Last week, a list of 50 names was leaked that supposedly represents the members of the Congressional Progressive Caucus who have agreed to vote against any health care bill that didn’t meet their criteria. Ryan Grim contacted Diane Watson, who is in charge of the Progressive Caucus’s whip operation, and she confirmed the validity of the list.
NYCeve and I had spoken with Jerrold Nadler earlier that day, who indicated that there had been an internal whip operation, but that members had simply been asked if they would vote against a health care bill that didn’t have a "robust public plan" — but there was no attempt to define what that meant.
So we decided to contact all 50 offices and try to confirm the validity of the list. Here’s what we learned:
| John Lewis | "has not been whipped by the CPC on this issue." |
| Sheila Jackson-Lee | She recently said “our cause, our civil rights issue, is a public option…We will throw ourselves in front of a running train for this once-in-a-lifetime opportunity." But her office has "no position at this point." |
| Andre Carson | Reiterated his support for a robust public option — he’s the only member of the Indiana delegation to strongly support it — but refused to comment on internal caucus deliberations, and wasn’t prepared to take the pledge. Also refused to confirm when asked on camera. |
| Louise Slaughter | "Has not yet taken a position on the bill because there is still much to sort out on the final language." |
| Chelle Pingree | Chellie answered the whip question about supporting a bill that didn’t have a public plan with a “no.” She definitely feels it must have one. She’s working hard to get this legislation through and has been an activist in the Congressional Progressive Caucus. And mostly she feels there can’t be a delay in getting this bill passed. |
| Jim McGovern | "While [Rep. McGovern] is strongly in favor of a public option, he has not said that he would vote against a bill that did not include it." |
| Robert Wexler | Said he would vote against any bill that did not meet CPC criteria, but did not say he had been whipped on it. Refused to confirm when asked on camera. |
| Donald Payne | Refused to confirm when asked on camera. |
| Ben Ray Lujan | Refused to confirm when asked on camera. |
| Eric Massa | Refused to confirm when asked on camera. |
Phil Hare, Donna Edwards, Emanuel Cleaver, Raul Grijalva, Keith Ellison, Jerold Nadler, Lynn Woolsey, Rush Holt, Maxine Waters and John Yarmuth all say they’ll vote against a bill that doesn’t have a "robust" public plan (the question Nadler said was whipped) — but they had already done so in response to our whip count effort. Only one person on the list of 50 who confirms Nadler’s account — Chelle Pingree.
Not one person confirms what Diane Watson said.
What does this mean? Well, at a time when 76% of Americans want a public plan, there is no meaningful whip operation in the Congressional Progressive Caucus. At the very moment that the Blue Dogs are drawing a very strong line in the sand trying to destroy it.
Diane Watson needs to explain what is happening here. Why did she confirm the validity of a list that does not appear to be correct? Did she do the whipping? Is this her list? Was it accurate at one time, but no longer? And if so, what changed? What went wrong?
Watson should do a public whip count of those who will commit to vote against any health care bill that does not have robust public plan, because the value of an internal one that nobody feels compelled to live up to is dubious. And the co-op squeeze play is alive and well — the Senate wants to pass one, the Blue Dogs want one, and Obama says he’s open to having one.
On our side, Lynn Woolsey wants to go home and "listen to her voters."
Watson’s credibility is on the line here, as is the future of the public plan. Call her office and ask her to explain what’s going on, and ask her to run the whip count again — publicly. Or you can post to her Facebook page.
DC: 202-225-7084, LA 323-965-1422



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Jane Hamsher, You are a national treasure.
Jane – I’ll see you tonight at the Hammer in Westwood. Keep on truckin’!
It’s not surprising that the progressives are fractured. They’re always fractured. It’s unfortunate. I think part of it is the progressive desire to make sure that everyone is listened to. That makes it really hard to take stands with a diverse membership and people who think very differently.
and this is how the best of the best of the Least Worst acts when the chips are down, trying to pass some watered down health reform legislation that 76% of Americans are in favor of?
doesn’t exactly make a compelling case for the obligation to vote Democratic, no matter what.
It is morally repugnant to profit off the misery or ill health of Americans. It’s criminal that medical bills to the private for-profit MEDICAL/INSURANCE INDUSTRIAL COMPLEX make up 62% of all bankruptcies filed in the U.S. each year. Americans spend 2.5 Trillion Dollars a year on Health care. The overhead at the private for-profit MEDICAL/INSURANCE INDUSTRIAL COMPLEX is upwards of 35% of the health care dollar spent each year in the U.S. That is approximately $900 Billion a year the MEDICAL/INSURANCE INDUSTRIAL COMPLEX uses for BRIBING CONGRESS and their lavish lifestyles, huge salaries plus perks and bonuses. All the while milking the hard-working men/women of this great nation of their hard earned money.
On the other hand Medicare has an overhead of 2%, Canada’s system is 1.5%, Europe’s 2.5% on average. The money that could be saved by eliminating the private for-profit MEDICAL/INSURANCE INDUSTRIAL COMPLEX is estimated at $900 Billion a year. Enough money to help pay for putting all Americans on MEDICARE/SINGLE-PAYER TYPE HEALTH CARE SYSTEM.
We have to fight back and call, write e-mails, letters-to-editors, Congress and to the White House to let them know how Americans feel about the private for-profit MEDICAL/INSURANCE INDUSTRIAL COMPLEX that currently provides the health care in this country.
Here are some Senators and blue dog(dems) who are on the wrong side of Health Care reform. Give them a call and demand,
“MEDICARE/SINGLE-PAYER TYPE HEALTH CARE FOR ALL NOW!”
Thanks to Dateline_Molly for this chart that shows how much money was paid to Senators by the MEDICAL/INSURANCE INDUSTRIAL COMPLEX to OBSTRUCT health care refrom. Link Now, when I call each member I can quote to them how much money they were PAID/BRIBED by the MEDICAL/INSURANCE INDUSTRIAL COMPLEX to throw their constituents under the bus and deny them SINGLE-PAYER HEALTH CARE.
(blue dogs)
Ross D-AR, Boucher D-VA, Kind D-WI, Pomeroy D-ND, Tanner D-TN
Polis (CO), Titus (NV) and Altmire (PA)
These are the problem Democrats on the Energy and Commerce Committee: John Barrow (GA-12), Bruce Braley (IA-01), Bart Gordon (TN-04), Baron Hill (IN-09), Jay Inslee (WA-01), Jim Matheson (UT-02), Charlie Melancon LA-03, Zack Space (OH-18) and Bart Stupak (MI-01).
Joe Lieberman I-CT, Chuck Grassley R-IA, Lindsey Graham R-SC,
Susan Collins R-ME, Olympia Snowe R-ME, David Vitter R-LA,
Saxby Chambliss R-GA, Tom Coburn R-OK, Jon Kyl R-AZ,
John Thune R-SD, Richard Lugar R-IN, Jim DeMint R-SC
Jeff Sessions R-AL, Richard Shelby R-AL, Mel Martinez R-FL,
John McCain R-AZ, Mitch McConnell R-KY, Jim Inhofe R-OK,
Lamar Alexander R-TN, Dick Burr R-NC, John Cornyn R-TX
Mark Pryor D-AR, Thomas Carper D-DE, Mary Landrieu D-LA,
Max Baucus D-MT, Kent Conrad D-ND, Ben Nelson D-NE,
Maria Cantwell D-WA, Kay Hagan D-NC, Blanche Lincoln D-AR,
Ron Wyden D-OR, Evan Bayh D-IN, Diane Feinstein D-CA,
Arlen Specter D-PA
Here are the toll-free numbers for the Capitol Hill Switchboard:
(House and Senate)
1-800-828-0498
1-866-338-1015
1-866-220-0044
1-800-473-6711
Also give the President a call or write an e-mail:
White House Comments Line:
1-202-456-1111 M-F 9:00-5:00 est. (NOT A TOLL-FREE #)
President Obama’s e-mail: http://www.whitehouse.gov/contact/
Nothing rattles the Congress and White House more than informed CITIZEN/VOTERS ringing
the phones off the hook for real health care reform. Call the House, Senate and the White House and demand,
“MEDICARE/SINGLE-PAYER TYPE HEALTH CARE FOR ALL NOW!”
SEMPER FI!
hey firedogs – once you’re off the phone – head on over to her Facebook page and ask her where everybody can see :D
Looks like we have a corpsman in the house! Welcome Doc.
Very cool, Todd. I’ll be there.
I have emailed both of my D Senators in Virginia that I will be holding my nose and actually voting Republican next time they’re up for re-election if health care doesn’t get done, even though I did vote for both Webb and Warner last time.
I really believe the Republican Party is probably the worst thing that’s ever happened to this country (at least today’s version of it), but if Democrat’s can’t pass a real health care bill, with a real public option and real or near universal care now, then as far as I’m concerned they don’t deserve my vote. And I believe by not only withholding my vote from them but ALSO adding my vote to whoever the Republican candidate will be, that I am doubling my personal consequences for Democrats not acting like Democrats. I wish all would contact their Democratic legislators and do the same.
If it doesn’t get done now, then it’s never getting done. Ever. If the Democrats can’t act like Democrats with 60 Senators, the Presidency, and a large majority in the house, then it’s time for a progressive third party to emerge or something. I’m tired of this crap.
Good suggestion, I updated.
Jane…You are absolutely the best. I know – I know I’ve said that before but you truly are. And my grandaughter who just turned 14 agrees with me wholeheartedly! Recently, in her 9th grade civics class, the teacher instructed the students to write an essay about who they think has had the most positive impact on them. It could be a politician, journalist…anyone along those lines. Many of the students of course said Obama, some said Pelosi…etc. When it was my grandaughter’s turn, she walked to the head of the classroom, essay in hand, and proudly announced Jane Hamsher of Firedoglake.com, then proceeded to read her essay to the classroom!! When she told me about this a few days later, I hugged her closely and a tear rolled down my cheek! You really are the greatest!! Thank you
Wow. I am flattered beyond words. Thank you (and her).
Jane Hamsher, you are a disgrace. If you think the European and Canadian Model is such a great idea and has worked out well why don’t you pack up and move there? I know why… because you won’t to spread the misery here in the U.S. You won’t be content until everyone is miserable.
In your earlier thread on Blue Dogs and Co-ops, I posted as number 56.
In that post, I offered the suggestion that if we, as staunch Democrats want to see our fellow Democrats in Congress become constructive without all the theatrics, the Question that must be whipped is this:
“Do you favor a public option that consists of expanding the VA’s Medical and Hospital Systemic to encompass UHC?”
By whipping the question with the VA as the Exemplar, everyone in Congress understands this functionality and value, and subequently the “yardstick” for what the Congress wants to accomplish, is measured against the VA or this Understandable Standard being the VA. And of equal importance, do these members of congress believe that Americans should receive less than the quality and quantity of “medical care delivered” by the VA?
And how these Members respond, will tell us more that what they have said in the past, either in public or private.
And lest I forget, I second Eureka Springs for your being a “national treasure”.
Jaango
Will the last person to leave the U.S. please turn out the lights.
Breaking News: Well not really, but here is the new GOP talking point to try and kill health care reform.
The new health care reform legislation will make private coverage illegal.
See for yourself.
http://progressnotcongress.org/?p=2233
You left out the “neener neener” part.
No health care for you and yours, toad!
Think about that when you call for an ambulance and they insist on getting a valid credit card number first, and then put you on hold while they check your credit limit and history.
and even if it does get done, its a watered down compromise that leaves the parasitic profit driven insurance oligopoly in place!
I salute your call to your D’s in Virginia – hopefully they have a line in their spreadsheet where they keep track of such things marked “vows to vote for opponent” . . . and if this number gets high, it will really get their attention!
outraged calls lose a smidge of credibility if it is taken for granted that the caller will still obediently vote (D) next time, no matter what the congresscritter ends up doing.
You’re a little late with that tired argument. It’s the same one used by the rednecks during the Vietnam War: “Love it or leave it.”
Thanks for bringing back the fond memories, Sweet Frederic.
take a hike scmuck
Just called & asked what Watson was doing wrt whipping the progressive causcus. Got a canned speech about what Watson’s position was. Politely interrupted to say that I wasn’t asking what Watson’s position was, but what she was doing in her job of whip in the caucus about public plan. The phone jockey, with a bit of frustration in her voice, said that she had just gotten another call with the same request (heh), and that she wasn’t “allowed” to say what Watson was doing qua whip, only what Watson’s position was on public option. I suggested that Watson should reveal what her plans were as whip, and perhaps post it on her website. The phone jockey said that she’d be happy to put that in her phone notes.
Jane Hamsher, you are angel and a smart one. I just got off the phone with an aide at Watson’s office. The aide could not reconcile the list of last week’s letter and the statements of individual caucus members and said that she (Watson) could not speak for members of the Progressive Caucus. The aide stated that Watson is pro public option but when I explained the pledge she said that she could not take a pledge for the representative.
I thought there was something fishy about that list and now I wonder if it was just a poorly executed intervention to support the bill or if it was a deliberate attempt to dilute what we are trying to do.
she won’t go…all of them will have fled to the Caymans where they can get good private care leaving the country in the hands of the dictators.
Old nostrums never die, they just get recycled.
Am in the process of reading “The Dark Side of Camelot” by Seymour Hirsch. Seems JFK wouldn’t have been elected without Mafia intervention. Corruption in 1960 was epidemic. Doubt it got better in the succeeding years. If you think you’re playing on a level field or that reasoning together will do the trick, you will be disappointed. Time will tell.
Yeah, high five! This and our phone notes and we still still don’t have no frederican’ progressive whip.
Heh. You were the person who called just in advance of me. You were more defined in your Qs, but I think the phone jockey got the point.
Tell it to the Canadians:
So, 55% of those polled thought it would be better if it was MORE public.
Only one in four Americans believe that healthcare coverage in this country is excellent or good.
http://www.gallup.com/poll/112…..ently.aspx
That’s the problem with getting your information from commercials. They’re frequently wrong.
brilliant response!!
What an ugly world Frederick really desires if it is allowed to fully come to fruition…..
Wait a minute — she DID speak for members of the Progressive Caucus. That’s just nuts.
Thanks for calling!
Yes she did.
what’s this got to do with anything?
We know the playing field isn’t level. Does that mean we should stop trying?
The more I learn about the U.S. history I floated thru without knowing what was going on, the more I realize it’s not much different now. Names change, tactics get modified, power shifts marginally, and W set some records for low behavior, but our issues remain. Internet is still a new way to organize political feelings, so let’s see how far we can go with it.
The really funny (sort of) thing is I’m actually gonna do it. I’m gonna fill in that oval for whoever the Republican nominee is in 2012 against Webb and 2014 against Warner (if I’m still here). Never thought I’d vote Republican again in my life, but I will for this cause. And I’ve convinced 5 other voting members of my family to do the same. Obviously I won’t know if they actually did it, but if the Democrats don’t deliver REAL HEALTH CARE REFORM (and no, not some watered down bullcrap to appease the insurance and pharmacuetical industries), I am VOTING REPUBLICAN. And will do so until a new, progressive, third party emerges.
I’m guessing I’m older than most here, but I remember the fights from the 60’s when the issue was discussed (and it’s funny how the GOP is using almost IDENTICAL language today), and have waited my whole life for this one issue. If the Democrats don’t do it now, then I’m done supporting them. Both with my vote and my donations. LOL, probably still get the damned junk mail though.
Funny how our trolls have focused on posts on health care.
It’s worth remembering which side ultimately prevailed in that earlier prolonged confrontation.
You noticed that too?
Our health care in Ontario was excellent – and we were able to choose our own doctors, despite all the crap the Republicans keep spewing. Our care in Sweden? Great. I love this country, but our health care system is a disgrace.
the great wheel of life, guess another way you might put it is that it’s all bullshit
The Republicans certainly think there’s a difference between themselves and the Democrats. That’s why they pay you guys to take votes away from the Dems. Worked like a charm in 2000 — you took nearly seven times as many from Gore as Buchanan took from Bush.
Wonder what trolls think they’ll accomplish here. Is their goal to change our opinion? In which case, they might notice that the style of this blog is to provide evidence & links, like Jane’s A in 29.
Rhetorical Q.
IMO, the jury’s still out on whether history goes in a line or is cyclical.
Since no candidate for the Arkansas Senate or House has had an opponent since 1950, if people decide they want to go third party I’d suggest you put some energy into the Arkansas Greens and forgo voting for Republicans.
http://arkgreens.kk5.org/#
Since the Dems and Republicans have agreed not to oppose each other there, it can’t do any harm.
Uh-huh. They really don’t want to see it passed. Some of them want to see it fail (and want to see us demoralized) for the same reasons Nader wanted to make sure Bush lost in 2000.
*g* Divide and conquer won’t work here.
uh yep. I have been the scourge of facebook today – hitting all their sites after phone calls – and the Bluer the dog, the crazier the ‘fans’.
what in bloody hell does it say about any Dem when all his/her props are from dittohead mouthbreathers ?!?!?
you probably remember the bungled Clintoncare attempt to square the circle . . . and this Bill Moyers Journal video even talks about a faux reform charade under Jimmy Carter!
Bill Moyers Journal on healthcare reform efforts under (D) admins:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wi1acHg3mhw
who, nonetheless, is probably the greatest ex-president we’ve ever had.
I think the problem is that the CPC is too nice. Really, it is. If they want anything done, they have to be willing to throw elbows the way LBJ did, and the way the Blue Dogs do and the way the Republicans do. Yeah, the GOP-controlled media will call you names. So what? For once they haven’t been able to totally control the messaging here — otherwise a public option wouldn’t be so popular.
Troll goals? Attention seeking and trying to stir the pot for more attention. Sorta like spoiled 13 year olds.
Thanks for proving that you and your buddy (or is is sockpuppet?) really are working, just as Nader did, on the GOP’s behalf. Carry on!
That, and killing people’s morale with energy-sapping reflexive cynicism. That’s why the Republicans paid for Nader’s TV ads across the country in 2000.
Game, set and match to Jane!
Wow, the Republicans must really fear FDL if they keep sending their trolls over to play disruption games. We must be doing something right!
Wow, no divide and conquer here.
I’m just talking about consequences. The immorality of our current health care situation is unjustifiable. If the Democrats once again give in to the corporate interests and fail to pass real health care reform, then they should suffer real consequences. I’ll gladly pledge to vote straight D for the rest of my life if they DO pass it. But I’m equally pledging to NOT vote for them any longer if they don’t. If it doesn’t get done now, with this majority, then it’s not getting done, at least not by the current Democratic party. And there’s just no excuse for it not to get done this time. NONE.
There’s no need to even include Republican’s in on the fun. Remember how the Republican’s kept the Democrats pretty much totally out while W ran the show??? Why the Democratic “need” to include them???
Get it done, get it done now, or this is one vote they’ll lose forever. And the last thing I want is for the Republicans to return to power, but as long the Democrats feel they can diss the progressives among us because “we’d never vote Republican”, then they’ll continue to diss us. I’m done with it, and them, if they don’t get it done.
Sorry, I know I’m going off a little here, but this has been my number one issue my entire life.
one more arrow in our quiver -
you can create a Facebook ad (scroll down to “have at it”)
you can ‘target’ their districts – for as low as $20.00
amusing, and revealing, use of the word ‘took’ in your latest talking points post.
as if the votes somehow belonged to the Democrats!
like serfs on the land, who took the crops they grew, and ate it or sold it themselves, instead of tithing to the lord of the manor.
“I’m sorry sir, but we only take American Express. Have you tried hitch-hiking to the hospital?”
Democrats, like the old Communist Party, thinks they are ENTITLED to those votes. Like the old plantation serfs…now in reverse. If you don’t KowTow to the Lord Messiah Obama you are dirt. Not me…
what a sap, this place hammers Obama
This is not FDR’s Democratic Party. Today it’s Wall Street’s Democratic Party. The trolls keep saying we’ll destroy the Democratic Party. Since FDR’s party is long gone I don’t have a problem revamping today’s Democratic Party. I want the Blue Dogs in a minority caucus where the only people they harm are themselves, politically.
but only within the co-dependent framework of voting Democratic, no matter what.
it is that framework that is never held up for review . . . and unspoken consensus issues are often very touchy.
These trolls are like big Florida cockroaches suddenly exposed to the light.
I understand. The left has been operating on the Nader model of advocacy since the 70s — which the right learned to dominate in the 80s — and we’ve been having our asses handed to us ever since. Get a bunch of experts to tell us what we need to do, scream from the sidelines rather actually develop any targeted activism strategy, then call everyone a “sellout” who is trying to operate in the real world for the same goals — simply because they don’t embrace the tactics of proven failure.
If they had a real strategy they’d be out there executing it. I don’t know that this will work but I know their recipe has brought us three decades of failure. Basically the default is obstruct any change and insult anyone who doesn’t agree with them, so that the system gets so bad that tons of people die and there is rioting in the streets, at which point I guess everyone looks to them for answers and they can say that we should have listened to them all along.
Brilliant.
Yup. But are they fools, or are they knaves? (translation: Do they believe what they write, or are they paid? One wonders).
I gotta framework for ya
It isn’t the names they MIGHT call you,it’s the name that you choose to ANSWER to that counts!
PW, have been thinking about this today (ok, off and on for several weeks)
and I don’t mean to insult or denigrate the public service of most of these folks –
But frankly I don’t think they’ve ever been forced to function as Progressives and as a voting bloc before this fight. The War, Torture, FISA, Choice, DOMA, they could vote as a group, but it was in a Congress full of Blew Dogs and Bushies – what did they have to lose ? And so they rec’d a few calls from some firedogs, kossacks, whatever –
Take this Watson mess as an example – am willing to bet this sort of thing has been done many times before – without any accountability
And now they are gettings tons of calls – from people who are watching their every move – they’ve never had to answer before
Digby sometimes speaks of our immaturity as a movement/force and I agree – this will be one on the growth chart for us when all is said and done. But I’m thinking the same holds true for the Caucus – no more frontin’, no more baby steppin’ – it’s time
When all you have is a hammer,EVERYTHING looks like a nail…..
!!!
and the (D)’s have been operating on the corporatist sellout model during this time period – you just have your cause and effect reversed.
acting like Republican Lite just makes the choice to vote for a real Republican easier – when they convince enough people that they represent ‘change’ they win!
then when a messenger comes and says, ‘er, excuse me, they ran on change, but they are not doing change’ – shoot the messenger!
If I may, I was having a disussion on Sunday with a friend of mine who ran recently for city council(alas,lost),about the inertia Democrats experience just when ORGANIZATION i9s what’s needed the most.
I gotta give the Devil(Repubes) their due.They will,can,and do organize around their issues.
WHY do decent people possess less backbone than the selfish folk?
And let us not forget that should a public option be included (and then be overwhelmingly successful as it likely would be), those enormous private Health Care campaign contributions would dry up and disappear.
Cold turkey Congresscritters is not a pretty sight.
Gitch -
I wish I could talk purdy – I’m not expressing disappointment in any of them (ok, Alan Grayson not withstanding) it’s not that they don’t have backbone – they’ve just never had to use it before this fight. wondering how many of them are now thinking about it – they’re not functioning as a true caucus, more like a loose confederation – helluva time for them to start but we don’t have a choice
Raid makes a dual action roach bait,specifically for those BIG “roids” roaches.
Umm,they render them sterile,too.
Hope I haven’t offended anybody with that last info.
there has been plenty of hilarious evidence in the past several months, that the vaunted Repub messaging discipline had deserted them …
until I listened to the mark up last night. their talking points hollow and predictable as all hell, but their pacing/choreography was a thing of beauty
thank dog, the Blew Dogs didn’t have it anywhere near as together
I wish I could talk purty,too!
I have LONG said, ya cain’t substitute a wishbone for a backbone!
And last I heard,there ain’t no such thing as a backbone implant…but there’d be a run on ‘em if there was,I reckon!
I think the response here is ‘don’t let the door hit you’.
If you think voting for the Rs will improve anything, maybe you’re in the wrong party already.
Beautiful analysis, Jane! It’s the difference between having a progressive idea and having a (realistic) plan to make it happen. Good on you!
{{{You are my hero.}}}
Well, apparently it’s not just the trolls saying this. Well, either that or I’m misreading some of the other comments too. I’m new here (first day), and I might be misreading it.
I just posted at 538 and here about my emailing my Senators because I thought if there was ever a time when the Democrats need a “push” it’s now. I’m not “paid” by the wingnuts, nor would take their money if ever offerred. I thought it was a good idea, but guess didn’t realize it might come off as some sort of GOP “divide and conquer” type of thing. (God they have endless dollars and zero ethics, so I guess they would do such a thing).
Anyway, I won’t suggest it to others anymore, although I (and my family) are standing by it here in Virginia. We’ve waited our whole life for the U.S. to finally catch up with the rest of the modern world and thought this was actually, finally, going to be the time. Now, I’m not sure. I’m starting to think it is going to be some sort of sellout. And I know there are those that think that that’s “progess” in the real world, but I view it as just another delay tactic for another generation.
THIS NEEDS TO GET DONE NOW. No American, no person, should suffer economically just because they suffer physically. And no American should suffer physically simply because of their economic situation. Health care should be a right, and not a privilege. And if it’s not made a right now, I just don’t see it getting made a right ever, at least in my lifetime.
It has to do with how we influence our representatives. When the fix is in all the whips in the world won’t work
I think it’s because decent people expect everyone else to be the same way, and are always surprised when they aren’t.
I’d really like to see the results of health insurance applications for everyone in Congress, applying for it (with honest answers to the health and age questions) as private citizens, especially if that information was used as part of the response when they start talking about how we as a country can’t afford to fix the system and how well the system already works.
I want to see their faces when they discover what they’d be getting as Joe and Jane Average, not Joe and Jane Privileged.
wait, I don’t get it – some how the Left ‘operating on the Nader model’ caused Bill Clinton to pass NAFTA, over the strong objections of many congressional (D)’s at the time?
the (D) Party went corporate, and then many on the left had to seek out other political forms of organization.
or are you one of those who still believe the Democrats are not a fully corporatized entity?
By all means we should keep trying, but I don’t think working through our representatives will do it. That’s a hard conclusion to reach because it means the system is irreparably broken. The internet provides new possibilities, but we haven’t tried anything new as yet.
you just stepped on a 3rd rail – and if you are new here you could not have known, but threatening to withold your vote from the Democrats is a big big taboo, and they get all twitchy like fainting goats if anyone advocates it as a means of leverage.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=we9_CdNPuJg
I’m not quite sure what you mean. You mean the passage of NAFTA was some kind of liberal “success” story?
IIRC it was a hideous failure of epic proportions. Despite having huge numbers in opposition to it, nobody managed to target their energies in any meaningful way and Rahm railroaded it through.
We’re having the same battle all over again. I can’t for the life of me understand why anyone would recommend using the same tactics.
Yeah,it’s kinda hard to have a pipe dream when you can no longer afford the tobacco..or even a pipe.
Health care should not be a pipe dream,but a reality for a civilized nation,in this country.
I thought the advent of technology would allow us to evovle-we’ve DEvolved,in this country.
I long ago advocated that any newly elected politician would be required to sign a contract with his/her constituents,subject to revocation and cancellation if their is no good faith,visible evidence that they are living up to their campaign promises.
Oh, and BTW, ASSuming that others have the same motivations we do is a recipe for disaster.I ALWAYS assume the worst of pols-yet hope for the best.
Most of us here would like the D Party to reflect the values it once espoused. We each have our own ideas on how and why that should be done. Ideas are one thing, ranting that our ideas will destroy the party are another. The trolls just want to stir shit up while they wank. They’re really not interested in an exchange of ideas, hence the “I’m right and you’re wrong” crap. I welcome the delay in passing any health care legislation. It gives us time to really lean on our reps/sens on our own turf instead of having to deal with them on their turf in Lala Land.
Still is and will continue to be forever and ever, amen.
please don’t misunderstand. my position is that the passage of NAFTA was a huge setback for Labor, working people, and the left.
the triangulating, corporatist tendencies in the (D) party were ascendent at the time, now they are dominant.
how did anyone ‘operating on the Nader model’ cause Bill Clinton, President of the USA and de facto head of the Democratic party, to take the initiative and force NAFTA through congress?
they didn’t – that is the direction your party chose to go in, and, after the departure of the charismatic ‘man from Hope (ark)’ there was a long string of elecotral losses.
left splintering is an epiphenomenon of this choice to become the party of (R) Lite, not the cause.
@86
yeah, like your fascinating discourse on cockroaches was so high-level, like Socrates himself.
Welcome to the Lake, by the way.
Well, I guess I’m unclear as to why. If the Democrat’s currently in Congress don’t pass real reform, won’t it be because they fear it’s not “politically expedient” to do so?? In other words, it hurts their careers. So they’re faced with the prospect of fearing for their career if they DO the right thing, but no fear if they fail to do the right thing. Seems like a bass ackwards sort of incentive to me.
I don’t get it for two reasons. Number one, as the right thing to do, I think they should do it, and if they get booted out in the next cycle or two, so what??? I mean shouldn’t their priority be to do the right thing, even if that means losing?
And second, IMO, if they do the right thing, most folks are going to realize what a bunch of crap all those scare tactics were from the right wingers, and they’re going to like the new setup better than the one now, and instead of being “martyred” they’ll be rewarded. Obviously some won’t like it better, but these will be folks who weren’t likely voting Democrat anyway.
Thus it’s why I came with my idea to email my Senators (my Congressman is already an R, Wolf), so no hope there. It would be nice that instead of the perverse incentive of fearing for their job for doing the right thing and feeling safe for not doing it, they would feel pressure for not doing the right thing.
Anyways, once again, sorry to have ruffled feathers. I won’t post further. I just hope and pray this gets done NOW because it’s not gonna if it doesn’t. And passing something watered down in the name of “something” is just going to be another way of saying real reform is dealyed for another generation. And meanwhile the folks believing all those scare tactics from the right are still going to be no more likely to vote D in the future than they are now.
We were talking about trolls and I think cockroaches are a pretty high level comparison.
I’m more optimistic than you about this. I don’t expect any meaningful legislation to come out this year but I’m willing to be wrong.
please check out that Moyers doc I linked to above – quite informative on this pattern.
also, try late nights at the lake – and phrase what you are doing as gently as you can, and you may get some better engagement.
- and SD @ 92 – both terms are just kind of pure invective, and the whole roach thing reeks of eliminationism of the sort Dave Niewert writes about at:
http://dneiwert.blogspot.com
That those “operating in the Nader model” failed to stop it is, I think, pretty obvious.
I think the point (Jane will correct me if needed) is that progressives didn’t mount an effective opposition to NAFTA. I don’t think anybody here would call Clinton a progressive. Certainly not me.
But her analysis goes way beyond that. What she’s getting at is why progressive measures have failed so miserably, in general, over the past years. And what she’s actually DOING is to show a way to give the progressives some real clout, starting with health care. And that won’t be the end of it, IMHO.
oh my goodness, I’m not talking about who failed to stop it, I’m talking about who initiated it, obviously, the leader of the Democratic Party!
and good old Rahm was there too – he sure has thrived within the Democratic Party since then?
and PeterK – indeed JH often has very cogent analyses – and what she is doing is having some effect, of course, but where has anyone addressed my assertion that the corporatization of the (D) Party is the cause of this left splintering that troubles you so much, and also has a lot to do with their electoral weakness since the 1980’s?
how can “progressives … mount an effective opposition to NAFTA” when it was pushed through by the Leader of the Democratic Party – and they are largely in the thrall of that leader?
anyway, this debate won’t get resolved today, so I’m tempted to say, until next time, ok?
Actually I believe NAFTA was initiated and negotiated by the Bush I admin and it was left to the Clinton Admin to get it voted on.
I’m not a Clinton fan by any stretch but let’s at least limit blaming him to things that he actually did.
sporkovat, in a way we’re talking at cross purposes. The Dems are definitely corporatized, no question, but there is still a progressive wing. The problem is that it’s been (pardon the sexism!) emasculated, and hasn’t been able to accomplish much, if anything, in recent years. One main reason for that failure is what Jane pointed out @ 63. How much this was caused by corporatization of the dems, I don’t know–but in any case it is something that is fixable, and doing that is quite likely to get some real results.
PeterK, spork’s not interested in dialogue — he’s interested in demoralization. That’s why he and his fellow objectively GOP travellers are swarming the health care threads: Jane’s activism is a threat and the only way that the GOP can stop this threat is to try and create or exploit and fissures in progressive activist ranks. That’s why he and the sockpuppets are here.
Why don’t you pack up and move there so the rest of us can get ahead with what needs to be done to fix up out country?