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	<title>Comments on: Senate Finance Delays Health Care Vote:  Did Baucus Screw Wyden And Lose His Vote?</title>
	<atom:link href="http://fdlaction.firedoglake.com/2009/10/06/senate-finance-delays-health-care-vote-did-baucus-screw-wyden-and-lose-his-vote/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://fdlaction.firedoglake.com/2009/10/06/senate-finance-delays-health-care-vote-did-baucus-screw-wyden-and-lose-his-vote/</link>
	<description>Politics for liberal newsgeeks</description>
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		<title>By: gamd521</title>
		<link>http://fdlaction.firedoglake.com/2009/10/06/senate-finance-delays-health-care-vote-did-baucus-screw-wyden-and-lose-his-vote/#comment-51264</link>
		<dc:creator>gamd521</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Oct 2009 21:18:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://campaignsilo.firedoglake.com/2009/10/06/senate-finance-delays-health-care-vote-did-baucus-screw-wyden-and-lose-his-vote/#comment-51264</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;I’m sorry I don’t follow. I am stating what is obvious:&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;1- The group of people that pay the premiums that create an insurance pool are the only constituency that needs to be satisfied because it is their money that is used to make payments. They create the plan.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;2- The managers who actually make these payments have that as their only function, they are derivative. The manager can be the government which charges nothing to make these payments or it can be a company that charges a profit for the same simple transaction.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;3. You can be subject to a comapny to disburse your money for you and to keep a portion of it, if you like but you would be a fool to do so. Especially when there is another entity that will do the exact same thing for free.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;4. It is an abject situation to have no say in the matter and to be forced to give our money away needlessly.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;5- The pool of people that can currently contribute to a public plan is the 46 million uninsured for lack of affordability of private premiums. This number is enough to create a viable pool of funds.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;We don’t need to provide incentives to anyone, either you perform the simple task of paying for a health service at a profit cheaper than an entity that does the same for free or you are not able to. This is especially the case when the payments are made with other people’s money.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;The thing is that it is completely insane to give money to some private entity and then be subject and hostage to what they would like to do with it. That system is patently absurd. And to not have the choice to opt in favor of a better plan is doubly insane.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I’m sorry I don’t follow. I am stating what is obvious:</p>
<p>1- The group of people that pay the premiums that create an insurance pool are the only constituency that needs to be satisfied because it is their money that is used to make payments. They create the plan.</p>
<p>2- The managers who actually make these payments have that as their only function, they are derivative. The manager can be the government which charges nothing to make these payments or it can be a company that charges a profit for the same simple transaction.</p>
<p>3. You can be subject to a comapny to disburse your money for you and to keep a portion of it, if you like but you would be a fool to do so. Especially when there is another entity that will do the exact same thing for free.</p>
<p>4. It is an abject situation to have no say in the matter and to be forced to give our money away needlessly.</p>
<p>5- The pool of people that can currently contribute to a public plan is the 46 million uninsured for lack of affordability of private premiums. This number is enough to create a viable pool of funds.</p>
<p>We don’t need to provide incentives to anyone, either you perform the simple task of paying for a health service at a profit cheaper than an entity that does the same for free or you are not able to. This is especially the case when the payments are made with other people’s money.</p>
<p>The thing is that it is completely insane to give money to some private entity and then be subject and hostage to what they would like to do with it. That system is patently absurd. And to not have the choice to opt in favor of a better plan is doubly insane.</p>
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		<title>By: Rayne</title>
		<link>http://fdlaction.firedoglake.com/2009/10/06/senate-finance-delays-health-care-vote-did-baucus-screw-wyden-and-lose-his-vote/#comment-51209</link>
		<dc:creator>Rayne</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Oct 2009 19:07:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://campaignsilo.firedoglake.com/2009/10/06/senate-finance-delays-health-care-vote-did-baucus-screw-wyden-and-lose-his-vote/#comment-51209</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Why is John Fund (blecchh) at WSJ reporting as of 12:31 pm today that this will go to a vote tomorrow, I wonder? (can’t find a link or I’d share it, read it earlier this afternoon from another PC)&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Considering the source, could it be disinfo?&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Why is John Fund (blecchh) at WSJ reporting as of 12:31 pm today that this will go to a vote tomorrow, I wonder? (can’t find a link or I’d share it, read it earlier this afternoon from another PC)</p>
<p>Considering the source, could it be disinfo?</p>
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		<title>By: readerOfTeaLeaves</title>
		<link>http://fdlaction.firedoglake.com/2009/10/06/senate-finance-delays-health-care-vote-did-baucus-screw-wyden-and-lose-his-vote/#comment-51206</link>
		<dc:creator>readerOfTeaLeaves</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Oct 2009 19:01:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://campaignsilo.firedoglake.com/2009/10/06/senate-finance-delays-health-care-vote-did-baucus-screw-wyden-and-lose-his-vote/#comment-51206</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;I certainly see your point.&lt;br /&gt;
More people still need to question why  health care is being provided on a for-profit basis.&lt;br /&gt;
Every week, I sense that more people understand the healthCo monopolies are anti-competitive, and that’s progress.  (Actually, in  that respect, the GOP was stupid to drag this conversation out, although I  think in a ghoulish fashion they were waiting for one or more Dems to pass away, and expecting they could drag out Senate replacement appointments.  Like all evil deeds, it’s coming back to bite them in the ass.  Poetic justice.)&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I certainly see your point.<br />
More people still need to question why  health care is being provided on a for-profit basis.<br />
Every week, I sense that more people understand the healthCo monopolies are anti-competitive, and that’s progress.  (Actually, in  that respect, the GOP was stupid to drag this conversation out, although I  think in a ghoulish fashion they were waiting for one or more Dems to pass away, and expecting they could drag out Senate replacement appointments.  Like all evil deeds, it’s coming back to bite them in the ass.  Poetic justice.)</p>
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		<title>By: JamesJoyce</title>
		<link>http://fdlaction.firedoglake.com/2009/10/06/senate-finance-delays-health-care-vote-did-baucus-screw-wyden-and-lose-his-vote/#comment-51203</link>
		<dc:creator>JamesJoyce</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Oct 2009 18:47:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://campaignsilo.firedoglake.com/2009/10/06/senate-finance-delays-health-care-vote-did-baucus-screw-wyden-and-lose-his-vote/#comment-51203</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;“The truth is that lawmakers, some by ideology but most by complicity in graft, attempt to muddy the waters of what is in issence a very simple insurance arrangement with only one overriding constituent, &lt;strong&gt;namely the contributers to the plan.&lt;/strong&gt; Those that continue to complicate the matter and want to stifle the right for the people that create insurance plans to decide who should manage their plan created by their money, should be votes out.”&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;So when health insurance corporations &lt;strong&gt;operate tax exempt&lt;/strong&gt;, a subsidy by the taxpayer, and this health insurance corporation then discriminates and uses contractual shenanigans to deny coverage, to an insured at the state level, lawmakers concerned about the obliteration of the insured right’s, under the color of law should be voted out to protect the interest of the plan managers and the insured?  &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;1) The biggest pool is 310,000,000 Americans&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;2) Just for shitz and giggles…. BCBS MA  2007  IRS 990 Gross 2.4 billion Tax exempt after expenses $800,000,000 in assets, tax free?&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;3) Why not use IRS tax code to control “corporate behavior” in Health care?&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Equal Protection of Law for Americans?&lt;br /&gt;
Due Process for Americans?&lt;br /&gt;
14th Amendment for American?    Protect Corporations……….&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Tax US Max to hand money over to tax exempt and for profit corporations bankrupting America under the color of law?  Who needs a King on the other side of the pond?  We have “asselephant hybrids” beholding to corporate, right here in America, gutting Americans!&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>“The truth is that lawmakers, some by ideology but most by complicity in graft, attempt to muddy the waters of what is in issence a very simple insurance arrangement with only one overriding constituent, <strong>namely the contributers to the plan.</strong> Those that continue to complicate the matter and want to stifle the right for the people that create insurance plans to decide who should manage their plan created by their money, should be votes out.”</p>
<p>So when health insurance corporations <strong>operate tax exempt</strong>, a subsidy by the taxpayer, and this health insurance corporation then discriminates and uses contractual shenanigans to deny coverage, to an insured at the state level, lawmakers concerned about the obliteration of the insured right’s, under the color of law should be voted out to protect the interest of the plan managers and the insured?  </p>
<p>1) The biggest pool is 310,000,000 Americans</p>
<p>2) Just for shitz and giggles…. BCBS MA  2007  IRS 990 Gross 2.4 billion Tax exempt after expenses $800,000,000 in assets, tax free?</p>
<p>3) Why not use IRS tax code to control “corporate behavior” in Health care?</p>
<p>Equal Protection of Law for Americans?<br />
Due Process for Americans?<br />
14th Amendment for American?    Protect Corporations……….</p>
<p>Tax US Max to hand money over to tax exempt and for profit corporations bankrupting America under the color of law?  Who needs a King on the other side of the pond?  We have “asselephant hybrids” beholding to corporate, right here in America, gutting Americans!</p>
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		<title>By: yellowsnapdragon</title>
		<link>http://fdlaction.firedoglake.com/2009/10/06/senate-finance-delays-health-care-vote-did-baucus-screw-wyden-and-lose-his-vote/#comment-51200</link>
		<dc:creator>yellowsnapdragon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Oct 2009 18:24:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://campaignsilo.firedoglake.com/2009/10/06/senate-finance-delays-health-care-vote-did-baucus-screw-wyden-and-lose-his-vote/#comment-51200</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Thanks cbl2.  My head hurts just reading Kargo X when he gets into the details of procedure.  Trying…to…wrap…head…around…procedure…..&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks cbl2.  My head hurts just reading Kargo X when he gets into the details of procedure.  Trying…to…wrap…head…around…procedure…..</p>
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		<title>By: JamesJoyce</title>
		<link>http://fdlaction.firedoglake.com/2009/10/06/senate-finance-delays-health-care-vote-did-baucus-screw-wyden-and-lose-his-vote/#comment-51196</link>
		<dc:creator>JamesJoyce</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Oct 2009 18:11:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://campaignsilo.firedoglake.com/2009/10/06/senate-finance-delays-health-care-vote-did-baucus-screw-wyden-and-lose-his-vote/#comment-51196</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Just think, if you can, the &lt;strong&gt;“cost”&lt;/strong&gt; of the .73 cent on every dollar spent by Americans, as a society, on the potential energy known as gasoline, which has been &lt;strong&gt;“wasted”&lt;/strong&gt; in the form of heat energy for decades!   Politically Leveraged Corporate Protectionism has gutted America.  So lets do more of the same Max the Taxman!   Protect, give away taxpayer money to the very corporations who in light of decades of subsidies, by virtue of being tax exempt, can’t seem to get a grip on costs?  Lets give them more money Max and tax the governed who has paid the subsidy, for decades?&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;A BLEEPING JOKE  !!!!!!!!!!!!!!&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Just think, if you can, the <strong>“cost”</strong> of the .73 cent on every dollar spent by Americans, as a society, on the potential energy known as gasoline, which has been <strong>“wasted”</strong> in the form of heat energy for decades!   Politically Leveraged Corporate Protectionism has gutted America.  So lets do more of the same Max the Taxman!   Protect, give away taxpayer money to the very corporations who in light of decades of subsidies, by virtue of being tax exempt, can’t seem to get a grip on costs?  Lets give them more money Max and tax the governed who has paid the subsidy, for decades?</p>
<p>A BLEEPING JOKE  !!!!!!!!!!!!!!</p>
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		<title>By: gamd521</title>
		<link>http://fdlaction.firedoglake.com/2009/10/06/senate-finance-delays-health-care-vote-did-baucus-screw-wyden-and-lose-his-vote/#comment-51194</link>
		<dc:creator>gamd521</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Oct 2009 18:09:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://campaignsilo.firedoglake.com/2009/10/06/senate-finance-delays-health-care-vote-did-baucus-screw-wyden-and-lose-his-vote/#comment-51194</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;As often happens reports about health care reform begin by saying how complex the issue is and how many constituencies need to be satisfied.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Of course this is deliberate bull. First of all people band together to form insurance plans because it allows them to deal with expensive risks they face and insurers exist because of that need. Insurers are therefore subservient to the people that create the plan in order to meet their needs.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;The providing of insurance coverage is very straightforward and simple and there is only one constituency that needs to be taken into account, namely the people who contribute their money into the pool from which payments are made for medical costs. &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Furhter, whoever manages the payments from this pool can either do it&lt;br /&gt;
by exacting a profit or not. That decision should be left up to the people who contribute their money that creates the insurance plans in the first place and not to the manager employed to make the payments. &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;As to affordability, you ultimately receive the care that is able to be paid for by the pool of money in the insurance plan. Again nothing earth shaking. You certainly certainly try to bring down costs by negotiating with companies that provide the services such as doctors, hospitals and drug makers, but how is that a complicated issue.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;The truth is that lawmakers, some by ideology but most by complicity in graft, attempt to muddy the waters of what is in issence a very simple insurance arrangement with only one overriding constituent, namely the contributers to the plan. Those that continue to complicate the matter and want to stifle the right for the people that create insurance plans to decide who should manage their plan created by their money, should be votes out.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;The decisions as to who manages their plan and what the conditions of coverage are is for the contributers to decide not the mangers whose role is limited to making payments.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;There is simply no mystery about what needs to be done here. To harp about the need to promote competiton in the making of payments, which is all that insurers do, is a debate that has already been decided. Competing for making this very simple transaction is less efficient than having a single entity make these payments. The government makes these payments cheaper for a very simple reason and that is that paying a provider for a service rendered is straightforward and direct and doesn’t require 2 or 1,300 diferent entities to do the same thing.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As often happens reports about health care reform begin by saying how complex the issue is and how many constituencies need to be satisfied.</p>
<p>Of course this is deliberate bull. First of all people band together to form insurance plans because it allows them to deal with expensive risks they face and insurers exist because of that need. Insurers are therefore subservient to the people that create the plan in order to meet their needs.</p>
<p>The providing of insurance coverage is very straightforward and simple and there is only one constituency that needs to be taken into account, namely the people who contribute their money into the pool from which payments are made for medical costs. </p>
<p>Furhter, whoever manages the payments from this pool can either do it<br />
by exacting a profit or not. That decision should be left up to the people who contribute their money that creates the insurance plans in the first place and not to the manager employed to make the payments. </p>
<p>As to affordability, you ultimately receive the care that is able to be paid for by the pool of money in the insurance plan. Again nothing earth shaking. You certainly certainly try to bring down costs by negotiating with companies that provide the services such as doctors, hospitals and drug makers, but how is that a complicated issue.</p>
<p>The truth is that lawmakers, some by ideology but most by complicity in graft, attempt to muddy the waters of what is in issence a very simple insurance arrangement with only one overriding constituent, namely the contributers to the plan. Those that continue to complicate the matter and want to stifle the right for the people that create insurance plans to decide who should manage their plan created by their money, should be votes out.</p>
<p>The decisions as to who manages their plan and what the conditions of coverage are is for the contributers to decide not the mangers whose role is limited to making payments.</p>
<p>There is simply no mystery about what needs to be done here. To harp about the need to promote competiton in the making of payments, which is all that insurers do, is a debate that has already been decided. Competing for making this very simple transaction is less efficient than having a single entity make these payments. The government makes these payments cheaper for a very simple reason and that is that paying a provider for a service rendered is straightforward and direct and doesn’t require 2 or 1,300 diferent entities to do the same thing.</p>
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		<title>By: JamesJoyce</title>
		<link>http://fdlaction.firedoglake.com/2009/10/06/senate-finance-delays-health-care-vote-did-baucus-screw-wyden-and-lose-his-vote/#comment-51193</link>
		<dc:creator>JamesJoyce</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Oct 2009 17:57:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://campaignsilo.firedoglake.com/2009/10/06/senate-finance-delays-health-care-vote-did-baucus-screw-wyden-and-lose-his-vote/#comment-51193</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Stench is putting it mildly!  Ever caught the whiff a partially decomposed body?&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Stench is putting it mildly!  Ever caught the whiff a partially decomposed body?</p>
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		<title>By: JamesJoyce</title>
		<link>http://fdlaction.firedoglake.com/2009/10/06/senate-finance-delays-health-care-vote-did-baucus-screw-wyden-and-lose-his-vote/#comment-51188</link>
		<dc:creator>JamesJoyce</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Oct 2009 17:53:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://campaignsilo.firedoglake.com/2009/10/06/senate-finance-delays-health-care-vote-did-baucus-screw-wyden-and-lose-his-vote/#comment-51188</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Lets all be considered property like,  “Dred Scott”  I had no idea it was considered a “privilege” to be born into life?  The fundamental underpinnings of this argument for mandated health insurance as it relates to auto insurance analogy is as &lt;strong&gt;offensiv&lt;/strong&gt;e or &lt;strong&gt;more offensive&lt;/strong&gt; than Justice Taney’s dysfunction in “Dred Scott vs Sanford.”  Paraphrasing…  “Yes people of color are inferior, property and not entitled to the protection of law, in spite of the founders clear intent, “all men,” is “restrictive,” therefore dismiss Dred Scott’s  constitutional petition ASAP (no standing… a judicial Pontius Pilate) and protect the slave owners who are “addicted” and dependant on the uncompensated labor of slaves,  because it cost to much to protect human rights, and change!   Sounds like Max the Taxman and his corporate cohorts engaged in constitutional crime, should ask the SJC for some constitutional guidance before they set the seeds of another civil war as did Justice Taney?   RICOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO, anyone!&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Lets all be considered property like,  “Dred Scott”  I had no idea it was considered a “privilege” to be born into life?  The fundamental underpinnings of this argument for mandated health insurance as it relates to auto insurance analogy is as <strong>offensiv</strong>e or <strong>more offensive</strong> than Justice Taney’s dysfunction in “Dred Scott vs Sanford.”  Paraphrasing…  “Yes people of color are inferior, property and not entitled to the protection of law, in spite of the founders clear intent, “all men,” is “restrictive,” therefore dismiss Dred Scott’s  constitutional petition ASAP (no standing… a judicial Pontius Pilate) and protect the slave owners who are “addicted” and dependant on the uncompensated labor of slaves,  because it cost to much to protect human rights, and change!   Sounds like Max the Taxman and his corporate cohorts engaged in constitutional crime, should ask the SJC for some constitutional guidance before they set the seeds of another civil war as did Justice Taney?   RICOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO, anyone!</p>
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		<title>By: shootthatarrow</title>
		<link>http://fdlaction.firedoglake.com/2009/10/06/senate-finance-delays-health-care-vote-did-baucus-screw-wyden-and-lose-his-vote/#comment-51185</link>
		<dc:creator>shootthatarrow</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Oct 2009 17:47:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://campaignsilo.firedoglake.com/2009/10/06/senate-finance-delays-health-care-vote-did-baucus-screw-wyden-and-lose-his-vote/#comment-51185</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;On Jan.21 2009 newly sworn in President Obama failed to denounce Israel on the IDf/IAF ruthless attack on Gazans. That was a clear Strike One.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Since then the Obama WH has dithered,withered and slithered on enough other big issues (as I listed above) to now have fully not earned any more Good Until XX-XX-XX Expiration Dates.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;A six month look,see and hear was fairplay. A twelve month look,see and hear seems to be a waste of time,political patience and fairplay supply.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Clearly President Obama showed his hand with the PHARMA buy in/sell out lay of cards and it sure does not look like Senator Maximum Tax’em/Jail’em/Yes’em Baucus from M-I-C is getting any chilly from President “Change You Can Fool’em With” Obama and this Obama ex-Clintonites run WH. &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;The stench of the money politics at this point is very hard to ignore on the part of the Obama WH and DemocRATS in Congress.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Shame? Huh? Whats that?&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>On Jan.21 2009 newly sworn in President Obama failed to denounce Israel on the IDf/IAF ruthless attack on Gazans. That was a clear Strike One.</p>
<p>Since then the Obama WH has dithered,withered and slithered on enough other big issues (as I listed above) to now have fully not earned any more Good Until XX-XX-XX Expiration Dates.</p>
<p>A six month look,see and hear was fairplay. A twelve month look,see and hear seems to be a waste of time,political patience and fairplay supply.</p>
<p>Clearly President Obama showed his hand with the PHARMA buy in/sell out lay of cards and it sure does not look like Senator Maximum Tax’em/Jail’em/Yes’em Baucus from M-I-C is getting any chilly from President “Change You Can Fool’em With” Obama and this Obama ex-Clintonites run WH. </p>
<p>The stench of the money politics at this point is very hard to ignore on the part of the Obama WH and DemocRATS in Congress.</p>
<p>Shame? Huh? Whats that?</p>
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