One of the jokes Wanda Sykes made — and a joke that the TradMed wants to bury under criticism of her for picking on poor Rush Limbaugh — was about how justifying torture by saying that it can work (even though it doesn’t) is like justifying a bank robbery by saying that you just paid the bills using the loot.

That was a good one.

jane, great piece, I hope you can edit your number 2 from;

“It was torture for political gain”

to;

“It was torture to create deliberately false information”

or something more descriptive for what’s meant by “political gain”

you guys have to get a look at kirk murpy’s oxdown;

BREAKING: Scahill reports US tortures detainees with germ warfare and gasoline enemas. Semper Fi?

this is not getting any coverage and really needs some air time to get legs

oh my, I hadn’t seen this – and that Digby quote got to me as well so this is gonna be sweeeeet ! luvvvs me some Kagro

Thanks Jane, thanks Kagro.

I’m a huge fan of Dr. Murphy, (such a huge fan I did not mention it on his thread) but I think using “Semper Fi” is a tactical error. We are trying to sway people who are not liberals/progressives. We need military people to come out against torture.

I know what Dr. Murphy meant, but even a whiff of denigrating a symbol/saying that Marines hold dear, does not advance our position with people we need to convince. Worse it gives valuable ammunition to those who oppose us.

Thanks Jane. It tells us that you are paying attention and the MEM is spinning again, either for profit or cover.

MSM?

One of many great things Rachel Maddow does when talking to the military on her show is to say, “thank you for your service.”

Hello American Progress!

Progress this:

The American people only want to move forward if we can move forward within the Rule of Law and a restored American Democracy. Nothing less. So, that means, we need to investigate torture.

I think you are doing him a disservice by not sharing your opinion directly with him.

I agree with your point boo, but it is an amaizing piece he has up there

Thanks Jane , I have some strong feelings regarding this issue,we must not let this issue die!
The more I hear the more I realize just how fucked up the Bush Administration really was.
They were some depraved mothers.
There was nothing they wouldn’t do for political gain
They are a good example of the corruption that happens when a group has been in power too long

I forgot: Thank you Jane; I joined!

ps I joined too!!

Why might anyone here vote Dem because Dem is better than Repub?

I know the arguments.

But really. Why give credence to a system that is loyal to itself only?

I think there’s something about “hanging together or hanging separately”. Powerful argument that.

Agree.

MSM = mainstream media.

I personally prefer “corporate media” because it identifies the frame of the content.

One appropriate response to the torture disclosures is to run into the nearest john and vomit at the vileness of such gratuitous cruelty and malice. Even saying it was inappropriate because it was for inciting false confessions, yes, one fresh hell added onto it. But the bare essence of it is nauseating enough. All the yakkety yak talking points are “framing” torture as he said in video and acclimating the collective imagination to its surreality, although maybe 24 and Dick Cheney are helping the way.

Ironice that spin puts Pelosi into the center. Those Repubs with their media cronies every so adept … but there was a “don’t ask, don’t tell” thing going on with Dems who were half-hearted in fighting American jingoism in the name of justice for fear of losing votes or majority mandate. “In the name of the troops” … the Repubs used to cover up and hide and intimidate. What vile monsters.

Someone on ICH, I forget, calls it FCM I think. “Fawning Corporate Media.”

Twain, I respect your thinking.

But voting for A because A is Dem doesn’t work any more.

Go David! Tell it like it is!

why don’t you give us all a list of your favorite republicans?

Favorite Repubs: None.

Favorite Dems: Take your pick. My favorite: none.

Doesn’t seem to be working but right now we don’t have alternatives. Maybe in the future we will have a Progressive Party – I hope.

Thank you, Dru!

I like that one.

I want to vote for someone I like.

There is no one for whom I want to vote.

What the fact that torture was used to extract false confessions does is establish motive. Until the fact that people were tortured to make them say that Saddam and Al Quaida were connected came to light, I was puzzled about the Bush Administration’s motive. Was it just wanton cruelty? Vengeance? Blood lust? The fact that they were getting useful information through standard Geneva-conventions compatible methods and then the order came down to torture (and to press the Iraq-AQ connection) goes right to motive. Which is key in proving crime.

I’m not on Facebook but I oppose torture and I don’t know how those who don’t can sleep at night.

Great idea – I love the fact taht people started joining before you finished. Says something to those who want to “move on.”

Umm-technical question – I’m seeing the headings on the fb page in Russian, not just the cyrillic letters, translated, but everything in the text underneath, English.

I do have both Russian and English enabled in my computer settings, but this is odd. Changing to view optionns on IE toolbar hasn’t worked.
anybody have any suggestions?

I agree. I great piece by Jane, and a wonderful performance by David Waldman, holding his own against some ignorant talking heads (not an easy thing to do when you’re actually under the lights).

I think the torture for political gain theme is right, but so is your point, i.e., to create false intel. I’ll add even a third: for personal, financial gain, as the contractors were trying to cash in on the war on terror. And a fourth: for bureaucratic gain, as departments like JPRA were lobbying to get their piece of the interrogation pie, and cement their influence in the Pentagon and the budget-makers. And even a fifth: for professional gain, as the researchers who were gathering up all the data on 100s of sessions of waterboarding and other experimental EIT; the behavioral scientists in particular, who sat on their hands while SERE data on effects on prisoners/students was misrepresented, and now are likely studying the logs of the interrogations for reports that will be submitted in classified form. Their reward? Nice government contracts for their university department. The fact that some of these behavioral scientists also work for the CIA only completes the circle of government corruption and power grabbing.

I think Waldman caught the right tone: hone in on the use of torture to gain false confessions to justify an illegal and aggressive war in Iraq.

True sociopaths have no conscience. It’s easy for them because they can’t feel empathy.

Once we attempt to form a third party, it would unite the GOP and Democrats against us. I VERY MUCH doubt that the unions and black caucus would follow us. They simply have too much to lose. Without their support we’re not only politically impotent, the MSM would ignore us like the plague.

Add all that up and the “establishment” would block us from even getting candidates on the ballot. That includes local and state elections, as well as federal. The importance of a strong liberal presence at the local/precinct level cannot be overestimated.

While there are risks (and the Dimmocrats complicity on torture is one excellent example, banking is another), I think liberals/progressives have far more leverage right now inside the Democratic party.

OT, maintaining the threat of the possibility of a third party is important leverage imho.

I know that reasonable people differ on this.

Neither am I.

I’m reconsidering my position.

Jane,

Thank you for this effort and post.

Jeff,

Well written. Your third, fourth and fifth points go to the heart of the list of questions Graham put fourth.

I think Waldman caught the right tone: hone in on the use of torture to gain false confessions to justify an illegal and aggressive war in Iraq.

Agree. Operative word: illegal.

Thanks.

I leave something on the thread.

I just watched the video. Cheers for kagrox/David Waldman. He kept on point, kept dragging the idiots back to it, and making the idiots look like idiots.

But, WTF? What’s the center for am prog woman? Unbe-f-ing-lievable.

What’s with the Barbie and Ken “news” people on CNN? It’s like watching glee club high schoolers hosting some sort of mock roundtable for a class exercise.

But yeah, Kagro X just calmly said the truth. And that bowtie guy is an obvious tool, claiming he didn’t understand the parallels with the Spanish Inquisition. Duh, that was all about torture for political purposes (yes, it was the Catholic Church, but they were being used as a political tool of repression).

The fact that they were getting useful information through standard Geneva-conventions compatible methods and then the order came down to torture…

Well, we don’t really know that, so we shouldn’t assume. This version of what happened is based on the testimony of people like Soufan. But his testimony also revealed they were interrogating prisoners who had been subjected to isolation and sleep deprivation, sensory deprivation and psychologically disorienting environmental manipulation (24 hr. lights, cold, etc.)

If anything, it looks as if they were using torture from the very beginning in Afghanistan (the hoods, goggles, the closed boxes). The EIT didn’t come along until probably Dec. 2001 or Jan-Feb. 2002 at the earliest. But that doesn’t mean they weren’t torturing and/or abusing prisoners. Remember, please, everybody: the EIT was only one form of torture program they were using. It was oriented towards physical torture; the other, older, KUBARK-style torture is more oriented towards psychological torture.

A majority of Americans have been evading responsibility for their government’s actions domestically and abroad for years….Decades, to be more precise.
I’m not surprised by this trend toward replacing their heads in the sand at all…So many ‘beautiful minds’ that wish to remain unspoiled.

I predict diminished foreign sympathy over the next domestic terror event, based on this posture…I feel this urge myself, in spite of my avowed positive attitude toward the U.S.A.
The rationales used by the potential perpetrators for such a horror are being created right now, under the carpet that all this dirt is being swept under…But it won’t stay hidden forever.

‘As ye sow, so shall ye reap’

What do you mean, this is just coming from “people like Soufan?” People with actual hands-on, in the interrogation room, doing the interrogations-experience?

Soufan is hardly alone.
Check out, for example, the book by “Matthew Alexander,” a former Air Force interrogator, whom Rachel has interviewed. It’s a wonderful example of how non-torture techniques worked spectacularly, while torture failed.

And along the way, shows how politics and careerism affected the folks on the ground and their ability to make the right decisions to get the information needed. Englightening.
Oh, the book’s title is “How to Break a Terrorist.” My library has it.

Too sad to contemplate, darkblack.

Obama’s election was going a long way toward reversing that slide of our reputation – surely he realizes these recent Bush-like decisions will not restore America’s reputation. I don’t understand it.

Hope we’re not going to have to travel with maple leaves appliqued to our backpacks/totes/purses again. I voted for O to do just that, piece together our tattered rep among those who used to respect us.

You are right, and I’ll back down some. There were professional, non-coercive interrogations done in-theater. I guess I’m still smarting from the accolades Soufan got and no one noticed or cared he was willing to use some form of non-Geneva compliant coercive interrogation, and all because he was willing to speak out against the contractors/CIA EIT.

I stand corrected. However, I still believe the amount of torture was far more widespread than is generally known. That’s one reason, btw, Obama didn’t want to release the photos of the military’s abuse of prisoners. It wasn’t just Abu Ghraib.

The only silver lining that I might imagine, T., is the thought that Obama, knowing that he is a captive of events to a great degree (from banks and financial instruments, to the masters of war who desire armed global conflict), is ‘hoping’ that a groundswell of outrage will force his hand against the elements that direct his policy…In effect, being able to turn and say, ‘See? I have no choice…I wanted to do your bidding, but the people have spoken and I must act, if only so as not to give the game away.’

The alternative, of course, being that he is fully complicit with them and this has been a charade all along.

Maple leaves on your backpacks won’t save you then…not even from us.

it is an odd feeling hearing utterly truthful statements squeezing through the dedicated instrument of disinformation by a man of honor and integrity, David Waldman.

is this the beginning of the (meteoric) fall of the media superstars?

There is no argument on the other side to lose to. All they have lis lies, obfuscation, misdirection, manufactured outrage and pathetic distractions, and defamation.

The truth will out, though perhaps slowly. As the truth sinks in, the popular pressure for an accounting will grow, and something will happen. At the very least, I think the U.S. will eventually agree to our minimum treaty obligations (as I understand them from reading Greenwald) of holding honest and thorough investigations. It is important to not give up, since our democracy and honor and national security depend on defeating the torture-crats.

darkblack – that’s my hope, too. I like to think that if this whole “world economic collapse” thing hadn’t hit just as he came in, he would have focused more on the torture/detained-illegally etc. s***t, but that he feels he can only handle so much at a time.
That hope is weakening some, though.

JeffKaye – actually, having read Matthew Alexander’s book, I have to agree with you. What was going on in his small geographic area, where he struggled with interrogators who believed in questioning by fear, etc., had to be going on in many, many places.
Maybe keeping the pictures back for now isn’t even such a bad idea. I do believe the fact of torture is more important than the pix of torture – but having them shown over and over on Arab tv might just stir up some folks who need an excuse to join the ‘jihad.’ Not sure about that, but I can cut more slack on that decision than on continuing military commissions, for example.

The best defense for sanctioning torture is that capital punishment has not been abolished. Didn’t Sam Spade say that torture only works if the threat of death is part of it? President Obama has not abolished torture, he’s criminalized it. Maybe he only abolished finks. “The President” has too much unilateral, unchecked power. Specter said so when Reagan invaded Grenada. So what? Bush invaded Panama, likewise his son invaded Iraq.

Great stuff denigrated by a couple of tactical mistakes. Leave the “worst since Spanish Inquisition” out. Irrelevant. A bit hyperbolic. Allowed the wingnut to tangent. And don’t shout over top of the repsonses. Let them speak and then demolish their weak ass arguments. Truth is on our side. Let’s be smart about how we present it.

Listening to radio yesterday ( remember that propoganda tool of the 1930’s
during the Republican Great Depression? ) a good point was made, and that
was – the rest of the world’s media has shown a lot of these torture pictures that haven’t been allowed on our M (corporate) SMedia here in Amerika. Obama isn’t going to change world opinion with-holding the pictures from us, we are the ostriches with our heads in the sand, the world already knows just how bad it is. G. Herbert Hoover Bush was just mad at the Israili’s for bombing the Reactor in Iraq in the ’80’s without
his knowing about it beforehand. ( He was sleeping at the Bilderburger Con-
ference and missed it!) so he had to spin up the invasion of Kuwaitt. What
comes out of Athens this weekend, will probably try to throw us off the path to some kind of sober return to an administration like JFK’s. F*&^
the G$$ D*** Republican B***S###, and their CIA Imperialist Lacky Boys. Good going Jane, I’ll try to help Marcy too, James B. Stockdale was my Hero.

“(AP 11:28 a.m. CT, Tues., Dec . 14, 2004)

WASHINGTON – President Bush awarded the nation’s highest civilian honor Tuesday to three men central to his Iraq policy, saying they had played “pivotal roles in great events.”

Bush presented the Presidential Medal of Freedom to retired Gen. Tommy Franks, who oversaw combat in Afghanistan and the initial invasion of Iraq, former CIA Director George Tenet and former Iraq administrator L. Paul Bremer.”

These three were essential to the initial implementation of the Bush/Cheney torture regimen in Afghanistan and Iraq. They were at the top of the torture chain of command, holding key positions between the torture-mongerers in the Bush/Cheney administration and those contracted or ordered to torture detainees in Afghanistan and Iraq.

No wonder these three were awarded the Medal of Freedom…for their “service” to the Bush/Cheney torture-mongers…because if these three had balked at having detainees tortured like former Attorney General Ashcroft and FBI Director Mueller apparently did, then war crimes might not have been committed.

Hmmmm, Ashcroft and Mueller didn’t receive a Medal of Freedom, did they? This is an instance in which not being bestowed the “honor” of a Medal of Freedom by the Bush/Cheney administration is actually a sign of honor for those not receiving it. Just like everything touched by George W. Bush and Dick Cheney, the Medal of Freedom has been tainted, bloodied by the countless detainees tortured on their orders.

I haven’t read Alexander’s book, but I did read Tony Lagournais’s Fear Up Harsh: An Army Interrogator’s Dark Journey Through Iraq. It’s an eye opener, and shows how regular Army interrogators were pressured to get info, any info, and how even a good interrogator found himself slipping into more and more abusive techniques, until he had to quit to save his soul. I’ll reiterate that my categorical statement re all non-EIT interrogations may have been too strong. But from what you say about Alexander’s book, and what I read in Lagouranis’s book, my belief that torture and cruel, inhumane and degrading treatment was widespread is in its large outlines correct.

As ye sow, so shall ye reap’
Sow the wind reap the whorlwind.

Someone is right on the television!

Heroic indeed.

Who was that other GREAT lefty who was on talking head TV shows? He was gooooood. He didn’t let the wingnuts talk him down. He gave them what they deserved. If they interrupted him, he kept talking. Sadly as soon as the MSM figured out how good he was, they stopped asking him on.

Damn it! I can’t remember his name! I think his last name started with S.

Yes, Kagro is great. But I fear he will have the same ending as this other guy did. In effect, he is too good. We simply CAN’T have that, can we?

I remembered. Cliff Schecter.

More of David Waldman.
Waking us from our induced walking coma is a big job!
Waldman got 4:57, and he went off like my rooster.

The American people are not interested in this side show?
Side show?
She, they, the incessant chatter is the eye-glazing, brain-numbing side show.

Wake up America, and take responsibility for the contractors and the manipulators we elected.

I think both parties are corrupt. There a right wing and left wing third parties, that I think should have representation in goverment too. The greens and libertarians have formed a votepact. For every would be libertarian leaning republican that promises to vote for the libertarian instead of a republican a green lean dem can vote for a real green. That way we can tell both parties to take a hike without playing spoiler. Both Libertarians and Greens respect the constitution more than the demopublicans, so this will be a really good consensus.

“Despite this, 75% of the country want torture investigations.”

this is a dead link – please find the survey and fix this. It’s too important!!

~~~ModNote: This is the link, and it is also repaired at the original.~~~

Brilliant, brilliant, brilliant. That’s probably the the best job by any torture opponent I’ve seen in the past few months. He hits the key points and sticks to them. His opponents can only attack him on propriety – they don’t attack his facts. That’s because they got nuthin’.