what do red staters like us do? my choice is between a rabid blue dog and a nasty republican.

wtf?

wtf??

do they NOT see that a defeat on a public option is going to destroy Obama’s first (and probably only) term? do they not see that forcing people to buy insurance, with no cost control like the PO, is going to get them slaughtered at the polls?

fools.

Right! Nancy pelosi issued a flat statement on the PO again today. Andrea Mitchell and some other MSM twat , david gregory i think, were like (whats her problem? where is the discipline?”…the thing is, best descision or not, this is the strategy WE HAVE and we have to follow through INCLUDING all the work it will take to “discipline” any cowards in congress who betray us. and why havent we been working the senate also? If it comes down to killing a bad bill, and it probably will, we only need a hndful in the senate.

Exasperating, isn’t it? There is some white hot burning stupid going on here.

It’s a war. Let’s treat it like one.

The enemy is this administration and all of the workers in the health-insurance industry…not just the CEOs, but the lowly workers, too.

promising

In less than a day, more than 200 former Obama staffers, 13,000 Obama volunteers, and 23,000 Obama donors have signed a Progressive Change Committee petition saying that a bill without a public option “would not be change we can believe in

I was at Anna Eshoo’s (CA-14, PVI D+21) town hall meeting in Ben Lomond, CA last night. She seemed to say she couldn’t see a bill passing without a public option. I’ve got a voice recording I’ll try to transcribe soon.

Look at these districts — 17 Dems with at least a D+20 rating who are in no danger of losing to a republican challenger in 2010:

Rangel, Charles NY-15 D+41
Meeks, Gregory W. NY-06 D+36
Brady, Robert PA-01 D+35
Davis, Danny IL-07 D+35
Meek, Kendrick FL-17 D+34
Rush, Bobby IL-01 D+34
Becerra, Xavier CA-31 D+29
Lewis, John GA-05 D+26
Jackson-Lee, Sheila TX-18 D+24
Berman, Howard CA-28 D+23
Cohen, Steve TN-09 D+23
Green, Al TX-09 D+22
Van Hollen, Chris MD-08 D+21
Eshoo, Anna CA-14 D+21
DeGette, Diane CO-01 D+21
Scott, Bobby VA-03 D+20
Schakowsky, Jan IL-09 D+20

As Jane put it almost two weeks ago:

These members aren’t in any danger from the teabaggers. So why aren’t they making a stand for the interests of their districts? Why aren’t they cosigning the letter to Kathleen Sibelius with 60 of their fellow Democrats, saying they will vote “no” against any bill that does not have a strong public option?

Why are they not willing to stand up for what 70+% of the American people want? Maybe one more phone call will shake them loose from whatever is holding them back . . .

Jane’s prescient stategy of seeking pledges from progressives in Congress was–and still is–brilliant. Thank goodness we’ve got her on our side.

In super slo-mo, the thick, heavy steel of the colliding locomotives wrinkles like aluminum foil . . .

(Again, sorry. Just can’t help it.)

I grew up in a family of hardcore democrats. In fact, my father and his brother don’t get along primarily because of the extreme differences in their political views. I have voted democratic in every election EXCEPT 1996, when i voted for Nader. Why? Because Clinton didn’t deliver. For that matter my dad voted for democrats in every election except 1980 when he reluctantly voted for Reagan. Same deal.

Every year since, i have voted Democratic on the national stage and third party on the state/local stage unless the Democrat had proved his mettle and worth.

But since 2006, i have grown so deeply disaffected from this worn-out, corrupt, and entirely incompetent party that has lost sight of its goals, forgotten how to govern, and has dropped out of touch with the people it is supposed to represent.

if we don’t get the health care we’ve been promised since fucking Truman, with the majorities we have, then I really AM taking my ball and going home. And not only that: I’m gonna take as many of these frauds down with me as i can. Chaka fattah’s office HATES ME these days. Why? Because I wrote a scathing article about Chaka Fattah, provided his number and told my readers not call him and to say i told them to. two weeks ago i called up, a woman recognized my name and began screaming at me that I had been berating her for weeksk. I hadn’t called in a month, at least.

Fuck it: what is the point of supporting a party that doesn’t do what it’s supposed to do? It’s like refusing to buy a new circular saw when the old one has missing teeth, a warped blade, and an engine that only starts on occasion.

if they can’t get this done, they are worthless.

Glad to hear that. Can’t see any way that Anna or Jackie Speier would not vote for the PO. Jackie, by the way, voted against the supplement.

Mike Elk says that it is not an abstract battle and that the progressive base goes beyond bicoastal DFHs.

There were people like Shelia Lane, a recently laid off single mother of three, who worked ten hours every day in the most mundane, inglorious of tasks making sure we elected a President who represented people like herself. There was 66-year old Wayne Hanson, an old time community organizer, who was recovering from a heart attack and would stay at the office till three in the morning making sure the plans for our massive Get Out The Vote operations were properly executed.

Their understanding of how important electing Barack Obama was led people like Harmony Grogan, from Texas, to quit her high high-paying job as an architect and drive all the way to Crawford County, Pennsylvania to volunteer full time, without pay, to work for change.

I agree

it’s all about the benjamins. Period. Rahm is so focused on keeping corpo donations away from the rethugs he’s forgetting what the mission is. Oh, wait, that IS his mission.

I’ll be seeing Joe at a HC forum tonight, Jane. This time I’ll be channeling you channeling me channeling you. I’ll have my collar on too! and my flip video ready to go.

I havent been this optimistic about the potential FOR REAL PROGRESSIVE CHANGE in a long time. The hard right is road kill, this is a fight for the leadership of the party and alothough we have to link arms on this vote, the work is just beginning. The Obama campaign lit a fuse so i guess we should be grateful for that, but we have to carry this forward. The old warped, bigotted republican right are dying off. This is the future

Not so much keeping it away from repthugs as making sure the corpora-dems get it.

Chump change we can believe in.

Rahm is focused on them, but since when do folks like Charlie Rangel and John Lewis take direction from Rahm?

“it’s all about the benjamins. Period. Rahm is so focused on keeping corpo donations away from the rethugs he’s forgetting what the mission is. Oh, wait, that IS his mission.”

Bull’s Eye.

one and the same afaik.

Six-a-one, half-a-dozen the other.

I’ll toss that question back to you . . . .

I think Meek is giving up his seat and running for the Senate (Mel Martinez’s old seat with the Governor Crist placeholder in there at the moment).

If we get rolled, Obama and the Dems are finished! If he doesn’t come out strong for a no trigger public option on Wednesday, his numbers will really tumble along with all the Dems who are part of blocking this! They don’t seem to understand that we’re willing to hold firm with Progressives and Liberals even if it means getting NOTHING! It’s really that important!

So someone tell me why Steny isn’t being harassed to death on this? His district has to be dark blue. The only danger he’s in is the same danger Al Wynn was in but didn’t know it. Yet no one harangues him.

it is a subtle difference, one that i think suggests that their goals arent really any different. They are rivals, not enemies.

Perhaps some NYers and GAers will toss that question at Charlie and John.

Unreal. Totally unfucking real.

A few thousand (at most) make a lot of noise, the MSM plays it up to the hilt, and now a policy that is STILL APPROVED OF BY A VAST MAJORITY (irregardless of that tiny, tiny, tiny, albeit loud minority over August that made the noise) and now, it’s CW no public option.

This shows there never really was one, OR, it shows the power that the MSM has. I’d actually prefer the first scenario over the second. Because that would mean the cynic in me is right, all these guys are just paid corporate whores, it’s all just a game, elections mean nothing, the system is rigged.

The second option would mean there really are folks that mean well, that the system really does work, but that the MSM is so fucking in charge that they can distort that system.

Nope, I like the cynical option better.

Fuck em all. Democrats, at ALL LEVELS, have gotten my (and my family’s, that’s the great part, we’re all in agreement) LAST VOTE.

Of course they don’t care, since the system is probably rigged. Hell you know what, maybe even those damned numbers we see on TV election nights are just fucking numbers randomly generated by those contractor election system computers.

Goddammit. Goddammit. Goddammit.

Re: Schakowsky, just saw this article at TPM. She sounds pretty definite. I don’t know why she hasn’t gotten on board with the pledge. Maybe she still thought there was something to negotiate.

HUGE health industry in Baltimore. Md is really only blue because of Baltimore and DC. outside of the large minority communities in those cities, its the same as redneck virginia.the douche bag in the bob dylan song that killed Hattie Carrol? that guy was from MD. John wilkes booth was from Maryland. Adlai stevenson
so was Frederick Douglas…before he escaped from slavery.

Yes.

My guess is that he’s afraid of alienating seniors who’ve bought into the “death panels” idea, or who want government to keep their hands off of Medicare.

*sigh*

But you know . . .

Running as a challenger for the Senate is soooo much more expensive than running for reelection in a safe House seat. If FL callers want to point out to him that progressives have rewarded those who stood up for the public option with over $400K in donations, that might get his attention.

My question is who is going to push this terrible bill over the finishline. Drop the public option, drop universal quality insurance who is going to call their congress person? It will be cap and trade times 10. I suspect calls will be 100 to 1 against reform.

The public is still on board. Why isn’t Congress? And are weak-kneed Democrats prepared to have the Democratic base defeat them?

Research 2000: Public Option Still Polling Strongly

Steny is also standing up for/beholden to (take your pick) his Blue Dog pals. He’s more afraid of becoming the minority leader than his own district’s voters.

There is little more politically corrupt or morally bankrupt than sacrificing what is arguably one of the greatest civil/human rights issues in America today for adoption of the cynical standard of what someone perceives as their potential for re-election. Health care issues can be summed up, as we have all heard, to be either a human right or, simply, a commodity to be purchased, in varying degrees, by those fortunate enough by accidents of birth or by the benefits sometimes available through hard work and good fortune in the marketplace of our capitalist sytem. For those politicians choosing to believe the latter, it is utter deception to represent the conflict as one of “we haven’t got the votes” or “it simply costs too much” or any of the myriad other false stances taken. It’s time for these folks of limited intestinal fortitude to “man up” as they say and state their true belief. Human Right or Commodity?

That’s why Jane’s concentrating on the self-alleged ‘progressives’ in safe seats.

“They are rivals, not enemies.”

Interesting distinction. I’ll chew on that one for awhile..

“There will not be a bill that passes in the Congress, in the House of Representatives without the public option.”

Rough Transcription of Anna Eshoo’s remarks 9/3/2009 7:47 PM

(If I use quotes it means I’ve provided an exact transcription, cell phone voice recorder is not optimal for good sound quality).

I believe in competition. One of the major reasons for best ways to bring prices down is to create competition to the private sector. In order to bring prices down. People want to enroll in the public option if it costs less, and maybe people won’t, I mean if you’re happy with what you’ve got you get to keep it and if no one enrolls in the public option it won’t exist.

Whether or not a public option stands or falls we don’t think that it will fail; i don’t think it will fail. A lot of the private insurers don’t want the public option

“There will not be a bill that passes in the Congress, in the House of Representatives without the public option.”

I asked her about biosimilars, an amendment that she added to HR3200 giving 12 years of patent exclusivity for medically active biological agents.

She answered admirably – explaining for the roughly 240 people what the question was about (it is pretty wonky stuff), saying that current law gives exclusivity with an infinite time horizon, that Waxman wanted 7 years, Teddy Kennedy put 12 years in senate HELP committee bill, she followed Teddy’s lead. That 12 years is enough time to recoup R&D and FDA costs, biogeneric manufacturers can begin getting their processes ready before exclusivity ends, we don’t want this R&D going offshore and shorter exclusivity period would lead to foreign R&D….

I’m so with you. I switched my registration to green after Gore let the election get stolen (but I voted for Nader too). I vote for the Greens locally and vote my concience upticket. Democrats don’t get it. Period.

OFG, your completely right of course about the system being rigged, and maybe our corrupt system of politcal patronage is an even more pressing problem with health care, if it prevents any effective reform. But dont leave the movement. We are not alone, and we outnumber them This is only the beggining. A few years ago, last year even we wouldnt even be having this argument.When the dust settles, the MSM who is ignoring and deriding us now,will turn on Obama, and the full story of the HC battle willbe leaked. The fight is just beggining.

This isnt an idealogical struggle it is a class struggle. Rahm, above all else, is loyal to his class.

Now you guys know how we conservatives felt when Bush was signing the Medicare drug bill and the bloated farm bill and the bloated highway bill and the unconstitutional McCain-Feingold bill and generally betraying us.

I didn’t attempt to keep minutes of the town hall.

Format was good – questions were in writing, Anna read the question for the audience and answered. This meant no filibustering. Wingnuts weren’t deep on the ground, of the 240 people present I’d say maybe 15 were wingnuts.

Wingnut questions were answered respectfully. Anna got a lot of applause for her handling of a question from a lady that had a heart valve replacement and possibly could need another; would Medicare pay or would she just be left to die (paraphrase).

Anna’s response was she is strengthening Medicare, that of course she could get a second valve replacement if it was needed. And then she pivoted and went after death panels, saying this was the most despicable fear mongering she’d ever seen in her career. At which point the sane part of the audience gave her vary strong applause.

Wingnuts tried to shout over her answering questions about 3 times. The crowd wasn’t having it and someone asked the wingnut to “just shut up”. Anna said that in her household “Shut up” was one of the worst things anyone ever could say, and she respected the amount of passion this issue brings out and she was here to listen as well as answer. The most disruptive wingnut walked out about 45 seconds later.

I’m getting motion sick from all the rolling. I feel like a hamster in a plastic ball.

“There will not be a bill that passes in the Congress, in the House of Representatives without the public option.” – Anna Eshoo, Ben Lomond town hall, approximately 7:48 PM 9/3/2009

It isn’t signing the progressive caucus letter (She didn’t get to me asking her about HR676 or pledging to vote against a bill without a public option).

It comes pretty close to saying she’s drawn a line in the sand.

WHOO HOOO!! Sorry it has come to this. But if the Administration wants a fight, by golly, they’ll get one. I’m in!! And it ain’t gonna be pretty!

Problem is Meek is a fake progressive. The local parties are following the Party line and they’re all DLC supporters. We have a good chance at defeating Bill Young (R, FL-10) with state senator Charlie Justice. If Charlie was a new face the local party apparatus wouldn’t support him, they’d support Young like they have for the past 38 years. It’s all about the money.

Need help in Oregon
David Wu-Needs to sign progressive letter, he is for a public option, but hasn’t committed to getting on board with progressives. Phone: (202) 225-0855

Scrader..not sure where he stands Phone: (202) 225-5711

Earl Blumenauer-yes
Peter Defazio-yes

Greg Walden-obviously from the party of no.

why not go on the offensive NOW? This shouldn’t be about whether progressives get politicians to block a bill without a public option — it should be about Obama and the Blue Dogs selling out to the health care parasites.

Obama isn’t going to take the progressive “threat” seriously until he has to — and unless progressives start pointing out how Obama sold out to the parasites, Obama can ignore us.

Its all about the Overton window — where does the discussion take place? Because “access progressives” decided that cocktail parties were more important than principle, they remained silent when single payer advocates were denied a place in the health care reform discussion by Obama and the Blue Dogs that Obama chose to ‘negotiate’ the bill. That failure made the “public option” the “far left” position — and now the left needs to find a new “far left” position to move the Overton Window back.

That means going directly after Obama for lying about being about “change” and for being a “corporate” Democrat — and doing it NOW. We’ve got more than enough ammunition, and the best time to use it is now.

Progressives need to decide whether they are simply the left wing of the Democratic Party, or if they stand for something besides “electing more Democrats”.

From TPMDC:

White House ally Tom Daschle wrote in the Wall Street Journal “should Republican intransigence continue, [Democrats] must focus on the budgetary implications of health reform and use the Senate rules of budget reconciliation to allow a health-care bill [to] move with majority support. The choice between complete legislative failure and majority rule should not pose a dilemma for any Democratic senator.”

That’s an important tell.

Given his closeness to the president and the importance of the reconciliation option, it seems unlikely Daschle would significantly out of step with Obama’s thinking on this issue.

- Tom

I never said anything about leaving the movement, I’ll fight for what’s right until I conk.

But it’s clear to me that our answers do not lie in the Democratic party.

If you can’t do the right thing with massive, MASSIVE majorities in BOTH HOUSES and the Presidency, then you can’t do the right thing, period. And I have no desire to support a party that doesn’t do the right thing.

I’ve never been about the party anyway. I’d vote for a Republican if he advocated for (and backed it up with his vote) for single payer. In a heartbeat.

I just emailed both Webb and Warner (my two Senators) again to re-iterate the pledge I made a month or so ago (my Rep is Frank Wolf-R, no hopes there) that me and my family are going to not just not vote for them in their re-elect years, but we are going to vote for whoever the Republican is on the ticket.

And we mean it. Even if it’s the most conservative asshole the R’s have ever run. Informing them of withholding our votes already seems trivial, given the numbers. At least we DOUBLE that impact when we not only withhold our votes from them, we give them to the Republican.

I’m not going to vote for any other Republicans, and in the Presidential will turn green I guess (depending on the layout in 2012), but I(we) have pledged to vote for Webb and Warner’s republican opponent in their reelect years (2012 & 2014). And we’re sticking by it.

My new bumper sticker

NO OPTION
NO OBAMA

In all that has been going on I wanted to confirm that my representative’s pledge to vote against any bill that does not contain a public option was still operative. I just got off the phone with Congressman Blumenauer’s office in DC. The person I talked to said it is still the Congressman’s position to vote against any bill, through conference, that does not contain a public option.

I also asked about Congressman Blumenauer’s position on triggers. This person did not know the Congressman’s position. He said that since it was such a new concept the Congressman had not put out a statement.

seems to me like this president is going to fracture our party

shame, we finally got the team together

this is funny in a sad way, this could have meant the fall of the republican party, now it looks like the fall of the democratic party

good riddance if we get a democratic president who acts on behalf of republicans

yup

Let me offer a suggestion based on this ” On Thursday, Woolsey and fellow Progressive Caucus co-chair Raul M. Grijalva, sent a letter to Obama threatening to withhold support for his health care agenda. They said the bill would only win their support if it includes a public option, reverses a deal Democratic leaders struck with fiscally conservative Blue Dog Democrats to reimburse providers through negotiated, rather than fixed, rates and creates the public insurance plan immediately, rather than through a staggered trigger mechanism.

“Any bill that does not provide, at a minimum, a public option built on the Medicare provider system and with reimbursement based on Medicare rates-not negotiated rates-is unacceptable,” they wrote. “

Call -as I did- or fax Rep. Woolsey’s office ( Ph.: 202-225-5161
Fax: 202-225-5163 ) and Rep. Grijalva’s office ( ph (202) 225-2435
fax (202) 225-1541) , identify yourself as a non-constituent and what party -I’m an ‘independent’- affiliation you are with and let them know you strongly support their stance and want them to stick to it.

DON’T let Rahm and Obama twist their arms about the public option. !!!!

Ding fuckin’ dong.

um, no, i don’t.

Your baaaaaaa-by doesn’t love yooooouuuu
anymore . . .

Done. Woolsey’s my critter, so hopefully it meant a bit more…

Regarding those California Reps–hit them with the developing story of claims rejection of up to 40%, and opening investigation into those rates. This should be a major scandal in CA. I’ve got a post up on it at seminal.

I’ve just sent the links to my Rep, Doggett.

That would be great — can you send me an audio clip?

That is an excellent idea. Do you have a good link?

Can’t really help out physically, so I couldn’t click on the first option to help out, so I just donated dollars to the cause above.

I’m on disability, and really can’t afford it, but dammit maybe Jane and the others can pull victory from the jaws.

Nobody else can.

Give ‘em hell Jane.

Now you guys know how we conservatives felt when Bush was signing the Medicare drug bill and the bloated farm bill and the bloated highway bill and the unconstitutional McCain-Feingold bill and generally betraying us.

///////////////////

um, no, i don’t.

Yeah, I guess not. You folks have waaaaaay more faith in politicians than we do.

I got to the town hall quite early, was talking with a State Democratic party delegate. She told me that Diane Feinstein wants “stories” about health care. I don’t have her fax and phone numbers handy, but they certainly can be found at FDL.

Sure. I’ll upload in a bit. Where should I send it?

“There will not be a bill that passes in the Congress, in the House of Representatives without the public option.” Anna Eshoo 9/3/2009 Ben Lomond town hall meeting

Done. Rep. Grijalva’s aid was quite nice by the way, and very positive about the public option

This is just the skirmishers making first contact. Loud and scary but the real fight hasn’t begun yet. Make your resources give you full bang for the buck, wait until you can see where they might do well and use sparingly but with the most effect you can make.

Never. Give. Up.

AND THE KILLIN’ GOEZ ON AND ON AND…

Citizen Hamsher and the Firepup Freedom Fighters:

If the “progressives” in the House get a dose of testosterone and stand firm, then this can only end well for the people and for the Democratic Party…if they cave in then Obama becomes a one term President and the Democratic Party changes before our very eyes. This will NOT end well for the corporatists in the Democratic Party or for the people of the country in the short run if the public option fails…but if Rahm succeeds in breakin’ the Democrats down on this, all that is gunna happen is that he joins the Likud Party in Israel in 2012 and the Democrats will carry Congress.

KEEP THE FAITH AND PASS THE AMMUNITION, THIS IS OUR WAR NOW!!

Our campaign is to work on progressive members of the House and force them to block it. Which so far is working. It may not satisfy your personal desire to unleash a tsunami of hatred on a president who would only use it to Sista Souljah us, but as usual, stopping a bad bill doesn’t appear to be your main objective, so I guess we’ll just have to admit that our goals are different.

firedoglake AT gmail DOT com

Thanks!

There are a lot of ugly implications to what Obama is doing here. Fortunately,so far, The civil rights movement and the Black Caucus is not buyng it. They have seen the fruits collaborationism, their whole experience has been an all or none reality, and they wouldnt have made it as far as they have, if they had sold out the bottom so some could live high at the top. There is NO credibility to the “argument” that we need something now, we’ll get the rest later. A basic understanding of how the monopoly class has waged 24/7 ,non stop class warfare for 3 centuries on the rest of us indicates that is just one more divide and destroy tactic.The goal of “moderate” dems like “thrid way” and other “moderate” organizations is to peel away the middle class from the working class, to divide us along lines of economic self ineterest. I am ASHAMED of collaborationist hacks who are spewing this line. It is a lie.

Isn’t there some way we can get this son of a bitch into Likud by 2010, better yet, yesterday?

Franken, confronted by teabaggers, mentions Switzerland-style health care at the state fair:

http://www.dustytrice.com/?p=6421

- Tom

Citizen SouthernDragon:

BOOOya…and leave nothin’ back at the base camp!! This fight is NOT over and it may be the only way we get a lean and mean People’s Democratic Party!!!

This has to shift focus from no PO no bill, to no PO, and MANDATES = no bill. they are trying to kill us for being “unreasonable” “liberal” whackos, and i havent heard ONE SINGLE MSM story on the plan to force us to buy junk private insurance policies.

In June 1968 I was in DC, my hometown, with my new bride, on our honeymoon. I was on leave from Viet Nam. We spent a great deal of time with the folks at Resurrection City and were there when the heat cracked down. For me, the struggle has never ended.

You should have it now.

It is raw audio from a Palm Centro voice memo recorder. I’m looking into ow to open it, MacOS 10.4 isn’t recognizing it as a native audio format… I may end up converting it into another format and re sending.

People’s Democratic Party

Oh, lordy, yer gonna give the trolls a coronary. ROFLMAO

If the barely literate, or perhaps overly literate members of speech writing teams would dumb it down a bit, and actually present a plan, wouldn’t we be a lot more in a position to compare, to argue for and against?

We have no plan, there is nothing on paper. My rep said there is no plan at all, so why are we all arguing about something that doesn’t yet exist?

The, excuse my expression, “dungbrains” that make up the President’s cabinet are speaking for him, then we are going to have to help convince the president that they are costing him any further credibility. He has lost most of it now. The Chicago machine is more important to these people than the people that voted for him.

It is too bad the president hasn’t even bothered to put a plan out there. Just the nebulous idea of one so that it can be attacked for everything from being to light to to heavy, by pundits that don’t know any more about it than the people yet to write it.

That is what we are fighting for, nothing. There isn’t anything written, so there is no bill. Everyone except “the people” are happy.

ONE SINGLE MSM story on the plan to force us to buy junk private insurance policies. Solerso@79

Aint this the Present we get for paying for every little dalliance the movers and shakers get wrong

Here’s brief story with several links posted up at a site.

And this is not blog-whoring, because you asked.

the swiss health insurance system sucks

Looks like it’s time for me to remove my Obama bumper sticker.

Citizen lukasiak:

What the fuck does all that fire and brimstone “Overton window” bullshit mean anyway…the fact is we are down to a fight for the direction of politics in this country and there is NUTHIN’ in the long run that’s gunna benefit the corporatists or their bosses…listen to me again: there is NUTHIN’ at the end of this fight that benefits the corporate oligarchy in the long run. If the progressives fail to hold against the power of the Likudniks in the Democratic leadership, then Obama becomes a 1-term President and there will be no “centerists” left in the party after 2010 other than Obama in the White House.

History is moving through each of us and all we can do is try and stay on top of the wave or end up drowned in our own shit.

thank you.

Lady across the alley from me still has her Kerry/Edwards sticker on her rear bumper.

Isnt switzerland where all of our most distinguished tax cheat -billionaires take their money to hide it? Werent they neutral during WW2 so they could hide the money looted by the nazis’s, and provide luxury spa vactions for the reichministers and SS officers?? given that the swiss system is romney care and their general hostility to progressive policy, why would American progressives get behimd that shit?

I don’t comment often today is an aberration for me, but I wanted to say I am with you, in the struggle against the monsters in the world and we are better for engaging in whatever form that takes.

I am a vet, not a war vet, but I think it qualifies to say I got your six.

Welcome to the Lake, bro. Don’t be a stranger.

I’m working to get you a more portable format. Your techies may be able to handle the raw (Base64 encoded) email attachment… give me another 15 minutes or so and I should have it in a .aiff or .au format… I probably can get it to mp3 as well.

Thank God you were willing to think critically in June and saw this coming, Jane.

techies.the “special forces” of the netroots.

Jane,

Perhaps – if this goes as it looks like it is going to go – it is time for some progressives to do what I thought impossible – to start a third party. Yesterday I would have laughed at the idea. Today, if Jane Hamsher announced that she was starting a new “Progressive” party, I would sign up and ask where I can volunteer.

Clearly FiredogLake isn’t the only organization, if Obama continues as he is, I bet there are a large number of blogs that represent groups that would climb on the band-wagon. I am thinking that the time is now, the only question is who is going to start the ball rolling.

Jane, If not you, who? and if not now, when?

Bradford

Brad

Maybe this is the fall of both parties. I didn’t use to think this way, but I think that all of Versailles is going to collapse.

I agree with you, and then i dont. there seem to be a few dozen “third” parties out there so the math dosent add up. There are firecely progressive parties and organizations we can join without giving up our ability to vote in the primaries and get candidates elected.

I’m a techie.

Responsible for the 3rd live music internet multicast back in April 1994 (Octave Doctors playing in Bloomington, IN, people listening in Melbourne, Australia among other places). Documented in Bloomington Ryder magazine, fwiw. The first live music was “Severe Tire Damage” that went out from Xerox Parc a few months prior.

Our campaign is to work on progressive members of the House and force them to block it. Which so far is working. It may not satisfy your personal desire to unleash a tsunami of hatred on a president who would only use it to Sista Souljah us, but as usual, stopping a bad bill doesn’t appear to be your main objective, so I guess we’ll just have to admit that our goals are different.

Stopping a bad bill is my goal. The difference between us is that I am not suffering from amnesia when it comes to how the media works (conflict is what gets reported, and nobody in the media gives a flying fuck whether progressives threaten Anna Eshoo or not.)

The point being that if progressives want to move the Overton window to the left, they have “go left” in a way that the media will report. That NOW means criticizing Obama for his “selling out to corporations”. (Eight months ago, it would have meant criticizing Obama for selling out on single payer — but since you and your friends decided to do that for Obama, its water under the bridge.)

I am thinking Reform Party

They are treating this like the car insurance scam except, there is an ethical, vallid argument for vehicle liability insurance, no matter how crooked the system is. remeber how this is the “LAST BITE AT THE APPLE” we are gonna get..remember that? I have a piture in my mind of Prez O, blind folded, hopping around trying to bite an apple on string that a lobbyist is dangling over his face.

GJ. thanks

I wonder how bad it has to get before our leaders, such as Jane Hamsher, really begin to think about this. My sense is that things will have to get much worse before many would even entertain the concept.

I’m still hoping that through Jane’s efforts, a bill can be blocked.

At this point, NO BILL would be a victory (and I NEVER would’ve said that two months ago).

But let’s kill the bill, end the effort for 2009.

Then, in Jan 2010, start anew. It’s an election year. Start with Single Payer on the table, evolve to a strong public option (if necessary), and then let’s see all these asshat oppose a public option in an election year when large majorities still favor the public option.

Our only hope, I think. No guarantees there either, but I don’t see any other way.

I like Reform Party too.

I’m all for killing off healthcare reform this year because there is no health, care, or reform in it. This is an insurance bill plain and simple and a bad deal for ordinary Americans.

What the fuck does all that fire and brimstone “Overton window” bullshit mean anyway…the fact is we are down to a fight for the direction of politics in this country and there is NUTHIN’ in the long run that’s gunna benefit the corporatists or their bosses…listen to me again: there is NUTHIN’ at the end of this fight that benefits the corporate oligarchy in the long run.

Actually, the corporate oligarchy is doing quite well under Obama — and as long as progressive “leaders” are more afraid of being “Sister Souljah’d” than they are with advancing progressive policies and priorities, the corporate oligarchs win.

That’s why the Overton window is so important — and why the betrayal of single payer was not just bad policy, but politically brain dead as well.

Thanks

working within D or R parties is easier than working outside. I tried independent party politics from 1991-1998 in Bloomington. Our mayoral candidate got 20%, I managed to get 11% in my run for state legislature in 1994, only 4% in 1998. Post election analysis puts the 1998 election as base line (I didn’t canvas, minimal fund raising ($400) only did one direct mail for advertising, did use all public fora available and did a good job with press relations), 1994 campaign (I did fund raising ($11K), canvassed, coordinated volunteers…).

Keeping a party going in the face of defeats is hard, people burn out.

http://www.ppp-civic.org/ Progressive party

http://www.cpusa.org/ CPUSA

http://www.sp-usa.org/ Socialist Party USA

Think very carefully of what it would take to have a real third party capable of actually affecting decisions. How long have the Greens and Libertarians been around. Heck how long have the socialists been around but there is only one socialist in Congress, and he was elected as an independent.

Even Ron Paul gave up on a Libertarian third party and is frustrated within the current Republican Party (yeah, maybe that’s a good thing).

The logistics of putting together a third party are immense in a country this large in population and geographically.

Here is how large:
50 states, 210 media market, 435 Congressional Districts, 3080 counties, 192,480 precincts

Yes I belong to a political party that i think of as my home, and remain a democrat. Believe me, i am all too aware of the failing of the dems.

I am with you and Jane is right on track with this being the way to go. A watered down bill would give some politicians something to crow about but it would be about as useful as a fig leaf on Johnny Holmes.

a peanut shell/dental floss thong

Bad to the bone

The amount of windfall profits the insurance/PhRMA industry is going to make is breath-taking, just breath-taking. It will dwarf what the oil industry made under the Bush regime.

I always wondered why Obama didn’t first break up the media monopolies before tackling ANY major reform. Without the press doing due diligence in reporting the news and the facts, it will continue to do the bidding of the republican owners. We, as a country, will continue our march to fascism. It’s almost complete.

Everything is wrong in this country. Nothing is right.

you are absolutely right–it would be a huge undertaking. but one thing present now, that was not present then, is teh intertoobes. Organizing, fundraising, much much easier and quicker now than it was.

I’m not arguing for 3rd party. just saying.

the purpose of a third party isn’t necessarily to “win elections” — its to move at least one of the existing two parties in the direction of the third party.

Right now is a really good time to start a third party on the left, because the Republicans are so far off the deep end on the right that the Democratic Party can safely move to the left. Indeed, Obama’s embrace of corporate oligarch priorities makes a third party from the left not only possible, but perhaps crucial, because unless the Dems embrace populism, the GOP will wind up ‘representing’ the populist perspective.

Somewhere out there there is another Bernie Sanders. If we start looking we might find them.

Save some of that breath, your going to need it for the struggle. Especially when you consider that the insurance industry is already 17% of our “gdp” (so called)…what will another 11 trillion dollars do for them? money taken out of our pockets

Well yes, that’s why you begin by co-opting the available machinery. The two parties have built significant obstacles for any and all other parties. Primary Democratic candidates within the Democratic party with progressives whose allegiance is not to Democrats but to progressives. Encourage current progressive members of Congress to join the movement. At some point down the road, have them declare they are joining a “new” party as a bloc. This can also be done at the local level.

As for the Presidency, if Perot had been just a little less goofy, he not Clinton would have been President in 1992. So hard, yes. Impossible, no.

I’m an independent. I’ve donated to Republicans, Democrats and independents as well as ballot measure campaigns.

I wanted Tom Campbell over DiFi and made calls and gave money to him. Campbell was arguably more liberal than DiFi, and certainly so on drug policy issues that I’ve spent a lot of my political life working to reform.

I gave to Harvey Gantt to defeat Jesse Helms.

I worked to elect Obama in 2008. Made 500 phone calls, donated, solicited donations. I had no doubts that he’d need to forced to walk the walk and felt that he showed BS talks at the time of the FISA amendments. I still worked for him because the alternative was so heinous. I also have the hope (nay faith!) that progressive organization that worked to elect him would hold him accountable. And here we are.

Keep the faith. Work. Work more. The reward for a job well done is more work to be done well, and we’re here making it happen.

We can do this.

Oh Absolutely. Im all for a draft Jane Hamsher movement. The “third” party folks have a pint, but ladies and gentlemen, run our other party candidates as independents or dems. we arent strong enough to change the rules…yet

Im thinking I havent seen a left movement this dedicated and this RIGHTOUS in a long long time. the future belongs to the young and the young belong to the movement. workers of the world UNITE!

I commented about burn out regarding my experiences with small city third party politics above. There’s a real danger that good people end up disillusioned and cynical because their work went for naught.

Making political points and moving discourse is important, but a lot of this can be done within existing parties. Finding the right fulcrum is sometimes easier from inside than outside.

I am with you and Jane is right on track with this being the way to go.

you’re misreading either Jane or Hugh. Hugh is all about moving the discussion to single payer as a means of achieving genuine progress on health care. Jane is about not being “Sister Souljah’d” over supporting single payer (or in any way directly taking on Obama) while saving face with a “victory” on a public option.

I think i see what you mean, but at the end of the day this cant be a single issue movement either. This is certainly where the rubber hits the road in the struggle against re capturing our government from corporate special interest…the MOST important struggle right now but if we fall apart and fail to follow up by hanging together for something bigger and better, we will fail.

But both are, I understand, at the point of no bill if no option. I personally, coming from Europe, am fully in favour of so called “single payer” or, better, Nationalized Medicine. However no bill seems to be the best option with no option.

Yep — why would I start cutting down trees to build a new house when the mansion down the street is just begging for someone to move in?

Giving away so much so soon shows a real contempt for the intelligence of the Republican leadership. When President Clinton got what he wanted, and also stole the Republican issues, the Republicans learned their lesson. Now they know that if they fight for something and get it they can brag about it and minimize the value of anything they had to give up to get it. If they see a new Democratic President has put a huge wooden horse outside the gate (years after they saw President Clinton’s) they are no longer fooled. They minimize any concessions they cannot take credit for and point out negotitions have not yet begun. I wish we had started with single payer. The Republicans would be bragging about how they prevented that, and how the Democrats had to settle for the public option.

I just donated some money. Thanks, Jane, for providing leadership on this important issue.

“Never doubt that a small, group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has.” Margaret Mead

Liberals don’t generally worship and obey their leaders as if they were their masters. Right-wingers do. So you and your kind must be used to simply doing what you’re told and demonizing anyone who is declared “fair game”. But it just doesn’t come naturally to us progressives. We see other people as actual people, not just “the enemy”, to be freely hated and attacked. I know it comes very easy to you to come in here and be a douche to people, but you have to accept that not everybody is as mentally unhealthy as you are. I know that might make you angry to contemplate, but that’s just the way it is.

I’m watching Richard Trumkin on Hardball and he’s standing firm and tall for public option – watch him if you can on repeats of Hardball. Very encouraging and inspiring to see the warrior still fighting no matter the odds!

Great news!

ps I love Eli’s Trumka pics from Netroots Nation

What a PITA. Palm voice memo blows when it comes to sharing the recording with other people.

Third Party, more discussion than I had expected. I agree that it is too early, but if there is a bill without a public option, or even if Obama comes out for such a bill next week? This isn’t really about just health care, although that is huge. We have listened to promises about the military – and are we doing anything you wouldn’t have expected from Bush? I am glad that the f22 was killed, but that is a tiny drop in a huge buket – and we are sending more troops to Afghanistan – I thought they were coming home.

Do you really think that a Republican couldn’t/wouldn’t have put through a stimulus package given the state of the economy – and that it might even have been stronger had they done it because we would have been helping them?

I watch what is happening with TARP and the economy and it looks a lot like an extension of Bush/Paulson policies with a few slaps at the problems of derivatives, but no real attempt to fix Wall Street or banking (as FDR did). We are on the hook for many trillions – right now, but our president can’t make the case that a public option would save money and we need to do that? This makes no sense – Even if it would cost the country a 100 billion a year to impliment universal healthcare, that’s chicken feed compared to waht we have given/promised Wall ST.

I look at our first Supreme Court nomination, now confirmed – I suspect that the Republican opposition was so that the progressives wouldn’t notice that she fit their mold far better than they could ever have hoped. I’m sure that she is a fine jurist, but she is not in the tradition of any progressive justice I can think of.

And what about the “rule of law” when it comes to torture. Or Obama’s much vaunted “transparency.”

In fact, I feel that I must be overlooking some things – what has Obama done that Bush wouldn’t/couldn’t have done given the circumstances – beyond some pretty speeches admitting that we aren’t perfect?

Obama has pandered to every financially important group and done their bidding and has certainly not put forward a lot of effort to help the rest of us. I am tired of seeing the government pandering to the rich.

The question then is this, where is the progressive representation in this government. There is Nancy Pelosi, and a group of repesentatives, but what about Reid, and the entire President’s cabinet. And The President. As far as I can see, Obama has pandered to any big business that came across his vision, whether Wall Street, or Big Pharma, or Insurance…

I could go on (obviously). But right now, we need to keep our powder dry, and I think it is appropriate to recognize that Jane is one of the best organizers around. Far more than a political thinker, she is a doer, and she has already organized a number of thinkers.

Hmm, I’m lazy, I don’t want to see another party, but if not, what will we have left?

Bradford

I guess I am not an expert but it seems like the path towards taking over the Democrats or starting a 3rd party both start by stepping in exactly the same direction and continue together for a long time. So the decision over which of the two is better seems a bit pointless.

Either way you have to establish a brand name within the Democratic party first and get a lot of people to identify with that brand name to the extent that they have more loyalty to that brand name than they do to the Democratic party as a whole. ie so they will, as with this case before us, vote to derail the Democratic party sooner than back down on their own policies or their own group’s negotiated positions.

Without such an identity you are not going to do either one.

And frankly with that identity you may not have to do either one.

The main problem I see with trying to get such a group going is that the progressives are simply unwilling to bring down the Democrats if they don’t get their way. They just won’t do it. I see more and more people on these boards and throughout the blogosphere saying they will do it but they won’t. Come 2012 they will vote Democrat regardless of any deals or threats that their leaders will have negotiated. And it seems that the assumption in the White House is that the progressive congressmen will be similarly cowardly.

It’s quite simple. If the group doesn’t have the balls to face down Obama and the rest of the Democratic leadership — and that means letting the Republicans into power in 2012 — then you will always be their doormat. And I just don’t see it happening.

That’s what you need. Some iron in your spines. Without it all this talk of third parties or taking over the Democrats is just talk. You’re just Obama’s doormat. The guy is practically sneering at you; daring you to speak out of turn. “What you gonna do about it pwoggie? Nothing.”

hi jane,

i completely agree with not giving an inch on the public option,s o please don’t view this suggestion as a retreat.

however, if they are going to propose this trigger idea i feel that we should point out that triggers without teeth always fail.

one example of teeth might be linking health insurance CEO and CFO bonuses directly to specific benchmark. negative progress against benchmarks (the most likely scenario) means no bonuses. if the CEO’s and their boards can’t agree to this which they won’t, it makes it pretty clear to everyone that triggers are bogus.

OK, I’ve sent an mp3 recording made from playback from voice memo. You should have it and a .amr file that can be listened to in real player. The mp3 is better quality.

I’m going to record video in the future, even if all I want is audio because the voice memo blows major chunks.

Talking of needing a spine Chris Bowers is pre-emptively capitulating to Obama for 2012.

http://www.openleft.com/diary/…..-president

I suppose he knows his stuff and that’s the problem; the progressives are simply too weak to ever do anything but submit to Obama and the Blue Dogs. They have no fight in them.

But how could it be any other way? All those saying they’re done with the Democrats if (as seems likely) Obama drops the public option will crawl back on their bellies in 2012 under the threat of president Palin or another chance for the Republicans to stuff the Supreme Court with a right wing nut.

That’s why the Overton window is so important — and why the betrayal of single payer was not just bad policy, but politically brain dead as well.

The amazing thing is how much democrats have given up even the pretense of defending the ideals they were elected on. It’s not like progressives have been pushy about the legislative agenda. Criminal banks were bailed out and empowered, civil rights were ignored, gays got nothing, government secrecy was defended, past crimes were enabled, etc… and progressives held their nose because Obama was saving his political capital for health care. That’s why for most of us “Single Payer” is the last straw. If not this, then what? And when? I don’t think Obama/Rahm/Dems fully understand the kind of blowback coming their way for lifting aspirations so high just to rip them to shreds. “Rip them to shreds” doesn’t even come close to conveying it. It’s far, far worse than that. They’re attacking their entire voting base for being dumb enough to trust them.

Without it all this talk of third parties or taking over the Democrats is just talk. You’re just Obama’s doormat. The guy is practically sneering at you; daring you to speak out of turn. “What you gonna do about it pwoggie? Nothing.”

very well stated! I’ve been trying to make the same point here for years, but I am not nearly so avuncular about it.

and postmodernprimate lays it out well – outside the relatively small confines of the Democratic Party captured progressive blogosphere there are plenty of folks who voted for Obama who were disaffected (R)’s, skeptical (I)’s
on the fence Post-Democrats, and electoral non-participants who will have no problem going back where they came from once the realize they were conned.

most people don’t have this deep psychological investiture with the Blue Donkey, and can easily just walk.

I’m all for killing off healthcare reform this year because there is no health, care, or reform in it. This is an insurance bill plain and simple and a bad deal for ordinary Americans.

You’re smarter and better informed than to say such a silly thing.

There’s more money for doctors & nurses and there’s gov’t research into what treatments work best and the mandates plus public option and the no-pre-conditions language gets more people insurance which means health care for them and there’s IT money to make the health care industry work better which means fewer mistakes with care.

Say there’s no health CARE change and you lie.

Ummm, given the response “you’re smarter and better informed than to say such a silly thing.” I assume that you believe that you are so informed.

I never thougth that being in error was the equivalent of a lie.

Then, to the topic at hand, First of all, Hugh is wrong in saying that there would be no change – there would be a change in the removal of the ability of the insurane companies to weed out pre-existing conditions, the insurance companies would increase their charges even more. Thus Health Insurance would be more expensive and thus ultimately less available. While the other issues you mention are true, you miss the point that the primary reason to reform health care is to make it available – preferably for all.

So, we would be left with less availble (based on cost) insurance for those who can’t afford it now or an incredible wind-fall for insurance companies (via mandated insurance purchases which would in all likelihood be under subsidized).

Most likely we would wind up with both since tis option does nothing to drive down costs and the government can’t pay for the insurance required for 50 million people at current rates, much less the increased rates. If we don’t fix the access problem, all the reswt is euyecandy and not worth a warm bucket of spit.

Who says we don’t have socialism.

Cheers,

Bradford

I hear that… It sucks when your options are a comprimiser or another comprimiser. Can anyone just stick to thier guns?

Where do they get the stuff that we were rollrd on the Public Option. If my memory servers me right It was Obama who stated that he would not sign any bill that didn’t have a Public Option in it. Go back on this and he and his party are doomed.