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	<title>Comments on: Franken-Coleman Update, 04/08/09: The Peeps Have Spoken</title>
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	<link>http://fdlaction.firedoglake.com/2009/04/08/franken-coleman-update-040809-the-peeps-have-spoken/</link>
	<description>Politics for liberal newsgeeks</description>
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		<title>By: BargainCountertenor</title>
		<link>http://fdlaction.firedoglake.com/2009/04/08/franken-coleman-update-040809-the-peeps-have-spoken/#comment-25675</link>
		<dc:creator>BargainCountertenor</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Apr 2009 05:32:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://campaignsilo.firedoglake.com/2009/04/08/franken-coleman-update-040809-the-peeps-have-spoken/#comment-25675</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Sander,&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Legislative term limits haven’t worked anywhere they’ve been tried.  For better or worse, we have lobbyists as an unelected fourth branch of government.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;What happens with term limits is that about the time an elected official understands how the system works, they are out.  Lobbyists don’t have term limits, and they do understand how the system works.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Changing offices means changing systems — the House and the Senate operate under different rules, and the power centers are different.  Every government is slightly different, and the power centers are somewhat different.  Until an elected official understands where the power centers are and how to work within those centers, they aren’t terribly effective.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;For example, here in New Mexico the President Pro-tempore of the State Senate is a much more powerful official than the title suggests.  The Pro-tem controls Senate committee appointments and conference committee appointments.  The pro-tem also controls a large chunk of the capital outlay budget.  These powers are largely a residual effect of the efforts of Manny Aragon.  It’s possible that the power gathered in that office will dissipate, but it isn’t a given.  A lot depends on the officials holding the office now (and in the future).&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;These are the sorts of things that determine how a government entity works.  They are historical contingencies, and so they can’t be predicted.  With term limits the people who understand the history are the lobbyists.  It’s a lobbyist’s job to use that information in the service of their masters.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;At least with professional pols, we can sometimes convince them that opposing their lobbyist buddies is a good idea.  Term limits remove that possibility by ensuring that all of the voting members are transient.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Term limits in the executive branch are somewhat different.  I’m not convinced any longer that they’re a great idea.  Think about 2000 if the election was Dubya vs. the Big Dog.  Most everyone I know believes that Clinton would have cleaned Bushie’s clock.  Clinton is a much better campaigner than Gore on Al’s best day, and way better than Bush on every day.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;We’re going to be in a similar situation with Obama.  If he’s as effective a President as I hope he will be, he’ll be much too young to retire when he’s term-limited out.  Additionally, the two-term limit on Presidents makes them lame ducks after the third year of their first term, win or lose.  Without term limits, there is the threat that the President will run again.  With that threat, Congress has to take them more seriously.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Term limits were a good idea that doesn’t work in practice.  It’s possible that term limits might work with public financing of elections.  Remove legal bribery from lobbyists, and maybe you can remove enough power from lobbyists to help the citizenry.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sander,</p>
<p>Legislative term limits haven’t worked anywhere they’ve been tried.  For better or worse, we have lobbyists as an unelected fourth branch of government.</p>
<p>What happens with term limits is that about the time an elected official understands how the system works, they are out.  Lobbyists don’t have term limits, and they do understand how the system works.</p>
<p>Changing offices means changing systems — the House and the Senate operate under different rules, and the power centers are different.  Every government is slightly different, and the power centers are somewhat different.  Until an elected official understands where the power centers are and how to work within those centers, they aren’t terribly effective.</p>
<p>For example, here in New Mexico the President Pro-tempore of the State Senate is a much more powerful official than the title suggests.  The Pro-tem controls Senate committee appointments and conference committee appointments.  The pro-tem also controls a large chunk of the capital outlay budget.  These powers are largely a residual effect of the efforts of Manny Aragon.  It’s possible that the power gathered in that office will dissipate, but it isn’t a given.  A lot depends on the officials holding the office now (and in the future).</p>
<p>These are the sorts of things that determine how a government entity works.  They are historical contingencies, and so they can’t be predicted.  With term limits the people who understand the history are the lobbyists.  It’s a lobbyist’s job to use that information in the service of their masters.</p>
<p>At least with professional pols, we can sometimes convince them that opposing their lobbyist buddies is a good idea.  Term limits remove that possibility by ensuring that all of the voting members are transient.</p>
<p>Term limits in the executive branch are somewhat different.  I’m not convinced any longer that they’re a great idea.  Think about 2000 if the election was Dubya vs. the Big Dog.  Most everyone I know believes that Clinton would have cleaned Bushie’s clock.  Clinton is a much better campaigner than Gore on Al’s best day, and way better than Bush on every day.</p>
<p>We’re going to be in a similar situation with Obama.  If he’s as effective a President as I hope he will be, he’ll be much too young to retire when he’s term-limited out.  Additionally, the two-term limit on Presidents makes them lame ducks after the third year of their first term, win or lose.  Without term limits, there is the threat that the President will run again.  With that threat, Congress has to take them more seriously.</p>
<p>Term limits were a good idea that doesn’t work in practice.  It’s possible that term limits might work with public financing of elections.  Remove legal bribery from lobbyists, and maybe you can remove enough power from lobbyists to help the citizenry.</p>
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		<title>By: Funnydiva2002</title>
		<link>http://fdlaction.firedoglake.com/2009/04/08/franken-coleman-update-040809-the-peeps-have-spoken/#comment-25674</link>
		<dc:creator>Funnydiva2002</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Apr 2009 03:30:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://campaignsilo.firedoglake.com/2009/04/08/franken-coleman-update-040809-the-peeps-have-spoken/#comment-25674</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;OMFG, PW!!!&lt;br /&gt;
Tim Pawlenty spinning like a Maytag Washer on Rachel Maddow’s show.  Pretending Equal Protection etc, etc, are actually live issues and that this is close.  Crock of shit!&lt;br /&gt;
So, anyway, Normie doesn’t look foolish to Timmy.&lt;br /&gt;
Sheeeeesh.&lt;br /&gt;
FunnyDiva&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>OMFG, PW!!!<br />
Tim Pawlenty spinning like a Maytag Washer on Rachel Maddow’s show.  Pretending Equal Protection etc, etc, are actually live issues and that this is close.  Crock of shit!<br />
So, anyway, Normie doesn’t look foolish to Timmy.<br />
Sheeeeesh.<br />
FunnyDiva</p>
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		<title>By: PJEvans</title>
		<link>http://fdlaction.firedoglake.com/2009/04/08/franken-coleman-update-040809-the-peeps-have-spoken/#comment-25673</link>
		<dc:creator>PJEvans</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Apr 2009 02:02:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://campaignsilo.firedoglake.com/2009/04/08/franken-coleman-update-040809-the-peeps-have-spoken/#comment-25673</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;The best kind of term limit is to not re-elect the @%^&amp;*. Easy to do, too.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The best kind of term limit is to not re-elect the @%^&amp;*. Easy to do, too.</p>
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		<title>By: tejanarusa</title>
		<link>http://fdlaction.firedoglake.com/2009/04/08/franken-coleman-update-040809-the-peeps-have-spoken/#comment-25671</link>
		<dc:creator>tejanarusa</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Apr 2009 00:04:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://campaignsilo.firedoglake.com/2009/04/08/franken-coleman-update-040809-the-peeps-have-spoken/#comment-25671</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;LOL! Me, too, Teddy - and it’s not something I would ever have thought would happen.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;If Norm is starting to look foolish even to those guys - you know it’s bad.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>LOL! Me, too, Teddy &#8211; and it’s not something I would ever have thought would happen.</p>
<p>If Norm is starting to look foolish even to those guys &#8211; you know it’s bad.</p>
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		<title>By: tejanarusa</title>
		<link>http://fdlaction.firedoglake.com/2009/04/08/franken-coleman-update-040809-the-peeps-have-spoken/#comment-25670</link>
		<dc:creator>tejanarusa</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Apr 2009 00:02:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://campaignsilo.firedoglake.com/2009/04/08/franken-coleman-update-040809-the-peeps-have-spoken/#comment-25670</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Thanks - I only looked at the court pic = and that was hysterical enough. Following your hint, I clicked through a few - my fave is “Riding with my Peep,” a few previous to the Election Court peeps.  The peep is riding a horse w/ the reins in his/her/its mouth. :0&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks &#8211; I only looked at the court pic = and that was hysterical enough. Following your hint, I clicked through a few &#8211; my fave is “Riding with my Peep,” a few previous to the Election Court peeps.  The peep is riding a horse w/ the reins in his/her/its mouth. :0</p>
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		<title>By: james</title>
		<link>http://fdlaction.firedoglake.com/2009/04/08/franken-coleman-update-040809-the-peeps-have-spoken/#comment-25669</link>
		<dc:creator>james</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Apr 2009 23:36:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://campaignsilo.firedoglake.com/2009/04/08/franken-coleman-update-040809-the-peeps-have-spoken/#comment-25669</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;don’t overlook Mark Begich&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>don’t overlook Mark Begich</p>
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		<title>By: Kassandra</title>
		<link>http://fdlaction.firedoglake.com/2009/04/08/franken-coleman-update-040809-the-peeps-have-spoken/#comment-25668</link>
		<dc:creator>Kassandra</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Apr 2009 22:49:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://campaignsilo.firedoglake.com/2009/04/08/franken-coleman-update-040809-the-peeps-have-spoken/#comment-25668</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;I think even some Democrats, and you know who I mean, are not looking forward to Franken in the Senate. He’s a total progressive and, hopefully, people are watching the antics of the Blue Dawgs and will boot them out in ‘10&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;http://campaigndiaries.com/2009/04/07/blanche-lincoln-and-efca/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;A week after sponsoring estate tax relief, Lincoln announces opposition to EFCA “in its current form”&lt;/a&gt;&lt;br /&gt;
A number of Senators are engaged in a hard-fought race to emerge as the chamber’s most conservative Democrat. In the running are such Senators as Mary Landrieu and Bill Nelson, perhaps even Mark Warner, Max Baucus and Michael Bennet. But the race looks to be coming down to three Democrats: Ben Nelson, Evan Bayh and Blanche Lincoln.
&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think even some Democrats, and you know who I mean, are not looking forward to Franken in the Senate. He’s a total progressive and, hopefully, people are watching the antics of the Blue Dawgs and will boot them out in ‘10</p>
<blockquote><p><a href="http://campaigndiaries.com/2009/04/07/blanche-lincoln-and-efca/" rel="nofollow">A week after sponsoring estate tax relief, Lincoln announces opposition to EFCA “in its current form”</a><br />
A number of Senators are engaged in a hard-fought race to emerge as the chamber’s most conservative Democrat. In the running are such Senators as Mary Landrieu and Bill Nelson, perhaps even Mark Warner, Max Baucus and Michael Bennet. But the race looks to be coming down to three Democrats: Ben Nelson, Evan Bayh and Blanche Lincoln.
</p>
</blockquote>
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		<title>By: runfastandwin</title>
		<link>http://fdlaction.firedoglake.com/2009/04/08/franken-coleman-update-040809-the-peeps-have-spoken/#comment-25667</link>
		<dc:creator>runfastandwin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Apr 2009 22:43:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://campaignsilo.firedoglake.com/2009/04/08/franken-coleman-update-040809-the-peeps-have-spoken/#comment-25667</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;A limit in the number of terms allowed per individual hasn’t worked in California, all it has given us is a bunch of people that have no idea how to fight back against the moneyed interests that control the government.  At least with people that had been in office for 10 or more years, we had a fighting chance.  Now, we have no chance.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A limit in the number of terms allowed per individual hasn’t worked in California, all it has given us is a bunch of people that have no idea how to fight back against the moneyed interests that control the government.  At least with people that had been in office for 10 or more years, we had a fighting chance.  Now, we have no chance.</p>
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		<title>By: TheLurkingMod</title>
		<link>http://fdlaction.firedoglake.com/2009/04/08/franken-coleman-update-040809-the-peeps-have-spoken/#comment-25666</link>
		<dc:creator>TheLurkingMod</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Apr 2009 22:26:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://campaignsilo.firedoglake.com/2009/04/08/franken-coleman-update-040809-the-peeps-have-spoken/#comment-25666</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;emptywheel at the top of the front again!&lt;br /&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/04/08/america-strikes-back-at-pirates-with-unions/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;America Strikes Back at Pirates … with Unions!!&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>emptywheel at the top of the front again!<br /><a href="http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/04/08/america-strikes-back-at-pirates-with-unions/" rel="nofollow">America Strikes Back at Pirates … with Unions!!</a></p>
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		<title>By: jacqrat</title>
		<link>http://fdlaction.firedoglake.com/2009/04/08/franken-coleman-update-040809-the-peeps-have-spoken/#comment-25665</link>
		<dc:creator>jacqrat</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Apr 2009 22:24:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://campaignsilo.firedoglake.com/2009/04/08/franken-coleman-update-040809-the-peeps-have-spoken/#comment-25665</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;OT: &lt;em&gt;“We’re shocked,” said Gary Schneeberger, a spokesman for Focus on the Family. &lt;/em&gt;&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.advocate.com/news_detail_ektid77819.asp&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Focus on the Family Employee Snared in Online Sex Sting&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Yeah, Gary, so are we… like, TOTALLY.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>OT: <em>“We’re shocked,” said Gary Schneeberger, a spokesman for Focus on the Family. </em></p>
<p><a href="http://www.advocate.com/news_detail_ektid77819.asp" rel="nofollow">Focus on the Family Employee Snared in Online Sex Sting</a></p>
<p>Yeah, Gary, so are we… like, TOTALLY.</p>
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