Minor edit needed – first link “Facebook fan page” is broken.

OT: I saw a trailer for “Glen Beck Common Sense live” comedy tour last week before watching Star Trek.

Common sense is a Tom Paine revolutionary war tract so it seems like he’ll be entertaining some number of people with humor about fighting against oppression. There’s also some clever revolutionary war humor in the “laugh or Die” along with the flag used to promote it.

Count on it being heavily promoted on Fox. I’m curious how big the Teabagger audience will be – wont be going myself.

The folks at CAP are just wrong on this. I’m old enough to remember all the prosecutions during Watergate. I’ve always felt the biggest mistake of that era was when Ford pardoned Nixon.

Then when Iran/Contra led to half-a**’d prosecutions because Congress screwed up the investigation and most of the miscreants either got off or were pardoned, it set the stage for the last 8 years.

If we don’t have criminal prosecutions for law breaking, then in 20 years, the “veterans” of the Bush II admin will once again have finagled their way back to power and the US will go through it all again. There needs to be a stop.

Jane,

have read and re-read Yglesias’ comments – and I don’t want to bash him but “I wouldn’t complain” sounds dilettante-ish. I’m with you Jane, this is not something I ever expected to see

Well, we’re back. Thanks for this, Jane. KagroX is a hero. It’s nice to see him…for some reason I always assumed he was much older. Guess it’s because he’s so wise!

The same kind of people probably said it wasnt necessary to have the Nuremberg Trials either – no need to look back – everybody just wants to go forward now.

It’s possible you need to be logged in to facebook to see this page.

I suspect there comes a time when every administration does something of questionable legality. I can’t shake the feeling that part of Obama’s motivation for not prosecuting Bush officials is to cover his own ass. Flawed logic if that is the case, since any Republican administration that follows him will prosecute members of his administration (if they can) without hesitation.

Whatever the motivation, torture is too great a transgression to simply let slide. Let the political chips fall where they will, history will judge favorably those who stood for the rule of law.

Ties in with what I witnessed and mentioned earlier.. Maher, Naomi Klein, now Yglesias.. all kinds of folks I would have never imagined are soft on war crimes.

Worked for me.

It is a sad situation when the words of George W Bush are a clearer statement of what I think America is about than the those of anyone from something called the Center for American Progress.
CAP can join NPR in the “Good Germans” aisle.

“…nobody is concerned anymore with what the Bush administration was doing and did…”

I guess that makes me a nobody.

The American people right now are actually not interested in this sideshow and this discussion. The American people are interested in looking forward — nobody is concerned anymore with what the Bush administration was doing and did

A few fake polls that show that Americans are not interested in torture but are concerned about the war and want the troops home seems sketchy, suspect, bull.
Repeating “facts” you pull out you MSM Pundit Ass might have worked back when voters were not paying attention.
It might have worked when the Main Stream Media had some Cred but after Judy Miller and the imaginary Weapons of Mass Destruction?
Nope Sorry

He also points to an article by Ken Gude, CAP’s associate director for international rights and responsibility, on Obama’s refusal to release the torture photos:

[W]e need to stop the constant drip of news and channel it into an authoritative, non-partisan, non-adversarial investigation into the Bush administration’s torture policies.

A liberal said this? The constant drip of news about torture is dominating the news especially as a slow news season summer approaches.
There is nothing else for them to the MSM to talk about.
Unless they want to talk about the economy seriously Happy Talk about the economy just causes a channel change.
Public Pressure is growing we need to keep the pressure on and get more details and photos released.
The GOP will leap at a Truth Commission soon especially if they have control over the official findings but it may be to late for that the public wants answers.

Thanks for the work of the FDL and FDL oxdown diarists on this topic.

I’ve been looking and cannot find it now, but Glenn Greenwald had an interveiw with an international human rights lawyer, and the bottom line is simple: The US has a treaty obligiation to conduct of thorough and fair investigation to determine whether there is reason to believe that any laws were broken. That is our obligation, in a treaty, signed by Ronald Reagan, back when conservatives still had some principles (even if many were mistaken).

Futhermore, Glenn’s blog shows a Gallup poll today showing that 64% of the US public wants either a crminal investigation or an independent panel investigation.

So, what is there to talk about? It’s the law, and the public favors following the law.

The miserable corrupt and rotting national media do not want their corrupt and rotting little society torn apart. But an investigation will not tear the country apart.

About 20% of the country and their paid PR hacks will claim that it is tearing the country apart, the that nutjob 20% has already proclaimed the country torn apart over policies that so far, make Truman and Eisenhower look like communists. They are ready to secede over an Democratic administratio that so far, is Bush-lite in many ways. So who care waht these nutballs think?

I think there is one message that has be hammered out over and over: The US has an obligation under international law to investigate thoroughly and the public supports following the law. What’s the hold up?

Our political leadership has improved slightly since the Cheney/Bush years, but is still very weak and timid. It still is behaving immorally, spinning its own incompetence and cowardice and corruption into a hilarious tale of bravery in forging ahead to spare the country from further trauma. (Sorry Obamaughts, but I don’t see how this is some deep strategy).

Just look at old clips of FDR, Truman and Eisenhower and look at this weak pitable crew now. This is not about whether the previous dudes were totally better, or good, or whatever. It about the simple fact that they could push back against bad faith and dishonesty, call BS BS, call stupid stupid, and tell poltiical nutcases and grifters to go to hell, in public. Mr. Bipartisan Hopey Changey? Not so much. I still support him, and most of his policies, and hope his good proposals succeed, but let us be honest.

There are some issues -torture, the economic reform, global warming, that I think ouir political system is too broken and corrupt to deal with. The only hope is to get the truth out to the people and press ahead with more electoral gains.

The tide is slowly turning. Now it looks like some of the big name Villagers are copying from the DFH bloggers, though they will not admit it (See Dowd plagiarism flap)

Ooooooh. Kargo X was goooood. I’ve never seen him before, and I thought he was extraordinary. Hope to see much much more of him on my teevee.

As a big fan of ThinkProgress, it is very disappointing that a representative of CAP would try to minimize the importance of torture by saying that Americans want to “look forward”. There is nothing ahead of us worth seeing if war crimes become accepted practice.

They might be folks who want to protect Pelosi and Company…where is Hoyer and Reid do they have her back.

Any judge that did not convict torture on good evidence would be in disrepute…ACLU, Frontier and Human Rights groups will never give torture a pass…

That and if America does not do something how long before Condi and Cheney get word the EU has warrants out for them?
The embarrassment that would cause is too big to ignore the Right will respond with a full court press of OUTRAGE which will keep the story going.
That and the Justice Dept will have to respond not only about torture but what will it do if Cheney and Bush are detained.
Low level policy makers like Condi could get arrested at any time maybe without the State Dept getting a heads up.

I added an update. She apologized and did so in a very honorable way, much to her credit. Big props.

Judy is baaaack.

Yes, Jane, thanks. Let’s keep on listening when a pundit announces, “This is what the American people want.” Hubris in our media class.

It is hard to face evil. But it is necessary. The only people who are vibrating with repulsion and collective shame for the atrocities of our country are the sociopaths who structured and launched the horrors. And in a culture where style beats substance, there is crazymaking dissonance having the liars spin more webs, doing their talking point drum beats to RESPECTFUL media interviewers.

I know I wonder where is the outrage on this. The outrage as the Blue Dogs enable the banks, not their supposed constituents.

All the slings and arrows, bigger than that, actually, hitting us, but the torture is especially and exponentially surreal. I watched the Frontline expose on torture and literally was nauseous by the end. And what of the detainees who were inadvertently killed by overzealous interrogators? What double standard is this? Involuntary manslaughter? No?

And only one guard from Abu Ghraib behind bars. And that is supposed to be a closed book according to upper ranks. Of course they want it closed. Trickled down responsibility. “Bad apples” spin was last legal prosecution period, right? Not that he shouldn’t be there … but yet more double standard. The immune upper elite one more time.

Maybe Obama dealing with professional courtesy. Stains of covert ops reach back to former presidents. I thought when Charlie Rose asked Carter, who was venting about George W’s incompetence, whether Bush should be impeached, Carter was going to faint! “NO!” he exclaimed and Rose soothingly changed the subject.

Remember that old movie, “Z” about Greece. Prosecutions finally did lead to hope, until military aborted, pulled the plug. Hope extinguished, good guys extinguished.

“The American people are interested in looking forward…”

Tell that to Bush and Cheney, who spent lots of time looking back at their glorious war.

Some examples:

“When we look back at the initial chapters of the 21st century we will say we’ve done our duty; we defended the United States of America, and we laid the foundation for peace to come.” – George W. Bush

“One day, people will look back at this moment in history and say, ‘Thank God there were courageous people willing to serve because they laid the foundation for peace for generations to come.’”- George W. Bush

“I’m convinced 50 years from now people will look back and say thank God there were people who were willing to sacrifice.” – George W. Bush

“And one of the interesting — I think when people look back at the history of the Middle East and history of the world it’s going to be women who helped lead the freedom agenda.” – George W. Bush

“I’m convinced that when people look back at this era, they’re going to say, thank goodness the United States of America never abandoned its belief that freedom is universal.” – George W. Bush

“I believe that one day an American President will be talking about the world in which he is making decisions, or she is making decisions, and they’ll look back and say, thank goodness a generation of Americans understood the universality of liberty and the fact that freedom can change troubled parts of the world into peaceful parts of the world.” – George W. Bush

“Someday an American President and a United States senator is going to look back at this generation’s call and say, thank goodness they stood true to the values America believes in — freedom; freedom to worship; human rights and human dignity — and help spread that to parts of the world.” – George W. Bush

“When the history is written, it will be said this is a safer country and more hopeful world because George Bush was president.” – Dick Cheney

If they can do it, so can Obama, Holder, Pelosi, and Reid.

Sorry, forgot to link the Dowd plagiarism flap.

Whoops

by dday

We all know that Maureen Dowd has been writing one story over and over again for the last decade – Democrats are feminized losers – so I suppose that her blatant plagiarism of Josh Marshall represents an attempt at being original.

http://digbysblog.blogspot.com…..ureen.html

(sorry no link just the URL, the autlink thingee is acting up again.)

p.s. How dare that woman call the discussion of torture a SIDESHOW! Whoa. The horrorifying torture scenarios, some leading to death. Doctors on hand to perform followup tracheotomies during overzealous waterboardings. What were THEY thinking???? And she calls discussions of the torture a “sideshow”?????? Rachel Maddow refers to this “ethical freakshow of a universe”. Oh yes.

I don’t think so. Pelosi wasn’t mentioned on the show. And the Maher show w/ Naomi and other “liberal” guests originally aired about 9 days ago.

I have no idea beyond this post what Yglesias is thinking.

After reading this (from Media Mouse) at the end of March, I took Think Progess off of my blog list:

“Last week, the liberal think-tank the Center for American Progress released a new report on the war in Afghanistan. Unlike the major anti-war groups and a growing coalition of bloggers who are organizing opposition to Obama’s Afghanistan policy, the Center for American Progress’ report came out in support of Obama’s policy and U.S. empire generally. Any disagreements with the administration were largely on the tactical level and did not challenge the overall policy.”

http://www.mediamouse.org/news…..troops.php

This latest news is not winning them back into my good graces.

What kind of message does it send to let these criminals walk when we all know what they did. I’m certain any number of people in prison would like to forget about the past and skate away from their crimes as well.

I want to know who ordered the torture and when, then I want prosecutions according to the law.

Good for her. Good for ThinkProgress.

Judy is back just how desperate is the GOP her Cred as an expert, a reporter and as a witness must give Cheney a run for his money.
Heck we are winning the debate if the GOP feels they have no choice but to bring in Judy Miller because things can’t get any worse.

Yes, thanks for the update. Glad to know that the CAP spokesperson corrected the record.

People on the teevee would find themselves in less trouble if they just stuck to basics: Ronald Reagan signed the treaty that said, at an absolute minimum, the US must conduct a fair and thorough investigation of all who may be involved, no matter how high. The majority of the population supports investigations. So, what is the hold up?

In fact, 38% of the population want a criminal investigation, according to the poll on Greenwald’s blog today. Even more, that is the plurality opinion, and is stricter than our international treaty obligations. The lawyer Greenwald interviewed said many kinds of investigation could be held and would be acceptable, as long as they did not cover up criminal acts. The interview did not go into much detail on that, so I do not know about whether immunity could be granted or not, etc. But it was clear that the intial investigation does not have to be a criminal one.

We need to press ahead with information like that, which I think will cut through the vapid BS one hears from the debased and suborned political operatives who are usually the only ones allowed to appear in the national media.

I hope Kagro X gets more chances in the media -he was very good and cut through the nonsense.

Hey.. it worked before, why wouldn’t they try it again?

Cause now everyone knows she is a liar? Lying don’t work so well after that.

I think every time we refer to her, it ought to be WMDJudy.

Did everyone forget the Iran Contra prosecutions that took place under the watchful eye of their beloved Ronny Raygun.

Ahh, but that was the impure vulgar fleshly historical Ronny, not the holy image of the ‘true’ St. Ronnie, cleansed and purified in the flame of the burning pile of garbage BS they need to sell right now.

The historical Ronny, the one that also raised income taxes, is not the true and eternal St Ronnie. Everyone knows that.

The answer why few on the “liberal” side have called for REAL action on torture is: they are Democrats. Unlike many bloggers, they fear that if a real investigation is done, some Democrats might be implicated.

Most liberal bloggers (at least the ones I read) say INVESTIGATE and let the chips fall where they may.

Sadly, going onthe publicly known facts, Obama is both violating a US treaty obligation (and one that we hyporcritically are very quick insist other nations observe), and flaunting the desire of the majority of US citizens.

From his public statements, Obama has instructed the DOJ to do some kind of limited assessment, of what we are not sure, and Obama has seemed to arbitrarily put certain people beyond the scope of any kind of investigation or sanction, with no public accounting.

I understand the importance of the “do-able” in politics, but I do not see how that is an issue here. 2/3 of the public is clearly asking for action, and looking for leadership on this issue, but are not getting it. As usual.

Our government has become a disgraceful empty shell. Need a big push in the next election to put more new people in Congress who are not compromised by the recent government crime spree.

no it was a broken link, fixed within a few minutes…

Never forget that the entire elected government in Washington D.C. and everywhere in the United States can be changed wholesale (100%) in 6 short years! We have the power. We are in charge. Not the “liberal” MSM.

Jane, thank you and Glenn for handling this so well. Liberal/progressives have to cut one another some slack. Big props to Ericka for amending her earlier comments.

Of course I want to look forward, not back.

That’s why we have to drive the prosecutorial stake through the heart of the Bush-Cheyney years, bury the remains in an unmarked grave, and compact the dirt really well.

Until and unless we definitively destroy the Bush-Cheyney conspiracy, we will all be looking over our shoulders.