, actual or perceived, then Obama AND the people suffer. And, no I don’t know what plan “B” is.

As an aside, I’m gettin’ a bit nervous about the game of “footsie” that is playin out right now between “progressives” and Ron Paul. The Potemkin Village that is the Republican Party IS Ron Paul and make no mistake about it, his is the purist form of fascism and you don’t make deals with either the devil or a fascist. Look back on 1932-33 Germany and see what happened when the wealthy families thought they could control the lunatic paperhanger…the rest as they say is history.

KEEP THE FAITH AND PASS THE AMMUNITION, THE BATTLE IS JOINED AND THERE’S NO PLACE TO HIDE!!

The Massachusetts model is a good example of a bad system.
There is no public option , the state does offer subsidies but these are only available to low income people.
As a self employed person my income is a tad too high to qualify for a subsidy .
And so what if I get a subsidy ? My household budget is already stretched. I’m supposed to come up with $600 or $700 a month for some crappy plan that doesn’t cover shit.

http://www.ama-assn.org/ama1/pub/upload/mm/368/compstudy_52006.pdf

Once you see the lack of competition in Massachusetts and other s The are 603 for profit insurance companies licensed to sell health insurance in the state of Massachusetts, but yet tax exempt insurance corporations dominate the market share. Look at the stats in the AMA report in each state in the Union. You get a clearer picture of how the corporations have taken a page out of the “slave owners/segregationist handbook!”

Everytime you get a call from the DNC, tell them that you won’t be donating another penney until the bill is passed with a strong public option. WE’RE NOT GIVING MONEY AND WE’RE NOT VOTING FOR ANYONE WHO VOTES AGAINST THE PUBLIC OPTION! I’d also tell them not to call me again until the bill is passed! THE DNC can kiss my ass!

Absolutely correct, the model is crap! Now think Sal D. and Robert T. in drafting this legislation, worked the very tax exempt corporations now benefiting from the law. Mandated Involuntary Servitude to corporation is not an option. Neither was servitude to a corrupt King and his cohorts in colonial crime!!!

“America is being raped by corporations who buy law,” using the money they siphon out of the pockets of customers, i.e. the American people, to diminish regulations so they can abuse their customers even more and buy even more law to diminish regulation until they nearly collapse our entire economic system and have to have the American people bail them out…

Oh wait, is this going to be cyclical until they really do cause a major financial collapse?

Even if they don’t, they’re causing a whole lot of suffering in the process.

What I don’t get is how anyone would even listen to Snowe when her state is being sued by the insurance industry because they want to raise premiums by 18.5%? I hope the Progressive Caucus tells her that they are not voting for anything but a strong public option with no triggers and that if she’s not going to vote for it, she can get the fuck out now! I’d like to see her shown the door no later than Monday morning!

Citizen James Joyce:

Yessiree…the fascists did the same thing to the coops that came outta the ’30’s…used ‘em to solidify markets and protect profits.

Will the Democrats be too chickenshit to kick Leiberman out of their caucus when he fucks them (again)?

Are you aware of any studies done on the Massachusetts plan?
I’ve only been able to find links to news reports but no independent evaluations

If the Dems can’t get their shit together, plan on Repukes having a majority in 2010.

And that would make things different from what they are right now…. how again?

What I also can’t understand is how the Dems think that we are just going to take their weak ass attempts to water down this bill and not seek revenge? I hope they understand that their inaction will have grave consequences. We will work to kick evey one of their weak asses out of office, starting with Harry Reid!

The US has been run into the ground militarily, economically and politically by rapacious corporations for the past 30 years who would turn the US into a feudal garrison state before moving onto greener fields.

Where have you all been?

Oh, yeah, voting for New Democrats, like Bill “NAFTA, DOMA, DADT” Clinton, that’s where.

…and then wrench the Homeland Security gavel from his clenched fist.

she aint seein the door anytime soon. she is there strictly to provide cover for Rahm’s precious triggers period

I sincerely hope the mulititudes of blogging progressives (not you rox)who have been sniping at and second guessing Jane are starting to get a clue about just how right on her strategy of working in the House was all along.

now stfu and pedal !

Make. Him. Say. It.

Yes!!

And not only that.

MAKE. THEM. FILIBUSTER!

OldFatGuy:

“And that would make things different from what they are right now…how again?”

Instead of impeachment without conviction we would have a nullification of the ‘08 election…don’t give me the Nader “there’s not one dime’s difference” argument (sorry about the reference to the “N” word).

If you all like what you’re seeing now, just wait until the Citizens United case is decided by the Roberts court, which will probably solidify the notion that corporations are persons, and that persons have unlimited rights to free speech, including in campaigns where their contributions cannot be limited.

Will the Democrats have the cojones to reconfigure incorporation law to recast corporations as entities explicitly not entitled to personhood?

For some pols the D is exchangeable with the R
there is no difference

All this talk of JoeLie reminds me of the brilliance of the Kiss Float. *sigh* He’s with us on everything but the war…

Arlen Specter being but one example.

The difference is that under the D’s we get to talk about healthcare reform instead of war. I’d rather talk about healthcare reform…even if the dumbasses in our government can’t get anything substantive passed.

Exactly. And the first target should be Harry. Based on what he does a good portion of my political donation budget may end up with his opponent and I have never supported a rethug before. But I’d rather be sold out by an enemy than someone purporting to be a friend.

We tried to build the Green Party over the previous 10 years, but once Gore folded and gave the White House to Bush, the Democrat screaming banshee machine went after the Green Party and successfully framed us out of relevance.

My read is that the Democrat strategic leadership, if you can call it that, viewed losing the White House as worth it if they could knock off a nascent competitor which would provide a modicum of pressure to keep them honest.

So weakened, the Greens became a magnet for every washed out sectarian leftist group, that in a move straight out of COINTELPRO, began to instigate infighting which further drove people away.

Actually, a feudal garrison state would be a whole lot easier to fight.

The past 30 years, eh?

The current problems only had their seeds planted 30 years ago. Probably no point in get into a debate with you on class warfare, but this problem began at least 400 years ago. Not the point. The problem is that beginning about 5 years ago and getting worse as I write this comment, the sleaziest members of our society who have the vast majority of the wealth at their disposal are perfecting their methods, are increasing their power, and are increasingly abusing it.

If the voters elect majority R’s, then that IS a nullification of the 08 election, isn’t it?

And I’m sorry, but I’m not towing this party line or “lesser of two evils” thing any longer.

The Democrats own the House. They OWN the Senate. And they OWN the White House.

And yet torture continues (AFAICT); rendition continues; indefinite detention continues; warrentless wiretapping continues; a stimulus passed loaded with tax cuts instead of actual, you know, stimulus; health care reform is held hostage by Republicans or Democrats acting like Republicans; the “return to the rule of law” still looks to me as though this President is protecting the lawlessness of the last one instead of holding him accountable; etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc.

I’m sorry man, I’m just not seeing all this change I voted for last November. I’m seeing a Democratic party that is largely beholden to the same corporations that has owned the Republican Party for forever.

And I voted for Nader in 2000, and would do so again today knowing everything I know from then. Nader didn’t cost Gore the election. The same old lack of any set of balls by the Democratic Party allowed the Republicans to steal that election.

YMMV of course.

Involuntary servitude
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Involuntary servitude is a United States legal and constitutional term for a person laboring against that person’s will to benefit another, under some form of coercion. While laboring to benefit another occurs in the condition of slavery, involuntary servitude does not necessarily connote the complete lack of freedom experienced in chattel slavery; involuntary servitude may also refer to other forms of unfree labor. Involuntary servitude is not dependent upon compensation or its amount.

The Thirteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution makes involuntary servitude illegal under any U.S. jurisdiction whether at the hands of the U.S. government or in the private sphere, except as punishment for a crime: “Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.”

The Libertarian Party of the United States and other libertarians consider military conscription to be involuntary servitude in the sense of the Thirteenth Amendment. Some libertarians consider compulsory schooling and income taxation forms of involuntary servitude. John Taylor Gatto, a retired schoolteacher and libertarian activist critical of compulsory schooling writes of what he terms “The Cult Of Forced Schooling”.[1] Republican Congressman Ron Paul has described income tax as, “a form of involuntary servitude[2], and has written, “… things like Selective Service and the income tax make me wonder how serious we really are in defending just basic freedoms[3].

Some have also argued that, should Roe v. Wade 410 U.S. 113 (1973) be overturned by the United States Supreme Court, a constitutional right to abortion could still be sustained on the basis that denying it would subject women to involuntary servitude contrary to the Thirteenth Amendment.[4] However, no U.S. court has yet accepted such an argument.[5] Differing views have been expressed as to whether the argument is so unpersuasive as to be “frivolous”.[6] One major difficulty with the argument relates to the claim that pregnancy and child-bearing are within the scope of the term “servitude”.[7]

Reagan instigated the rolling back of the New Deal, which had foundered on its own already, and Clinton did his best to carry on the Reagan revolution. So relative to the past century, the past 30 years have been decisive in setting the stage for a massive transfer of wealth and political power. It was the Clinton DLC Democrats who gave us Alito, who were unable to play for keeps like the GOP does.

Bush would not have been able to goose the markets with low interest rates per Greenspan unless Clinton had set up the neoliberal economic basis to enable that. And it was the Democrats who signed onto transferring $2,000,000,000,000 from taxpayers to rapacious financial corporations which had already succeeded at attracting capital away from productive economic pursuits with their 30% ROI.

Forced coercion is handing “liberty” over to health insurance corporations under fear of tax penalty, against one’s will………

Health care reform is about protecting lives. not greedy grubbing self serving lying corporate aristocrats. Now a Life Tax! Fuck you Max Baucus!

It might be possible that if the Democrats go for an individual mandate with no public option that there might be some common ground found with the white ringers against government coercion which might possibly be able to break down the animus which has been so carefully stoked.

People, after all, are only people.

Yeah, that loss was good for the country./s The last 8 years really improved the condition of the US of A. Go Dem strategists!

That loss sure did a lot to keep the pressure off of the Democrats, as they seem poised to stick a needle into your bank account and perform a transfusion into the coffers of the health insurers.

Do you think that Harry Reid, Joe Leiberman or Dianne Feinstein give a flying fuck about you?

And that loss also bulked up big business on steroids, big business which contributes lavishly to the Democrat coffers because they know on which side their bread is buttered.

She’s finally looking like what she is: take off the makeup and the wig and it’s a Chicago ward boss staring back at you, asking for a bribe. The only thing missing is the big cigar.

–Jello Biafra

Who’s Afraid of the Big Bad Filibuster?

It wasn’t a “loss”. Al Gore “won”. The Democrats just proved once again they don’t have the balls to fight for what’s right when the chips are down.

You wanna do a fun “what if?” Close your eyes and pretend Al Gore had been “named” the winner, with Arkansas being the state in question, and Bill Clinton the Governor.

And everything unfolded EXACTLY as it did, all the way through the SCOTUS ending the recounts and stating Gore the winner.

Do you really, truly, honestly believe the Republicans would’ve reacted the same way the Democrats did??? Because I don’t for one second. They would’ve had their gun toting, sign carrying, rabid base in the streets 10 minutes after the SCOTUS ruling.

I don’t know how all of that would’ve ended up, but I do know how it ended up in this case when the Democrats once again showed their true colors revealing not even a stolen Presidential election is worth actually fighting for.

Clinton’s policies did more to help create wealth and ensure that it was more evenly distributed than anything else. Those are good things. On the other hand, Clinton didn’t tell sleazy people to abuse the system. The sleazy assholes decided to do that all by themselves.

And the Democrats who signed onto transferring $2,000,000,000,000 from taxpayers to rapacious financial corporations did so because the Bush administration created yet another doomsday scenario, the truth of which did not and could not have become apparent until later.

Look, buddy, I’ve learned how to rebut nonsense like your spouting by arguing with Republicans and other right-wing crazies for about 2 decades now.

You’re not saying anything that those lunatics and sleazy assholes haven’t already said.

“Tax exempt status of corporations in health care! “Anti trust exemptions.” “Mechanisms to control the behavior of corporations!” Not to much talk about these issues however……..

Lets tax the people who can’t afford overpriced health insurance. Lets blame people who cannot afford $630.00 a month for health individual insurance? Kids in college, home heating oil @ 3.25 a gallon, gas @3.55 a gallon, milk…. We need “healthcare,” not rip off insurers, driving costs higher for profits, blaming the already ripped off for the problem!!

Slaves needed protection of law denied because they where considered, inferior, according to asshole “Taney!” Americans need the same type of protection of law denied slaves…. from corporations, but we cannot buy the law! We do not have the doe, ray me! As Jefferson warned!

Clinton’s policies did more to create wealth and ensure that it was more evenly distributed than anything else.

Knoxville, what part of dot.com bubble did you miss?

What part of Clinton’s policies, especially the passage of Graham/Leach/Bliley which repealed Glass/Steagal did you miss?

You can’t just look at 1993-2001 to see Clinton’s legacy, what came afterward is as important.

Clinton and the DLC played the “if you can’t beat ‘em, join ‘em” game, not only with economic, but with social issues.

What part of triangulation by that sleazebag Dick Morris did you miss?

Pound for pound, policy for policy, Bill Clinton was the most homophobic president in my lifetime.

And then the Democrats just fold tent in 2000, spending more resources dissing the Green Party than they did in trying to capture a contest that they’d fucking won.

Boo fucking hoo, the Democrats were steamrolled by the fear of George W. Bush after he was a lame duck? Spare me.

If the Democrats are not going to fight for themselves, if they’re going to fight for my opponents, then how can they expect me to fight for them?

If you are going to be such a party man that you cannot honestly assess the errors made by the Democrats, while heaping all responsibility for everything bad onto the Republicans, just as Democrats are going down like $3 whores for their insurance pimps, then you’ve really got nothing substantive to contribute to moving the country past this simulacra of politics.

We have to stop this pendulum from swinging back and forth, changing polarities every now and again without changing any substance.

Citizen OldFat Guy:

It’s obvious you voted for Nader…but if the fascists win in 2010 that is decidedly NOT a nullification of the 2012 election it’s an abdication by ObamaRahma…since you made one big mistake in 2000 doesn’t mean you hafta be tied to it for ever. Tell me again about Nader’s dedication to minority rights, equal protection, “rule of law” and democracy…and while you’re at it let me know about his takin’ money from Rove and the corporatists in BOTH 2000 and 2004. Nader is a Stalinist pure and simple…look for ‘im to run with Ron Paul next time.

any comment of forced coercion… using a tax penalty to coerce individuals into a contract, associations with entities they want to have no associations with!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Involuntary_servitude

Involuntary servitude is a United States legal and constitutional term for a person laboring against that person’s will to benefit another, under some form of coercion. While laboring to benefit another occurs in the condition of slavery, involuntary servitude does not necessarily connote the complete lack of freedom experienced in chattel slavery; involuntary servitude may also refer to other forms of unfree labor. Involuntary servitude is not dependent upon compensation or its amount.

The Thirteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution makes involuntary servitude illegal under any U.S. jurisdiction whether at the hands of the U.S. government or in the private sphere, except as punishment for a crime: “Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.”

Jane

Honestly, we know this. You know this. Everyone we care about knows this.

But everyone else doesn’t.

This needs to start being talked about, really talked about on the MSM. The pressure really needs to be ramped up to MAKE them actually Filibuster.

We’ve had the threat for YEARS, and I’m tired of the bullshit. this needs to be the only Progressive talking point on the MSM. Jane I hope you agree and are actively trying to make it so.

When the Democrats are too chickenshit to even consider making those who threaten a filibuster get up on the podium and start reading the phone book, you know the game is rigged.

They would extend Senatorial courtesy to the traitors within their own party by allowing them to indicate their intention to filibuster without calling the question on them.

You do realize that the dot.com bubble wasn’t and the NASDAQ isn’t the totality of the U.S. financial markets, not to mention the totality of the U.S. economy, right?

Besides, investors created the dot.com bubble, not Clinton.

As for your other points, you need to check up on which logical fallacy you’re committing when you reverse the whole cause-effect thing.

I can’t really speak about DADT per se. When it comes to pro-choice matters, I try to limit myself to my opposing to a bad use of government power (forcing one opinion about life on all women by means of state coercion is obviously wrong).

On gay rights, all I can say is that Clinton’s DADT is not nearly as bad as the way equal rights for gay couples to marry has been used by the right to get out their voters in state after state for the last decade, by means of advancing ballot initiatives. Before I could even vote for Harold Ford, Jr. for US Senator from TN in 2006 or vote for anything else that year, I had first to vote on some stupid “protection of marriage” thing. Who put that on the ballot and why. do you think?

Clinton tried to find a way to advance gay rights and failed.

The Republicans, especially Rove, use issues of gay rights to trick homophobes into voting for them and their candidates.

You claim that Clinton was responsible for the economy under Clinton, except for the part about irrational exuberance?

You claim that Clinton was responsible for the economy under Clinton, except for the part about offshoring middle class jobs?

You claim that Clinton was responsible for the economy under Clinton, except for the part about using H1-B visas to drive down domestic tech wages.

You claim that Clinton was responsible for the economy under Clinton, except for the part about repealing Glass Steagal?

You claim that Clinton was responsible for the economy under Clinton, except for the part about plummeting real wages, rising insurance and housing costs.

Clinton, a het male, glibly promised to end prohibitions on gays in the military during the 1992 campaign. LGBT did not ask for that, one questioner on MTV did. The public has supported workplace and housing protections at levels higher than gays in the military and marriage in the early 1990s, yet patronizing hets and conservatives had set our agenda, an agenda which has run into the ground federally, most markedly under Clinton’s regime.

Obama is now promising to keep his promises, and I for one, am not holding my breath!

Please, get real, Knoxville, if you’re going to go defending DLC economic policies, then you associate economically with the GOP. The last thing this world needs is another true believer party man.

The Thirteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution makes involuntary servitude illegal under any U.S. jurisdiction whether at the hands of the U.S. government or in the private sphere, except as punishment for a crime: “Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.”

So the “crime” would be failure to enter into a coerced involuntary association servitude, contract, under fear of tax penalty and give up your constitutional rights to government and corporations, in return for life extension services, a monopoly on life, with no effective cost control mechanism, to control health care cost in place! This is dumb. This is not health care reform. This is protection of health insurance corporations as Taney protected the institution of slavery!

What a deal for America!!!!!!!!!!

The trolls must be gettin’ paid by the word.

who is the troll??????

Marcos, while I don’t agree with every detail; I do see a valid overall point.

Let’s face it; the Dems suffer from a fear of confrontation.

Why? Because there’s a multi-way reluctance between left-leaders, left-anemic-media and left-citizens to stand together. Leaders can’t lead in a vacumn.

After the 70’s, afluent folks on the left largely ignored left media and let it die, while the right heavily financed right media. Where are the Murdochs and Rev Moons of the left?

The blind spot for the left is; it’s a contentious world, and it’s just not always nice out there.

I guess it is considered trolling around these parts to hold Clinton to the same level of personal responsibility that he held poor people to when he ended welfare as we knew it and replaced it with a generous package of corporate welfare and conservative social policy.

There is no left in the US.

The Democrats serve as a cap to keep progressive and liberal policies from threatening corporate imperative.

The reason why there are no Murdochs of the left is that there is no percentage in not guaranteeing greater and greater corporate dominance.

Attention. Attention. Attention.

Someone who spent ten years trying to build the Green Party is insisting that I get real for defending what was good about the Clinton years.

That’s rich.

Sorry about the way things turned out after the 2000 election for the Green Party.

But don’t tell me that we have to blame Clinton’s efforts in the 1990s, including advancing education tax credits for young people and for adults who return to school for higher education, sh*t, the list would just go on and on, for what happened after the 1990s. In other words, don’t tell me that Clinton’s 1990s policies are responsible for, say, what Chuck Grassley did for the financial services industry with his 2005 bankruptcy “reforms.”

It’s called teleological thinking, which works great in religion but is a fallacy in logical thinking

Dude, you probably could keep this antagonistic bs up and argue with me all day, but I’m sure you have much more important things to do in order to rebuild the Green Party or start a revolution or whatever.

May I suggest you stop harrassing me and others, who are trying to move things in the right direction, start doing something more productive?

Yes the “Asselephant!” The silent “hybrid party” working behind the scenes beholding to corporate monies which enable them and pay them to craft law for thier benefit! The corporate aristocrats who can control his passion and protect others rights and law is a minority today…

How does one get a law, “equation,” passed that does not take into account “energy costs” when determining inflation?

We’ve been spending the past ten years fighting Willie Brown (the guy who helped Schwarzenegger beat Angelides) and Gavin Newsom and their DLC project to rid San Francisco of progressives so that an example of grassroots, citizen democracy might be snuffed out before it set an example for the rest of the nation.

The Green Party did not jump, it was pushed by Democrats, the same ones that you’re Lewinskying right now, so that the DLC could rule unperturbed.

Do you like the way that wealth accumulated at one end of the spectrum during the Clinton years? Does it fuck your world to know that Clinton did as much to screw average Americans as Bush II did, with the assistance of Democrats in the Senate?

There is nothing teleological about holding Clinton accountable for the damage he did.

If I recall, the Democrats in the Senate stood by silently when the bankruptcy laws were reconfigured to screw debtors and benefit creditors. They could have threatened a filibuster, but they folded like chairs, went down like the $3 Lewinskies they are.

As James Joyce mentioned, Clinton reconfigured the means for reporting inflation so that the parts of the economy which were inflating were excised from the formula because his economic policies were no different in effect on average folks than Reagan, Bush I, Bush II and now Obama.

And how can we forget the Clinton Effect, where the wake of bubba’s “progressive governance,” formerly all Democrat run levels of government turn all Republican?

When will the Democrats learn that they will lose elections when they fuck over their base, and when will Democrat Partisans stop defending them when they pull that crap? Do you all like losing, do you enjoy getting dildoed?

I’m with you. The 2000 election was stolen and the D’s were pathetic in their response. My comment responded to the idea that the D strategists wanted to splinter the D party by encouraging the defection of some to vote Green.

Ok,

whatever man. Usually I look forward to all of your posts, but you’ve lost me here. I suppose it must be me, but putting Nader in the same boat with Ron Paul is well….. interesting to say the least. Paul is a Libertarian. Period. Which is another way of saying Fascist really. Get the government out of the way so the corps can run everything.

Nader on board with that????

Sorry man, I’m not buying, and I’m not apologizing for voting for him in 2000 either. Like I said, I’d do it again today, even knowing what I know now. We had 8 years of the most corrupt, fascist, authoritarianistic government because Al Gore and the Democrats were scared to act like Democrats, not because Ralph Nader gather a couple of million votes. If Gore had run a campaign the way he’s been conducting himself SINCE the 2000 campaign, I would’ve eagerly anticipated voting for him much like I eagerly anticipated voting for Obama last November. But he was timid, afraid of being “liberal” and then didn’t have the cajones to fight for the Presidency which was rightfully his.

None of that is Nader’s, or my, fault.

Have a great day Norske.

Nader in 1996 and 2000 is not the same Nader as in 2004 or 2008.

Ron Paul and his libertarian freak show can be allies against wars of choice, and we should not fear working with them on that.

And as a Green anarchist, there is something attractive about getting putting the burden on corporations to keep the world safe for capitalism, as in the petroleum supply routes would be disrupted immediately under libertarian rule, kneecapping their project almost instantly and breaking our petroleum addiction at the same time.

-marc

You’re just repeating the same sh*t you said above, as if redundancy will help you win a debate.

And you’re bring up irrelevancies with the “giving a Lewinsky,” as if red herrings will help you win a debate.

And you’re throwing out the f-bombs, as if raising the decibel level will help you win a debate.

Let’s not forget the other day when you let slip the exression “Democrat Party.”

Whatever your true purpose for being here, it definitely is not to achieve anything constructive for the people of the United States.

But please do keep on trolling here. I for one will just thank you for cranking up the hits on the FDL site meter.

heard Nader speak this past weekend at the Green Fest at the convention center in D.C. He was pushing his new book and packed a large auditorium.
Nader….American people “expectations so low we enslave ourselves”

So you’re a Green anarchist using one of the most advanced technologies of civilization, which is available to any moron among us with a library card, effectively (as in, all you’re accomplishing) to undermine progressive and liberal efforts, as well as to indirectly hand Republicans power.

So much for principles… or intelligence.

Have you thought about starting a Green anarchist blog so you can bring like-minded people together? Obviously not.

A better idea than trying to undermine our efforts to organize, why don’t you troll around right wing blogs and try to undermine their efforts?

Let’s not forget the other day when you let slip the exression “Democrat Party.”

Any party that wins a presidential election and then does not fight to secure that victory has foregone being labeled as “democratic.”

Any party that wins both elective branches of government with a mandate to reform health care and has to fight in order to deliver on its promises, and just might not, has foregone the adjective “Democratic.”

There are reasons why more Americans are ditching the duopoly, both Democrat and Republican, and going independent.

One of those reasons are that they’ve quit believing the shit spewed by party hacks who appear to actually believe their own crap, which is the first step to political oblivion.

I own my political record. You are running away from the Democrat’s political record faster than Obama is from his electoral coalition towards a corporate governing coalition. If you want to refer to that crap as Democratic, then you’re part of a dwindling crowd of true believers.

Nader is toast, a has been, a spent force. His ideas are right on, but he is incapable of leading an electoral coalition because his ego has grown to large and his is not up for what it takes to make a difference electorally.

Did I say that I was a Luddite? And if I were a Luddite, note that they opposed and destroyed OPPRESSIVE technology. The internet is environmentally disgusting but it is useful technology. Chomsky is an anarchist and uses technology for chrissake.

Unlike you, I’ve worked with a broad coalition of folks from all walks of life on more than a handful of political campaigns which have won elective office, on more than a handful of ballot measures which have shifted resources from the corporate column into the column of average San Franciscans and have worked with our elected and City officials to enact more progressive policies, you’ve got no place making any comments about what it takes to build viable, PROGRESSIVE electoral coalitions.

You are not organizing, you are apologizing for past and enabling future failure by not learning the lessons of history.

The point of this thread is why the Democrat Party, having won all the marbles, is unable to consummate a liberal, not progressive, deal on health care and a public option.

The “Democratic” in the Democratic Party is part of the party’s name. It’s not being used as an adjective. When you call it the Democrat Party, you are associating yourself with Limbaugh (whether you intend to or not).

I agree with much of what you said in this comment @99.

My question to you has consistently been:

Why are you here distracting people who are trying to do something about it, however much you might think we’re doing so imperfectly, rather than trying to help us do so better or going off and doing something better and more productive yourself?

You’re not advancing a single one of your causes by coming here to pick fights and antagonize people.

At this point, before the moderator jumps in and correctly tells us that it’s time to stop arguing nonsense in circles, I’m off to make a contribution toward getting what we need out of these weak and immoral assholes in Congress.

The point of this thread is to inform people of the problems with our current Congress in order to encourage people to take action. That’s how I interpret Jane’s overall goal with this entire blog.

Why are you here distracting people who are trying to do something about it, however much you might think we’re doing so imperfectly, rather than trying to help us do so better or going off and doing something better and more productive yourself?

Because you all are barking up the wrong tree if you expect that absent a massive public mobilization, that we can force an acceptable outcome from this process.

What Jane is doing with targeting members and putting their political gonads in a vise of reelectoral uncertainty is an excellent first step. But it will take more than that to leverage our numerical superiority against corporate dominance to coerce anything that does not make matters worse.

The point of this thread is why the Democrat Party, having won all the marbles, is unable to consummate a liberal, not progressive, deal on health care and a public option.

The Democrats have fucked this up, like they fucked up in 2000, just as the HRC veal pen has fucked up on gay rights for, oh, the past 30 years. My life is on the line and you expect for me to get along to go along and just get with the program and be a party man?

I want to win, it is fun to win. When you win, people want to associate with you. That paves the way to win more. When you lose, people run for the exits because they do not wish to associate with failure. That is no fun. At the end of the day, this is a lesson in rote political Skinnerism, training oneself to avoid those things that hurt and seek those that are pleasurable.

The point of this thread is why the Democrat Party, having won all the marbles, is unable to consummate a liberal, not progressive, deal on health care and a public option.

No, the point of this thread is to inform people of the problems with our current Congress in order to encourage people to take action.

That’s why it concludes with a link to a petition.

Did you sign the petition?

Have you spent at least five minutes today communicating with a single elected official or his/her office, as I have (Rep. Melissa Bean, Blue Dog-Illinois)?

Arguing endlessly, saying that everything about the Clinton years was bad, and then telling people who point out that there was more good than bad in the 1990s that they’re doing nothing here but defending the DLC is just plain stupid.

Yes, I’ve signed the petition, and I often avail myself of Freedomworks.com’s toll free hotlines to the US Capitol:

(866) 928-3035
(866) 928-0525

As I live in CA-8, I contact Pelosi’s office regularly as a constituent.

That said, there is a connection between why Democrats have failed in the past and why they’re failing now. It is never the time to discuss this, because there are powerful forces which don’t want it discussed. However, I find that it is critical to evaluate our tactics and expectations based on historical examples. If you want to operate ahistorically, where each and every challenge exists in a vacuum, then you can, hell, you are, doing that. But there is a place in discussing the nature of the historical Democrat imperative towards paralysis when it comes time to execute at times like this when people are paying attention WHILE IT IS HAPPENING.

Be sure to sign the FDL Action petition!

the Clinton years are illustrative of how the Democrats actually govern, when they have all the marbles and cannot hide behind their usual “innocent bystander, we don’t have the votes” excuses.

In the words of the late, great co-founder of the Sierra Club, David Brower:

President Clinton has done more to harm the environment and to weaken environmental regulations in three years than presidents Bush and Reagan did in 12 years.

Yes, the Grand Staircase Escalante is an amazing place, just visited its slot canyons this May, and preserving the Kaiparowitz plateau from coal mining is a gift to the ages. But the salvage logging rider was pretty messed up.

But that should be the baseline, and we should not evaluate our accomplishments against the low bar of our opponents. We need to excel for our own sake.

How apparatchik of you, tho, assuming that because I’m a Green, you’ll need to trot out your enviro card to play.

And the question remains as to why Clinton looks like LBJ in retrospect when compared to Obama who looks worse, from a progressive standpoint, than Clinton.

When you set your sites low enough, you can always win!

not sure you got my point, Commandante.

Brower was not the founder of the Sierra Club, that would be John Muir. Brower was the founder of the Sierra Club Foundation. He was also signed off on the Glen Canyon dam and led the Sierra Club into the Veal Pen.

I suppose not even Ed Abbey is righteous enough for you, after all, his books were printed on paper, derived from trees.

but really, is knee-jerk hostility your default setting, sub-commandante Marcos?

my initial post was made in agreement with yours – did the subtlety escape you? the ultra-righteous ultra-radicals are not known for their ways with subtlety and nuance.

I love you Jane!!!

Join the Watch Out for the GOP Movement at http://www.thedopincrecords.com or http://www.myspace.com/watchoutforthegop FREE Political Hip-Hop and more

Troll?

People need to stop taking stupid pills and casting anyone who does not agree with them as a troll or a DINO or whatever.

The world is not 2D, the world is not black and white.

It comes off as “commie” or “socialist” just like that Beck and Bushit.

You really ate up the MSM’s lines. Are you one of those folks who blames the Supreme Courts selection of our President on Nader?

Nader plays an important role in this alleged democracy

Not at all, I’ve been a registered Green since 1991 and voted for Nader in 1996 and 2000.

What happened is the Democrats successfully framed Nader as having spoiled, and that has become the dominant story.

After the dems spend more resources attacking the Greens and Nader than they do attacking the Republicans, they have the audacity to challenge ME when I don’t call their party “Democratic,” rather “Democrat.”

After 2000, Nader became irrelevant, because he was unable to successfully contest that framing; the world changes.

Relax, marcos. We don’t all consider it “trolling.” In fact, some of us think that’s a term that’s used far more frequently than it should be here, and that it’s use is often triggered by some honest disagreement.

If democrats keep fumbling the ball like they have been for the past two years, I expect record percentages for third-parties in 2012 (although they still won’t win, I bet they’ll come close). I’d vote for “Barney the Dinosaur’s Super-De-Duper” party before voting for either of the two insignificantly different ones again, if this is how they’re going to govern.