Great progress – Thanks Jane!

Hope folks are warming up for tomorrow by getting those retweets done today!

A Paul Ryan (R-WI) staffer said things I can’t repeat on a family blog like FDL.

Oh, c’mon Jane. Please, a PG-13 version. I’m dying of curiosity!!

Ryan’s a wingnut with a GM plant in his district on lifesupport.

Thanks Jane. I’m on it tomorrow.

I’m charging my phone for the morning … ready to get those calls going!

Do we know when the vote might be?

That little bastard Lieberman, AGAIN!

Sweet jesus, I can’t wait to read his obituary.
My contempt for Joe Lieberman is infinite and eternal.

It can be as soon as Tuesday. They are not in session on Monday – and no one had seen a conference report as of Friday but several members we spoke to said that all of that and a vote could happen in just a few hours if the leadership gets the votes they need. That’s why we need to push on Monday and not dawdle.

He’s so far beneath contempt.. would need the Hubble telescope to be able to look up and see a glimmer of contempts underbelly.

Thanks.. so will you, in what will surely be short phone conversations… will you ask the final bill be made available on the web well before a final vote?

Any word on Donna Edwards? She’s my rep and I’ll be contacting her.

I say this as a “pragmatic” progressive, liberal who likes us in power not them. Releasing those photos would be about the stupidest political choice ever made. Why do some progressives insist on intentional suicide as an option? Everyone knows what those photos portray – rape – torture – abuse – etc. The world knows what the Bush administration did. Obama is working to change all that, closing Guantanamo, outlawing water boarding and torture, etc. What purpose is served by shoving the photos down the throats of the world? Further inflammation of anti-American sentiment in Muslim countries? Emboldening terrorists? Coaxing moderate congressional Democrats to side with the GOP. Weakening Obama’s support amongst mainstream Americans?

There is a reason Obama is President and not Dennis Kucinich. This is NOT A FAR LEFT COUNTRY. It never will be. Get over it and appreciate what we can accomplish with Obama as president and resist the urge to shoot yourselves in the foot.

What part of accountability do you not get?

Sure, we know bad things happened, we got to see some of the pictures, which led to the charges against some low level grunts.
We are talking about high level Bush administration officials who gave the OK to do these horrific things so that we can put THEIR asses in jail, duh.

redfish, They are trying to hide evidence, both in a court of law and from the American public.. evidence of the worst of crimes. Crimes..

I don’t think *everybody* knows it. Not here at home anyway. And I think the evidence of what Obama is doing (protecting war criminals and the idea of a overly powerful and secret executive.. is far more alarming and dangerous on both Obama and congress part.

Why is the truth and demand for rule of law such a ”far left” or so easily negotiable position to you centrists?

As of now, Donna has been holding firm – a call to let her know we appreciate that is a great idea!

I am not a centrist. Since when did progressives have to toe the line on every issue — what ever happened to having an individual conscience based on belief?
To suggest that Obama and Holder are trying to hide evidence is not logical. Everyone has acknowledged what the photos show — it’s on the public record. Having those images plastered on the front page of every daily newspaper in every Muslim country in the world would only serve to exacerbate their hatred for America and do irreparable damage to Obama’s efforts to move forward. It would also make life far more dangerous for American troops and diplomats.

Everyone has acknowledged what the photos show — it’s on the public record.
Links, please.

Redfish – they are not hiding them from the Muslim world which is very aware of what has been done. They are hiding them from us here at home – if we actually saw the evidence, we might insist on prosecutions and for some reason, that has everyone very worried – especially since we have all the same commanders who oversaw the torture still in charge of our military.

This may be true. How do we bring the criminals to justice without the evidence? Or is only the losing side in a conflict brought to justice like during WWII?

The world knows what the Bush administration did.

if that is so, then obama attempting to hide the evidence and protect those who are responsible imo that will be far more damaging than taking the action which law and honesty demand: making the photos public while repudiating them and bringing justice both to the victims and those who are responsible.

Read “The Power Of Now” by Eckart Tolle. Live in the now. Bush is gone, let it go. This infatuation with revenge is just that revenge – couched as the need for justice. Baloney. I know, I have been on the inside of progressive organizations when these discussions were going on. It’s hatred and disdain for Bush-Cheney pure and simple and as understandable as that is — it does not serve Obama’s agenda at all. It does nothing for poor people, for the unemployed for the uninsured for gays and lesbians, etc. This irrational blood lust for revenge only will serve to weaken Democrats and Liberals. It is political suicide. Obama’s ability to accomplish a progressive agenda is already tough enough with a fragile coalition of Liberals, moderates and blue-dogs. He does not need this.

So, we let the criminals go again. And they will return to power eventually and repeat their deeds. Only worse. When people are angry and want criminals and mass murders brought to justice this is NOT revenge. If these horrid people are not punished then why are any of the prisons still full.

I can’t respond to everyone – I knew this would be a pile on and I can take it and — I respect everyone’s opinion. However, I am not willing to sacrifice an Obama presidency, Democratic Congress and another one or two potentially swing Supreme Court nominees for this emotionally guided, and wrong, lust for revenge.

It is also wrong to call these photos evidence at this point. Evidence is only evidence relevant in a legal process and there is none. Obama, Holder and leaders in Congress can press charges if they wanted to. They don’t.

My main point —-> Obama just made great strides in reaching out to the Muslim world — those who want to release photos from years ago showing American abuse of Muslims at this point in time are just plain wrong.

“Bush is gone, let it go.”

Ummm, no, hell no.
What is with you?

There were so many damn laws broken by that administration I lost count.
Listen, Bush, Cheney, and anyone associated with those two are more than 99% assured of conviction if someone would have the balls to prosecute them.
So, what you are saying is, hey, some of our people might have raped a few women, killed a few people but that is in the past.

Seriously, how do justify that line of crap?

Well, it’s nice to hear your concern for what we are still asking our troops to do…and what we are insisting Af Pak Iraqi citizens endure… for no good reason and no end in sight.

Cowards took us into these war crimes and wars based on lies and now, O’dem cowards are defending the criminals; protecting the American people from facing what we have wrought.

Torture and the wars based on lies past and present are intrinsically connected. Trying to hide any part of it.. will not save our troops if you really think about. Certainly will not protect and defend our constitution.

The very least a free and open society should be able to do… is face photos. Otherwise it’s all a bunch of lies when it comes to little things like liberty and justice, imo. And it will never really end.

no, it’s distain for torture. it’s distain for one law for the powerful and another for the rest of us. it’s distain for lack of making amends to the victims.

and i’m quite sure that everyone here is wants everyone responsible to be judged — not just the republicans.

then obama can pardon those found guilty if he wants. but we will have had investigations and judgments. those who are found guilty can be seen to be repudiated by the world. and we can make some kind of amends to the victims.

that is my agenda.

I appreciate the emotions – but using a term like mass murder is wrong. The people punished them by voting them from power Mary — we are in power now and we will be judged by what we do in the future, not by what we do about the past. Besides, be realistic for a moment — it is never going to happen. Period. That’s politics, that’s America, that is reality. There is good work to be done — try to imagine the outrage and push back not only from the right but from moderate Democrats against Bush era prosecutions. Do you have any idea what that would do to this country? To Obama’s chances to bring meaningful change to health care, gay rights, the environment, etc., etc.

I am sorry. I am an intense and radical supporter of a woman’s right to choose, gay marriage, protecting the environment, supporting labor unions, animal rights, civil rights, immigration reform, protecting the rights of working Americans and not giving the country away to the rich and powerful and I support single payer health care.

That having been said, I voted for Barack Obama not Code Pink. I want to get things done on all these issues. We will have to diasagree. I’ll stand with Obama on this issue.

but using a term like mass murder is wrong.

The deaths of at least a million Iraqis doesn’t equate to mass murder?

As I recall Code Pink was not running. You had two choices= McCain the Asshole and Obama The Man of Compromise. You made the right choice. You are really saying that Americans are weak and cannot deal with reality. Maybe this is true.

No Mary it doesn’t. It was an immoral war and occupation of choice not necessity done to advance Bush and Cheney’s neo-con agenda and to enrich their corporate benefactors and war profiteers. I would not call it mass murder and you do none of us a favor by calling it that.

I’m done.
Whoever this person is has abandoned the constitution.
The laws were written for a reason, that all men were created equals.

Apparently this is a minor annoyance.

Bullshit.

Mary I said Code Pink parenthetically to make the point that this is a country that will always seek out the middle. It will never be a Socialist and/or far-left progressive country. I and many others have realized this, including Barack Obama, and we are seeking to get all that we can while we are in power.

Sorry that I don’t choose to drink the entire cup of kool-aid Bustednuckles. You might consider showing me the same respect I show you.

I am making a cogent and intellectually honest argument — you can choose to disagree but please keep it civil.

late night up at the mothership

You sir, have taken the argument to the personal. You consider that we are not critical, independent thinkers because we don’t agree with you on this point. In the big wide world the folks that comment here would be considered middle or slightly to the left. In the USA we are wild eyed liberals. And Eckart Tolle is a man who lives in a fantasy world.

you do none of us a favor by calling it that; I disagree; I appreciate the term mass murder in this context, it is descriptive and accurate and it was what was and is being perpetrated by liars and murderers who should be held accountable, not roaming free and making big cash giving speeches revising history.

There is the problem, you aren’t showing any respect, for me, the law or this countries heritage.

I can certainly agree with you that I would like nothing better than to see Obama turn this mess around, I voted for him too.
Fortunately, I had reservations and am not overly surprised at what I am seeing though.

I don’t know how long you have been around here but I have been paying attention for quite a while now and it is beyond a shadow of a doubt that many, many laws were broken by the Bush administration and your lack of interest in prosecuting these people leaves a giant, gaping hole in your arguments to live and let live.
I take it you would have no problem with President Obama doing exactly these same things?

Characterizing people who disagree with you as emotional and lusting for revenge is respectful? Your #11 is completely rude, monsieur holier than thou. Pragmatism doesn’t have much to do with honesty at all, in my opinion.
And another thing; if you came braced for being piled on, how come you can’t provide a link to your repeated assertions that everyone knows what the Bush administration did and it is in the public record?(wrt the pictures.)

yea.

Because Dru I am not obligated to Google for you. There have been countless discussions on political talk shows and many written articles on this and I think you know that. Everyone knows we water boarded, everyone knows about the abuses at Abu Graib, there have been many pictures of that released.

I am referring to the movement to have these new pictures released – not demeaning well meaning persons individually.

But just because you asked nicely . . . here’s a couple of thousand pages for you to read.

http://www.google.com/#hl=en…..HAbtGzS2yM

I feel that the pictures at Abu Graib had a huge impact on the outcome of the election. Obama is in power because the evidence started coming out.

Here’s what I stand for. Have at me:

I care about ending terrorism not emboldening terrorists, about fighting disease and poverty worldwide, about rejecting torture, about affordable energy costs, about fighting global warming and developing sensible alternative energy sources, about quality education for our children, about tax and election reform, about keeping religion out of government and our schools, about caring for our senior citizens, about affordable prescription drugs, about providing quality health care for all, about creating good jobs, about protecting social security and medicaid, about sexual equality and homosexual rights, about not enabling corrupt and oppressive governments, about a woman’s right to chose and a fair immigration policy, about civil rights for all, about safeguarding the environment and protecting wildlife and about not opting to stimulate corporate profits and malfeasance at the expense of the working class of this country.

What an asshole retort.

Nice language Mary. Congrats!

Thanks, Jane, for helping lead the fight on this.

You specifically stated that everyone knows what the new pictures show: “Everyone knows what those photos portray – rape – torture – abuse – etc” now you are backpedaling to Abu Ghraib and waterboarding (old pictures.) A couple of thousand hits on google is a nice (and oh so hilarious) attempt at distraction, but you haven’t made the case for burying evidence of newly proven crimes which, if released, would result in an outcry from the American people for prosecution. Then all those scary complications that are frightening you so very much might be ameliorated. I think that if the US came clean about its criminal conduct, and actually observed those pesky laws and democratic institutions that we are always going on about, those scary brown people might start to respect us as a nation, once again. A little.

You don’t care about ending terrorism… you are defending them to the point of hiding photos of them and what their superiors ordered. That’s what our torturers are… the very core of terrorism. So is starting and perpetuating false wars.

You can’t end torture if you don’t demand full investigations and prosecutions of torture. It’s impossible. Criminal bullies don’t stop because you hide evidence of their acts and ask them nicely not to do it again. Hell, Cheney is still hammering away in support of torture on national television!

The Bush Cheney’s Rumsfelds…keep coming back… we have decades of proof. And we now have more young minions of theirs lined up, awaiting their chance to take it to the next step. And they will as long as their elders remain, rich and free.. in spite of their horrific crimes.

I could not have been anymore intellectually honest. I’ll do it again. Barack Obama has correctly made the judgment that he, Congress and the American people do not have the appetite or will to go down the path you want to. Furthermore, he has determined that the release of these additional photos will serve nothing but to inflame those in the Muslim world that wish us harm, put our soldiers and diplomats in jeopardy and take us backwards instead of forwards. I agree with Barack Obama and not Dru.

Eureka I do not believe we are terrorists because of the debacle that is Iraq. Is Canada a terrorist nation? Great Britain? Italy? Spain? Do you really think there is a moral equivalency there? Really? And you ‘can’ end torture – Barack Obama already did it.

Allow me.
Redfish, you have already passed my limit, this is for you.

http://www.amishrakefight.org/gfy/

“This is not a situation in which the Pentagon has concealed or sought to justify inappropriate action. In fact, the most direct consequence of releasing them, I believe, would be to further inflame anti-American opinion and to put our troops in greater danger.”

– Barack Obama

Congratulations Bustednuckles for sending me a link to a page that tells me to “go f*** myself. This is typical of most intellectually deficient people who having lost a debate, resort to vulgarity, ad hominem attacks and name calling. I can remember another who did exactly the same thing, his name is Dick Cheney and you are no different than he is.

Senator Whitehouse, February 25, 2009, in the senate floor…
Below is the last seven paragraphs… (and I agree with Whitehouse, and not redfish)
All bold is mine:

As Harry Truman said, addressing a joint session of Congress back in 1947:

One of the chief virtues of a democracy is that its defects are always visible, and under democratic processes can be pointed out and corrected.

We have to learn the lessons from this past carnival of folly, greed, lies, and wrongdoing so the damage can, under democratic processes, be pointed out and corrected. If we bind ourselves to this history, we deny ourselves its lessons, lessons that came at too painful a cost to ignore.

Those lessons merit disclosure and discussion. Indeed, disclosure and discussion makes the difference between this history being a valuable lesson for the bright and upward forces of our democracy or a blueprint for those darker forces to return and someday do it all over again. As we work toward a brighter future ahead, to days when jobs return to our cities, capital to our businesses, and security to our lives, we cannot set aside our responsibility to take an accounting of where we are, what was done, and what must now be repaired. We also have to brace ourselves for the realistic possibility that as some of this conduct is exposed, we and the world will find it shameful, revolting. We may have to face the prospect of looking with horror at our own country’s deeds.

We are optimists, we Americans. We are proud of our country. Contrition comes hard to us. But the path back from the dark side may lead us down some unfamiliar valleys of remorse and repugnance before we can return to the light. We may have to face our fellow Americans saying to us: No, please, tell us we did not do that, tell us Americans did not do that. And we will have to explain somehow.

This is no small feat and not easy. This will not be comfortable or proud, but somehow it must be done.

Chairman Leahy has embarked on the process of considering a new commission, one appropriate to the task of investigating the damage the Bush administration did to America, to her finest traditions and institutions, to her reputation and integrity. The hearing he has called in coming days will more thoroughly examine this question to help us determine how best to move forward. I stand with him. Before we can repair the harm of the last 8 years, we must learn the truth.

We have to do this. We don’t, and we doom some future generation to what this generation is about to cope with – catastrophic breakdown of all institutions of government and governance. We have to swallow this medicine. We are duty-bound.

Maybe but I would have given a dollar to see the look on yer face.

“This is a time for reflection, not retribution. I respect the strong views and emotions that these issues evoke. We have been through a dark and painful chapter in our history. But at a time of great challenges and disturbing disunity, nothing will be gained by spending our time and energy laying blame for the past. Our national greatness is embedded in America’s ability to right its course in concert with our core values, and to move forward with confidence. That is why we must resist the forces that divide us, and instead come together on behalf of our common future”.

– Barack Obama

I loves me some Bustednuckles!

I think you came here expecting to find some kind of cult of personality, chained to President Obama and lockstepping his policies on the Internet – this is just a guess.

You have no idea how wrong you are, and you are to be forgiven this egregious misconception.

This is typical of most intellectually deficient people who having lost a debate

I have news for you, honey. Busted didn’t think he was losing anything cept maybe his lunch.

Your guess is wrong. I am quite familiar with Firedoglake and Jane and agree with most of the views expressed here, most of the time. Just not this one. I was quite clear as to what I believe and why. I’m sorry you don’t support Preident Obama on this issue.

Most American’s agree with me, not you.

“Nearly three out of four people questioned in a CNN/Opinion Research Corp. survey do not believe that the U.S. government should release the photos including 62 percent of Democrats in agreement and three out of four independents.

“Obama has been getting some pressure from the liberal wing of his party to release the photos, but six in 10 liberals in the poll say that the photos should not be made publicly available,” CNN Polling Director Keating Holland said.

You are all members of a small fringe minority on this issue. Most liberals do not agree with you.

On this we will never agree. Nice to know a million dead.. and millions of refugees in Iraq (who never once attacked us) is just a debacle. Don’t you recall stories about our troops running out of bullets just before the surge? I seriously doubt we ran out while shooting cans.

Even if saint Barack is all you believe.. he is doing all he can on so many levels (including suppression of evidence) to make sure..in 4 or 8 years those neo-criminals come right back into power with more legal cover than they ever had before, to do it again.

Anyway, it’s funny how the only way you have a chance of maintaining your position is to support suppression of evidence. All I demand is let that decision be made after allowing that evidence to be seen by we the people and a judge in a court of law. I always thought that was the American way at it’s best… you know the kind of thing we or our troops really should fight for.

You or barack..want our troops out of danger.. bring them home now. I will bet you the farm not one fighter jet or highly armed bass boat will follow them home. What a bunch of cowards we have in America.

If the sign of fidelity to the nation were that we all agreed with you, we would be over at your blog. We are not.
If the sign of fidelity to the country is blind allegiance to the views of the President, we would be Republicans and he would be George Bush.

as moderator i must warn you redfish that personal attacks such as that are not permitted at the lake.

continuing to insult and attack other comments will result in your comments being moderated

Thank you moderator. I assume you will also warn the poster below who directed me to a website that told me to go f*** myself. Or is this really about censoring someone who has a different point of view?

Bustednuckles June 7th, 2009 at 9:40 pm – 52

Allow me.Redfish, you have already passed my limit, this is for you.

http://www.amishrakefight.org/gfy/

i’m surprised you fell for that old trick redfish – that site has been well known as a internet prank site for years.

I didn’t. I just pointed it out to him. I’m surprised you countenance him doing so though.

That’s ok though, I understand when I post here what the reaction will be when I don’t fully embrace the “approved progressive framing”. I don’t expect fair and equal treatment.

mary – back off. i’ll remove your insults just as fast as i removed his of you.

It’s all just a debacle. Obama will be king forever.. he can do no wrong… even when he does things exactly like or worse than his predecessors.

You do know he didn’t have to protect the torturers at all, don’t you? Just like you don’t have to do so. All he had to do was support impartial investigations by a special prosecutor and he would have had all the cover needed to keep out of it.

But I guess for anyone who disagrees with you we should all just go wear pink or figure out how to suppress/ignore facts and crimes… especially when our criminal does it.

In any event, I think there is plenty of room on the left side of the aisle for vigorous debate and agreeing to disagree on certain issues. I personally see great value in a certain degree of political pragmatism which I believe could lead to a second Obama term and perhaps two more Supreme Court justices. I think the positives that can be accomplished in two Obama terms trumps any perceived advantages that some of those here think might be gained in a contentious, bloody fight that tears the country apart.

Eureka, I did not say it i just a debacle nor do I anoint Obama king. I just happen to support him on this issue. I disagree with Obama on some things, I make my own decisions as to what I think is right.

Obama did not protect the torturers. He made a decision that he felt was in the best interest of the country as a whole. One could compare it to Ford’s pardon of Nixon in some respects — another act that was attacked by the left; many of whom later publicly said that Ford did the right thing.

Hey, Redfish, the only way you can be sure you are really getting their goat is when they ignore you completely, and will not deign to respond.

good sparring though! hope everyone had fun.

my point, though it may be too late, is that there is not some ’movement’ like you allude to in 41 that is making this issue inconvenient for the Obama administration, its decisions of Federal Judges, ruling that according to US law and the Constitution, the Govt is obligated to release the photos of its taxpayer funded actions.

thats where newtonusr was coming from at 55, and you pay him a compliment on the strength of his point . . . by ignoring it!

thats you do it in the progressosphere – I can tell you’ve got the hang of it.

I see nothing in his 55 post detailing any judicial decision that makes the release of the photos obligatory. I don’t think that’s the case and it’s certainly not conclusive as is evidenced by Obama’s decision not to release the photos.

It is truly astounding to me though that will all on our collective plates; Iraq, Afghanistan, the economy, gay and lesbian rights, abortion, the environment, Iran, North Korea, the Middle East, immigration, etc. that any reasonable person would think it wise to drag the country into a bloody civil war regurgitating the sins of Bush – Cheney. It’s a supremely selfish and myopic position to take in my opinion.

Good night all. Thanks for the exchange.

# 51 Eureka I do not believe we are terrorists because of the debacle that is Iraq

# 73 Eureka, I did not say it i just a debacle

The wars absolutely need not be on our plate. No need whatsoever. hiding photos, protecting the big lies..which is what the liars were torturing for… to get more lies. That insures the validity of needless wars does not come into question.

Who was Fords right hand men, there Red? Cheney and Rummy. Who was head of CIA at that time? Bush Sr.

They all learned how to keep accountability off the table then..and only got worse with every step forward.

How many people know those facts and what they meant for the next 35 plus years, support Fords pardon of Nixon?

I do not understand the obsession with semantics Eureka. I called Iraq a debacle and it is. I did not limit it to that. But we are not terrorists, we had a horrific administration — they’re gone. I choose to look to the future.

I think Obama understands the gravity of the world situation today and has generally made the right decisions. I think that Iran and North Korea and the continued battle to stop those that would kill us is what Obama should be focusing on along with a myriad of other issues. Not, regurgitating the past.

Bush is gone, Rumsfeld is gone and Cheney is a pathetic icon of the right who chooses to bla bla bla on TV every now and then. We’re moving on.

War crimes are fine when a right winger is doing it, but if a Democrat causes the death of one person, they will be brought to the Hague. See?

Oh yeah, and don’t forget: BLOW JOBS ARE ILLEGAL IF A DEMOCRAT GETS ONE OUTSIDE HIS MARRIAGE. They’re fine if a republican gets one. See?

Please give me an example of a disparity in war crime justice bis-a-vis a Democrat and Republican. I have no idea what you are talking about.

sp vis-a-vis

How sad and misguided that a handful of congressional Democrats are willing to side with the most reactionary of right-wing Republicans to try and defeat HR2346. (albeit for different reasons)

The net result will be to prevent Obama from keeping the commitment he made at the G20 in April, namely for the US to guaranty loans to help poor countries weather the economic meltdown. Nice work “faux progressives”. Who cares what the poor need right? After all, they have an agenda to stick to. Releasing photos, humiliating the US and endangering US diplomats and soldiers overseas.