I never thougth that being in error was the equivalent of a lie.

Then, to the topic at hand, First of all, Hugh is wrong in saying that there would be no change – there would be a change in the removal of the ability of the insurane companies to weed out pre-existing conditions, the insurance companies would increase their charges even more. Thus Health Insurance would be more expensive and thus ultimately less available. While the other issues you mention are true, you miss the point that the primary reason to reform health care is to make it available – preferably for all.

So, we would be left with less availble (based on cost) insurance for those who can’t afford it now or an incredible wind-fall for insurance companies (via mandated insurance purchases which would in all likelihood be under subsidized).

Most likely we would wind up with both since tis option does nothing to drive down costs and the government can’t pay for the insurance required for 50 million people at current rates, much less the increased rates. If we don’t fix the access problem, all the reswt is euyecandy and not worth a warm bucket of spit.

Who says we don’t have socialism.

Cheers,

Bradford

I’m all for killing off healthcare reform this year because there is no health, care, or reform in it. This is an insurance bill plain and simple and a bad deal for ordinary Americans.

You’re smarter and better informed than to say such a silly thing.

There’s more money for doctors & nurses and there’s gov’t research into what treatments work best and the mandates plus public option and the no-pre-conditions language gets more people insurance which means health care for them and there’s IT money to make the health care industry work better which means fewer mistakes with care.

Say there’s no health CARE change and you lie.

Without it all this talk of third parties or taking over the Democrats is just talk. You’re just Obama’s doormat. The guy is practically sneering at you; daring you to speak out of turn. “What you gonna do about it pwoggie? Nothing.”

very well stated! I’ve been trying to make the same point here for years, but I am not nearly so avuncular about it.

and postmodernprimate lays it out well – outside the relatively small confines of the Democratic Party captured progressive blogosphere there are plenty of folks who voted for Obama who were disaffected (R)’s, skeptical (I)’s
on the fence Post-Democrats, and electoral non-participants who will have no problem going back where they came from once the realize they were conned.

most people don’t have this deep psychological investiture with the Blue Donkey, and can easily just walk.

That’s why the Overton window is so important — and why the betrayal of single payer was not just bad policy, but politically brain dead as well.

The amazing thing is how much democrats have given up even the pretense of defending the ideals they were elected on. It’s not like progressives have been pushy about the legislative agenda. Criminal banks were bailed out and empowered, civil rights were ignored, gays got nothing, government secrecy was defended, past crimes were enabled, etc… and progressives held their nose because Obama was saving his political capital for health care. That’s why for most of us “Single Payer” is the last straw. If not this, then what? And when? I don’t think Obama/Rahm/Dems fully understand the kind of blowback coming their way for lifting aspirations so high just to rip them to shreds. “Rip them to shreds” doesn’t even come close to conveying it. It’s far, far worse than that. They’re attacking their entire voting base for being dumb enough to trust them.

http://www.openleft.com/diary/…..-president

I suppose he knows his stuff and that’s the problem; the progressives are simply too weak to ever do anything but submit to Obama and the Blue Dogs. They have no fight in them.

But how could it be any other way? All those saying they’re done with the Democrats if (as seems likely) Obama drops the public option will crawl back on their bellies in 2012 under the threat of president Palin or another chance for the Republicans to stuff the Supreme Court with a right wing nut.

I’m going to record video in the future, even if all I want is audio because the voice memo blows major chunks.

i completely agree with not giving an inch on the public option,s o please don’t view this suggestion as a retreat.

however, if they are going to propose this trigger idea i feel that we should point out that triggers without teeth always fail.

one example of teeth might be linking health insurance CEO and CFO bonuses directly to specific benchmark. negative progress against benchmarks (the most likely scenario) means no bonuses. if the CEO’s and their boards can’t agree to this which they won’t, it makes it pretty clear to everyone that triggers are bogus.

Either way you have to establish a brand name within the Democratic party first and get a lot of people to identify with that brand name to the extent that they have more loyalty to that brand name than they do to the Democratic party as a whole. ie so they will, as with this case before us, vote to derail the Democratic party sooner than back down on their own policies or their own group’s negotiated positions.

Without such an identity you are not going to do either one.

And frankly with that identity you may not have to do either one.

The main problem I see with trying to get such a group going is that the progressives are simply unwilling to bring down the Democrats if they don’t get their way. They just won’t do it. I see more and more people on these boards and throughout the blogosphere saying they will do it but they won’t. Come 2012 they will vote Democrat regardless of any deals or threats that their leaders will have negotiated. And it seems that the assumption in the White House is that the progressive congressmen will be similarly cowardly.

It’s quite simple. If the group doesn’t have the balls to face down Obama and the rest of the Democratic leadership — and that means letting the Republicans into power in 2012 — then you will always be their doormat. And I just don’t see it happening.

That’s what you need. Some iron in your spines. Without it all this talk of third parties or taking over the Democrats is just talk. You’re just Obama’s doormat. The guy is practically sneering at you; daring you to speak out of turn. “What you gonna do about it pwoggie? Nothing.”