When Howard Dean made a statement saying that he would vote for the public option opt-out over the Baucus bill, many took that as an endorsement. But it was so loaded down with caveats I had a hard time believing that it represented the ringing endorsement that many assumed it was.
Charles Chamberlain is the the Executive Director of DFA, the grassroots political organization founded by Howard Dean. I asked him where DFA stood on the opt-out. His response:
Every American deserves the choice of a public option, not just those who live in Democratic states. Further, it is impossible to allow states to opt-out and still be a national plan. It would be a morally unacceptable compromise if Democratic Senators let Republican states opt-out because too many Americans would continue to suffer and in some cases even die without health coverage. It’s time for Democrats to stop negotiating with themselves in an attempt to get Republican votes. The majority of Americans want a public option and are depending on the Democratic Majority in congress to pass real reform with a national public option available to everyone on day one. We have the majority votes needed in both houses of Congress to pass a public option now, It’s time to get the job done.
Proponents of the veal pen opt-out argue that it’s necessary because there “aren’t 60 votes in the Senate” for a public option. What they are saying is that there are members of the Senate Democratic caucus who would take the unprecedented step of joining with the opposition party to break a filibuster-proof majority and keep their own bill from coming to the floor.
But they have failed to produce even one Senator who will publicly say that. They’re capitulating without forcing those members to pay the political price of making that public admission. Does Joe Lieberman or Ben Nelson or Blanche Lincoln or Mary Landrieu have the political courage to do that? We may never know, because the veal pen “opt-out cop-out” protects them from that exposure.
Moreover, Rachel Maddow recently reported that the Democrats may revoke the leadership of anyone in the caucus who filibusters health care. But if the veal pen “opt-out cop-out” means they get what they want without having to take that step, no price paid. Blanche Lincoln keeps the chair of Senate Agriculture. Joe Lieberman keeps his gavel on Homeland Security. Their implicit threat gets them what they want. Rahm is happy, and the Blue Dogs, the “centrists” and the lobbyists control the health care debate once again.
If the Republicans were suggesting something that could keep the public option’s benefits from 23% of the population and add $6-25 billion to the cost of the bill, we’d be screaming bloody murder. But because it’s being floated by veal pen trigger pimps and those willing to stamp it with the good liberal housekeeping seal of approval, somehow it’s “acceptable.”
That’s always been the danger of the veal pen. The word of these liberal institutional validators carries tremendous weight with progressives, and if the White House can easily use them to launch these kinds of stealth missiles into the progressive political space, the damage they can do is much, much worse than anything the GOP could muster. Things suddenly become acceptable to progressives that would leave them screaming bloody murder if George Bush tried the same thing.
DFA is right. Leaving red states behind in a health care overhaul is deeply immoral. That’s consistent with what Howard Dean told the Huffington Post — opt outs are not his ideal for health care reform, and they shouldn’t be considered unless there is absolutely no other option.
If the veal pen organizations want to promote the opt-out, they need to prove that there is no other option. They need to force Lieberman and Landrieu and Nelson and Lincoln to say they will filibuster a health care bill with a public option. But they have failed to do that. And in doing so, they’re protecting these “centrists” from the consequences that should result in them losing their power in the Senate. Contact them and ask them to speak out against the opt-out like DFA has. And if they won’t, ask them why.



153 Comments








Support this site!
Subscribe to the newsletter
Advertise on Firedoglake
Send
us your tips
Make us your homepage
About FDL Action
Veal pens: deathtraps for animal rights, human rights, and 48 million Americans.
Good on DFA for walking away from the whole bloody mess.
I don’t understand why no one is clearly saying that Obama is joined at the hip with Rahm and as a single entity, the ORHAMA monster is pushing the crummiest health care bill that can be devised. ORHAMA is fulfilling the promises to the insurance industry and PhRMA that were made in secret–promises of greater profits, more lower class losers who would be mandated to pay with their blood so the medical industrial complex can give themselves bigger bonuses and pay greater dividends to their investors.
OBAMA CHOSE RAHM, A FELLOW CHICAGO BLUE DOG! OBAMA OKAYS EVERYTHING RAHM SAYS AND DOES! OBAMA WANTS WATERED DOWN HEALTH CARE! OBAMA DOES NOT WANT A PUBLIC OPTION AND NEVER DID!
OBAMA is selling us out. WHY CAN’T ANYONE SAY THAT LOUD AND CLEAR?
Great work as always, Jane !
The lefty proponents of the opt-out plan are self defeatists, or they are bought and paid for. Call them out, make them reveal the basis of their stand … it’s the only way to defeat them and remove them from power.
Kirk !
every american deserves equal treatment under the law.
opt-out would be much like a missouri compromise.
it would allow some states to reserve unto themselves the right to abrogate the rights of their residents.
no state should be allowed to decide to ignore or opt-out of a federal human rights provision or law.
the republican plans thus far revealed appear to be simply support for big business (insurance companies) with no provision to protect the american public. the democrats need to move beyond trying to appease the republican opposition on human rights. we need to look to our moral stance on this and stop haggling over money. are our fellow americans human beings? does any god give us the right to stand aside while they suffer and die? opt-out would simply create a class of beggars who will die while others who live in more enlightened states will live. it is a bad idea all around.
If the president is forcing us to force him, fine. We force. FDR said it, “I want to do it, now you have to make me”
Then consider it done sir. We will not accept anything else, and we will not accept it in 2013 or 2012, 2011 or 2010. It will have to be immediate. We no longer have the time to wait for your partisan ramblings and promises that are appearing more and more empty.
Let us know what else we have to do, because it will get done. Count on it. The people have realized that all of their elected national representatives are taking bribes to get that job. The secret is out that all of you peddle influence and take payoffs.
So get this. This time you will do it our way. No excuses, no changes to what we want at all. Free health care for every god damn one of us, starting now, and you get to figure out how it is done. We don’t give a damn. You get to start the ball rolling now, and we can ask our various health care providers to send the receipt to the government and you can pay them later if you think you can get away with it. But not us. Never again. The rich people have taken everything that they can steal and then bribed lawmakers to say it isn’t enough, and that they want more. Nope. This time, they get nothing at all. In fact, if they get in the way, they aren’t likely to understand what happens to them by the little people they run over every day with the great big truck.
Get it done, and stop the petty crap listening to a bunch of shit for brains congress people argue about the nonsense that they call legislating.
And just so you aren’t confused, we will be asking for quite a lot more after you have fixed this. And you will accede to our demands. Do you understand? You can start by never saying insurance and health in the same sentence except as a term of derision.
Get to work and we mean now.
Petro!
It’s starting to get cold up here … wanna switch homes ? *g*
OT Is anyone else having to login every time you leave and come back? I am and don’t know why.
AND THE KILLIN’ GOEZ ON AND ON AND…
Citizen Hamsher and the Firepup Freedom Fighters:
Come on Sister Hamsher, let’s make this poor dead horse into some useful dogfood like Howard Dean tried to do and stop the distraction from the real point of attack. Brother Dean said that if a narrow opt-out bill that was limited to legislative initiatives and not referenda or Governor’s fiat and included Medicare plus 5% and some immediate implementation like lowering the Medicare eligiblity threshold to 50 years etc. then he would vote for the “opt-out”. This is a distraction and as you have been sayin all along nobody is draggin any bandwagon for it…so let it go. Jesus Citizen Hamsher, just at the time that the hard vote count is takin shape for 50 plus votes and the progressives in the Senate are hammerin’ One Hung Harry Reid to whip the corporate mercenary Blue Dogs into shape for cloture we are runnin around chasin’ a Chiffon elephant. Let’s get educated on how Reid can put the HELP bill out to the floor with rules that will make it accessable to amendment to get Medicare plus and immediate implementation into the God damned bill.
“Opt-out” isn’t even a poison pill at this point ‘cuz there ain’t a bill to kill yet. Let’s keep the eyes on the fuckin’ prize here and stop tryin ta climb a hill that ain’t there.
KEEP THE FAITH AND PASS THE FUCKIN AMMUNITION, AND DON’T SHOOT AT DEAD HORSES!!
P.S. I’m surprised that you aren’t all in a tizzy ovrer Obama’s remarks this AM that emphasized “insurance reform” and didn’t once mention a “pubic option”…I’m sure this means that he and his trusty sidekick Rahm are fixin’ ta endorse the Baucus bill and will completely fuck themselves and the party over for 2010…they’re pretty stupid ya know!
The same thing is happening with me
This seems to me more like something the Villagers want more than anything else. I’m sure it was floated to see how Progressives would respond to the idea and the Villagers are, as usual, telling us that if we’re smart, we’ll respond the way they think we should. Jonathan Alter, Lawrence O’Donnell, Tweety, etc want us to believe that they are liberal voices but in the end, they are just Villagers first.
It’s divide and conquer… just like the days of slavery.. and current right to work states.
Yep…happens off and on…last couple a days.
Maybe you should call yourself Profane Flamethrower or even Norke Cursechucker. Seriously, is there a reason for all of the bile?
That’s been happening to me for over a week. Today is the first time I logged on this morning and was still logged in when I returned just now.
It’s not a distraction and it’s foolish to think that it is. Getting this out there has been a full-court press, and it becomes the default “liberal” position that will be negotiated down again and again and again until health care reform is nothing but an insurance industry bailout. Medicare plus five is important. I think we’ve written about that many, many more times than anyone else has. So it’s not like we can only write about one things.
As Malcolm X said — don’t be a chump.
Because we have you to scream it at us in all caps! ;-)
Just went to see Capitalism: A Love Story. Learned something new. When UAW members occupied an auto plant and were surrounded by an army of company goons, FDR, in cooperation with the governor of Michigan, sent in the National Guard. Not to fire on the workers but to train their guns on the goons. In the end, UAW won. Because they were fighters and FDR was a fighter. Obama is no fighter.
Funny, I’d thought that opt-out was the Democrats negotiating with themselves in an attempt to get Democrat votes.
Isn’t it a sop to Baucus, Conrad, Landrieu and Lincoln to give them cover to kill a filibuster?
What browser are you using?
A good synopsis. The leadership still seems to be motivated to help the medical lobbies, and screw the rest of us. There have been so many times when their actions could have said otherwise, and didn’t.
Wholeheartedly agree! The reason we don’t have single payer now like every other civilized country is because of the unfortunate trait of liberals to take a wait and see attitude. Then, when we see that we’re going to be screwed, it’s too late to object because all of the deals have been made and all the money has changed hands. The time to object is when something ugly is introduced, not right before it is voted on.
I had to when I came back this morning. There were some changes implemented last night. They managed to break the editing feature again in The Seminal.
I’m using the most recent Explorer Jane. I could switch over to firefox but m’eh, it’s not that hard to log in. :-)
The fight is far from over!
But why are we fighting with the Democratic Party’s leadership over this?
Anyone else want to stick a letter like this one in an envelope and mail it?
Citizen Margaret:
I’m sorry if my choice of words offends your delicate sensibilities…I will, however, try and reduce some of the harsher epithets to make those that remain more powerful. The “colorful” language is used for emphasis and I think you’ve got a point that overuse of the emphatics can reduce the impact. But sometimes callin’ “bullshit” to be “bullshit” is better’n tryin’ ta describe it as “fecal matter from a male bovine”. Thanks for your expression of concern…now go back to sleep.
But why are we fighting with the Democratic Party’s leadership over this?
I’m going to guess that it’s the stupendous amount of money that’s coming from those medical lobbies right now to their candidates. Those dollars could be going to the GOP’s candidates instead, and that’s the real point of giving it to the Democrats right now.
I can’t claim to know what’s on the minds of Democratic leadership, but that’s what would be on my mind in their place, regardless of what position I supported.
That’s a great letter but it seems to presume that what Reid wants is a strong public option but it seems to me that he’s been doing nothing but fishing for excuses to kill it to me. Sure some of it has been cover for conservadems but he’s the majority leader! You’d think that if he wanted to act, he would have lit a fire under Baucus months ago.
I don’t have a problem with calling bullshit, bullshit. I DO have a problem with the patronizing tone of your last comment however. This is why I only recently started commenting at FDL, though I’ve been lurking for years and years. I’m sick of people hiding behind false names and keyboards and presuming themselves smarter and better informed than anybody else. You have no idea who I am, what I do or what is important to me and I will thank you to never make such absurd assumptions again.
Good day.
Citizen Hamsher:
My point was that Howard Dean said he would support an “opt-out” if the bill was a strong one that would work…that effectively puts the whole concept into a context that can be put back into storage. Keep the focus on the substance of the bill that hasn’t taken shape yet and let’s get educated on how a good bill can get put together on the floor of the Senate and then force a vote. There is process and substance and at this point the “opt-out” is neither so let’s focus on how a good bill gets put together and how it gets called to a vote.
I tried to contrast what Reid’s working to do – find an excuse NOT to bring a real health care reform bill to the floor – and what he SHOULD be doing, working hard to bring a real health care reform bill to the floor in triumphant victory. Why isn’t he? I’m not presuming he wants a strong public option, as much as telling him that he’s a failure as a leader of Democratic Party.
Maybe if I change it to:
The last paragraph remains the same.
What did you have for lunch today, sister?
Cool your heels. There’s no need to get all personal.
Sheesh.
Money usually is the corrupting factor, but didn’t Howard Dean, founder of the DFA, and Barack Obama, President of the United States, prove in 2004 and 2008 that the people can contribute, $100 at a time, some serious tons of cash, too?
And, cash aside, had it not been for the energy of the Dean supporters in 2004 and of the Obama supporters in 2008, would their efforts have had any success at all?
My question to Reid is rhetorical. He knows the answer to the question. The answer is that we shouldn’t be fighting him at all.
Tired of hiding behind my keyboard, so I’ll go to the gym. But, I’ll be baaaaack. Make no mistake. *g*
21st century courtiers
I like that one. I would add:
Something along those lines.
So I should allow someone to speak to me like I’m an unruly child? Nope, sorry, can’t do that. I’ve had too many men in my life deciding unilaterally that they are my boss.
Citizen Margaret:
Oh dear, it sounds to me like you have a lot of issues about bloggin’ in a free speech zone that don’t have a whole lot to do with colorful language…dear me, if you are really concerned about “people hiding behind false names and keyboards and presumiong themselves smarter and better informed than anybody else” then that’s somethin yer gunna hafta deal with out here on the great electronic frontier. But don’t call me out for profanity when your real issue is you don’t like my arguments. If you are that worked up, I’m truly sorry, maybe take a pill and go back to sleep.
Don’t forget…go to nyceve’s POP campaign. Donate and get cool stuff.
I feel it is wrong to let people die, suffer in pain, deny them medical treatment, or force them to go bankrupt because they get sick or have an accident. The moral evil in this ‘opt-out’ scheme is that people WILL die, for the sake of a dubious political strategy.
Decent basic medical care is and ought to be recognized as a simple human right, a civil right. There is NO such thing as a person who does not deserve medical care.
The flip side of corporate contributions is that they can cut both ways for an elected, both as contributions towards you and contributions to eliminate you. In our local scene, Real Estate plays a similar role in threatening challenge to any elected who doesn’t play ball and make with the entitlements. Real estate also funds astroturf to provide the illusion of broad based popular support by claiming that progressive initiatives have all sorts of objectionable policies that simply are not in the proposals. When freedomworks pulled this in August, it looked all too familiar to me.
Jane:
I agree with much of what you say, however why do you believe that excluding 23% of the population, presumably all being eligible for the PO, would raise the cost of the PO by $6-25 billion. After all the cost of the premiums for the PO plan, and derivatively the cost of the associated government subsidies, are given by the aggregate cost of the health services given to all beneficiaries divided by the number of beneficiaries.
This means that as the number of beneficiaries falls (the denominator) so too the aggregate cost of delivered care falls (the numerator). So that the cost of the premiums for the remaining 77% of PO recipients may not change at all or even be decreased, the calculation isn’t clear.
I realize that this is not a fatal flaw in your argument nor does it go to the main point of your reasoning, but it may serve to temper the purely financial consequences of the opt out plan.
Also many times you cast Rahm as being the foil of your attacks, not that I give a rat’s ass for the guy, but is he really such a Rasputin. In these cases isn’t the foil really Obama.
But in the interest of keeping the peace, I’ll leave now and possibly go back to lurking. Good day all. :-)
Excellent addition. I might take it a little farther. Did you see the petition that calls on Reid to strip all leadership titles from any Democrat in the Senate who sides with the Republicans to block a real health care reform bill from going the the Senate floor for an up-or-down vote?
Click here to go to the petition.
You can also find Congressman Grayson’s petition to Reid here.
Raise the cost = lower the amount of savings ?
yup same here
I think that both Obama’s and Reid’s actions show clearly that they don’t think that activism is enough, and they may be right in that assessment. Obama also got a lot of support from these same financial industries that he now has to clean up after. His actions re: the veal pen and the public option clearly indicate that he’s not willing to give that money up. And as lovely as grassroots support for Howard Dean was, it didn’t get him very far. Those vast sums of money that the financial and medical lobbies can throw in one direction or another count for a lot. Your point can be reduced to “but they’re not everything” – a point with which I agree. But if you’re a politician who feels he needs that big money to be re-elected, that’s not a thought from which you can draw much comfort.
You probably know all this, but sometimes it’s good to state the obvious. People often forget the obvious.
Sorry Margaret! Finally got the link to work, and it was the wrong link.
Correct link to the petition to Reid here!
Great point! It is exactly like the Missouri Compromise, a totally immoral sellout to reactionaries.
Citizen gamd521:
Thank you for the post, your discussion of aggregating costs is illuminating and your point about who is the foil here is a good one. Ultimately, if we are gunna distrust Obama and believe that he is really ObamaRahma then we hafta believe that he is stupid enough to back a bill that won’t work, will enrich the insurance companies, will insure his party loses the 2010 bye elections and will make him a one term President. If you believe he is that stupid, then yes I can see how you would see him as the foil. But maybe he’s usin’ Rahm as the foil and doesn’t hafta take any direct heat during the debate and the kabuki in public. Ultimately, he owns the final product and he knows it and he knows that a bad bill kills his presidency and his party.
It is also disingenuous for people to claim that an opt-out system would deny people a basic civil right, similar to an opt-out for civil rights laws of the 1960s.
Nothing on the table short of HR676 would provide access to health care as a civil right, rather they all would prescribe the mandated purchase of insurance. The debate is on where you’re going to be forced or subsidized to buy your coverage from.
It is critical that any such proposal be opt-out rather than opt-in.
They must be doing some maintainence. Delete your cookies and try logging in again. That might be the trick
Citizen marcos:
Yes indeed citizen, you are right on…let’s get back to discussin’ what’s in the bill, how a good bill can get placed on the floor and amended in public and how the procedures can be set to force a vote. There is nothing down in writing that even resembles a workable program or a bill that will work…to be yankin’ our hair out and screamin in the night over an opt-out keeps us from the real work of gettin a national healthcare bill with all that implies.
BLOG GODS:
SOMETHINGS WRONG WITH THE EDIT FUNCTION….I’M LOSING ALL MY LINE RETURNS …I EDIT AND EVERYTHING GOES ONTO ONE LINE
Thanks Knox…I signed that petition days ago.
This is how Rahma & Obahma handled the banking crisis, excerpted from Simon Johnson’s, The Quiet Coup:
Why should we expect that many of the same players will run their insurance bail-out any differently – or in the public’s interest?
I understand what you’re saying.
I think Dean’s 2004 failure can be partly attributed not to where he got the money, but to where it went. Anyone wanna break some news by getting Joe Trippi to reveal truthfully what happened to all the $ we donated to Dean?
And money didn’t start pouring in to Barack Obama’s coffers until his grassroots supporters raised tons of cash and put him on the radar. Had it not been for the waves of energy – all that chanting “Yes, we can!” and “Fired up!” and “Change we can believe in!” – had it not been for the wave after wave of popular support that rose under Obama from Jan to May 2008, there’s no amount of money in the world that would have landed him the nomination or the victory in the general election.
We the people got Obama elected. And it would be way too sad if, once in office, he decided that we the people can’t keep him in office and has turned his back on us in favor of vast sums of money from the financial and medical lobbies.
OPT-OUT would be a total legislative black hole. Imagine if OPT-OUT passed in the final bill. The states that opt-out would have to agree to a whole new set of rules (yet unwritten) to guarantee affordable coverage for their citizens.
who writes the rules?
who pays for the opt-out states?
who montitors for compliance?
who audits?
who enforces?
what info are they going to get from private insurers for audits?
who’s accountable?
how can a state OPT-IN?
who decides whether or not a state can OPT-IN?
This is JUST THE BEGINING problems. Multiply these problems by the number of states that opt-out (because you know that each state has it’s own set of laws) and before you know it, you’ve just been fist fucked by Andre the Giant.
I’m sorry please be less cryptic. I have no idea what this equation means,if anything.
Not surprised to hear that you signed it days ago!
Maybe someone else who hasn’t saw the links and signed. They now have over 72,000 signatures and are still hoping for more!
Petition calling on Reid to strip all leadership titles from any Democrat in the Senate who sides with the Republicans to block a real health care reform bill from going the the Senate floor for an up-or-down vote.
Some estimates have the nationwide PO saving $50b. When you say “raise the cost” by a $6-25b, are you saying that the savings would be reduced from that $50b (or whatever) by $6-25b, rendering the real savings at $44-25b?
Norse, it is critical to analyze potential fall back positions if the horse trading gets us to a worse place. Demonizing the opt-out proposal might be problematic if that is the compromise that enables a stronger PO for what will instantly become the world’s largest risk pool.
Wasn’t there a promising young Senator from Illinois who said there were “no red states, no blue states, just the United States” of America? Surely now that Senator is President, he isn’t going to preside over implementing a health care “reform” so deeply immoral as to be based on the exclusion of people based on which kind of state they live in?
Allowing our American brothers and sisters — and their children! — to continue to be at the mercies of the rapacious insurance companies because they live in states more easily bought off by the insurance cartel is immoral.
Democrats must do the right thing.
What happens when you move from a Blue State to a Red State that’s opted out, and your Public Option discloses all your child’s pre-existing conditions to the monopoly insurer in your new state? How will you get insurance for your family then?
Wouldn’t the exchange minus the public option solve that? The price of insurance in those states will rise so high that even with a subsidy it will become unaffordable and they will eventually opt back in. Sometimes it is easier to allow people to discover for themselves, at their own risk, the predictable consequences of their actions than to force them. These people preach personal accountability, let’s hold them to that.
Yep! Can a state be OPTed-IN then later OPT-OUT? Another bunch of problems. And the list goes on.
As an earlier post pointed out, opt-outs could easily total 23% of the US population, largely in the South, costing billions of dollars in lost savings to the US taxpayer – based on fewer savings be possible from the resulting smaller public plan.
Who is going to pick up that tab? The uninsured in places like Texas and Florida and South Carolina, surely, but not by their legislatures (are they as fully insured as Congresscritters?). Most of that cost will be thrown on the backs of the American taxpayer and the newly insured in the opt-in states through higher premiums.
This is the Democrats building a boat designed to sink not when it comes off the slipway; this one will float until the full crew comes on board.
Opt-out has to have a cost, too. It can’t be a freebie if that redirects opportunity costs onto opt-in states. The Democrats should also be attempting to integrate the South, so to speak, not allow the GOP to further to pull off a de facto secession.
Allowing opt-out without consequence would be playing to the strength of the GOP’s “divide, enfear and conquer” approach to governing. It would also mean that a big chunk of that 23% of the American population would remain under- or uninsured. How does that make America stronger, more resilient and competitive economy? How does that make it a fairer or more just society? How does it better manage public health in the face of national or global epidemics?
Suddenly afraid of legislation with too many moving parts?
Very well said!
But wasn’t it that same young Senator from Illinois who blew off Dean’s 50-state strategy during the primaries? I’d like to think President Obama believes that there are “no red states, no blue states, just the United States” of America… then again, I like to think that he knows that the we the people got him elected, and not all the money from corporate interests…
Have you ever lived in the south?
Click that little linky thing. That’s why I took the trouble to put it in there.
Applauding the opt-out is more problematic, because it then becomes the “acceptable liberal outpost” from which a “center” then becomes measured by an administration that likes to split the baby.
At least until Democrats negotiate down another “acceptable liberal outpost.” Which most people who have watched politics play out over the past few years would be familiar with.
The “predictable consequences” you speak of so dispassionately are the illness and death of thousands of our fellow Americans, for an experiment that is politically unnecessary and immoral.
Has it really come to this?
I thought that was too. But then I read Who would really be hurt by Opt-Out? and it reveals that even in Red states the people who would need to OPT-IN the most are the poor people who are mostly Democratic districts and wouldn’t have the power to flip a state from RED to BLUE or even succesfully elect officials who run on an OPT-IN platform.
At not least, it’s immoral to throw our fellow citizens in need (either party) under the bus. I was temped by the “Get PO infrastructure into place and they will come” arguement but it would take GENERATIONS. We’d sooner have sucess at electing a gay president.
“These people preach personal accountability. Let’s hold them to that.”
Who? You want to fuck over everyone in a red state because they happen to be outnumbered by Republicans? On health care? That’s immoral. And barbaric.
Providing health care is a a matter of right and wrong. Not an opportunity for political schaudenfreude.
It would be double the moving parts TIMES the number of states that opt out.
COMPLETELY UNMANIGABLELEBLE… Can’t be done successfully.
Whose votes are gained for the public option by adding an opt-out? Why haven’t they stepped forward to say, “Now I won’t filibuster!”
Until that happens, this hypothetical needs to stay in the drawer.
Jane, the negotiations have been producing incrementally better and better iterations at a “public option” as the weeks have dragged on. Opt-out is much more intriguing to me than what’s come before and should be thought through before being dismissed. The decentralization aspect appeals to my political theory and has a model in Canada. I’m intellectually lazy and prefer to re-use wheels others have invented than to make new ones. None of what is on the table is anyone’s first choice, and the debate is all about relatively minor trade offs because the frame of the debate has been so constrained. Any liberal Senator could expand the frame of the debate by threatening to vote with a filibuster unless HR-676 is scored by the CBO and put up for a vote, for instance. But until then, we’re placing way too much value on very small differences in approach.
What IS the OPT-OUT plan? The devil is in the details and I’m afraid there would have to be so many details it would at least double the size of the bill TIMES the number of states that would opt-out since each state has it’s own laws.
You can lead a horse to water, but only the horse can decide to drink. We’ll leave the keys to the public option in the kitchen table, use them whenever you need, bye.
Perspective, please.
Allowing democratically elected state governments to affirmatively deny a public option to red state Americans is not as immoral as sending predator drones in to bomb Afghan civilians. I left Texas 20 years ago for a reason. They are incorrigible.
I’ve done my thinking through and I started off saying “OPT-OUT sounds good! Let those conservabastards fuck themselves!” but that’s NOT the case. READ THIS LINK
Hi:
I give very litlle consideration to people’s, declarations, motivations or intelligence and form judgements about them based on what they do. I think it more prudent to operate that way.
As an example, Obama maintains that he wholheartedly believes in the free market system and that he doesn’t begrudge people amassing great wealth. I really could care less what he believes in. The fact is that in order to amass great wealth the people he refers to are the people to whom he directed trillions of public money in the way of bank bailouts and gurantees. These are the people who benefited from that. As a result the public treaury is now bankrupt and the dollar is worthless, a little hyperbole.
Now I don’t know what his motivation is or whether he is intelligent and in spite of that he was willing to act contrary to the public’s interest. And I don’t care. I am concerned only with the effects of what he does.
Likewise, independently of whatever his calculations for the future may be, I am concerned only with the task at hand, which is to assure the passage of a PO plan, because I think it will ultimately expand to a single payer system and ultimately supplant the private insures. I will stae my simple argument in the suceeding post.
That is why it does no one any good to try to decipher what Obama does aside from whatever advice or motivations or intelligence may be.
How many red states would you imagine would seriously take the affirmative steps to opt out?
Of those states which did so, how long do you think they would opt out given the impact that the public option in the not opt out states would have on the private insurance market nationwide?
I’d like to see how quickly the discipline of the free market instigates opt-in socialism in the red states. This approach might be the fastest way to get the most, best care to the most people.
Texas just did opt out.
Perry is a dictator/moron.
Straw man
Advocating for health care reform that leaves out Texas just because you had a bad experience there is both petty and immoral.
Hi Marcos:
Please read my post more carefully.I am questioning Jane about her claim that opting out 23% of people who would be eligible for the PO would result in higher government expenditures of $6-25 billion. I don’t believe that it would and I give my reason for that in the post.
Jane, you’ve probably never had to deal with someone experiencing a psychotic episode on methamphetamine, have you? The kind of psychotic delusions are present in a the US, enough in the Democrat Party as to impede progress. I don’t think that a direct intervention is possible in this case because they’re too far gone living in their fantasy world of “free market” economic sharia and the like. What you’ve got to do in cases like these, if the muscle does not materialize for a robust nationwide PO, is to give them incentives to change their destructive conduct without confronting them directly. You can’t talk someone off of speed, you’ve got to be ready to give them the help they need when they ask for it, not force it on them.
Hey gamd521, I was still wondering how that figure you cited that Jane wrote compared relative to existing cost estimates.
I may have missed something in this thread, but who introduced this odd comparison between denying a public options to Americans in red states and sending predator drones in to bomb Afghan civilians?
the predators are sent in to kill Taliban and al Qeda not Afghan citizen. Unfortunately citizens are killed. But that is in no way similar to state governments denying a public option to their citizens to save corporate profits, which, unfortunately also kills citizens.
As to the question that keeps recurring here- whether one should advocate for a PO now vs. a single payer scheme now- if I am correct then this is a sterile choice. One aspect of the debate pertaining to the PO , the single payer scheme and the private insurance scheme can I think be established. This is that if the PO is to function at all it will ultimately lead directly to a single payer scheme, and ultimately necessarily supplant the private insurers. There is but one condition that the PO needs to satisfy, which is that it offer lower premiums than the private insurers.
The polemic between those that argue for a PO plan now or a single payer scheme now becomes moot. The real polemic is between the private insurers and those aspiring to make the PO viable, because the two can not coexist.
The argument is simple. For the PO to succeed it must offer premiums that are continually lower than private firms, As long as this holds there is no need for private insurance firm to exist and once this ceases to hold there is no need for the PO to exist. Stated differently, the PO exists if and only if the private insurers do not exist. .
So the people who come here every time we make an ask to call their Senators complaining “I have Cornyn and Hutchison!” — good liberal Texans, every one, bereft of Senate representation — those people are to be denied Public Option because, again, they “choose” to live in Texas??
I won’t set foot in the state, but I certainly won’t leave my fellow Americans behind to suffer (again) the depradations of their legislators and officeholders. I don’t know how any Democrat can.
I have no idea how she arrived at the $6-25 billion figure.
One can certainly determine the change in costs for given shifts in populations covered, but no one seems to have any baseline numbers to work with.
I think in part that this may account for why the arguments as to which plan is better or what is the minimally acceptable PO seems to be indeterminate.
As Jane mentioned earlier, she has a link in this post to an earlier post. In that earlier post are links to the CBO scoring where those figures came from.
Of course, you are probably much to busy to check links provided to find the information yourself and check Jane’s figures since you must dispute them.
Your assertion that private insurers and a public health insurance option can’t coexist seems very wrong.
The questions that keep recurring here are:
1) If not a single-payer, than what kind of public option would be best? Most here seem to agree that a scheme allowing states to opt-out is bad on moral grounds.
2) If the public option is the best solution to getting costs under control and to making private insurance companies treat their customers more fairly, then what are the politicians in DC doing? The Democrats put forward a bill that is more Republican than anything else, full of gifts to the private insurance companies, and the Republicans attack it as if they are playing their part in a choreographed dance.
Even I am starting to think that there are only far-right Republicans, who call themselves Republicans, and moderate Republicans, who call themselves Democrats.
and so, 3) What happened to the Democratic Party?
I don’t usually do this, but may I edit?
Oh dear, it sounds to me like you have a lot of issues
about bloggin’.That’s an insane assumption.
Get real. Treat adults like adults.
Jane wrote:
There’s a lot going on that’s immoral and barbaric around here.
My experience in Texas taught me that some people are hard headed enough to go against their own interests every time, and the appropriate response to that, in my mind, is not to confront them, rather to let them bang their head against the wall until it feels good to stop.
If the Democrat Party is having trouble lining up their own ducks, then I’d imagine that conservatives opposed to the PO would be successful at scuttling it, and then we’ll have an individual mandate for private insurance.
What does anything you just wrote have to do with the nonsense that was your response to what Jane wrote, i.e. your non sequitur comparison between denying a public options to Americans in red states and sending predator drones in to bomb Afghan civilians, which in itself contains a separate logical fallacy, unless you’re seriously saying that the purpose of sending in predator drones is to bomb civilians?
You know what, I asked you a question. Let’s just say it’s a rhetorical question and that I don’t want an answer.
You’d probably just twist something I’m saying into something I’m not…
It has to do with consistency. Getting into conniption fits about the immorality and barbarity of another incremental layer added to an incremental policy proposal when all of us are bombing civilians seems a bit disproportionate, don’t you think?
We’ll see how this plays out. I’d hope that we’d get a nationwide robust public option that does more good than harm. But I don’t think that’s going to happen no matter how much we organize. It might, but probably not. So if the trade off is between doing harm or nothing, and a partial solution that lets those who want to participate, the choice for is clear. I don’t find that any more barbaric and immoral than an individual mandate with no public option which is the most likely outcome from this juncture.
Book Salon up at the Mothership with Paul Davidson’s The Keynes Solution: The Path To Global Economic Prosperity hosted by Stirling Newberry
So old people and children in Texas should just “bang their heads against the wall until it feels good to stop.”
Because you’ve lived there, and you know they’re ignorant and they’ll “vote against their interests every time.” So they need to accept “personal responsibility” and just suck it up so they don’t screw things up for the rest of us.
That kind of political calculation is more appropriate somewhere that doesn’t have a body count as the cost. Because these are human lives at stake here. And you can’t seem to decide whether states won’t opt out, or you don’t care whether they do, or that this kind of “tough love” that the most vulnerable will have to pay for in suffering is a good way to make Republicans in the state shape up.
I’d dismiss it as gibberish, but the moral core here is so decayed that it would be giving more credit than it’s due.
Jane, all of the proposals on the table leave millions of people without affordable access to health care, don’t they? The quibble is about the number of millions.
Wrong. You don’t kill children because you’re pissed at Texas.
Who are you anyway? Few people would come on to a liberal blog spewing this kind of “final solution” bullshit with such vehemence unless someone was paying them.
Look, I’m not killing anyone. The people these people elect are speaking for them. That is what democracy looks like, respecting the right of others to disagree with you and democratically chart their own course within bounds. We need to make the tools of an activist government available to states and localities but it is a very different political question to compel their use.
Nobody is talking about creating a civil right to health care.
The only way “opting out” would be fair is if there is a mandate with a public option open to all nationwide with the single exception that anyone could choose to opt out of the public option by purchasing a health insurance policy from an insurance company. In national poll after national poll since June, 75% to 78% of the voters want this choice and they should have it.
To allow a majority of voters in any state to eliminate that choice — by voting in favor of their state opting out from the public option — has to be the most regressive, unconscionable, and discriminatory legislative proposal since Congress passed the Civil Rights Act in 1964. If states are allowed to opt out, Congress will have abdicated its responsibility to provide a uniform national plan for health care reform and the battle for access to the public option will shift to the states permitting Republican majorities to eliminate the public option and force every uninsured citizen to purchase insurance from a predatory, monopolistic, and unregulated insurance company with no limitation on what it charges for a policy or control over what the policy covers. Although coverage for preexisting conditions cannot be denied and policies cannot be terminated because health care becomes too expensive, nothing prohibits an insurance company from raising insurance rates to stratospheric levels to cover those contingencies and maintain the company’s profitability. If this happens and the policy no longer is affordable, the insured person will lose coverage for non-payment and suffer insult to that injury by being penalized for not complying with the mandate. The inevitable result will be an increase in the number of uninsured, almost all of whom will be sick, burdened with medical expenses they cannot pay, and hounded by the IRS for non-payment of mounting penalties and interest. This is a prescription for bankruptcies, homelessness, and suicide just because a majority of the voters in their state are Republicans who voted for their state to opt out of the public option.
I live in Kentucky, as red a state as there is, and I do not want my health care compromised because President Obama, Rahm Emmanuel, and the Blue Dog Democrats want to cover their backdoor deals with Big PhRMA, the insurance companies, and their lobbyists with this horrific proposal claimed to be justified for the sake of bipartisanship, which will never happen. This is yet another deceitful lie to conceal that they have been bought and paid for and every other Democrat in the Senate should refuse to provide cover, reject opt out, and force these cretins to filibuster their own bill before a national audience.
I ask each of you who do not live in red states to ask yourselves to consider our predicament. If our situations were reversed, I would follow the Golden Rule and not hesitate to condemn this proposal. I ask y’all to do the same for me and every other citizen who lives in a red state.
Actually, we are talking about health care as a right. And what you are advocating for very much will kill people. A lot of people. And one is too many.
But I think I’m going to start asking people to identify what part of the country they are from when they take a position that the red states can go to hell.
Where do you live? Will you be affected by an opt-out provision? Are you advocating for the narrow self-interest of blue state liberals and willingly sacrificing those of millions who live in the south because you won’t have to pay the price yourself?
I hope you put it up as a diary on the Seminal. I want that on the front page of FDL.
Of course, I know a single payer system is the only sensible solution and HR 676 is the easiest way to get there and get the system up and running next year without reinventing the wheel.
My previous post @108 assumes HR 676 isn’t a viable option at this time — just wanted to clarify that.
About The Seminal
Post A Diary
I agree this “Opt out shit is just that shit… it will be paid for on the bodies of the poor again…
HR676 is what should become Law! Not any of these other welfare crap for the insurance companies… they have enough money as it is..
Worse than DOMA? Repeal of Glass-Steagal? NAFTA? NCLB?
An opt-out PO would last only a few years, until the PO pool grew big enough to compete in the more populous states, forcing insurers to lower their rates in opt-in states to compete, which would mean an increase to their rates in the opt-out states to unsustainable levels in order to raise profits. The opt-out states will then opt back in once health insurance is exorbitant to everyone.
Consider it done.
Many thanks and many blessings for your tireless and heroic efforts.
How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?
How many tens of millions will the existing proposals leave w/o access to affordable health care? Is that immoral or brutal?
If there’s a path to a nationwide robust public option, then let’s blaze that. But if the effort falters, what’s an acceptable fallback? If you’re already willing to support an incremental PO proposal that leaves tens of millions out, then why would you oppose a potential compromise that would bring tens of millions of people into a public option for the first time if other efforts fail while leaving tens of millions out, a few more with opt-out, just like existing PO proposals?
I want as many people as possible to have access to health care, but if it comes down to it, I’d prefer to get it to people who wanted it first, and get to those whose throats it has to be jammed down later.
For further discussion of how far some progressives are willing to bend over in support of the proposal for states to opt out of the public option see the Huffington Post: “AMERICA-STAN: The Progressive Movement Neuters Itself by Supporting ‘States Rights” to Opt out of the Public Option”
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/miles-mogulescu/america-stan-the-progress_b_316030.html
The article also discusses how the Public Option has been turned into the “Public Option in Name Only.
That assumes that buying and selling health insurance is like buying and selling a lottery tickets, where each ticket has an equal chance of providing a return on the investment. When buying or selling health insurance, both the buyer and seller use their knowledge and experience to try to reduce how much they will have to pay and increase the amount they can get in return.
Healthy people will not have as much to worry about so they will be less likely to avoid moving to states that have eliminated the public option. People with expensive conditions would be less likely to move to a state that had eliminated the public option, and more likely to move to a state that had not.
Over time this self selection would eventually make insurance more expensive in states with the public option. The people who demanded the right to opt out would then triumphantly claim that the “socialist public option” had failed.
I need a topic. Also when I test it, letters get crushed together.
The topic is up to you, if you feel you have something to say.
But if by “letters get crushed together” you mean that you lose formatting on the body of your post when you save and it becomes one large paragraph, I’ve found that adding “tags” before I save allows me to save all the formatting.
Do you mean a “br /” tag, for a next paragraph, or do you think paragraph “p” then “/p”. Or just keep repeating “return” at appropriate paragraph breaks, before testing.
Hi:
Excuse me for living!
The ruth is that I am studying for my Critical Care boards and I am kind of busy. I know that does put me at a disadvantage but the gist of my question to Jane was more in the spirit of wanting to see the actual derivation of those figures she cited, exactly because I was too busy to dig them out myself.
I will check them out, because whether costs go up by excluding participants in the PO plan does have some bearing on it’s desirablity purely from the financial aspect of thing.
It woulsd seem unlikely that as participants from a plan are reduced and the concomittant cost of treating them are reduced, that the cost of to each participant (ie, the premium) would go up. I will need to check that.
You could just argue from symmetry I suppose, because as the number of participantants in the plan increases the premiums decrease, eventhough the aggregate cost of health care would likewise increase.
There would need to be a minimal threshold number of participants above which premiums would fall as both participants and aggregate health costs for those participants increase. But you also have to factor in how the subsidies change as result of having lost that 23% of participants.
It is these confounding factors that made me think that the numbers cited by Jane were very difficult to detrmine even within the range given. I was not impugning her at all. The whole issue as I say is a little beside her main point anyway, but it does have merit.
To finish the thought, a valid reason against opting out anyone from participating in the PO plan is that you lose the effect of premiums decreasing as participants in the plan increase.
All this points to the need for concrete numbers in making many of these assessments.
No idea. Sounds like some changes since the last time I did a diary.
I’ve just used standard “Enter/Return” key when writing so have assumed my diaries had the appropriate paragraph breaks. And so far, I’ve had no problems with that.
And as always, some browsers decide to do things differently.
“Democrat party” in marcos’ comment #100 is key.
Remember, the Great White North on SCTV. It was always difficult to find a topic.
The point is simple.
If the PO is to persist, it will do so by offering lower premiums than private insurers. It is designed for that very purpose. The first group to take advantage of these lower premiums are the currently uninsured, some with greater or lesser amounts of government subsidies. This is not controversial.
Now thereafter, unless there are proscriptions to prevent it, people that are currently insured once they are faced with a choice of paying greater or lesser premiums will choose the latter, the PO.
Where is the fallicy?
Yes, let’s do blaze that. Because those who are talking about “fallbacks” are just sabotaging that if they haven’t proven that it’s that or nothing, and you haven’t.
Your argument seems to be:
1) Let’s have the opt-out because nobody will take it
2) Let’s have the opt-out because in those states that take it they will punish Republican legislators for doing so
3) let’s have the opt-out because it’s the only way people in Texas will ever learn
4) Let’s opt out because it’s either that or people like you in Blue States will suffer
5) Let’s opt out because there is no other option
You have made all of these arguments in this thread, and the careful observer will note that they are built on conflicting premises.
So before you go dragging another straw man into the conversation, why don’t you lay down the argument you’re prepared to stick with.
Just one last point regarding the variance in value cited of $6-25 B, is just too large to have any statistical confidence. Usually you cite values within a certain confidence interval(CI), in order to give a likelihood that the value is statistically significant.
So there reason to believe that the value is not rigorously arrived at, but we’ll see.
Jane, the reason why I am looking to fall backs is that I don’t see a viable path towards a public option worth a squat as the power players are currently aligned. It is okay to do two things at one time, especially when it comes to a “plan b” when the Democrats are in charge. It is political malpractice to not plan for likely eventualities, IMHO.
Why do you equate considering a policy as part of a reality-based strategy with promoting that policy as one’s first choice?
And why do you ascribe dirty hands to this particular policy when we’ve all got blood on our hands? Is this blood really worse than anything else we’ve been working with? Let’s not even start on the selfishness of Americans spending time fighting each other about how to better take care of ourselves while we’re visiting war crimes on civilians in southern Asia to feed our glut.
Either that, or this policy appeals to me because it works on many levels.
Sometimes, Zen politics, where you use the energy of your opponent against them, works better than direct, confrontative approaches. I’ve not come to the table with a prefab view on this, I’ve been thinking it through over the past day or so. I like policies that kill many birds with one stone.
Also, I live in CD-8, Pelosi’s district, a one party Democrat town where the local party is divided between progressives and moderates. I work with the progressives on all sorts of election and policy campaigns. Pelosi might as well be representing Fresno as far as we are concerned. But the dominant moderate DLC wing is as bad as the Republicans. So long as that party defers to Republicans, I’m going to use the term “Democrat” as a noun. I get very good health insurance from my domestic partner’s job and live in a lower income neighborhood around folks who rely on Ammiano’s Healthy San Francisco.
Jane,
After getting sucked into twisted arguments with this person yesterday, I reached a similar conclusion to the one that you did @ 106.
Let me submit another one of his apparently intentional fallacies:
Citizens mailing letters to their representatives and to Harry Reid is a waste of time and money (as he put it, the cost of the stamp plus $3 will get me a cup of coffee at Starbucks), but I, marcos, can think of no better use of my time and energy than to create confusion and spout nonsense as I endlessly debate person after person on this website, consistently twisting what they’re saying so as to divide everyone here.
While this bit won’t give you the full sense of what several of us have gone through with him, take a look at comments 6, 11 & 12 to this diary post.
I think Jane Hamsher can speak for herself without the piling-on.
You beef is with marcos. Probably a good policy to address it thusly.
We should respond to our opponents grabbing the political system by the throat and choking it by writing letters? This is a power struggle, all these electeds understand are real threats to cut their political gonads off. If you can’t apply that level of pressure successfully, then you’ll be lucky to see an opt-out PO. Do you see a letter writing campaign as really capable getting something better?
You are so right on target. All the give away compromises to the health insurers and pharma are OK with Obama. If we don’t get an accessible and meaningful PO, it will be Obama did not want it and the betrayal is part of his plan.
@Jane if Rham is so much the puppet master behind the scenes why not go after him instead of his soldiers?
Run a add in Alabama asking “why does Rham hates Alabamans such that he would side with Republicans to deny them low cost health care? Say No to Opt Out… Say No to Rham Emmanuel”.
Now that add I would donate to, you tie Rham to the rebublicans and making him an issue and we know how fast Obama drops aides that becomes too controversial. But I suspect you guys don’t have the balls to go after the king, just complain… to bad.
I know for a fact that Jane can speak for herself. I wasn’t trying to pile on as much as let her know what others have experienced.
Yesterday, I thought I was the only one who was being targeted for harassment by this individual. Now I know that he is targeting everyone and anyone who will get sucked into the nonsense.
As Teddy Partridge pointed out to Jane @ 125:
Are you trying to say that non-Democrat who are also non-Republican independents are not welcome here?
Need I genuflect to the hagiography of a corporate dominated party?
In fact you wouldn’t even have to make a big buy since national news would pick up on the ad for free, even all it was was an internet adv. Showing Rham that he is not immune is a good warning shot that would bring all the other weak kneed democrats inline. Question is would you be willing to anger King Rham and face his wrath?
Do you even know what a hagiography is, because you didn’t use the word correctly in your sentence there?
It’s not my place to make you feel welcome here, but I would imagine that
1) by arguing with everyone in sight,
2) by taking pleasure in confusing what others are saying (something you do consistently),
and, 3) by going out of your way to tell people who are trying to encourage others to send letters to the leaders of our government that they’re wasting their time and stamps (I don’t recall ever asking you for your opinion about it, btw)
you were sure to find yourself on the receiving end of others’ ire eventually.
Have you even though about presenting more constructive ideas, or are you just here to distract those of us who are trying to be heard?
Wasn’t there a quote from Rahm where he said something to the effect of “a man is at his best when he’s on his knees kissing the boots of someone who just beat him in a political contest? He likes being topped, apparently.
If commenters want to argue public policy at each other, fine.
If commenters just want to argue about arguing, TAKE IT OUTSIDE.
Are you incapable of arguing without resorting to ad hominem if your comfort zone is challenged?
I really think that if RHAM is the one who is standing in the way of the PO then he should be a target of opportunity. The President is too nice a guy that believes in being fair more than being just. To explain, FAIR in that he doesn’t go for the 100% win, he likes to leave opponents feeling like they haven’t been bloodied, but unfortunately doing so by giving up the PO is unjust. However since he is insulated from the feeling of outrage that PO supporters have the only way is to make the calculus of appeasement my costly so that being just is more beneficial than being FAIR.
Instead of bitching about RHAM, discipline RHAM. RHAM does not control FDL access to funding or access like he does the “Veal Pen” and until someone on the left effective shows the “veal pen” how not to be afraid the all this bitching about RHAM and the veal pen is just “pissing in the wind”.
Full disclosure I am Canadian and I have great universal health care that I am among the 92% of Canadians who love it. But I am my relatives living in the US to also enjoy the peace of mind which we Canadians take for granted.
That is a good summary of the arguments made so far. I’ve heard all those conflicting arguments before. As far as I know, I have not heard them all from the same person until now. I don’t see how somebody could really believe all those arguments with conflicting premises. It is hard to convince somebody that their “concerns” are are not justified if they don’t really believe what they are saying either. If they start to lose the argument they can just slip right into the next “concern”.
I would take opt-out over no bill, but you’ve convinced me that the Senate should first try to get a bill through with no opt-out. If Lieberman or some conservaDem joins a Republican filibuster, then as a fallback, pass the public option with opt-out, and strip the traitor(s) of their chairmanships.
We’ve been discussing the opt-out idea, but I’m still not entirely clear on when it would be put it.
Would it be introduced into the Baucus bill? Would it be introduced during the process of merging the Finance bill and the HELP bill? Or would it be introduced in conference, when the House and Senate bills are brought together to form the final bill?
Seems like an important distinction, as the earlier it is introduced, the more likely it could be removed before the final bill is put together.
I think the key is to continue emphasizing opposition to it in order to not let it become seen as the compromise that nearly everyone in Congress can accept.
It isn’t acceptable!
After what the right wing, conservatives in both the Democrat and Republican parties, have done to this country over the past 30 years, after what the Democrat Party has done in framing the health debate as corporate welfare so far, how can anyone accuse me of being immoral or barbaric or killing people for exploring a possible compromise like opt-out?
The opt-out proposal has been criticized because it would leave people behind if states opted out. Right wing rule by those individuals in states which would opt out is what is leaving the rest of the country behind, that is immoral and barbaric conduct. How much longer can we expect for the dwindling conservative enclaves with power amplified by the Senate system to hold back the majority of the country from moving forward?
The Democrats have a winning electoral hand, the best that anyone has had for decades. What is immoral and barbaric is that the Democrats cannot get their shit together to do right by the American people, not that people like me are trying to figure out if their proposals don’t fuck it things up too much if it comes down to that because they always do. When I was 18, I voted for Jimmy Carter, so don’t give me shit about being a right winger.
This novel notion that nobody can make any gains until everyone can make every gain did not work with ENDA when it was tried first and last in 2007 when trans inclusion failed. This bill will not be the last time that health finance policy is visited by congress. Trailing legislation will eventually have to bring tens of millions on board who will not be covered by the most ambitious viable bills.
Until then, under an opt-out policy, the onus is on the democratically electeds in states to make those calls. But this brings forth another question, why is it that so many liberals are unwilling to accept democratic outcomes when they go the other way? Do they feel that when others reject their ideas, that that is the same as them rejecting them personally?
The reason I came by here is that there is a novel direct action component out front and in play, doing what needs to be done to put pressure on electeds to make them do our bidding. Apparently the discussion is not as sophisticated as the direct action. That pressure should not move towards an opt-out at this time, but that should not preclude a discussion of the merits of the policy.
Talking about stuff does not make stuff happen, not talking about stuff does not make stuff not happen.
Hi Marcos
I do agree with you that discussion of the merits of particular proposals are warranted. I guess where the distance arise with you and those with whom you are arguing is that they believe that (1) The Opt out is a immoral compromise especially if you believe that people are dieing from the lack of affordable health care (2) The public option no matter how strong is already a compromise and any agreement that the Opt out is acceptable will automatically make it the default position and in turn may even lead to further watering down of the Public Option. Which is not unheard of since by negotiating with itself and putting forward the Public Option instead of single payer the democrats have weakened their hand and all this investment of time, money and effort just to maintain a viable public option would not have been the case if the original default position was the single payer and then negotiate from there.
No you and those with whom you are arguing have fundamentally different views in that they believe in no pre-emptively negotiating with themselves while you do. This is not good or bad its just one leads to a stronger outcome and one leads to watered down results. Those who are not will to compromise are willing to fight for what they want and therefore rationally the ask to be shown those who would willing tank the PO option by siding with a fillibuster.
There is a saying “you cannot win at the negotiating table that which you are not will to win on the battlefield”, unfortunately Obama forgot this lesson, but those such as Jane seems to still understand it. My only question to Jane is will she take the fight to the King (Rham) or continue to fight only his minions the Blue Dogs? Rham does not know what it means to be poor and not be able to afford healthcare, he only understand winning and like so many politicians he define that which is winning, which in this case is signing a bill, any bill that say healthcare reform.
I agree with Jane and her Firedog squad, Fuck the Opt out, it is unacceptable! But that’s my take and you can take it with a grain of salt since I already have free universal health care.
As much as I hold Jane in high regard, I cannot agree with her analysis that the opt out provision is the equivalent of “excluding 23% of the population.”
It is not the Dems, with opt out, who are going to exclude anyone, let’s just remember that. If anyone does the excluding, it will be elected Republican leaders, and by extension, the red state citizens who elected them.
Under the proposal, the default position is that all states are in. Theoretically, states would have the right to opt out of the public option part of reform. Again, If any excluding is to happen, it’s not the Dems who are doing it, but ultimately, the voters of the red states. Let’s put the responsibility where it belongs. The beauty of the opt out, in my view, is that few, if any states, when the chips are down, will actually choose to opt out. And further, remember (something many seem to be forgetting!) that red state citizens are not passive victims in all this. They have the ability to launch groundswells of popular voter rage and force their elected officials to keep them opted in–if that’s what they really want.
I DO think that’s what they really want, because opinion polls tell us that Americans in ALL states support a public option. But the problem is that red state citizens (as a whole) are not ACTING like they want it. They are, overall, either politically disengaged OR in ideological opposition to HCR. The opt out will force the citizenry of those red states to decide what they really want and get off their butts if they want the PO.
If opt out will get us the votes for the PO, I think it’s the best thing going. While I strongly believe in the notion that we’re all in this together, being “in it together” doesn’t just mean that we all HAVE the PO in the end, but that we all FIGHT for it, too. And the red state citizens aren’t fighting for it, that’s for sure. And I’ll be damned if I’m going to lose the PO for EVERYONE just because red staters as a whole have allowed their elected Republican leadership to act so appallingly. The opt out provision puts the responsibility on the citizens of those states, where it belongs. It sets up some difficult but crucial battles to come.
Sorry but if the Dems vote for bill that allows “Opt-Out” it doesn’t mean a damn thing that the states opting-out are controlled by the Rs. The Dems will have given the Rs the mechanism, allowing the Rs to screw over their constituents, which makes them just as complicit.
Rather like the dance when Joe Lieberman used a vote for Cloture on Alito then voted against him. The Cloture vote was the important one.
A vote that allows an Opt-Out provision is the important one. If it is in the bill at the end, then it is the Dems fault when the Rs use it because the Dems provided it.
You ignore the point I’m making about red state citizens. Seems to be a common theme among those who condemn the opt out possibility, this idea that what’s really going on is “Republicans screwing over their constituents.” As if those constituents are just passive victims. No. As a whole, red state citizens are ALLOWING themselves to be screwed, by continuing to elect these idiots, and allowing them to stonewall HCR. Are blue staters really willing to sacrifice the PO for everyone, because of the political disengagement of red state citizens? I’m not. What’s more, the opt out provision forces red state citizens into some important political battles, if they want that damn public option and it gives the Progressive Dems in those states a fantastic organizing tool,the likes of which they have NEVER had before, never!
And I’m sorry but I refuse to allow you or anyone else to try to blame the folks who do not vote or believe as you do and penalize them for their stupidity.
I’ve lived all over the country. I was born and raised in Kentucky and as an adult I have lived in New Hampshire (x2), Michigan, Hawaii, MA, NY (x3), CT (x2), AL, IL, CO, FL (x2), and TX. The people you are so blithely dismissing are not at all dissimilar to the people who are your next door neighbors.
And I have known extreme right wingers in blue states and rabid progressives in the reddest of states. Your willingness, almost eagerness to abandon US citizens because of where they live or work does not speak well of you. In fact, your attitude is reminiscent of nothing but those who say “I’ve got mine, screw you.”
First Edit: And no, I am not saying to blame the Republicans if a state chooses to opt-out. I’m saying blame the Democrats for giving the Republican controlled states that option in the first place.
Second Edit: And the way you use the term “red-state citizens” means you’re missing the key word again. Citizens.
You have also missed another important part of why I think the opt out is actually valuable: Am I dismissing red state citizens? Absolutely not. I think the opt out provision puts an urgent burden on them to fight for what they want, and provides them with a phenomenal organizing tool to throw out the Republican idiots who work against their interests. And if I did have a “willingness to abandon US citizens,” it would not be based on where they lived or worked, but it could be based on whether they were willing to take up this fight, or whether they just stood on the sidelines. That’s not a perfect criteria either, but it’s a better one, and it treats those citizens like adults.