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	<title>Comments on: &#8220;It might not be 2011 but 2012, 2015, 2020&#8243;</title>
	<atom:link href="http://fdlaction.firedoglake.com/2009/06/14/it-might-not-be-2011-but-2012-2015-2020/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://fdlaction.firedoglake.com/2009/06/14/it-might-not-be-2011-but-2012-2015-2020/</link>
	<description>Politics for liberal newsgeeks</description>
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		<title>By: Mauimom</title>
		<link>http://fdlaction.firedoglake.com/2009/06/14/it-might-not-be-2011-but-2012-2015-2020/#comment-27653</link>
		<dc:creator>Mauimom</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Jun 2009 17:40:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://campaignsilo.firedoglake.com/2009/06/14/it-might-not-be-2011-but-2012-2015-2020/#comment-27653</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;
&lt;p&gt;So if you choose to censor me or have an ignore feature&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;
&lt;p&gt;You wish!!  In post after post you explicitly beg to be banned or censored.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Your form of “education” is to lecture and “convince” everyone that your point of view is the only right one.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;FDL is a forum for an &lt;strong&gt;exchange&lt;/strong&gt; of ideas, not a video game to see who “wins” and who “loses.”&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;This is how adults work, unlike late night dorm room debates.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote>
<p>So if you choose to censor me or have an ignore feature</p>
</blockquote>
<p>You wish!!  In post after post you explicitly beg to be banned or censored.</p>
<p>Your form of “education” is to lecture and “convince” everyone that your point of view is the only right one.</p>
<p>FDL is a forum for an <strong>exchange</strong> of ideas, not a video game to see who “wins” and who “loses.”</p>
<p>This is how adults work, unlike late night dorm room debates.</p>
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		<title>By: iceman15</title>
		<link>http://fdlaction.firedoglake.com/2009/06/14/it-might-not-be-2011-but-2012-2015-2020/#comment-27625</link>
		<dc:creator>iceman15</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Jun 2009 15:05:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://campaignsilo.firedoglake.com/2009/06/14/it-might-not-be-2011-but-2012-2015-2020/#comment-27625</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;There is no honor in any of this. Murtha is the most corrupt of the senior House democrats. His hands have been caught in the cookie jar many times over the past 25+ years, from Abscam in 1980 to FBI investigations into his voluminous ties to defence contractors today. Pelosi’s attempt to hoist him into the #2 position, in place of Hoyer, after the November ‘06 elections, was a stain on her already tattered reputation.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;In Afghanistan, surely we can learn something from history? The USSR invaded on Christmas Day 1979 but despite taking over the country quickly &amp; installing a puppet government with overwhelming ground and air control it was unable to subdue the fiercely independent tribal peoples. Finally it was forced to withdraw almsot 10 years later in February ‘89. Ironically it was this failure - together  a collapsing economy and imploding political ideology - at led to its total disintegration. We cannot ‘win’ on the ground any more than the soviets could, but are we really doomed to repeat their cycle of failure? Surely we learned enough of these lessons from McNamara and Rumsfeld between 1964 and 2006?&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Obama appears to be a captive of the domestic political situation every bit as much as LBJ was during his presidency. He has no coherent strategy that has not been defeated by the reality on the ground either in the 1960’s in Vietnam or in Iraq between 2003 &amp; 2008. Unfortunately Obama is shaping up was a far less formidable politican than LBJ, so this lack of vision may well have mst unfortunate consequences for all ‘change you can believe in’ on our key progressive reforms!&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There is no honor in any of this. Murtha is the most corrupt of the senior House democrats. His hands have been caught in the cookie jar many times over the past 25+ years, from Abscam in 1980 to FBI investigations into his voluminous ties to defence contractors today. Pelosi’s attempt to hoist him into the #2 position, in place of Hoyer, after the November ‘06 elections, was a stain on her already tattered reputation.</p>
<p>In Afghanistan, surely we can learn something from history? The USSR invaded on Christmas Day 1979 but despite taking over the country quickly &amp; installing a puppet government with overwhelming ground and air control it was unable to subdue the fiercely independent tribal peoples. Finally it was forced to withdraw almsot 10 years later in February ‘89. Ironically it was this failure &#8211; together  a collapsing economy and imploding political ideology &#8211; at led to its total disintegration. We cannot ‘win’ on the ground any more than the soviets could, but are we really doomed to repeat their cycle of failure? Surely we learned enough of these lessons from McNamara and Rumsfeld between 1964 and 2006?</p>
<p>Obama appears to be a captive of the domestic political situation every bit as much as LBJ was during his presidency. He has no coherent strategy that has not been defeated by the reality on the ground either in the 1960’s in Vietnam or in Iraq between 2003 &amp; 2008. Unfortunately Obama is shaping up was a far less formidable politican than LBJ, so this lack of vision may well have mst unfortunate consequences for all ‘change you can believe in’ on our key progressive reforms!</p>
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		<title>By: ekunin</title>
		<link>http://fdlaction.firedoglake.com/2009/06/14/it-might-not-be-2011-but-2012-2015-2020/#comment-27615</link>
		<dc:creator>ekunin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Jun 2009 12:09:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://campaignsilo.firedoglake.com/2009/06/14/it-might-not-be-2011-but-2012-2015-2020/#comment-27615</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Ah, redfish there’s a not so fine line between presenting your point of view and being a pain in the ass. Let’s just say you’ve presented your point of view (with which I do not agree) a lot.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;What is it you think we will accomplish in Afghanistan? Do you think we’ll eliminate the Taliban, war lords and turn the place into a liberal capitalist country (we don’t even have that here) Instead we’ve recognized a really corrupt government and are forced, like you, to excuse killing civilians with a “war is hell”. How much time must pass and blood must flow before you realize your expectations won’t happen? That’s always a tough one. I don’t have a statute of limitations on my expectations. &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;You say it’s about the next election. What if Obama’s strategy (assuming he has one) doesn’t work and Afghanistan turns into the same quagmire as Iraq. BTW were you against the Iraq war from the beginning? Can something wrong ab initio, as lawyers are wont to say, turn into something necessary? (i.e. we made the mess and we can’t leave until we clean it up?) If not now, when?&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ah, redfish there’s a not so fine line between presenting your point of view and being a pain in the ass. Let’s just say you’ve presented your point of view (with which I do not agree) a lot.</p>
<p>What is it you think we will accomplish in Afghanistan? Do you think we’ll eliminate the Taliban, war lords and turn the place into a liberal capitalist country (we don’t even have that here) Instead we’ve recognized a really corrupt government and are forced, like you, to excuse killing civilians with a “war is hell”. How much time must pass and blood must flow before you realize your expectations won’t happen? That’s always a tough one. I don’t have a statute of limitations on my expectations. </p>
<p>You say it’s about the next election. What if Obama’s strategy (assuming he has one) doesn’t work and Afghanistan turns into the same quagmire as Iraq. BTW were you against the Iraq war from the beginning? Can something wrong ab initio, as lawyers are wont to say, turn into something necessary? (i.e. we made the mess and we can’t leave until we clean it up?) If not now, when?</p>
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		<title>By: dakine01</title>
		<link>http://fdlaction.firedoglake.com/2009/06/14/it-might-not-be-2011-but-2012-2015-2020/#comment-27614</link>
		<dc:creator>dakine01</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Jun 2009 11:43:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://campaignsilo.firedoglake.com/2009/06/14/it-might-not-be-2011-but-2012-2015-2020/#comment-27614</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;I think they call that “noun, verb, 9/11″&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Rudy Giuliani was the supposed master of that.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Fortunately, the last election gave us a president and not a corrupt mayor.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think they call that “noun, verb, 9/11″</p>
<p>Rudy Giuliani was the supposed master of that.</p>
<p>Fortunately, the last election gave us a president and not a corrupt mayor.</p>
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		<title>By: Legion303</title>
		<link>http://fdlaction.firedoglake.com/2009/06/14/it-might-not-be-2011-but-2012-2015-2020/#comment-27613</link>
		<dc:creator>Legion303</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Jun 2009 11:32:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://campaignsilo.firedoglake.com/2009/06/14/it-might-not-be-2011-but-2012-2015-2020/#comment-27613</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;“Imagine that your wife went to work on a beautiful September morning”&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Translation: “OOGA BOOGA!”&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>“Imagine that your wife went to work on a beautiful September morning”</p>
<p>Translation: “OOGA BOOGA!”</p>
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		<title>By: newtonusr</title>
		<link>http://fdlaction.firedoglake.com/2009/06/14/it-might-not-be-2011-but-2012-2015-2020/#comment-27610</link>
		<dc:creator>newtonusr</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Jun 2009 05:29:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://campaignsilo.firedoglake.com/2009/06/14/it-might-not-be-2011-but-2012-2015-2020/#comment-27610</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;No, they do not. All they need, and all they have demanded, is a TIMELINE.&lt;br /&gt;
Everybody got that?&lt;br /&gt;
Let’s not forget that Democrats won a huge mandate in 2006 &lt;em&gt;because&lt;/em&gt; of our war postures, and it is well past time to deliver.&lt;br /&gt;
Are we now done curtsying to this attempt at making praise of Obama a religion, and opposition to bad strategy as apostasy?&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>No, they do not. All they need, and all they have demanded, is a TIMELINE.<br />
Everybody got that?<br />
Let’s not forget that Democrats won a huge mandate in 2006 <em>because</em> of our war postures, and it is well past time to deliver.<br />
Are we now done curtsying to this attempt at making praise of Obama a religion, and opposition to bad strategy as apostasy?</p>
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		<title>By: MarkH</title>
		<link>http://fdlaction.firedoglake.com/2009/06/14/it-might-not-be-2011-but-2012-2015-2020/#comment-27609</link>
		<dc:creator>MarkH</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Jun 2009 05:09:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://campaignsilo.firedoglake.com/2009/06/14/it-might-not-be-2011-but-2012-2015-2020/#comment-27609</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;What was it Richard Pryor said about running down the street on fire, people will stop you and ask for a light? Dems can oppose the IMF and photos provisions, but if they oppose the military funding then they need to talk to Obama’s people about the strategy and how this vote might be used against them in their next political campaign.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What was it Richard Pryor said about running down the street on fire, people will stop you and ask for a light? Dems can oppose the IMF and photos provisions, but if they oppose the military funding then they need to talk to Obama’s people about the strategy and how this vote might be used against them in their next political campaign.</p>
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		<title>By: redfish</title>
		<link>http://fdlaction.firedoglake.com/2009/06/14/it-might-not-be-2011-but-2012-2015-2020/#comment-27608</link>
		<dc:creator>redfish</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Jun 2009 03:07:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://campaignsilo.firedoglake.com/2009/06/14/it-might-not-be-2011-but-2012-2015-2020/#comment-27608</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Exactly! So what is the point except to give the GOP reactionaries a slogan for 2010 about how Democrats don’t support the troops — voted to cut off funding, etc. &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Moral victories of this kind are so hollow and naive.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Exactly! So what is the point except to give the GOP reactionaries a slogan for 2010 about how Democrats don’t support the troops — voted to cut off funding, etc. </p>
<p>Moral victories of this kind are so hollow and naive.</p>
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		<title>By: nrafter530</title>
		<link>http://fdlaction.firedoglake.com/2009/06/14/it-might-not-be-2011-but-2012-2015-2020/#comment-27607</link>
		<dc:creator>nrafter530</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Jun 2009 03:05:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://campaignsilo.firedoglake.com/2009/06/14/it-might-not-be-2011-but-2012-2015-2020/#comment-27607</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;It’s definitely not going to speed up withdrawal since next year’s allocation is already in the budget…the Pentagon will find the money through other means&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It’s definitely not going to speed up withdrawal since next year’s allocation is already in the budget…the Pentagon will find the money through other means</p>
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		<title>By: redfish</title>
		<link>http://fdlaction.firedoglake.com/2009/06/14/it-might-not-be-2011-but-2012-2015-2020/#comment-27605</link>
		<dc:creator>redfish</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Jun 2009 01:40:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://campaignsilo.firedoglake.com/2009/06/14/it-might-not-be-2011-but-2012-2015-2020/#comment-27605</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Mauimom - I’m truly sorry you are so intolerant of differing points of view. I am as passionate in my beliefs as you are in yours - the difference is I welcome your voice and don’t think you are high jacking anything. What are you afraid of?&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;I am here because I think when I presnt my positions I might possible make people think or even change a mind or two. If not, that’s ok as well. &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;So if you choose to censor me or have an ignore feature — please go right ahead. I think Bill O’Reilly has a “turn of their mike” button as well, you would be in good company.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mauimom &#8211; I’m truly sorry you are so intolerant of differing points of view. I am as passionate in my beliefs as you are in yours &#8211; the difference is I welcome your voice and don’t think you are high jacking anything. What are you afraid of?</p>
<p>I am here because I think when I presnt my positions I might possible make people think or even change a mind or two. If not, that’s ok as well. </p>
<p>So if you choose to censor me or have an ignore feature — please go right ahead. I think Bill O’Reilly has a “turn of their mike” button as well, you would be in good company.</p>
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