Senators Rockefeller, Schumer, Stabenow and Widen of the Senate Finance Committee Sub-committee on Health, did a great job of pointing out that the Medical Industrial Complex’s contribution to Health Care Reform, according to the Congressional Budget Office (CBO) is $20 BILLION and in return they will get $500 BILLION in TAX-PAYER FUNDED SUBSIDIES. Democratic Senators baucus, conrad, carper, lincoln and nelson voted with the republicans to kill the public option 09-29-09.

Criminally corrupt politicians are the reason the U.S. is ranked near the bottom of every catagory when ranked next to other modern, industrialized nations. Time for publically funded elections.

lieberman $12.6M, mcconnell $7.8M, baucus $7.7M, cornyn $6.7M,
kyl $5.6M, grassley $5.4M, ensign $5.2M, conrad $5.1M, cantor $4.9M,
nelson $4.9M, burr $4.8M, boehner $4.4M, hatch $4.4M, lincoln $4.1M,
vitter $3.9M, carper $3.6M were paid by the Medical Industrial Complex to kill Health Care Reform. (Source: OpenSecrets.org, Aug. 09)

Follow the Money: Link

Call Congress and demand, Single-Payer Health Care for All!

(Toll Free # House and Senate)
1-866-338-1015 _____ 1-866-220-0044
1-800-473-6711 _____ 1-866-311-3405

Sign Single-Payer Petitions: Link Link

Don’t let the Medical Industrial Complex steal your Health Care from you and your family by donating huge sums of money to Crooked Politicians in order to maintain the Status Quo. Keep up the good fight.

SEMPER FI!

I think this is right. My feeling is that the vote is getting postponed – possibly indefinitely (they’re saying that the CBO scoring report may not come out until next week) becuse Baucus isn’t confident he has the votes. Snowe’s still on the fence, Lincoln and Nelson still aren’t considered reliable, and Wyden and Rockefeller are now added to the list of unknowns. Any three of these loses it for Baucus. The Hill, FWIW, reported that Wyden’s getting lots of calls from Obama operatives, probably reading him the riot act. Things are like quicksilver on that committee, and this is going to be a photo finish.

BTW, interesting report on yet another damning study on America’s murderous healthcare system:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/33…..gton_post/

death for more, essentially.

Jane, I’ve been urging us to try to stop this bill in Finance by giving encouragement to a Rockefeller/Wyden revolt, thus sending a signal to Baucus and other conservadems about our resolve in favor of real reform. Do you think this is the right strategy? Has it any chance of success?

Meanwhile I’m hearing endless budget scolds on the radio (I avoid TV gasbags) talking about the costs of fixing health care and all I can do is scream, “single payer!” in my mind. This whole process is a stupid exercise in incomprehensible buffoonery.

wow Jane, now that is some 4-1-1

and yes, saw Rahm was to go en pointe in the House this week – and making a show of it – good luck with that genius boy

The Senate Finance Committee vote won’t happen today. It has been pushed back until later this week or even next week, ostensibly so the CBO can come up with a final score.

I smell Rahm spinning there is no way the head of the Senate Finance Committee does not get his billed scored that is unless the CBO wants no raises for the next 8 years and to see their toilet paper funding dropped to the we have to use used newspaper level.
Nobody in Government screws with the guys helping determine your budget.

On the bright side, it’s nice to see some real politics for a change instead of the endless pablum of public relations. We have a lot to thank Jane for making this happen. The effects are going to outlast the health debate.

AND THE KILLIN’ GOEZ ON AND ON AND…

Citizen Hamsher and the Firepup Freedom Fighters:

What are the chances that the “liberals” on the finance committee can torpeodo the bill in committee and hold together behind Harkin to get the HELP bill beefed up and taken to the floor? It seems to me that there are enough real Democratic votes in both houses to save Obama from himself if not from Rahm…the question is, has Obama let the moment pass where he can muscle 60 votes for cloture?

Tell me that the “liberals” in the Senate can whip the Dogs in their caucus to vote cloture on a strong bill.

KEEP THE FAITH AND PASS THE AMMUNITION, THE STRUGGLE GOES ON AND ON AND…

Voting it down might well be progress.

Good report.

Go Sen. Wyden. My motto when dealing with the likes of big mouthed blow-hards like Rahm is, “F-me? F-you.”

Senate Finance Delays Health Care Vote: Did Baucus Screw Wyden And Lose His Vote?

Wyden was promised a vote on his amendment to keep him from slamming the bill too much during the process. At the last second Baucus said “no way” because the CBO didn’t have a cost estimate. Well things went ballistic

.

Yes I don’t even think Rahm can promise him big enough side deals in return big enough to cover a Public Diss like this on the number one news issue in the country for months.
The Senate is proud thats a fact we can use. Rahm disses him Wyden should be encouraged to get back at him and helping us does that.

Citizen barrelofmonkeys:

We’re screwed though if we hafta rely on Wyden for a strong bill on the floor of the Senate.

It sure does look like Max (and Rahm – and possibly Obama) have sure overplayed their hands in this. P*ss poor poker playing for sure and not anywhere near eleventy-’leven dimensional chess

After Baucus screwed Wyden some Senate staffers, furious with this whole ordeal and watching liberals on the committee get slapped, went into the parking lot and tore off their Obama bumper stickers as Nancy Anne DeParle went rushing after some!

Who is Nancy Anne DeParle and why was she rushing after the Senate staffers?

Thank you for the follow-up on the WITW was going on with CBO. CBO needs to go public and there needs to be an investigation regarding what happened to Wyden’s amendment in terms of CBO’s failure.

CBO works for us.

The last thing Wyden deserves is the riot act from the WH. It actually should be he other way around and CBO deserves more than a hand slap.

This is appaulling to read. Especially after reading the diary irt Wellpoint suing the state of Maine.

What would we think if any one voted for the Baucus crap? No one on the committee except Rockefeller appear to want a pervasive and complete public health care option. All the rest are owned by the insurance companies. We can’t count on the “Rock” quite yet, as he hasn’t actually voted for anything has he? I hope he keeps his word, and it appears he will. But there is no one else on that committee that one can expect anything from. They are a serious joke. The kind that can kill.
Dear Senator Wyden hasn’t proclaimed his interest in fair public health for anyone that wants it. He is still pandering to the insurance companies and trying to create a co op exchange that has never existed before. He seems to think the insurance companies are going to all of a sudden do right by Americans. Delusional.

Whew. I just saw the new TV ad from “Join Patients First,” an obvious industry shill group, pushing all the old “govt takeover” buttons. I get the feeling that THE MONOPOLY thinks this is all slipping out of control and the media carpet bombing will start anew.
So, if this bill just can’t get out of the finance committee, what are the likely ramifications? Can this just be stalled indefinitely and the industry wins by stalemate?

I also confirmed with other Hill sources that Baucus did something similar to another Senator on the committee — promised them “something” in exchange for keeping their criticism of the bill to a minimum, and then at the last minute the “something” didn’t appear.

Never Promise what you can’t deliver unless you know, not think know you won’t need something from that person later. Baucus unlike Bush can’t govern like Bush did he does not have 9/11 fear backing him.
Amateur Hour Politics

Citizen darkine01:

Poor Obama bought into the fairy tale about the political “genius” of Rham…and now it looks like he missed the opportunity to be relevant and maybe lost the power to influence ANYone as the bill goes to the floor. Obamarahma is dead…I just hope that the progressives in both houses can save Obama’s ass with a strong bill that gives the President a chance to sign it and fire the Likudnik from Illinois.

It is not so much Wyden we are relying on but the shear display that the system is broken due to what happened to Wyden – which was pure crap. Remember Wyden is sided with Rockefeller, which improves aspects of protest a little more.

Bull, Wyden hasn’t done anything real. His bills and amendments are in a committee that he knows will not release a bill at all. They all know this, We all know this, and why do we keep hoping that these tools will do anything to help us as a committee? They have never done so before, they will never do so.
This is embarrassing to see hope and faith in lieu of facts, and real action.

Can someone get with this Phil Ellis from CBO? Rachel, Keith?

Wyden “I sent one version there ( to CBO) the version had the voucher and I am reading verbatim what the CBO analysis was and unless CBO sends up a different version with respect to what was actually submitted I think that oughta count for something”

Conrad “this is a note from CBO this is a note from Phil Ellis who has the responsibility at CBO. And this is just minutes ago Phil Ellis “yes all we scored was giving employers the option we have not scored the voucher piece. That is directly from Phil Ellis”

Do you think this slap down was planned?

so will CBO send up the completed assessment?

Good stuff.

I hope The finance commitee vote is such an ugly disgusting embarassing affair that it teaches the WH never to mess with their Liberal base ever again.

I want to see Rahm take all the blame and resign.

Angery Proud Powerful men have been known to vindictive so there is hope:)

Who can talk with Phil Ellis the man Conrad was getting his last minute messages from?

Baucus needs to be sent to his room for good

Jane

Looks as if we have the usual Democratic circular firing squad. If they had all been honest and actually cared about the citizens, we could have had a single payer months ago. Now the Congress looks like a bunch of idiots, we’re getting screwed, and the rest of the world is laughing at us. Mission accomplished.

Baucus and Conrad will do anything to keep it exactly the way they want it. Wyden and the American people got royally sc#@!d.The only thing this garbage accomplishes is higher profits for insurance companies.

Citizen GDC707:

I saw the bastard that fronts for “Patients First” on C-Span this AM and thought that if they start a blitz against Obama and the bill then that might be enough for Obama to declare the treaty with Big Pharma to be broken and he can turn around and try and rally the progressives and whip the Blue Dogs…I’m afraid, however, that his inaction to this point has lost him ANY leverage with ANYone in this…the progressives in the Senate are the only ones who can save Obama’s sorry ass in this mess.

Are you listenin’ Sister Hamsher…remember someone’s been sayin that spendin’ money on the progressives against the leadership is the onliest way ta get a bill.

I’m not sure about that. I actually think that a successful progressive revolt in Finance would actually instill confidence in the party and increase its spine for the next step of battles. Also, weakening Baucus is not necessarily a bad thing for the party. It will also end the party’s seduction by bipartisanship.

Thank you for posting this jane. First the gays were ripping off their Obama bumper stickers over the WH defending marriage bans, now it’s Senate staffers? They need to get Rahm outta there at the very least.

DeParle is the designated WH Healthcare point gal on the Hill

Clinton appointee, Rhodes Scholar, JD from Harvard, revolving $$$ door, you know, the usual sh*

wiki

I would like to see Baucus weakened to the point he is crying in public and I’m all for a revolt, but will it get us what we need? I don’t know. They are all so cowardly, or maybe just greedy. Obama appears to be so weak at this point that I am also very concerned that if we lose on Health Care that we have nothing to fight with on the Climate bill.

this is so amazing to think that Conrad and Baucus undermined Wyden about who the vouchers would be in the hands of “employee” or “employer”

Wyden’s oped
Health Reform’s Missing Ingredient

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09…..;html?_r=1

“It would impose only one requirement on employers — that they offer their employees a choice of at least two insurance plans, one of them a low-cost, high-value plan. Employers could meet this requirement by offering their own choices. Or they could let their employees choose either the company plan or a voucher that could be used to buy a plan on the exchange. They could also simply insure all of their employees though the exchange, at a discounted rate.

“All payments that employers would make, whether in the form of premiums or vouchers, would remain tax-deductible as a business expense. Reinsurance and risk adjustment mechanisms already in the bill would balance the costs of employers who end up with disproportionately sick pools of workers, and this would avoid any disruption to existing employer coverage. Any employers that did not offer either their own choices or insurance through the exchange would be required to pay a “fair share” fee to help support the system.”

———————————————————————

If my understanding of this is correct were not talking about the “public option” here were talking about employees giving their insurance money to one of two insurance companies. That’s all Wyden was after. keeping the $$ in the hands of private insurance companies not real competition. this is what Baucus and Conrad were willing to undermine. They really have sold out

————————————————————————

Over at Seminal MM links to Mad as Hell Doctor Paul Hochfields debut on Countdown last night. This Doc talks about the real changes we need
http://seminal.firedoglake.com/diary/8752

I think it moves us forward by forcing a rethink on the part of the leadership and the president about what they need to do to get some sort of reform passed – and that’s a positive. Even if that rethink though, we won’t have a done deal. I would view failure in Finance as a small step forward in a long uphill climb. The wrong bill coming out of Finance I belive is a small step backward. I’d tather us push forward. I’m far from confident that this deal gets done at all, in the end, but all we can do is keep on pushing. I’m not one of those who thinks this’ll be done this year.

Citizen Blub:

No matter how this ends up, there are gunna be changes in the leadership in the Senate and probably the House (remember that there is no love lost between Nancy and the Tiny Dancer)…the only way ObamaRahma wins is if there is a bad bill voted off the floor of the Senate. Even if there is no bill this year, Rahm and the Blue Dogs are toast…unforunately, Obama is left in the White House with only Biden and the politicals guardin’ the boss’s ass.

until this fight, I failed to understand depth of the politicized nature of relationships btw Critters and the CBO, so it’s difficult to say if Ellis will come across – certainly not if he’s in the Elmendorf-Conrad faction

I second that. Wasn’t the whole idea to just get this piece of crap bill out of committee? Then serious reconstructive surgery could be performed so the patient could at least “function” at some level. Time is wasting. Soon enough thoughts will start turning to re-election and we all know how impossible it is to get members to focus on actually getting something done in the ever expanding election season. I’m starting to see time and media saturation as being our biggest enemies at this point in the battle.

wonder if Jane can talk with him directly or Keith, Rachel. you know about the assessment having to do with vouchers

Status quo interest are winning because money really has little to do with merit. Campaign contributions buy amplification of one’s position, even if the position is a lie. Say it enough times and people think it is truth!

No… Smoking tobacco does not cause lung cancer! (Tobacco Institute)
No… C02 produced by man has no effect on climate! (API & Exxon Mobile)

Conditioned and Compromised Minds like “compromised laws” destroy life and liberty!

Citizen cbl2:

CBO shmeebeeo…at this point there hasta be some leadership comin’ from a coalition of Senators (Schumer, Rockefeller, Harkin, Brown and Whitehouse) that understand that if this reform effort fails they are all on a sinkin’ ship.

Good. I hope this is right and that Baucus is having sleepless nights and sweating.

Yes. The good coming out of all this is the education on the reality and the extent of the cohabitation of politicians and corporates.

As to the delay on the vote: Remember Pat Roberts pleading for time for the “vendors” (aka insurance and pharma) and their lawyers to go over any bill before it leaves committee?

And she was running after the lowly Senate Staffers? I smell desperation!

you have to have a conscience for that to happen

Tiny Dancer

Rahm?

the president needs to save face and come out and say “I’ve heard the American people. We started this debate with my last speech, and now you’ve spoken. Now this is what we need to do…” and outline the NEW new plan for a strong public option and real reform.

So what is it save the policy, or serve the Governed? A facade of reform for partisan political gain that in the end “enslaves” Americans to corporations because government cannot fairly protect “RIGHTS,” compromised by political campaign contributions made to lawmakers, to advance their self interests…….. power and ego!

Jefferson is right and the politicians are screwing America to advance the corporate interest, profit, at the expense of Life and Liberty.

Go to hell Max the Taxman and be prepared to suffer the consequences of your myopic interests. Besides where is the faithful opposition on this proposed Life Tax, Max……

Wish they’d vote so we can move on to the next chapter of this story- whatever it is.

I second that. Wasn’t the whole idea to just get this piece of crap bill out of committee?

That was the plan Rahm did not think WE would be a factor:)

Soon enough thoughts will start turning to re-election and we all know how impossible it is to get members to focus on actually getting something done

Given how this is the biggest media story for months something will be done or the Dems lose face they can’t ignore the polls.
I am worried about a pig with lipstick bill passing though with a full court blitz of White House and Dem support on the MSM.
I am worried about a secret deal with the votes in the bag passing before we can respond or look over the details.

Having had my head in another pickle bar for the last several weeks, I have not followed this as closely as I otherwise might have. Thank you so much Jane for the link to Jay Rockerfeller’s story of Eddie. Yes, I got tears.

Mebbe-but is that really best?

And is it best this bill gets out of Finance? Or is it better to have it stall?

Almost time to stalk Maria, unsure what I’ll “urge.”

Yeah, I have many times wished for the destruction of that careful stage play between Pharma – Obama and The Monopoly. That would mean, however, Total War. Do we have the resources and resolve to counter the inevitable saturation bombing that would occur? I like to think so, but not sure. As for Obama, I don’t think he has “the fire in the belly,”credibility or willingness to kick ass. —No ba*ls. HEY! Maybe Jesse Jackson really DID cut ‘em off!

oh, and about that whole ‘hot potato’ thingy

Already, Senate aides are letting it be known that the White House will have to lead on all the issues around which Democrats have been unable to find consensus–issues like the public option.

Rahm, Orszag, and DeParle all to be included in a sit down w/ Max Tax and Harkin – when/if Baucus bill makes it out of committee

Roll Call

Would and will prefer total crash and burn of any so called “reform” of American healthcare at this point.

I truly believe Obama WH has taken the Judas Money. Obama WH is gaming this so called “reform” for worst of short term political calculations and expediency. Not thinking out to 2030 at all.

So very sick of Obama WH at this point and its lapdog Senator Max Baucus.

On or about FISA.

Torture.

More endless overt and covert meddling and war in Asia.

Wall St./Big Banking Handouts.

This healthcare reform debacle.

I hope the Democrats get beat up real bad in 2010 elections. Let the Do Nothing GOPers run WashingtonDC into the Potomac. Hope Obama WH runs out of support and loses WH in 2012.

With this Democratic Party who benefits during this so called “reform” of American healthcare? Who? American citizens or the for profit M-I-C?

Barack Obama and his WH seems very comfortable with the corporatists.

They deserve each others crash and burn.

Hit and run:

1. Installing a Martin Feldstein wannabe as director of the CBO isn’t working out?
Who could have predicted?

2. Stay klassy, Mrs. Bayh.

Jane, there was legislative language I didn’t understand when Wyden was involved in the late-night argument. I thought what was said was that his amendment was scored, but it was scored based on how the chairman had marked it. I sensed there was a step between the amendment and the score that led to just one part of the amendment being scored. Is that possible and, if so, who was responssible?

That would be so much like Michael Douglas in “The American President”, where he pulled the political compromise bill and sent the more progressive bill to the floor because it was the right thing to do. I know, it was only a movie, but it was a class act and Obama can show similar class as well, if he has a notion and the political common sense to do so.

have you politely urged her to stop characterizing her amendment as a Public Option ?

Jane, thanks so much for this — it makes all kind of sense.

Earlier today, I was trying to figure out how many people would **not** be covered under Cantwell’s proposal; without Wyden’s amendment (or Rockefeller’s), there’s a huge gap in the number of people covered. But I can’t quite figure out HOW BIG that gap in the number of people NOT covered under Cantwell’s proposal would be… anyone know?

Once Cantwell pulled the ’state’s rights’ rug out from under the GOP and the BlueDogs, did that inadvertantly reveal the stark, naked fact that Wyden (and Rockefeller’s) amendments are essential in getting everyone covered? If there’s a linkage between those two key topics: (states rights) + (number of Americans covered) then Baucus’s machinations are all the more despicable.

If Baucus’s version -requiring those of us already bailing out TARP to also pay for health insurance in a non-competitive, captive market –, the political hell is going to be unbelievable.

This whole thing has been horrifying to watch.
Jay Rock and Wyden really are looking like Profiles in Courage at this point.

I suck at strategy, but…

If the piece of crap that is the Baucus bill gets out of committee, then there are 60 votes for cloture. The bill goes through reconciliation where it is modified to include the PO. Since the House gets some say-so in reconciliation, the bill is pulled to the left. The final vote to pass the bill requires only 51 votes in the Senate, which is a possibility.

If the Baucus bill is killed, the next bill in line to be put up on the floor will be the HELP bill. Great. A much, much better bill that includes the PO…but there aren’t 60 votes for cloture. Healthcare reform dies.

So, isn’t the best thing for progressives to do now to get the piece of crap Baucus bill passed?

If it were up to me Obama would face a primary challenge next time around. He reminds me of Clinton. You spend your time defending him from ridiculous BS while he caters to the money class at almost every turn.

Yeah, I was not able to get accurate information on that point, either — and it’s a key point.
Did CBO mark up Wyden’s version? Or Baucus’s markup of Wyden’s proposal?

I find it bizarre that no one at CBO is getting fired over a mistake of this magnitude.
Or at the very least, getting demoted and being placed ‘on notice’ with extra supervision.

Yep, the game is that the Republicans go so far over the top that the Democrats are able to earn support through fear of fascism. But once in power, the Democrats prove themselves to be as subservient to corporate imperative as the Republicans.

The shit is going to hit the fan as the US $ ceases to be the world reserve currency. This will happen as soon as other economies begin to recover and the US economy remains mired in the aftermath of bogus serialization and Obama’s only solution is to try to put humpty dumpty back together again.

Obama is Hoover, and it is highly likely that the next president will be the right wing mirror image of FDR.

Heh. Has O been in office long enough to criticize yet?/snark.

Some said back in March that those of us who criticized O were just doing so because it was something to do… Just sayin’

I don’t think there’s any scenario in which they’ll try for cloture if the surviving bill is the HELP one. First of all, they’ll try to amend it on the floor, and we’ll have to fight that battle. Assuming enough of the bill is left (that still works for Dems) then they’ll know they have to pursue it through reconciliation. The trick is to make sure they have the 50 votes + VP.

But there’s another, better scenario. The awful bill fails in committee and they don’t change focus onto the HELP bill, and Finance tries again, this time with better leadership and with an “I see the light” president breathing down their necks. Wyden and Rockefeller can write it we’ll start from there.

My thinking that failure in Finance would not be a bad thing is not a ploy to move the HELP bill forward – its to force a rethink about Dem leaders and the WH that they need to do this right.

Did Baucus Screw Wyden And Lose His Vote? I hope so!

NAVDOC3rdMAR, Thank you for the links.

I signed for Single Payer Action:

http://www.singlepayeraction.org/join.html

And signed the Democracy for America petition:

http://www.americacantwait.com/TrueMajority

Oh, please.

Hell yes!

I said I liked her amendment (despite our problems here with Basic Health-many, and profound) but that she lessened herself and it by using that disingenuous phrase.

Her aide and I had a lovely chat about it, really.

I don’t thin kshe’s used it since-right?

And I spread the word…

I am leaning towards urging her to vote against Max’s monster of a bill.

She won’t, of course.

But after her last whicker-thin election it will make her nervous…we will primary her if needs be.

Yeah, I don’t see the HELP bill being helpful for progressives because there is too much resistance to it in the Senate. If progressives want the PO to survive, we need to get the POS Baucus bill out of committee and onto the floor.

No PO in the final product, THEN the bill must be killed.

Citizen yellowsnapdragon:

No, the worst thing that could happen is a weak bill comin out of either the Senate or conference…no bill gaurantees that there will be significant changes in leadership right up into the White House and I ain’t sure that single payer might not come out next session, to save the Democrat’s asses in 2010.

But I can’t quite figure out HOW BIG that gap in the number of people NOT covered under Cantwell’s proposal would be… anyone know?

Jon Walker tackled the meat of her amendment here – check out his embedded links for the wonky goodness

I still think that’s the riskier strategy – letting an almost unredeemable bill get to the floor. The president wants this to happen because of politics – so he can be seen to be moving forward. Is this really in our interests? I would much rather see Finance acknowledge failure with this version, draft a clean bill, and start again, and again, until they get it right. The official timing (Christmas) does not have to be our timing… as long as we can sustain the momentum.

An ad of CPR and Rick Scott, “Mastermind of Town Hall Riots,” just aired here in East Tennessee on CNN.

They started buying some tv spots here after HCAN blanketed the TN networks with ads.

The fact that Citizens for Patients’ Rights is spending money in Tennessee, and so feeling the need to defend what they thought was safe for them, I think shows that Health Care for America NOW!’s efforts are making a serious dent in a red state.

The Party of No is worried.

I oh so respectfully reminded her staffer that the WH has an annoying habit of abandoning it’s allies when their various trial balloons fail to launch -

oh, and a big phat good on ya !

If a tepid PO can’t get out of the Senate, single payer doesn’t have a whisper of a prayer.

If a weak bill comes out of reconciliation, it should be killed. And then we should purge the useless Democrats.

Citizen Blub:

Might as well kill any bill so that they ken start over again in 2010 with the only thing to save the Democrats at the polls in November bein’ single payer or a real public option.

Yeah, but what about cloture? A good bill can’t pass the Senate with the rediculous 60 vote threshhold.

A right wing reflection on a one way mirror? Good call! Glad I have saved all my cartridges over the years. I’ll be spending considerable time reloading them in anticipation of a visit from the “feds” to throw me in jail for not buying health insurance? I really do not need it, because under this proposed law I’m a fucking slave to corporations, Government and already a dead man! From the sounds of it “MAD MAX” will be needed, as an answer to Max the Taxman!

Citizen yellowsnapdragon:

The imperative of elections in 2010 demands that now a real healthcare reform get done…neither the fascists or the Democrats will win politically if there is no bill and the Democrats will still have their majorities and the knowledge that only real healthcare reform can save their asses.

I’m not sure any deal can be done with 60 at all… not with the likes of Lincoln, Landrieu and the Great Troll of Stamford. Isn’t reconciliation still an option?

Jane, one more reason that I thank you for this post (from the bottom of my heart) is that when I was trying to figure out the impact of Wyden’s proposal, BECAUSE his is the only one that I’ve seen that really, truly makes healthCo’s have to compete**.

But a key to pricing is the SIZE OF THE POOL.

Last week on a “Morning Meeting” episode at MSNBC, a healthCo lobbyist was on the same segment as Ron Wyden.

Wyden explained out ‘unlinking’ health care coverage packages from employment breaks the lock on monopolies in health care. The lobbyist countered — badly! — by claiming that Wyden’s proposal would ‘destabilize the pools’. That’s hogwash!

Now, if you assume that each person leaving a specific employer package somehow ’shrinks’ that employer pool, that could be true. BUT that is not actually the way it works (!). Because if the healthCo has a good health care package, then they can attract other customers from other ‘pools’ will join in, thereby keeping the size of the ‘coverage pools’ in flux.

However, if the healthCo has a shitty package designed for them to extract profits at the cost of customers (and employers), then they’d make exactly the argument that healthCo lobbyist made: “Bleat! Bleat! Sob! Sob! Wyden will destabilize our health care ‘pools’ (of customers) because people can leave crap providers and then that means those left stuck in that profit-extracting nightmare will see their costs rise even faster. Whine! bleat!”

To summarize: If you have good products in a competitive system, you don’t have to worry about ‘pool shrinkage’ because you can retain your happy customers.

If you are hiding a monopolistic, money-extracting system behind a veil of whining about ‘pool sizes’, then you’re going to want Wyden’s bill tanked.

Why?
Because Wyden is your biggest threat.

Significantly, Cantwell’s proposal is incremental; it doesn’t address the underlying problem of why we even provide health care in a ‘for profit’ model.

But Wyden’s proposal (and Jay Rock’s) both take direct aim at the underlying problem of monopolistic behavior. Which is making Baucus look really, really loathsome.

** yeah, I know: “compete”, what a concept, eh?

Is there a requirement under Senate rules that a bill must go through the Finance Committee if it meets certain criteria? That is, if it is passable under reconciliation, can it avoid Finance?

In other words, can’t the full Senate consider the HELP bill?

and mebbe snake oil salesman Scott has found yet another means to milk his corporate sponsors for mo money, mo money, mo money! usually like campaign operatives, there’s x percentage of $$$ for him in his contract for every ad run

I hope the TN numbers are trending HCAN’s way, just wanted to you to know these ho’s have several avenues to work it

Exactly.

Democrats will get decimated in 2010 if real healthcare reform doesn’t happen. They will have to be purged to get anything done.

More hardball from the WH and Baucus on behalf of the insurance companies.

I have to believe as well, that those Hill staffers know a hell of a lot more about where Obama truly stands than any of us out in the weeds. That they were pulling Obama bumper stickers off their cars says most of it, that deParle was chasing after them says the rest.

Obama is aiming for no PO. F him.

Hey Leen,

Truth is not a factor, only profit!

Here is Kagro and his wonks take on what happens if bill doesn’t make it out of fin. committee

They can’t. So the only way to get anything passed is to use parliamentary maneuvers to get around a filibuster.

I don’t know all the arcane rules of the Senate, but it seems like reconciliation is the only way to have a bill passed with a simple 51 vote majority.

The Orahma misstep in selling out the PO and Americans in return for a pittance from the crim-med profiteers is SO big, given the stakes and attention… it is hard to believe.

Methinks this might be a royal screwup that will blow up in their faces.

How dare Obama think he could give up something this crucial to the heart of health care reform without anyone noticing?

The audacity of lies.

Just called and blasted them. The operator wanted to put me through to my senator but, I told her that my senator is not the problem. I live in NJ and Menendez is for the public option. I told her that she should inform the whitehouse that the internet is a buzz with voters who are saying that if there is no public option without triggers, we’re not voting for them in 2010 and Obama can start packing his bags now. I also mentioned that I’m sure the Dems have noticed that their fundraising is down and it will stay that way until the bill is passed! That felt good!

Thanks so much cbl2! I’ll get to it later in the day, as it’s really bugging me.
I really appreciate the info ;-))

Thanks, that makes me brain hurt just reading it, better go get me brain medicine from the national helf.

Yeah, I see your point… sad, really. I tend to think in terms of the resources of pro-PO groups like FDL Action, which must be used carefully and strategically, and I forget sometimes that the resources of those who back groups like CPR and the Rick Scott’s of the world are essentially limitless.

Apparently it’s all irrelevant-up to the President:

http://theplumline.whorunsgov……ic-option/

Only one person to lobby that matters, apparently.

that’s what I thought… and that’s how this is going to get done. We’re not getting it done with 60… not even with the Baucus Bail-out, much less for something we can actually live with. We’re not getting a single rethug vote on any remotely acceptable bill and possibly not even on BaucusCare. We’re going to lose Lincoln, the Great Troll, and a few others for the right bill. Heck, we’d probably even lose the Great Troll for the wrong bill. I think we can get to 51 but not 60.

Any bill which requires a “mandate to purchase insurance from a corporation under fear of tax penalty,” is unconstitutional bullshit. It strikes at the very reason the constitution was adopted to set limits on what government could do to the governed. Further, is not employer based health insurance offered to attract quality employees? Additionally, providing a leveraging mechanism, for the benefit of EMPLOYERS over employees?

Segregation was state sponsored discrimination which undermined the civil and constitutional rights of Americans in Southern states. The current health care system deprives people of property under the color of law because they cannot afford with or without insurance, the cost associated with medical treatment. So ask yourself? Do I know the tax status of my corporate health insurer? Imagine a system where the tax is paid by force to have access to a product or service provided by a tax exempt corporation! That is what is being done here. Americans are forced to pay a premium, to many tax exempt insurers, who then allow access to tax exempt providers. I would remind folks that the colonists were required to pay a high tax to have access to “Tea” sold to the colonist by the King’s tax exempt “East India Tea Company.” Now with tea, the “need” per se, like tobacco is arguable? A real need vs a perceived instilled need! However when it comes to health care, I guess it is just a perceived need, like the King’s tea?

A tax to be levied on “Life,” because government cannot find an effective means to control health care inflation costs within a service industry, where many of the corporations, which “gut us” are for tax law purposes considered public charities with tax exempt status?

Wyden is not in favor of a public health care option. There is no documentation of his ever saying he is for anything except insurance. Please don’t give this man credit for something he is against. If he votes against Baucus, great. A minor step toward humanity. He is a progressive in anything he isn’t being paid to ignore. But he ignores a great deal.
If we do not demand public health care for free and for all, we will get nothing at all. Never surrender, for it is your life you cast away.

some Senate staffers, furious with this whole ordeal and watching liberals on the committee get slapped, went into the parking lot and tore off their Obama bumper stickers

What took them so long? I ripped my Obama bumper sticker off after FISA.

From anyone else, you’re right, but Wyden’s actually the one guy who might just be able to back his way into an acceptable strong PO by another name. Remember, the strong PO is not the end in itself.. its to introduce public competition in order to contain costs. If you really analyze his full proposal (beyond the one amendment) and it all gets done, the implications are pretty stunning. I’m not saying that I agree with him.. I don’t yet, but he’s a tricky guy and he wants and intends to get a much better package than he seems to be asking for. He does it with the numbers and with complexity though.. which is not necessarily a good thing. I just don’t think he can sell it, and his way is much more exposed to dilution through the legislative ptocess precisely because nobody really seems to understand it… and that may include the CBO if they ever get around to scoring his proposals. But there’s more there than hot air and another compromise.

With this Democratic Party who benefits during this so called “reform” of American healthcare? Who? American citizens or the for profit M-I-C?

I sense another bumper sticker: “With Democrats like this, who needs Republicans?”

We can put it right next to: “I Voted for Change in 2008, and All I Got Was This Lousy Bumper Sticker.”

but it was a class act and Obama can show similar class as well,

Are you still waiting for the Easter Bunny and Tooth Fairy?

What I meant to say is, the PO is the only solution that has a shot at working which also has a shot at passing. There are other approaches, including the full measure of what Wyden is proposing that also have a shot at working but IMO no shot at passing.

That’s the problem. We’re waiting around for that “American President” Louis (Michael J. Fox) moment. It’s my business because I’m a citizen… Someone has to p*ss Obama off enough to force that card. Scrap the bill and force single payer. But that’s a movie. And this is that stupid place on the other side of the Potomac.

I’m not sure, that’s why I was asking. Thanks for the input.

For the protection of corporations who violated simple clear law (FISA) put in place to address the propensity for “Executive,” abuse of power?

Mr. President give us something concrete to demonstrate your concern for the American people, opposed to systemic protectionism of the very corporations, processing us like cattle, for profit!

Democrats will get decimated in 2010 if real healthcare reform doesn’t happen.

I think they’re going to get decimated if they pass this piece of shit with “mandates” enforced by the IRS.

Better nothing than crap.

The problem with this mess is that the longer it is dragged out the longer the climate change/green jobs bill takes to happen and the less likely stimulus 2.0 happens. Because you know (as Atrios says) we cut all the good stuff out to appease Olympia Snowe. Where’s the CCC and WPA for the 21st century?

Actually.. from Obama, I think that sort of come-to moment is actually within the realm of possibility. I think he’s wrong – tactically and ideologically, on this issue. I also think he’s a committed centrist. But he wants this done, and I think he might just do the right thing if pushed into it by a strong progressive revolt. And when he reaches that point – because we’ve pushed him there – he’ll give a darn good speech conceding the point.

They make people take out auto liability insurance in order to be granted the privilege of driving.

Upon what privilege is the mandate to purchase health insurance from a company whose primary motive is to not provide health care unless absolutely necessary, the privilege of living?

At this point, I think healthcare reform has to be a singular focus, unfortunately. Those other things are all good and need to happen, but they WILL NOT happen if healthcare reform fails (either because it just doesn’t happen at all or because its results are so diluted and awful that the plurality of Americas realize it). However long it takes, and whatever it takes politically, Obama doesn’t have a choice. It isn’t pass this or not and move on to the next thing.. it’s get this done right, or be a lame duck for 3 years. He needs this deal. Which is why he’s perfectly happy to sell out to Baucus et al, and he’ll be just as willing to sell out to us progressives, if we push as half hard and as nastily as the corporacrats are. He’ll sell-out to whomever will either deliver a deal or block it. And I think we can block it if we had to. This is the hard-bargaining phase.

I respect your opinion, and I of course hope you’re right, but Obama & his crowd have Lucy’d that football once too many times for me.

I’m not saying he’ll do the right thing because its right. He’ll do it only if he’s forced to.. which means we have to do the forcing. But, unlike shrub, he’ll do it. For cynicism perhaps, but he’ll do it…

On Jan.21 2009 newly sworn in President Obama failed to denounce Israel on the IDf/IAF ruthless attack on Gazans. That was a clear Strike One.

Since then the Obama WH has dithered,withered and slithered on enough other big issues (as I listed above) to now have fully not earned any more Good Until XX-XX-XX Expiration Dates.

A six month look,see and hear was fairplay. A twelve month look,see and hear seems to be a waste of time,political patience and fairplay supply.

Clearly President Obama showed his hand with the PHARMA buy in/sell out lay of cards and it sure does not look like Senator Maximum Tax’em/Jail’em/Yes’em Baucus from M-I-C is getting any chilly from President “Change You Can Fool’em With” Obama and this Obama ex-Clintonites run WH.

The stench of the money politics at this point is very hard to ignore on the part of the Obama WH and DemocRATS in Congress.

Shame? Huh? Whats that?

Lets all be considered property like, “Dred Scott” I had no idea it was considered a “privilege” to be born into life? The fundamental underpinnings of this argument for mandated health insurance as it relates to auto insurance analogy is as offensive or more offensive than Justice Taney’s dysfunction in “Dred Scott vs Sanford.” Paraphrasing… “Yes people of color are inferior, property and not entitled to the protection of law, in spite of the founders clear intent, “all men,” is “restrictive,” therefore dismiss Dred Scott’s constitutional petition ASAP (no standing… a judicial Pontius Pilate) and protect the slave owners who are “addicted” and dependant on the uncompensated labor of slaves, because it cost to much to protect human rights, and change! Sounds like Max the Taxman and his corporate cohorts engaged in constitutional crime, should ask the SJC for some constitutional guidance before they set the seeds of another civil war as did Justice Taney? RICOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO, anyone!

Stench is putting it mildly! Ever caught the whiff a partially decomposed body?

As often happens reports about health care reform begin by saying how complex the issue is and how many constituencies need to be satisfied.

Of course this is deliberate bull. First of all people band together to form insurance plans because it allows them to deal with expensive risks they face and insurers exist because of that need. Insurers are therefore subservient to the people that create the plan in order to meet their needs.

The providing of insurance coverage is very straightforward and simple and there is only one constituency that needs to be taken into account, namely the people who contribute their money into the pool from which payments are made for medical costs.

Furhter, whoever manages the payments from this pool can either do it
by exacting a profit or not. That decision should be left up to the people who contribute their money that creates the insurance plans in the first place and not to the manager employed to make the payments.

As to affordability, you ultimately receive the care that is able to be paid for by the pool of money in the insurance plan. Again nothing earth shaking. You certainly certainly try to bring down costs by negotiating with companies that provide the services such as doctors, hospitals and drug makers, but how is that a complicated issue.

The truth is that lawmakers, some by ideology but most by complicity in graft, attempt to muddy the waters of what is in issence a very simple insurance arrangement with only one overriding constituent, namely the contributers to the plan. Those that continue to complicate the matter and want to stifle the right for the people that create insurance plans to decide who should manage their plan created by their money, should be votes out.

The decisions as to who manages their plan and what the conditions of coverage are is for the contributers to decide not the mangers whose role is limited to making payments.

There is simply no mystery about what needs to be done here. To harp about the need to promote competiton in the making of payments, which is all that insurers do, is a debate that has already been decided. Competing for making this very simple transaction is less efficient than having a single entity make these payments. The government makes these payments cheaper for a very simple reason and that is that paying a provider for a service rendered is straightforward and direct and doesn’t require 2 or 1,300 diferent entities to do the same thing.

Just think, if you can, the “cost” of the .73 cent on every dollar spent by Americans, as a society, on the potential energy known as gasoline, which has been “wasted” in the form of heat energy for decades! Politically Leveraged Corporate Protectionism has gutted America. So lets do more of the same Max the Taxman! Protect, give away taxpayer money to the very corporations who in light of decades of subsidies, by virtue of being tax exempt, can’t seem to get a grip on costs? Lets give them more money Max and tax the governed who has paid the subsidy, for decades?

A BLEEPING JOKE !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Thanks cbl2. My head hurts just reading Kargo X when he gets into the details of procedure. Trying…to…wrap…head…around…procedure…..

“The truth is that lawmakers, some by ideology but most by complicity in graft, attempt to muddy the waters of what is in issence a very simple insurance arrangement with only one overriding constituent, namely the contributers to the plan. Those that continue to complicate the matter and want to stifle the right for the people that create insurance plans to decide who should manage their plan created by their money, should be votes out.”

So when health insurance corporations operate tax exempt, a subsidy by the taxpayer, and this health insurance corporation then discriminates and uses contractual shenanigans to deny coverage, to an insured at the state level, lawmakers concerned about the obliteration of the insured right’s, under the color of law should be voted out to protect the interest of the plan managers and the insured?

1) The biggest pool is 310,000,000 Americans

2) Just for shitz and giggles…. BCBS MA 2007 IRS 990 Gross 2.4 billion Tax exempt after expenses $800,000,000 in assets, tax free?

3) Why not use IRS tax code to control “corporate behavior” in Health care?

Equal Protection of Law for Americans?
Due Process for Americans?
14th Amendment for American? Protect Corporations……….

Tax US Max to hand money over to tax exempt and for profit corporations bankrupting America under the color of law? Who needs a King on the other side of the pond? We have “asselephant hybrids” beholding to corporate, right here in America, gutting Americans!

I certainly see your point.
More people still need to question why health care is being provided on a for-profit basis.
Every week, I sense that more people understand the healthCo monopolies are anti-competitive, and that’s progress. (Actually, in that respect, the GOP was stupid to drag this conversation out, although I think in a ghoulish fashion they were waiting for one or more Dems to pass away, and expecting they could drag out Senate replacement appointments. Like all evil deeds, it’s coming back to bite them in the ass. Poetic justice.)

Why is John Fund (blecchh) at WSJ reporting as of 12:31 pm today that this will go to a vote tomorrow, I wonder? (can’t find a link or I’d share it, read it earlier this afternoon from another PC)

Considering the source, could it be disinfo?

I’m sorry I don’t follow. I am stating what is obvious:

1- The group of people that pay the premiums that create an insurance pool are the only constituency that needs to be satisfied because it is their money that is used to make payments. They create the plan.

2- The managers who actually make these payments have that as their only function, they are derivative. The manager can be the government which charges nothing to make these payments or it can be a company that charges a profit for the same simple transaction.

3. You can be subject to a comapny to disburse your money for you and to keep a portion of it, if you like but you would be a fool to do so. Especially when there is another entity that will do the exact same thing for free.

4. It is an abject situation to have no say in the matter and to be forced to give our money away needlessly.

5- The pool of people that can currently contribute to a public plan is the 46 million uninsured for lack of affordability of private premiums. This number is enough to create a viable pool of funds.

We don’t need to provide incentives to anyone, either you perform the simple task of paying for a health service at a profit cheaper than an entity that does the same for free or you are not able to. This is especially the case when the payments are made with other people’s money.

The thing is that it is completely insane to give money to some private entity and then be subject and hostage to what they would like to do with it. That system is patently absurd. And to not have the choice to opt in favor of a better plan is doubly insane.