What did President Obama say new tonight? Absolutely nothing. What did the Human Rights Campaign get in exchange for once again giving our president cover for all of his broken promises to our community? Absolutely nothing.
I like HRC, I know a lot of people who work there, I’ve defended them when others in the community have been highly critical of them. But it is criminal that any gay rights organization would invite an embattled president to their dinner, giving him political cover for repeated broken promises and slaps in the face to our community (like the DOMA incest brief), and then get absolutely nothing in return. HRC’s actions only feed the suspicions of critics who say that the organization is more interested in fundraisers than in advancing our rights.
The President depends on his celebrity power (and its attendant fundraising ability) to get liberal validators like the HRC to shield him from liberal critique and protect his ability to say one thing and do another. It’s good for an organization that serves to fundraise and perpetuate itself, but bad for the cause they purport to further.
The one issue that has plagued the administration more than any other, for which it has no liberal shield, is that of torture and civil rights. And that’s because the ACLU refuses to be part of the veal pen. They were originally a part of Unity 09 but eventually withdrew. They never fit comfortably into the role of providing the White House with liberal cover for actions that were in opposition to what they stand for.
Part of the ACLU’s independence is due to their financial structure. They aren’t easily financially crippled by one or two phone calls from powerful people to big donors. Their integrity would be seriously compromised if they tried to throw a fundraising bash headlined by the very people they are at odds with — especially if the price is dissembling to give them cover. But that’s because those in the civil liberties community would give them unholy hell if they did so.
The organizations in the veal pen can only stay there until their credibility is called into question. And that often means criticizing our friends, people we like, and making them choose between allegiance to power and allegiance to principle. They like to fall back on “different roles for different people” to excuse their actions, but it is without question that Obama was trying to buy himself credit for something he does not deserve last night and protect his ability to do nothing. The HRC gave it to him, just as HCAN gave him liberal cover for an “opt out” provision that will weaken a public option. Richard Kirsch and other veal pen denizens were largely successful in neutralizing liberal criticism that would have screamed in opposition if the same proposal had come from Republicans. Others organizations complied simply by refraining from criticism. The consequences are not inert — they are seriously damaging.
It took courage for John Aravosis to call out the HRC on this. It would have been easy to sit back and let someone else do it, but his criticism is important — it has added impact because he is a prominent gay rights activist. His commitment to the cause he believes in transcends the personal, professional and financial ties that he risks for doing so. His willingness to step forward like this is commendable and until others are willing to follow suit the White House will do nothing about DODT and DOMA. They’ll just keep putting on shows.
Proud to know you, John.





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Thanks, Jane, for calling it as you see it. And yes, I think the HCAN-HRC analogy is quite true. Both are doing good work, HCAN for health care and HRC for LGBT civil rights… But neither seems to have the courage to be “fierce advocates for equality” that we really need. That’s why I’m glad to see folks here in the Netroots/Grassroots do what’s really necessary to win quality, affordable health care AND full federal equality.
Good post, hat tip to John Aravosis.
i think i’m going to be quoting this one a lot.
also… just as HCAN gave cover to dems last summer for pre-compromising away single payer hr 676 – the policy strongly favored by the dem base, the only policy that had genuine progressive grass roots support and organizing in place, and the only truly universal and comprehensive healthcare proposal.
it took courage for nyceve to call out hcan (and moveon when the leadership made the choice to join with hcan — without consulting with the membership) in the summer of 2008 for supporting a policy that would leave private for profit insurance companies in place (and for using deceptive language and “co-opting the rhetoric of the single-payer movement”). and she was right.
Jane –
it was yours and Howie’s reporting of HRC’s 06 endorsement of Lieberman that gave me my first clue as to the veal pen’s existence and reach
good on Aravosis
Is there an implicit critique here?
I’ve said, quite openly, that I don’t think as a matter of strategy it made sense to put resources into fighting for something that has no chance of passing right now. Because the outcome would be a Ralph Nader-like drain off that would result in a far worse bill passing. You can disagree with that but it’s a straight up tactical analysis — it isn’t because of lack of courage.
Excluding single payer advocates from the discussions was wrong. But considering the unrealistic political expectations and the shoddy tactical analysis that many of them embrace as holy writ, maybe it’s also time to step back and analyze the failed practices that the movement’s leaders continue to rely on decade after decade despite their profound lack of success and ask how it could be done better. Because that is what made the exclusion so easy to accomplish.
i don’t think it’s possible to say much about the motivations of HRC or HCAN or anyone else. after all, it’s possible their actions, like yours, are based on what they see as a realistic strategy (for example, maybe they think obama is too popular to organize against?). one can disagree with their choices, and i do (imo HCAN’s deceptive language, co-opting rhetoric and leadership that ignores the views and desires of an organization’s membership is wrong). their motivation, otoh is almost always impossible to know.
however, dissent, such as demonstrated by john or nyceve, is courageous. and i commend it with you.
…..
wrt single payer advocates such as nyceve, everything she and they predicted last summer has come to pass so i’m not so critical as you of their tactical analysis. although i do agree they did not predict how progressive organizations, think tanks and media would shut them out. maybe that would not have happened though, if obamaco had not threatened their funding if they pushed for single payer. in any event, this year, with health care reform on the agenda, i would have liked to see single payer given some air time. if healthcare is a human right, as we agree it is, then whatever one’s short term tactical approach is, it would be good imo to advance rather than set back the cause of what is probably the only policy capable of providing “everybody in, nobody out.”
if single payer advocates’ strategy (which has been populist/movement oriented, not dc centric) does suck (i don’t know that it does, but will concede it for the moment), the dems healthcare policy also sucks. which is why i naively hope for the day when experts on strategy lend the single payer policy experts a hand instead of shutting them out.
I’d appreciate a brief explanation of the term “the veal pen.”
I’ve been trying for figure it out from context, as it’s appeared in several posts, but I just am not totally sure I understand it.
Thanks.
several?? incessantly. . . doggedly
All groups have this concern cash becomes the cause and then death follows and new groups are born
Sorry. I don’t understand your comment.
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=veal%20pen
As in calves for slaughter…
You’re welcome (^v^)
Democratic policy absolutely sucks. But they have the power and you have to find a way to insert yourself into that dynamic. If being right on policy was enough to get them there they would have been there. They weren’t.
If I truly believed that the only thing worth fighting for was 676 and that the damage done by standing back and letting the insurance companies write the health care bill with no opposition was negligible, I would have been yanking the chain of 676 cosponsors from day one. I would have been in their offices asking how they planned to hold up the committee votes, how they planned to get to 218 needed for passage, and how they proposed to stop any bill from passing that did not accommodate them as a fallback.
I’m pretty sure that at the end of it I would have learned that they were almost all full of shit and none of them had any intention of fighting a President who’s stated objective was protecting insurance industry profits. But at least then I’d know that all those smiles full of good will are only there as long as there’s nothing on the line, and I wouldn’t keep thinking that just getting a few more people on board would be enough. I’d be asking myself why these smiling people weren’t exercising the power they had, and what I could do to make them pay a price for their failure to do so.
Which is very much I am right now anyway — without, hopefully, the ACES disaster as a learning cure.
You said “several” I’m being sarcastic because it seems like it’s being used constantly.
Come on, anybody can do the google. WTF does it mean in this context?
Jane says:
“. . . maybe it’s also time to step back and analyze the failed practices that the movement’s leaders continue to rely on decade after decade despite their profound lack of success and ask how it could be done better. Because that is what made the exclusion so easy to accomplish.”
That sums things up nicely in a way only Jane can say it. I was around when HRC began. I watched it morph into a killing competitor of the NGLTF (National Gay and Lesbian Task Force) and become a power player in DC insider politics. I watched Elizabeth Birch throw the transgender members of our community under the bus repeatedly to achieve what she called the “doable” change that never quite came about. I quit donating after HRC repeatedly provided cover for the Clintons after DOMA and DADT. Now I only get an email when they want money and I always put it into the spam folder.
I’ve been at this GLBTQ rights thing now for 30 years. I’ve seen enormous progress made and suffered through many tragedies, not the least of which was burying most of my generation during the AIDS crisis. The changes came about, however, from persistent and coordinated grassroots effort. What can HRC claim as a “victory”? Precious little that isn’t fundraising related. They are timid, cautious, go along to get along. In other words, they are “insiders” now, villagers all.
My own personal hope and prayer is that new organizations with new ideas and new commitments will arise out of today’s march, much like the ones that arose back in 1993 that made extraordinary changes to the healthcare system and government during the AIDS crisis. I’ve always been more ACT-UP and Queer Nation than NGLTF and HRC but that’s because those are the organizations that actually brought about real change and moved us closer to equality rather than buying us a place at the village table with a gag on our mouths.
On Tuesday, a group called Unity Now meets with a high-ranking guy at the White House to “coordinate messaging”. The people who go don’t want to lose their access to the people in power, and some people think the White House will interfere with their funding by getting large donors to pull back. It’s like a veal pen, you keep them in little darkened enclosures so they lose their muscles and their ability to interfere with whatever you want.
A lot of liberal groups do this. NARAL, which endorsed the weakling Joe Lieberman, against the Democratic party candidate in Connecticut, when his general stands were opposed to the interests of the group. There are lots of others.
Jane explains it here
starting at:
friendly advice: that first “veal pen” link – is not for the faint of heart, just stick with her explanation. just sayin’
These Veal Pen groups I assume they are made up of Lefties some of whom are on the Net and well I’m sure they all feel the same discomfort we do and want change now.
I assume they will reach the same conclusions we have some are angry, some want to give him more time some are angry and want to give him more time.
But these Veal Pen groups do what? lobby congress help organize members for a protest or register voters maybe they get interviewed on the news.
Why is Obama courting them I don’t think they can move public opinion much? They can effect Washington current wisdom which effects news coverage but the news has been pretty anti Obama for awhile now.
I don’t think the Veal Pen can change this.
Re the veal pen, thank you!
Regarding the reference in this post to Richard Kirsch and HCAN, I still don’t fully get the unhappiness with Health Care for American NOW that I saw here last Thursday, when the phrase “Rchard Kirsch, the HCAN director and all-around teabagger sage” appeared in a post.
In the post last Thursday, Jane put the phrase out there and never explained it, though I asked about it in the comments to that post. As someone who’s been donating to Health Care for American NOW and who has praised that group for the ads it runs in Tennessee, I’d like to understand this point of view better.
Here is a post where Jane explains it.
The “choose between allegiance to power and allegiance to principle” bit is about challenging them to come out of the pen and to rejoin with their principles.
You beat me to it!
They like to fall back on “different roles for different people” to excuse their actions…
I’m not sure what you’re saying. As we are all different, doesn’t it make sense that we all work in different ways?
Are you saying we should have the same roles?
Forgive me if I’m being dense.
on the eve of the Montgomery Bus boycott, a young Baptist minister introduced himself to the nation with these words:
Sorry, my #22 was for Jane.
Funny the best criticism of the Lefty blogs I’ve heard comes not from the GOP but from a commentor.
Are we settling to fight for doable?
Perhaps that patience is complacency? True patience is tenacious.
I also commend Aravosis for criticizing the Human Rights Campaign, but it’s important to credit Andrew Sullivan for creating a space for that criticism. Sully is no hero of mine, but he stands even farther from the veal pen and has called out HRC loudly and longer than anyone. He does it again today:
Ok the Veal Penn we know they are being asked to be quiet about Obama the Right can say anything including lies but apparently the Left can’t criticize.
I assume I hope Obama promised all these groups something big. However without political pressure from the veal pen or us where will the political pressure come from to make good on these promises?
How will the fight against the happen if we don’t push back? I’m thinking no pushback means no political pressure and that means all those promises made to the veal penn are worth nothing.
Given the presidents poll numbers compared to the GOP’s why even bother making nice to the Veal Penn?
“Doable” is the death of us all.
What we must understand is that this is a society ruled by class.
The pamp[ered upper class twits wouldhave absolutely nothign to do with the Stonewall rioters who made them possible. And I’m not just talking about Marsha P. Johnson, but Morty Manford.
Morty Manford was a friend of mine. Had he not been felled by AIDS he’d be in front of the White house protesting Obama’s mendacity, aided and abetted byt the KAPOS of the HRC.
Unless I am vastly mistaken, Obama cannot, as president, simply overturn DADT (or validate gay marriage, or make/overturn any other law, period) by proclamation. Congress first must pass legislation which he can then sign into law (as he has promised to do with DADT) or not. Or am I missing something?
Here’s my two cents on what happened last night
Andrew is the GOP’s best chance to get moderate votes and one of the smartest GOPers there is which is not saying much but I worry about him.
You are mistaken.
He can — right this minute — institute a “Stop Loss” on DADT.
He can also refuse to fund it.
This post by Jane Hamsher (Sept 6, 2009) regarding Van Jones, the treatment of calves, and “the veal pen” is amazing!
Didn’t members of the Obama campaign similarly tie the hands of MoveOn after he won the nomination last year?
he could end the practice with an executive order
That’s why I found Barney Franks blathering so offensive. How dare he throw a wet blanket on our community when today’s march is the first thing that has brought us back together since I can’t remember when? It’s that fetish for what’s “doable” that has kept us back far longer than necessary. Society as a whole is far more ready to move ahead with equality for all than Washington DC ever will be. I fear, however, that Obama is a disciple of the “doable” school of politics and I know many of his advisers are members.
I’ve never worried about Patient Less Than Zero.
My only concern is those taken in by his mendacity.
I’ll chime in on the Aravosis kudos for this particular case in criticism of the HRC.
But overall it’s important (at least to me) to remember that he was fine in leaving the transgendered out of ENDA. So was Barney Frank. I thought that was wrong.
Barney is a joke.
He would still be in the closet were it not for the hard work and sacrifice of those he despises.
So what John Aravosis is saying is that HRC is no longer ‘ours’ and is now in thrall to fundraising and the current inside-the-beltway regime.
As stated elsewhere on the internet, I’m transgender, transsexual actually.
In fall 2007, HRC supported Barney Frank withdrawing an ENDA that covered both Sexual Orientation (gay, lesbian, bisexual,) and Gender Identity (transgender,) and reintroducing two bills, one for Sexual orientation only, and one for Gender Identity only. The Sexual Orientation Only bill passed the house and disappeared in the Senate.
United ENDA was formed from over 30 national, state and local LGBT groups opposed to dropping transgender inclusion in ENDA. But in the end, after 5 days, HRC acted and supported the tranny-less ENDA that Rep Barney Frank had submitted.
And John Aravosis, along with Chris Crain and a few other bloggers, championed the political expediancy of ditching the trannies under the bus to get something, loudly promising they’d be back for the transgender (after they’d eaten the half-a-loaf they hoped to collect for ditching the icky, freaky trannies.)
I bring up my peculiar transsexual perspective because in order to learn all there is to know about water, you have to study ice and steam. The transgender experience with HRC (and with John Aravosis) is the ice-and-steam of this issue. Or, to use the metaphor from another diary here today at FireDogLake, it’s the Ticking-Time-Bomb scenario that exposes the true depths or shallowness of the organizations commitment to its stated ideals.
And as such, it’s food for thought. And it’s also food for thought that John Aravosis has reached his own limit with HRC, and must bite the hand he formerly licked.
One truth I’ve found — life is nothing if not transition…
Julian Bond is addressing the crowd at the march right now. He’s talking about Bayard Rustin.
Obama can fight for it publicly though in a speech that is not to much to ask and he gives his best speeches about Hope and Change Fighting for Gay rights now would Wag the Dog and motivate his supporters its win /win.
Obama was never going to get the 20%ers its been months of constantly trying to please them it hasn’t worked so Obama might as well energize his base!
I really wonder just who is running his media strategy. This move to the middle stuff cost Hilary the nomination.
Yep. That’s the whole point, progressive groups allow themselves to be penned (put their agendas on hold) in order to maintain their access to the power players who give them nothing in return.
My impression is that members of the Obama administration are playing some version of a triangulation game.
Those of us on the left will have to accept, i.e. won’t like, some things about what they decide to do regarding health care reform, regarding Afghanistan, and regarding DADT.
I think he will end DADT when the time is politically right to hit us over the head with very watered down health care reform and probably sending in more troops to Afghanistan.
My assessment of the tactics is presented a bit simplistically, but I hope you get my point.
Yes Moderate voters are being taken in Andrew is the GOP’s best chance of appealing to Moderates and the GOP needs them to win elections.
“Are we settling to fight for the doable?”
Since objectively speaking fighting for the “un-doable” is impossible, the answer to that question would be “yes.”
We could fight to turn lead into gold, or for the Cubs to win the world series, but it would probably be a better use of resources to fight for something that falls within the realm of the possible.
That doesn’t mean that fights you know you are going to lose don’t often have value in themselves, but that’s quite different from convincing yourself something is possible when it isn’t. Because if you steal resources away from a fight that is potentially winnable in the process (see: Nader, Ralph) your inability to appropriately assess a situation could wind up making things worse.
Holding my head down in shame, I will just admit now that I initially thought it referred to a pen, as in writing instrument, and just couldn’t make sense of it. Thanks for the link to Jane’s amazing 9/6/09 article!
my quote at 23 above is attributed to Rustin
At the march Kate Clinton just took up my perpetual watch-cry — TAX THE CHURCH!!!!!
John Aravosis doesn’t think that transgendered Americans belong in the greater LGBT community, nor that they deserve equal protections. He is in NO position to be preaching tolerance to anybody. That’s like David Hasselhoff giving lectures on temperance.
Thank you. And why, I wonder, doesn’t he do it then? Are there some potential stumbles in the path or is it really just that simple?
“Proud to know” Aravosis? I’ll bet you wouldn’t say the same thing about David Duke but then again in this culture I guess it’s still okay to be a bigoted asshole when it come to transgendered Americans. It’s okay to hate some people, is that it? It’s okay to hate if it’s just such a tiny segment of society? I’m shaking my head with disbelief here.
Suppose in hind sight we had planned more? Suppose we pushed Obama to end the wars first thus freeing up cash that could be used for healthcare later.
All I’m saying is more planning on our part less compromise needed later seems to me to be the lesson we can learn on this fight.
We all hate settling.
Yes, I do understand the energize the base concept — although the Reps seem far better at doing so, at energizing at least a highly vocal handful — than are the Dems, and I wonder why is that?
I almost get the impression that there is more to all of this than meets the eye.
It’s just that simple.
He doesn’t care.
Maybe you can bring up a quote of something John said first? I’m thinking I have heard rumblings but I’m not sure what John has said thats so bad.
Winning allies everywhere this Sunday.
Yeah, it’s my radical opinion as well but I know better than to yell it on CSPAN as a representative of the queer movement.
The Dem base gets energized the rich donors get nervous we are a government by and for the rich after all.
Even I am capable of praising HCAN — as recently as this week.
http://seminal.firedoglake.com/diary/8795#comment-82746
If you don’t allow growth, or praise for good behavior, you cut off the possibility of change.
You “know better”?
I was unaware of this as well so a googling I went :just finished reading it
and although he makes it clear he is making a political and not a values call, I now understand why it pisses folks off
You actually compare Aravosis to Duke? Because he questioned when and how “transgender” became part of the lesbian/gay/bisexual political fight? Here’s a link to his actual post, where he knew he would be called a bigot for simply raising a question about including transgender in the current ENDA was a wise political move.
http://www.americablog.com/2007/10/transgender-fiasco.html
I am transgender and I am outing myself as such here for the first time after years of commenting at the Lake in this response.
I do not find Aravosis to be a bigot and I do not agree that because he questioned something he should be named anathema for all time. That kind of stuff is what destroys any hope of coalition building and achieving consensus. Some transgender are gay/lesbian/bisexual and some are not. I was far more outraged by Elizabeth Birch’s bigotry of low expectations towards transgenders than I am with Aravosis’s honest questions.
I’m proud to read Aravosis and I stand with Jane on this one.
I think perhaps Margaret is overstating Aravosis’ position somewhat. In this Salon article Aravosis says he supports transgender rights. Having said that, it does appear he thinks the Ts should take a back seat to make it easier for Congress to pass legislation favorable to the Gs and Ls. The old everybody is equal but some are more equal than others approach.
Thank you for the link.
Fight for what you can get makes sense in only one situation, IMO.
When the only outcome you’ll accept is victory over the true enemy.
Otherwise, fight for what you can get can devolve into fighting for scraps, like desperate inmates of a prison camp.
Dustin Lance Black is on stage right now pointing out all the massive changes that Presidents have ordered without waiting for Congress to produce bills, eg. integrating the military.
Book Salon up at the Mothership with David Cole’s Torture Memos: Rationalizing the Unthinkable hosted by bmaz
Or the “we have an ENDA bill that we’ve been working on for quite some time that doesn’t include transgender and there’s a very good chance we can pass this bill through the current house and senate as written. If we add transgender suddenly then it kills the bill entirely and we start over, so transgender folk don’t benefit in any way and gays, lesbians, and bisexuals remain 2nd class citizens too. Everyone loses but there will be solidarity!” That’s called pragmatism in my book.
Frankly, John is wrong. John knew Obama’s stance on gay marriage before the election. Obama hasn’t broken any promises on LGBT issues….yet. So, he’s jumping the gun here.
“Tiny segment”?
Professor Lynn Conway pretty much tore down the ‘psychiatric authorities’ estimate of 1:30,000 as a political dodge to deliberately understate the numbers so as not to freak out those susceptible to fear and revulsion towards transgender folks.
She established an estimated bound of between 1:2,500 and 1:200, including non-operation transitioned transgender folks.
1:2,500 is 1/25ths percent, is 122,000 Americans
1:200 is 1/2 percent, is 1,525,000 Americans
Yahp, tiny percentages, but we could still pretty well fill two sports stadiums with the lower-bounds figure if you could gather all of us together, including the ones practicing the neocon-like deep-stealth of denial — while the upper bounds figure would make for one helluva protest at the National Mall in Washington DC, easily dwarfing the 9/12/09 Tea Party turnout by a ratio of 21 ‘trannies’ for every Teabagger that showed up that day.
Don’t argue percentages, argue numbers.
The underlying assumption here is that we could’ve ended the wars, which is just not true. If we could have done that we would have years ago.
What’s called for is a realistic appraisal of what you can accomplish, and a fierce dedication to accomplishing it.
I just got another email telling me to call my representatives because victory is at hand for the Weiner amendment. If I had a representative who could vote I would very much want them to vote for the Weiner amendment but I dismiss the email because I think the person writing it is attempting to deceive me, or terribly naive and either way I shouldn’t trust them in the future. I would have more respect for them if they said “we need to keep fighting for this no matter what happens.” I’d also be more likely to call.
Michael Huffington is now speaking.
I’m seeing bad stuff and I’ve seen the good stuff John does on his blog the Gay community can hash out the issues on this fight I would need more information to comment either way on an in house fight.
Some would say passing a health care reform bill without a robust public option is pragmatism.
The line at which passing a bill becomes more important than standing up for one’s principles is something everyone has to decide for themselves. I can’t blame transgendered folks for feeling like they’ve been sold out, though.
Yes, quite true, money buys everything, esp. power. I wonder what it would be like if the situation were reversed, if the poor ruled. Would things be a lot different? Would DADT be an immediate casualty? Would the Military Industrial establishment be quickly dismantled and disabled for all but defense? Would health care be guaranteed for all, would education for all be adequately funded? I have my doubts, actually. I think I see more lurking in the shadows than just money (or lack of), power (or lack of) — there is a larger hammer. Is it intolerance? Intolerance of anything other than what I’ve been taught to believe is immutable? I think there’s a case to be made that biblical and patriotic belief systems are not necessarily logical, nor are their fruits necessarily palatable to an egalitarian point of view.
Or you can make peace learn to get along and both prosper “no nation has ever benefited from a long war ”
Sun Tze we are fighting 2 very long wars knowing when to quit is a sign of a good leader.
a wry smile as I recall your “I’m the girl” riposte at NN Vegas 06 :D
I am proud to know Aravosis and he did something important here. Please do not try to drag the conversation into ridiculous escalating ad hominum attacks, because it’s the kind of thing that discourages others from doing likewise and undermines your own credibility at the same time.
Neither one of these is a good thing.
What’s John wrong about? I’m not seeing it.
Heh — that’s funny. Forgot about that.
I don’t disagree.
I’m just questioning whether it makes sense to fight for much less than what you really want.
Fine you are right about the political reality But how about the fiscal reality how can we pay for the wars? If we don’t stop the wars now the debt will destroy our economy.
Ok I can agree to that fighting for something else we can win might be a better approach.
Please do not try to drag the conversation into ridiculous escalating ad hominum attacks, because it’s the kind of thing that discourages others from doing likewise and undermines your own credibility at the same time.
I’m hoping you meant it ENCOURAGES instead of discourages.
Maybe I read you wrong.
Crazy dayz, Indeed?
I actually have some issues with HRC stemming from legislative work I was involved in, in the ’90s, when they basically stabbed me in the back repeatedly over something I won’t get into because I’m too much of a coward to say what I worked on or who I am, but they basically sold out the progressive position on a key domestic and international human rights/women’s rights debate in exchange for a tax credit and ’cause they wanted to make nice with the WH, which in turn was trying to make nice with several very unsavory foreign countries. As a result of their backroom dealing, they effectively helped to delay US accession to a key international treaty, that could have saved hundreds of lives, for a decade. Their “deal” put them into bed on this issue with Focus on the Family, the Family Research Council, and other far right groups – a pure marriage of convenience. To be fair, they probably calculated that a Dem would be elected in 2001 and that the stall they helped cause was only going to go over for a couple of years and not until the beginning of the Obama presidency, but that’s what they get for behaving like Republicans. All in all, I’ve never forgiven them, and I don’t trust them.
Hillary’s position was worse on gay issues than Obama’s. So it’s not clear who you would have preferred we support. Sitting back and letting McCain become president was simply not an option. Yeah, we trusted Obama. And now, we’re holding him publicly accountable for his promises.
I don’t understand your point. We can’t stop the wars but we should because we can’t afford them?
For one thing, it’s not true according to Dean Baker. We had this conversation the other day, and I was surprised to hear him say that the cost of war isn’t unbearable relative to the economy. It’s immoral yes but it isn’t even close to destroying our economy.
But more than that, I don’t understand where putting all your energy into an unwinnable battle gets you. It seems smarter to approach the same thing from another direction that might actually have a chance of working. We need to stop conflating goals and strategy. Someone assumes they are right on the goal (ending the war) so they must be right on the strategy (say, demonstrating) despite the fact that it hasn’t worked for the past eight years.
Goals and strategy are not the same. The fastest way to end the war might be campaign finance reform, or redistricting. You don’t know. But until you start adjusting to the realities of the situation, admitting that repeating failed tactics aren’t going to get anywhere and opening yourself up to new possibilities, you’re just fighting for the right to lose.
You read my mail.
Too many “circuit queens” and
lesbians“gay women” playing that old refrain, We’re just like you, see!Not enough Drag Queens, Bears, or Radical Dykes.
What rot. Keeping single-payer off the table was the first step in a downward spiral you’ve been so eloquently describing for months, now. They baby was thown out with the bath water, so to speak.
I’m not sure it’s worth rehashing old issues. I’ll simply note that yours was definitely one point of view at the time, and I respect that. And numerous longtime activists in the community held another, different, point of view from your own, and I respect that too. Hopefully we can agree to work together on the issues that unite us.
I hate to say it, but I do find it interesting that a lot of the critics here (and elsewhere in the progressive ether) are the very same people who attacked non-Obamacrats, like me during the election, who claim they voted for Nadar, repeatedly, who shift back and forth onto the fictitious third party bandwagon which they themselves do nothing to advance, and who are now so keen to see the Public Option go down in flames just because they feel dissed over Medicare-for-all. I’m afraid I have less sympathy for them than you do.
imo, different strokes for different folks. people have different talents, inclinations, temperaments, and inspiration. that’s why some people are pushing hard on the overton window for transformational change, some people are working the insiders’ game for incremental change and some people doing everything in between. we can and will argue about tactics, priorities and lots more, but imo it’s all good so long as we do our work according to the values (honesty, little d democracy, etc) and goals (equality, human rights, etc) we claim to share.
ymmv.
As for HRC, I’m afraid that there are two possible (and neither very charitable) explanations for what is turning into a pattern of behavior IMO. Either they have allowed themselves to become beholden to the fundraising/dealmaking game in DC, in which case they’re just another lobbyist hiding behind their legitimate advocacy roots, or their leadership is so insecure about themselves and their cause that a call from the WH pleading for more time or an invite to a WH photo op or whatever is sufficient to get them to turn their back on their own. Neither, if true, would speak well for their leadership role.
please, i beg you, stop seeing this issue through the lens of the primary wars. there are thousands of grass roots activists who have been working to advance medicare for all (i was introduced to their work in 2001 — and there has been much progress since then even if nowhere near enough). there are good reasons, even if you don’t share them, to think the public option will be a massive fail that have nothing to do with obama or clinton. imo that outcome is more likely than not, which is why i commend jane’s work to try to prevent that (even though i disagree with her re the precompromise).
I guess my concern is that I see some of the same tactics these folks used during those primary wars being used again and again, and now on healthcare and in so many of our other debates (and I don’t just mean FDL.. the same pattern occurs elsewhere on our side of the aisle): attack liberal Dems for not being progressive enough while at the same time threatening to undermine the progressive agenda by helping to deliver victories to the right, in order to make some kind of point. It’s a pattern of behavior I’m getting very concerned about. I’d love to stop bringing up the primary wars, but I’m seeing the same pattern of behavior, over and over again. The battles here are pretty clear to me and difficult enough as they are. We don’t need a peanut gallery of naysayers on the left. I apologize for being so blunt, but this is what I feel reading some of things that are so frequently brought up on our side of the aisle. Policy differences are fine. I accept that there are differing perspectives within our party over everything from healthcare to how to dismantle DADT… but scorched earth tactics within the progressive camp really aren’t OK. I accept and support that to advance the progressive cause as a whole I will need to put my time and my voice into things that I don’t fully agree with. I ask that y’all accept the same.
that is also my opinion. but i’m no strategy expert. at some point though, perhaps when this legislative battle is over, i hope to learn more about how that happened. iirc david swanson said that the dem leadership sold their plan to progressive orgs as an alternative, more realistic, path to single payer (they lied) and there are also reports of obamaco threatening progressives with loss of funding.
i agree with this. but i don’t see it as limited to one side or the other. triangulation sucks too.
This is too funny. Want to change some minds in Washington? Let’s gather 2 million people to march in Washington! Oh wait! That’s too much work and we all know the large liberal blogs are run by people who think of protesting as something the juveniles do. Hell, even Barney Frank agrees with ya on that one. Here’s what he said about the march for gay rights in DC today:
I would like that very much, working together.
In real life, I’m a federal employee. ENDA is VERY important to me.
I was very lucky that I had senior managers whose moral beliefs were favourable to my transitioning at work. What kind of an employee I was was the only issue, and they supported my transition. So did my immediate supervisor.
Not so for the mid-level manager, a Pentecostal. This manager worked with a fellow churchmember in the HR to research and interpret federal workplace rules to be as restrictive towards me as they possibly could. This led to my suffering many indignities, such as being told others had every right to address me using male forms of address, and I had no right to ask that they do otherwise.
John, I really wanted an ENDA that included me be enacted into law. At the height of the indignities directed at me, that hope was dashed by Rep. Frank, and HRC, and a couple of influential Gay bloggers, and the gays and lesbians who left comments of agreement at those blogs and at news stories about the ENDA fiasco. It sucked to be me.
But I’m not recounting this for a pity-party, but to put a personal face on that incident. I want to work together on issues that unite us.
On close examination, the trans community is dis-united, though to a segment of the gay and/or lesbian community, it may be difficult to tell us apart. The same is true of society in general, in that they see trans women as extremely effeminate gay men.
We know the differences, we have differing priorities and viewpoints, and yet we, L, G, B and T, have common cause in ENDA, in DOMA repeal, in Hate Crimes, DADT repeal, and Marriage Equality.
Can we work together and support each other in achieving these goals?…
Yes he did. He also hates the poor. Seriously, maybe Obama is looking for better representatives for the LGBT community to listen to then some of the current crop we have now? Hey could be! Don’t know, but I do know I stopped listening to Johnny a long time ago.
What got me about the Obama speech was listening to the audience clapping wildly like a bunch of blithering idiots! Obama is president, now, you numskulls! We should be hearing specifics on how and when, not another campaign speech about “what I plan to do when I’m elected.” Polite applause” would have been a more appropriate and effective way of showing Mr. Obama we are sick of his do nothing administration.
He deleted/scrubbed the post from the Internet (the one about the poor getting $300). But! I have it on one of my past posts because I knew he would delete it:
http://whitenoiseinsanity.com/2008/01/24/john-aravosis-of-americablog-is-a-right-wing-asshat/
Here’s the transgendered post he did that basically said to the transgendered, “We’ve got our attention….you get your own!”:
http://www.americablog.com/2007/10/transgender-fiasco.html
TCU, I say this to you respectfully, so I hope you will take it that way.
I have a really hard time understanding your posts sometimes because they lack punctuation. I value what you have to say, but I struggle to understand it.
Would it be possible for you to take a minute more in your posts and include the necessary commas and periods? I’d really, really appreciate it.
Thank you.
Bingo.
And like Jane’s post, about as clear and straight forward to the truth as you can get.
Enuff of the orgs that joined the villagers in the veal pen.
Change now. Not further assimilation and neutering.
Great comment. Thanks.
I’m straight, but I lost a few dear friends to AIDS in the 80′ around the Bay Area before I moved out in ’88. I thought that hurt, but I could never, and not now, ever feel the pain the LGBT community must have felt or now feel for that loss. An entire generation, wiped out, block after block around the Bay Area, around the USA.
And The Band Played (Plays) On.
Hats off and hands on heart for Randy Schilts.
And to you, for your losses.
Thanks again, for your comment.
SF Peninsula, ’63-’88.
That Baptist minister made that freedom bell ring, and he had a hammer AND a song.
Worlds apart, Mary Travers, and MLK, yet bonded to the hip.
Heroes.
don’t blame you; that email was very wrong.
probably similar to my reaction when i see some nonsense along the lines of “the po is like medicare” or “the po will compete to keep insurance companies honest” or “the po will compete to lower healthcare costs.”
imo, deceptive/misleading statements are not acceptable.
What Harry Truman would have thought of Obama’s gay rights speech
I was just reading what Wikipedia has to say about Obama’s actions to date with respect to Don’t Ask Don’t Tell in their general review of DADT. And his actions sure look Seriously Cynical to me. While claiming that he lacks the power to repeal DADT himself, he has blocked every effort on the part of progressive Democrats in Congress to introduce amendments to Defense appropriation bills to prevent investigations of suspected gay service men and women under DADT. At the same time Obama’s “Justice” Department has repeatedly defended DADT in Federal court–going so far as to argue that service men and women should not be allowed even to have their individual cases reviewed in court! Contrast that two-faced Presidential behavior with Harry Truman’s truly courageous desegregation of the US Armed Forces by executive order on July 26, 1948–in the midst of a Presidential campaign he was expected to lose–and against the adamant opposition of both the Joint Chiefs of Staff and most of Congress at that. Just because fair-minded Harry (who was my dad’s haberdasher before getting into politics) thought racial desegregation of the Armed Forces was THE RIGHT THING TO DO. Can you believe such a thing? Truman split the Democratic party down the middle; lost the south to the “Dixiecrats:” and enraged the whole Defense Department against him–in the midst of a tight election no less–because the man saw black servicemen being lynched all over the south for the sole “crime” acting “uppity” after coming back from fighting in World War II. So he decided it was time to put the power of the Presidency on the line in the fight for racial equality–no matter what it cost him personally–because IT WAS THE RIGHT THING TO DO! And Obama pretends he doesn’t have the Presidential power??? “Give ‘em Hell!” Harry would have called that a hand job!
The HRC has had 2/3 public support for housing and workplace LGB discrimination protections (with support for trans inclusion growing all the time) for almost two decades now, yet has been unable to captialize and bank a win even though they’ve appealed to the more moderate and conservative forces in DC. They’ve allowed wealthy plaintiffs and hetero politicians to set the LGBT agenda in a way that has held up consolidating where we have broad popular support while not achieving their drive to secure access to the most conservative institutions, marriage and the military.
We’ve been waiting decades for a win, and the HRC has not delivered. Where do we go to get accountability?
Our first clue should be the HRC’s “=” symbol, which should be “≥” .
I agree with John Aravosis. Hence the following letter to Obama today.
12 October 2009
Good morning Mr. President,
I listened to the speech you gave to the Human Rights Campaign on Saturday evening sir. As always, Mr. Obama, your words were powerful and comforting and inspiring. And I was especially glad to hear you call on citizens to “organize and agitate” in their efforts to hold all politicians accountable, including you.
So to that point, how is it that you can continue to ask for patience on so many critical policy issues to which time and precedent are already having catastrophic impact? We are losing American citizens, death loses Mr. President, to war, to health care for profit and to hate crimes today. Not in the ideal future sir. Not in the near future sir. Right now.
I would encourage you to emphasize less, Mr. Obama, your articulate calls to action directed to others, we’re already at full speed. Instead Mr. President I encourage you to call yourself to action sir. You can reverse Ask Don’t Tell now. You can decrease troops in Afghanistan now sir. You can stand up and insist we start over on health care reform right now sir. Do not sign these terrible bills with their horrible consequences; more profit for the wealthy and continued inaccessible health care for the disenfranchised.
We, the majority of citizens in this country, already recognize that the 49 million dollars contributed to the current Senate finance committee members by the health insurance industry makes that group the antithesis to what you promised us in terms of gathering ‘apt designers’ of health care reform. Could you please, sir, today, right now, write yourself a speech that addresses that point, post it on YouTube and actually listen to yourself, actually get yourself organizing and agitating. We could really use your help.
With respect and determination,
Linda Rohan, ARNP
cc:
citizens
Rep Jim Mcermott
Mr. David Loud
Senator Patty Murray
Senator Maria Cantwell
Senator Max Baucus
Bottom line for me is that HCAN has been waffling according to what they think the insiders want, not fighting for what the people want. They did not fight for the public option despite polls showing support. As soon as Obama had closed door meetings with stakeholders and started backing off of the public option, they did as well. They are a megaphone for Washington, not a grassroots driven entity.
I’m an outsider to these issues, but I don’t understand this stance. I live in Prop 8 hate land and I don’t know of anyone who is against gay rights who doesn’t put transgender in the same category. I don’t see how you buy more political feasibility by cutting out transgenders. For those I know who are willing to fight for gay rights, it also doesn’t matter. I don’t know anyone who believes gays should have rights that transgenders should not. Maybe I’m missing something from only seeing my area, but I really don’t see how throwing transgenders under the bus gets anyone anything. It sounds more like the conservadems crying about their conservative constituents because they don’t want a public option, not because their constituents don’t want it.