Lost in the hyperventilating over Wilson’s indefensible outburst is the fact that Obama is lying.

I’m willing to give ‘em a signup ID check if it means we get ab strong public health insurance option.. but only if ;-P. But somehow I don’t think that it’s going to work that way.

“Travesty” is exactly the right word for the Senate bill and also correctly describes the latest stunt. For me the overriding issue is the stinking mandate idea: I honestly can’t believe that anyone with a heart and a brain expects us to be happy about being forced to give money to these pirates. It’s beyond outrageous. It simply beggars the imagination.

As a Christian and a liberal, I personally feel we should provide health care to anyone who needs it regardless of country of origin.

However, like Blub, I’d be willing to compromise on some kind of proof of citizenship in order to participate in the “exchange” if we got a real public option in return.

Sadly, the new definition of compromise seems to be that the left gives up something and in return the left gives up a little more.

And you know, I’ve been thinking that these governors threatening to somehow block health reform in their states would draw the wrath of their constituents, but considering the probable REQUIREMENT to buy insurance, I’m wondering now if they won’t be seen as some kind of freaking saviors!

Yeah this mandate thing just blows my mind. All these rightwing tinfoil hat types rage against the government forcing them to pay taxes, but they seem fine as long as the government is just forcing us to pay money to some greedy corporate parasite.

If the money is going to the public good with little overhead and no profits, it’s tyranny, but if it goes into some rich guy’s pockets, it’s liberty.

Damn! If Wilson had just yelled “Single payer!” we’d be home now.

OT — with Halloween coming up, but the economy still in the crapper, I have a good inexpensive costume idea. It’s a creature that’s scarier than a vampire or werewolf, but won’t cost much at all to realistically imitate on Halloween night. You just need a couple of feet of tinfoil and some teabags. If you want to really dress it up, I’m sure you could find some dirt cheap Hannity or Coulter books at the local dollar store.

So what are they going to do, change the bill to ban emergency rooms from treating illegal aliens, and to forbid civil servants from collecting their rotten corpses off the street?

This isn’t that far from what the right is calling for. I’ve seen several discussions about this issue, and when sane people point out that nothing in the bill extends any benefits to unauthorized immigrants, every time they will answer that emergency rooms treat them. No matter that the bill doesn’t change that.

Proof of citizenship is well and good (although I, like SurfLizard2, believe that healthcare should be free for all) but what about “legal” immigrants, those with green cards that have been waiting for bloody ages to get their citizenship? Oh hell, the whole argument is damned silly. Mandating payments to private corporations or, just as evil, giving tax payer’s money away to insurance corps is effin’ nuts. If we are going to “subsidize” health care why not let anyone join medicare?

The only discussions going on between the WH and the zookeepers on capitol hill is how best to cover their collective asses, as they give away the store, so as to get re-elected enabling them to steal more.

Proof of citizenship? What about legal working immigrants? They won’t be
eligible for insurance? This makes no sense. US citizens working abroad
enjoy the benefits of their host country’s health system; why should we
disallow foreign workers the same right?
Baucus and Conrad need taking to the woodshed.

So what are they going to do, change the bill to ban emergency rooms from treating illegal aliens,…

No I believe there will be death panels available to make those decisions.

They have no shame, none.

So if the racist wingnuts are obnoxious enough to heckle the President during his speech, why aren’t we pushing for health care coverage for undocumented immigrants?

What is the right going to do, yell louder?

One can only imagine what President Obama could be if he weren’t under the influence of a craven Rahm E.

Wonderful how the “corporate interest” is again protected. Corporate profit and corporate gain trump life and liberty everyday. This quid pro quo is “government mandated health care” now at a federal level “unconstitutional??” in return for the “”corporate insurance promise”” “not to discriminate,” “under the color of state law?” It is sad to realize many state regulated corporate health insurers operate as “tax exempt corporations,” considered Public Charities for tax law purpose, while the tax code is now utilized in Massachusetts to leverage people into CORPORATE SERVITUDE! Now the federal tax code will be used as a “gauntlet,” to intimidate people into paying a “Life Tax” to protect corporations while Americans are ignorant to the fact the corporation insurer… many are tax exempt entities!! What a deal for America????

The “enemy from within” is leveraged corporate servitude, enslavement of the American people enabled under the color of law, just as as the King of England and his corporate cohorts in colonial crime exploited the American colonist, our forefathers, in the lust for power and fortune.

Justice Taney protected slave-owners, under the color of law! Now we witness the protection of corporations to the detriment of the republic and the rights of Americans now subordinate and subservient to corporations! What a deal for America???

Would be good to see more people applying for passports as proof of citizenship. With only 15% of the population holding a passport it’s not surprising that so many Americans are so provincial and quite clueless about how many other countries around the world have a big heads up on the U.S..

Obama picked the guy. Water seeks its own level. If Rahm is such a dirtbag – and it’s abundantly clear that he is – then why doesn’t BO do the right thing and send him packing?

I don’t think we’re in Kansas anymore…

Perhaps in due time. He has the potential of being a great President but he he has to get out from under the spell of Rahm, Geithner, Summers etc.

D amn
L ousy
C lintons

I suppose the mandate wouldn’t apply to illegal aliens, either.

be nice.

That’s a good point. And the more time I have to think about it, I have to amend my previous statement that the citizenship thing is a compromise worth making. The ramifications of such a stipulation could be really ugly.

Are hospital ER’s going to start looking like border crossings now where you have to present your passport to even get in? If jackasses like Wilson have their way, probably.

I prefer illegal immigrants or undocumented immigrants. “aliens” sounds so rethug ;-)

but yeah.. that’s an idea I’m, sure the rethugs would like: Let’s make’em pay for healthcare but not give ‘em any services!

Yeah, so many liberals seem to think that Obama didn’t expect Rahm to be Rahm, and that he just doesn’t know what to do about him.

Obama knew exactly what he was getting with Rahm. That’s why he picked him.

If Obama keeps this up we may have to “Carter” him in 2012.

I’m not sure that having a passport matters. I used to have a passport, traveled quite a bit, but now I’m too old and don’t have one. Sadly, the people who have the money to travel are older.
And there’s info to be had in a zillion places – you don’t have to leave home to be well-informed. The problem is not the passport. It’s the lack of interest in other places because many feel that they don’t need to know anything about other countries.
America’s perfect so why bother. Right? /s

Oh that’s a good one. It’s Clinton’s fault!

There really doesn’t seem to be any limit to what the administration will do to pass Rahm Emanuel’s neoliberal giveaway to the insurance, banking, mortgage, coal, security contracting, industries

fixed it for ya

thank goodness they held fast against anti-labor forces . . . oh wait

hopefully this is just limited to an ID check at the point of signup for policies at the exchange. I think that’s what Baucus is saying.. to implement the otherwise unforceable existing prohibition in the bill not to actually insure illegal immigrants. I don’t think it refers to emergency rooms although I’m sure Joe Wilson would like nothing better than to stand outside the hospital with his shot gun and his white sheet and hood to defend American against sick brown people. “Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore, send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me” and we will shoot ‘em dead.

we may have to “Carter” him in 2012

Well, how did that strategy work out?

Baucus wants to do for climate change what he has done for health care.

For liberal Democrats unhappy with the way Max Baucus is handling health care reform, here’s another dose of bad news: He’s got his hands on climate and energy, too.

Behind closed doors, Sen. Baucus has been staking his claim on major aspects of the climate bill, including financing for a cap-and-trade system.

I’ll bear that in mind, but alien is a legal term, not a pejorative.

well that was my initial thought, that it’s illegal for them to sign up for the plan anyway (at least from my understanding of some of the bills that have already come out of committee), so why not?

But the more I thought about it, the more it started to sink in on where this would end up going as it went through the sausage-making process.

And the bigger problem is that in would only encourage the kind of behavior we saw at the joint session. And just like the lousy co-op idea, it still won’t appease the radicals anyway.

Of course AHIP is proud of their role with this “reform”. It’s why they’ve spent millions in ads in support of it.

It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to figure out why. Even if you agree with the profit margin of 3% (I don’t), 3% on revenues today of say $100Billion in revenues for an avg ins co. means $3 Billion in profits.

Now imagine how much revenues are going to go up because of 1) mandates, obviously, no brainer, but also 2) the “goodies” of disallowing: non coverage for pre-existing coverage, dropping coverage when sick, and lifetime limits. These “goodies” mean the ins. cos. spend more, so their premiums are going to go up up up, no worries about competition because all of them have to cover all these new “goodies”.

Now that same ins co with $100 Billion in revenues suddenly has $200 Billion in revenues and their profit just went to $6 Billion. FUN TIMES INDEED.

Kill this thing.

Now.

Medicare for ALL in Jan 2010, then if, IF, we have to, settle for a real PO in 2010 election season with 77% of public supporting it in an election year.

Damn! If only states like New York and California had more population than Montana, maybe we could have a voice in national politics too.

One can only hope that Joe Wilson (R-SC) catches the H1N1 virus from someone who is “here illegally” and not deemed worthy enough to get vaccinated.

It is striking how idiotic Congress is, in both parties, about the public health implications of treating healthcare reform as some benefit that you are doling out to people based on whether they deserve it or not.

Isn’t it Harry Reid that gives out assignments to committees and makes the decision regarding the chairperson? IOW, can’t we blame Harry for who is in charge of the finance committee that has the final word on almost everything?

Didja see KO’s special comment last night? Classic. Gotta get the stupid outta government.

It is striking how idiotic Congress is, in both parties, about the public health implications of treating healthcare reform as some benefit that you are doling out to people based on whether they deserve it or not

Nail on the head right there. Treating it as though a benefit instead of a right that benefits us all, like public education. Everyone benefits from a better educated society, which is why everyone is entitled to it and pays for it in taxes. Well, everyone benefits from a healthier society, which is why everyone should be entitled to it and help pay for it through taxes.

The rest of the modern world figured this out a long time ago.

Shame on us.

And WHOOPS, OH BOY I USED THAT BAD BAD BAD WORD “ENTITLEMENT.”

Right wingers reading this are having orgasms over how the libbby libs are demanding more ENTITLEMENTS.

Fuck ‘em, and the corrupt horse and pony show party they belong to.

Sufilizard2 is Christian?!? (Love your handle, by the way.)

Well if the pandemic hits, Obama just needs to broadcast another speech to schools, then everyone will keep their kids home from school and it won’t spread as quickly. /snark

Yep, believe it or not. If you think I’m politically liberal/radical, you should see what I’m doing theologically ;-)

The “sufi” part comes from my appreciation of Jalaladdin Rumi’s poetry and his mysticism. A lot of rivers lead to the ocean, you just don’t want to mistake your river FOR the ocean.

Any youtube of that?

Scarecrow has a front page cross-post already in progress for our perusal: “Slouching Away from 9/11”

I’ve got the audio podcast on my iPod out in the car that I plan on listening to either on the way to lunch or on the way home. I’m sure you can find something on the MSNBC site if its not on YouTube yet.

I’m sure the rethugs will want to play the role of that the Saudi religious police does in fires – where they push improperly veiled school children back into burning schools. On principle, they’d probably willingly risk contagion to all in order to withhold the vaccine from illegals.

OOOooooh. I bet your theology is fascinating. I’m secular myself, but I follow the power of goodness.

I don’t, but I’m sure there is one out there somewhere.

Has anyone looked at how much the healthcare bill would save if it actually treated “illegals” but excluded Republicans. If Republicans want healthcare they would have to prove their loyalty to country over loyalty to party. Most of today’s Republicans skirt the line of sedition if not crossing it outright so let them buy expensive private health insurance from their accomplices in the criminal insurance industry.

LOL! Good one…

Many illegals pay various taxes into the system for which they do not receive any benefits. Others work for low wages which increase industry profits and acts as a subsidy for those who buy the products or use the services based on their work.

From a public health point of view, i.e. a real world perspective, this is just nuts too. An illegal does not receive timely care for an injury or disease and then gets dumped at an ER where much more extensive and much more expensive treatment are required. Those higher costs get passed on to us. Or is Joe Wilson saying that we need a passport to get seen at an ER? And if we don’t have one, we will get turned away? The irony would be for Joe Wilson to be out taking a walk one day without his wallet, get struck while crossing an intersection, and then be denied care because he had no proof of identity.

Or take another hypothetical. An illegal doing yard work handles some dead crows in the process of disposing of them. A few days later he starts to feel sick. Some of the illegals with whom he lives try to take care of him before they go off to jobs in the hotel and restaurant industries. Soon the man is so sick that they decide to take him and leave him at an inner city ER. But the man hacking and coughing dies soon after his arrival. His friends too begin to feel ill and shortly thereafter those who ate where they work start to exhibit symptoms and cases of a mysterious but deadly flu begin to show up in other parts of the country spread by travellers who stayed at hotels where the dead man’s friends worked. It is eventually determined that the man died of H1N1 avian flu contracted from his contact with the dead crows, but by that time a pandemic is in full swing. But that’s OK, because at least Joe Wilson who doesn’t know jack about medicine was able to keep illegals from going to see a doctor when they needed to.

Well if you believe the media, all those centrist moderate independents are worried. We all remember Obama’s slogan..

“Change… Eventually… I Guess… Whatever bros, just vote for me, I’m not Republican… “

I owe you a coke for my #51.

LOL

Every other industrialized country has single-payer, following the model that British Conservative Prime Minister Winston Churchill initiated six decades ago; Canada, Britain, France, all of the Scandinavian countries, etc., have single-payer systems. It is more efficient than ours, as shown by their longer life expectancies, because they get care all their lives, whether employed or not. They do not follow our example of letting private businesses profit from insuring only the well and dropping the sick–or raising their co-pays so high that no one can afford them–thus forcing people to seek their care, often too late, at the emergency room. We spend more on health care per individual than any other country because of the massive amounts of paper physicians and hospitals must submit until they get reimbursed. Instead of spending their time and resources on the practice of medicine, they must use them to get reimbursed by companies who work equally as hard to deny payment for legitimate claims. In my opinion, it is unethical and un-American to profit from the illness of your customers. The only ethical way to stop this is to move to a single-payer system–that is, all of us employing our government to manage our health care whether or not it makes a profit.

I think its important to define our terms here. These countries have single payer combined with at least partially socialized medicine, which is fundamentally different than Medicare-for-all. Their systems work because of the direct role played by their governments in regulating costs and service quality at healthcare providers and, in some cases, at pharmacos… not totally in some cases, but with enough of an impact. What they don’t do is to somehow expect that a public insurance system like Medicare will somehow miraculously work with a totally private medical system.. which I still believe is a recipe for total disaster (as, from a fiscal perspective, Medicare already is, in terms of its ability or lack thereof to reduce cost-explosion at healthcare providers). If we want single payer, we have to have government run or subsidized or at least highly regualted hospitals, clinics, health centers, etc. This is not what the current bill is about (althoug S.703 does have some pieces of that). I think it would be disasterous to go beyond the Strong PO without getting into these wider discussions about industry regulation.

So someone’s going to come in, maybe with tuberculosis, and we’re going to say, “Prove you’re a citizen or get out.” Are we nuts?

People have the right to refuse medical care – it is hard to believe they do not also have the right to refuse to pay for health insurance. This mandate is unconstitutional. It is a “taking” from the pockets of citizens directly to the pockets of corporations. Any “tax” imposed as a penalty for not having health insurance is not really a tax, it is a punishment, and is in reality a fine imposed without due process.

Republicans, baggers, birthers and deathers are certainly nuts. Their friends in the corporate media gives legitimacy to the terminally bewildered.

no.. rethugs have no problems jailng and then torturing such a person… like the poor Russian emigre in Arizona who contracted TB but failed to comply with a monitoring order, was imprisoned by Maricopa County Torturer Arpaio in solitary under Gitmo-like conditions for a year, and finally managed to escape from a guarded hospital room and flee the country back to his homeland… only to have rethug Arpaio do an Inspector Javert and actually try to extradite him back to the US from Russia in order to throw him back into an American jail for daring to impugn the credibility of the Maricopa County torture-sheriff. rethugs have no problems wasting taxpayer funds on their authoritarian healthcare fantasies… only on providing care that people actually need.

http://www.bloggernews.net/110925

*sigh* I thought we already had this discussion…

no he’s not…

but hey, keep telling yourself what you like to hear. fantasy is SO much more entertaining than reality.

joe wilson and his 4 sons get government-run healthcare through tricare. they have veteran’s healthcare, while joe wilson has voted against it 11 times n the past 8 years.
http://blog.newsweek.com/blogs…..crite.aspx

There was no way that Rahm wanted Howard Dean in the Obama administration pushing for single payer or at least single payer as a starting point. Public option as the compromise.

No it had to be the Insurance companies writing the legislation. Howard Dean would have gotten in Rahm’s way CCChhing!

these are the times that try men’s souls, or so the story goes. We live in a land run by corruption. We face it and allow them to continue, or we end it. The morons that believe private enterprise is better for those “Big” things have nothing to base it on except their greed. Private Police? Works out great. Fire? Sure, if you haven’t pissed off the owner of the company, they might put out your fire. Private military? Sure, Blackwater and Pinkerton’s are great examples. Murdered Inc.
The Greed has won those select folks over to it’s side. They must truly believe that the amount of bread will make the shit sandwich taste better. But as another old saying goes, if you rule unjustly, you have plenty of people waiting to take you down. Some for the job itself because they liked your style and wanted it, some for your actions against them. These folks have no friends, they can’t afford friends. It gets in the way of the money.
There is no choice but to nationalize numerous “private” institutions of our country. The longer we wait, the less chance of saving the institutions at all. The Greed will scream at you for suggesting the possibility of a dialog about setting the terms for a potential meeting that everyone will have to agree on our side about so we will get back to you. The longer we wait, the longer the two opposing forces will have to entrench, or to move. People in our country are clearly not collectively very aware. Do people that live where no food is produced have any idea of what will happen if their supply is cut off? Do 95% of the people ignore that their life is not sustainable the way things are?
I wonder what part of the country is worth saving if it suffers a major disaster? New Orleans wasn’t. There is no substantial National Guard presence in any state to help with emergencies. They are off fighting to become policemen in Iraq or Afghanistan. The governor’s recently told the feds to go to hell about their state guard being under the army’s control and not the governor. Posse Comitatus may not be required if the army wins the argument.

I see MrCleaveland is relying on his impeccable reputation to back up his accusation that Obama is lying. Wise move, since the facts weren’t going to help his argument much.

mrcleaveland is, i fear, a troll.

-sigh-.

poor dude thinks he’s dealing with noobs. Well, we are aware of ALL internet traditions.

Truer words were never spoken.

The Congress is back in session and doing the dirty work for the Medical Industrial Complex.

mcconnell $3.3M, hatch $2.9M, baucus $2.8M, grassley $2.7M,
lieberman $2.6M, burr $2.4M, ensign $2.4M, cornyn $2.2M, kyl $2.1M,
conrad $2.1M, cantor $1.8M boehner $1.7M, coburn $1.2M, j wilson 800K
were paid by the Medical Industrial Complex to kill Health Care Reform.

Citizens for Tax Justice pointed this out. The tax legislation enacted under President George W. Bush from 2001 through 2006 will cost $2.48 trillion over the 2001-2010 period. This includes the revenue loss of $2.11 trillion that results directly from the Bush tax cuts as well as the $379 billion in additional interest payments on the national debt that we must make since the tax cuts were deficit-financed. Over the upcoming decade (2010-2019), the costs of the health care proposals approved by three committees in the U.S. House of Representatives are projected to be around $1 trillion and deficit neutral(that means they’re paid for). In 2010, when all the Bush tax cuts are finally phased in, a staggering 52.5 percent of the benefits will go to the richest 5 percent of taxpayers. The Bush tax cuts were deficit-financed, which increased the national debt and resulted in greater interest payments on that debt. They never even tried to pay for their tax-cuts. So, for the price of bush’s tax-cuts for the wealthiest 5%, we could have had Health Care for every American. Instead Americans got bupkus and cheney/bush’s republican buddies got filthy rich off of the Blood Money from No-Bid, Cost-Plus Federal Contracts.

12 Million Americans were denied Health Care Coverage by the Medical Industrial Complex because they had a Pre-Existing Medical Condition. 12K Americans lose Insurance Coverage everyday. Over 18K Americans die each day because they lack health insurance. (Source: WaPo Article 05′ by Harvard Prof. E. Warren)

Follow the Money: Link

Call Congress and demand, Single-Payer Health Care for All!

Sign Single-Payer Petition: Link

Don’t let the Medical Industrial Complex steal your Health Care from you and your family by donating huge sums of money to Crooked Politicians in order to maintain the Status Quo. Keep up the good fight.

SEMPER FI!

MrCleaveland..what part of the Bill (that hasn’t even left the House or been debated or been passed or even signed into law) have you read that convinces you that Obama is lying…? or did Rush, Glenn or Sean tell you to think that..(because you can’t read or comprehend?)….why don’t you just come out and say what you really think..”Obama, you are black, go back to Africa!” (after all, this is a White Nation..we stole it away from the American Indians,(had to kill a great many of them, trick, starve and force them onto reservations) but we won, fair and square!)