Influential Los Angeles Times columnist Steve Lopez wrote this sort of turgid tear jerker of a piece about Marjorie Christoffersen of El Coyote resigning over her Mormon faith-based donation to Yes on Prop 8. Here in part, is my response to him:
Marjorie Christoffersen never apologized to the many customers gathered there, never said she was sorry for a donation which took away their right to marry. Her action destroyed a trust, cutting her customers to the quick.
She never apologized for hurting her decades-long customers who honesty felt she liked them and cared about them. Her donation to end civil marriage equality in California showed she felt they were second-class citizens. That’s a tough enchilada to swallow.
She never acknowledged the hypocrisy of her church, which willingly took her tithe of ten per cent, and her donation of $100, earned from selling forbidden alcohol and coffee to gay customers….
I’m a straight woman, so technically I really don’t have a dog in the fight for civil marriage equality. By the powers vested in me by the State of California, I can perform weddings, though I have yet to perform a same-sex marriage. Being a right reverend has shown me an important point: Unless there is a paid, state-issued license correctly filled out, signed by the officiant, the participants and a witness, then mailed into the County Registrar Recorder, the marriage isn’t legal–even if Pat Robertson, the Pope, Mayor Villaraigosa or LDS president Thomas S. Monson performed it. Therefore, marriage is a civil contract. The anti-civil marriage campaign’s argument that churches would be forced to marry same-sex couples was specious: Any church can refuse any couple the use of their location–and many churches make their halls available only to their parish or denomination members.
Additionally, in California, civil unions are not available to opposite sex couples, therefore making the point that civil union is not equal to marriage…
Your article seemed to portray Marjorie as a victim. Well, she is: She’s a victim a rigid belief system that did not allow blacks into the priesthood until their Prophet received divine revelation in 1978. She is a victim of a faith that hypocritically allows its members to profit off the "sins" of the unbelievers. She, like so many religious folk of various denominations, is a victim of her faith’s training which prevents her look outside the box, the cage, of her "lifetime of faith" and examine how her own experience differs from her church’s teachings. So many religions deny their followers direct contact and gnosis–direct knowledge of their God–instead allowing hierarchy of hierophants to dictate thoughts, belief and action, leveraging salvation–and peer approval–through fear and control…
As a native Angeleno, I hope El Coyote does not disappear; I hope that its customer base returns to support the staff and this historic restaurant. It would be sad to lose a piece of history and have an ugly scar on Beverly Blvd in place of the low slung white adobe building with its iconic neon sign. And to have 89 more people unemployed in a city facing a massive economic downturn.
I feel for Marjorie, that her faith has so harmed her and those who thought of her as a truly compassionate friend. Her world has been shaken; she suddenly learned that her comforting religion rent asunder decades of friendships, her family’s legacy in Los Angeles, and perhaps even caused a chink in her own beliefs.
She and those who were used by their faiths to further a un-American agenda of stripping and denying rights to one set of citizens need our prayers that the scales will fall from their eyes. And those of us concerned about civil marriage rights need to continue to work on levels–practical, political, and spiritual–to secure and insure those rights for all.




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Dugg right here
Utah “Prophet” say disaster will prevent Obama from taking office.
http://www.latimes.com/news/na…..1803.story
How many know that most if not all of Mormon injunctions such as against coffee, tea, tobacco and gays came about and come about via “Channeling” by LDS “Prophets” exactly like the J.Z. Knight Ramtha BS. Married a gay male with the promise Ramtha would cure him of AIDS. He is now deceased.
Cult Rule = Mob Rule
A “rigid belief-system” that differs from your own rigid belief-system? That means that, of course, she deserves a screwing.
Perhaps if you advocate action based on reason you wouldn’t be adding to intolerance.
From the LA Times article, I had a hard time with this:
This is false reasoning. Any church happens to be comprised of their parishioners, not some abstract organization. A church is not a company, you influence a church by influencing the members of it.
I also don’t agree with the sentiments of one of the El Coyote employees:
The issue here isn’t about taking away anyone’s opinion or speech. But America’s “free speech” (which many seem to misunderstand) comes with consequences. It’s pathetic to see Mormons crying about being picked on after they orchestrated one of the greatest acts of hatred in this nation in decades. They chose to stir this pot.
Your endless tit-for-tat – he’s intolerant of my intolerance – doesn’t fly.
Outrage at the abidance of stripping clearly enumerated rights from anyone is well supported, and your suggestion that a fight against it is intolerance is nothing but sophistry.
Aside from the fact that the “clearly enumerated rights” aren’t going to remain stripped, I agree with the outrage part of your statement. What I’m pissing and moaning about is petty shortsightedness at directing that outrage at vulnerable individuals who are guilty of no more than supporting Prop 8.
Take the energy and use it to your advantage and not just to pull down the small and weak amongst your opponents.
Tough.
These “vulnerable individuals” you champion are no less culpable. They align themselves with bigger haters, and the mission is no less hateful because they aren’t on the TV.
Sophistry is saying that they’re no less culpable than what you call “bigger haters”.
Prop 8 passed with support from millions in California. Screwing a couple of dozen small fry doesn’t do a damn thing to change that.
Try addressing the miscalculation that allowed this thing to ever get on the ballot.
The second part first:
A large part of the reason this got on the ballot, and this is admitted to by many in LGBT coalitions – is that they rested, didn’t see it coming, could not imagine the torrent of dollars in the other guys corner after the State Supremes handed down. I am not about to blame the victims – that is somebody else’s duty.
Besides that, when I vote, I know what I’m voting for. If you are insisting that voters and contributors got snookered by confusing language, I have a suggestion: read it before you pull the lever/write the check/join protesters on street corners.
As to screwing the “small fry” over this – again: read the legislation before you join a movement.
Actions have consequences.
Ms Christoffersen chose to blindly follow the dictates of her religion without any thought of the consequences.
Oh well.
We live in amongst a stupid, brainwashed, moronic society…of that I am convinced….bring it on morons…I proclaim that I’m a prophet, and I proclaim that they are full of male bovine manure.
This stuff is so incredibly insane.
Is El Coyote noticeably suffering a loss of business as a result of a boycott from its gay customers and their friends and supporters?
Wow, it just amazes me to read these comments.
Like getting uppity makes a g-d difference or makes any one commenter a better person. I don’t think it does, but if it makes you feel better, well, whatever gets you off.
‘Course anyone here who already believes they know more or feels more than anyone else, they’re missing a higher point.
Pious doesn’t work for me.
Love is patient and kind and doesn’t need a stiffy.
Its a great letter, Lisa Derrick. Very well done. It jibes well with the Lopez piece.
She quit her job. Maybe she hasn’t read the unemployment reports. Jobs are scarce.
Just. Yikes.
Kind ladies and kind gentlemen,
Soon I will be gone,
But let me just warn you all,
Before I do pass on;
Stay free from petty jealousies,
Live by no man’s code,
And hold your judgment for yourself
Lest you wind up on this road.
Yeah, people simply shouldn’t comment. That’s the ticket.
That’s a very narrow interpretation of what I said.
I guess people who have died as a result of the ramping up of religious emotions resulting in war and violence towards other religious groups or against other humans with differing lifestyles, battling over whose God is more real, should be comforted by love.
Those words of mine are words of the worldly not the spiritual, or not.
Someone mentioned above that a church is not a company……believe me, the Mormon Church IS a company. They own a lot of real estate including bars which they, of course, do not use (if you believe that I will be worried about you). It is a company as surely as GE.
I’m not arguing about who’s got is right.
I’m not clear on what you are saying.
Should I not comment as well? Is that it? Trying to understand your sarcasm.
That’s the point, the entire point, and nothing but the point.
Since it’s a civil agreement, I think all marriages should be done at the courthouse in front of the clerk for legal validity’s sake. Then do whatever damn ceremony you want. Dnace nude in the full moon or get sealed in your crazy temple of whatever denomination. It’s all good.
I also believe the line or lines in whatever state that are like “by the power vested in me by the state of X” should be eliminated. It should read something more along the lines of “Since the State of X has accepted the wishes of M and M, it is my pleasure to introduce M and M as spouses.”
The power is not invested in the ceremonial person or religious system. It’s with the state, and making that clear would do a world of good.
Heh. Reminds me of papal infallibility, suddenly discovered by the R.C. powers that be in 1870 by the powers-that-were.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papal_infallibility
Here’s what I saw happen:
In the state where you and I both live, a ballot measure was put forth that amended the state constitution to strip a right – that’s correct, strip existing rights – from a class of people.
You can refer to outrage at this any way you like, but recall our fights against the federal government on these kinds of issues. Do you really want to sit back and let that happen?
If impolitic was ever called for, this was it. I will not spare those who threw in with liars and haters, whether out of ignorance or their own hatred, to subvert the enumerated rights of anyone. And I will not listen to the ‘angry right’ who throttled us with hate and derision and condescension for the last 3 decades and told us to be polite, whilst destroying the fibers of the Republic.
Timid is how we got here. I am not going back.
Scuse my garbled post. Was going back & forth with wiki while typing & didn’t reread what I wrote.
Thanks Lisa. You “get it.” Steve Lopez doesn’t. (No surprise.)
This is war. We’ve taken names, we’re kickin’ ass, and we’re NOT taking any prisoners.
I am a straight older female, so really no dog in the fight. But, living in NYC with many gay friends, and observing the anti-gay frenzy in some important places from a democracy POV, I’ve thought a lot about why that is so. It’s clearly not because the bible sez so, since the bible sez slavery’s just dandy and I don’t see the same people arguing in favor of a return to slavery. So I’ve tentatively concluded it’s a cynical devise of certain people in power to retain their position by using gays as a convenient enemy.
And anyone who falls into that fallacy deserves any lawful consequences of her actions.
I watched it too.
I am not timid either, newtonusr.
My point was that if we can’t discuss this issue with an attitude without trust and a desire to try and understand what’s going on here, if we can’t discuss this without an attitude that is going to close the conversation, then we’re not going to have affective communication. Without that, there will little hope of making change happen.
I want things to change. I want for people to love each other. If I can’t talk to people here, then I shall have to work for change in a different way.
There is no “right” or “wrong”…there is one truth, and no human knows what it is.
I guess when you say that a commenter, any commenter is “uppity”…well, that is abrasive and a bit judgmental and doesn’t sound like a positive, translation of the use of the words in a comment by a commenter… I don’t think anyone on FDL ever has a negative intention toward anyone….it is a dialog of thoughts, theories, and feelings. No one “owns” truth. Isn’t that much obvious?
Isn’t is said that one shouldn’t try to discuss religion, art, or politics…heh…heh…
I guess that is why there are blogs…but I guess we go at it all the time.
here, here.
Even when commenters are uppity? Are we not allowed to call them out here? I missed that rule.
Uppity is abrasive?
You’ve never thought that about any comment here?
You must be a much nicer person than I.
I’ll back off.
Bwahahahaha…I’m referring back to comment #13….Geez…always on my case….heh, heh, heh….
strikes too close to home?
They’re a corporation. Says so on a lot of stuff they have copyrights and trademarks on. (Ask genealogists, because we have to live with them; they have the biggest data collection in the world.)
I read your name as macacaman. Is that code?
i’d like to think so. anyone have info on that?
Infallibility, the nuclear weapon of papal politics. They really can’t use ti, because it calls into question everything they did before that. (Read Garry Wills’s Papal Sin, and see how political the popes have been, and how little respect and understanding the have of democracy in general and American democracy in particular. Benny the Pope in nothing new; in fact, he’s right down the main line of the last couple of centuries: central command, and no thinking from the underlings.)
I’m going to be uppity and say that I think Marjorie got exactly what she deserved. She can think what she wants to but to make money from people her church detests is not okay. Not to me. The Mormon Church is about making money – lots of money and that’s all.
Not sure what you are saying.
Spell it out.
You don’t think we need trust and compassion in this dialog? Or?
Just saying that uppity is in the mind of the reader. Tolerance also involves allowing people to call them like they see them. I did not interpret demi’s comments the way you did.
Who wrote that?
So, a guy has a press conference
other guy get’s mad
throws shoes
Hmmm…what I have thought???? That would fill worthless volumes of life…
I’m suggesting that we allow any and all comments to be valid expressions of whatever the person feels or thinks (as long as it isn’t violent, etc.), without labeling a person as anything. I have dear friends whose thoughts on religion or politics, etc., astound me….I still love them though…No one can be “uppity”, because everyone has fundamental, physical realities that dash those very thoughts instantly…if you think about it..*g*.
Robert Zimmerman
Hibbing Minn.
I’ve always thought that ‘uppity’ meant “above your class/station” and I find the use of ‘uppity’ to be derisive and negative no matter to whom it was aimed.
Of course the LDS Church is run like a company, they have assets and power. But they were founded as a church, not as a profit center (or maybe they were…). Churches are driven by the faith and the followers, not profit per se. You can hurt a company like Apple (the example from the LA Times article) by not buying their products. You can hurt a church by ostracizing their followers or having them denounce the actions of their church. For a church the followers are the product. Which is why I take issue with the sentiments in the article that you can’t hold the followers responsible for what their church does.
I was raised R.C., but abandoned it a half century ago, so only dip back in as conditions arise. I suspect something happened in 1870 that really threatened the church that provoked them to invoke what you so aptly term the nuclear weapon. It works the first time, but you are right about how useless it is in the normal course of events.
The stream of consciousness that led me to that analogy is the article about Benny’s pronouncements on medical ethics, as reported in an article in yesterday’s NYT that I read while eating dinner tonight.
So what if you interpreted it a different way..fine. Uppity is uppity. I didn’t bring up “uppity”…I was responding.
well, um, i think you are accusing someone of being judgemental by being judgemental. that’s all. no big deal. all this is cathartic. not talkin about it would be a mistake. everyone should just say what they think then defend it. i personally don’t mind being called to task. you have done it to me. so what? peace.
bob dylan in the hobo.
You are so f’ing funny.
You just make me smile.
I wondered too.
Don’t Get Above Your Raisin’
Flats and Scruggs
like I said
Reasonable people might disagree about that. For example, when was there ever a religion that was not about power, or money, or both? Isn’t “faith” just an device to acquire power, money?
Rhetorical Q.
:>
Hail Rastafari
I asked you if you had never thought that someones comment was uppity? I’m sure all of our thoughts could fill the oceans. People can have their own judgements. My point, again, is to say if someone wants to say something further than expressing their own personal, valid opinion, wants to engage in a conversation that furthers the understanding of the cause, not just their own ego, then we need something else.
Speak to the problem. I’m not the problem.
i’m missing the specific complaint. could you point to it(them), please.
My 59 was a question to someone else.
My specific question to you was # 41.
What we have here
is a failure to communicate.
Just scanned wiki on Rastafarians, as I knew nothing about it but the name. Sez Haile Selassie is a member of the trinity. (Or Highly Silly, as me & my late husband used to quip.) Except for the use of cannabis, I’d be surprised if there weren’t some authoritarian motive buried there somewhere and when that exists, profit is a close second. But I plead ignorance, so accept this comment as wild speculation.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rastafari
no ma’am. original complaint is what i am lookin fer.
loved the movie.
You or I are most definitely not the “problem” Demi…No, I don’t think that anybody’s comments are “uppity”, because I don’t believe in uppitiness in general (besides, they are all broke now, so they are downigans or something)…It is not about an ego…geez, I certainly can guarantee you that in my own personal case…I’m not about an ego, if that is what you are thinking…geez..
I’m just saying that all ideas and thoughts should be able to be heard…now…that said…
Bushco should be …. banned forever.
Yes, that’s it. Heat of the Night?
I ain’t from the south. Little s. Or Torrance. Ha.
707
I have to admit it’s been, ah, um, interesting to follow this thread.
cool hand luke.
Then, I suggest, you are talking about human nature not religion. And if you never spent some time up on Red Ground in Negril before the fatties from New Jersey moved into the All Inclusive swinger joints down the beach. . .well let’s just say it was swell.
I’m tryin my best to queer the deal. . .so to speak!
‘Uppity’ has a specific racial component that would behoove any speaker here to avoid, I would think.
Geez, some of my comments have definitely been uppity. Now I’m pissed that you never recognized that. *g*
lots of sound and furry signifying nothing
I disagree, it’s used just as much to describe women.
My original comment, was that if people just shout at each other and think they know it all, then we cannot have a conversation.
Sorry if I didn’t say that before. Several times.
No problem with you.
It ain’t personal. Just trying to suggest that when we have as difficult and complex problem as this, we have to have compassion.
And, I realize that I don’t always express my thoughts in a way that others don’t feel I’m judging or am preaching.
hadn’t thought of it that way. i only thought pious but that’s me.
And the difference between religion & human nature is what? Jerking your chain. No response expected.
Never participated in the particular experience you cite, but have had some myself. Would differentiate between spiritual experiences and organized religions, though the latter would like to maintain a monopoly on the former.
Mwahahahaha…I’m falling off my uppity chair!!! I’m LMFAO!!! *G*!
I’d be surprised if there weren’t some authoritarian motive buried there somewhere and when that exists, profit is a close second.
Ah, shit.
If we could all be so all knowing, politically correct, wouldn’t it all be easier?
Please forgive me.
your original said comments expressed were
Wow, it just amazes me to read these comments.
Like getting uppity makes a g-d difference or makes any one commenter a better person. I don’t think it does, but if it makes you feel better, well, whatever gets you off.
‘Course anyone here who already believes they know more or feels more than anyone else, they’re missing a higher point.
Pious doesn’t work for me.
Love is patient and kind and doesn’t need a stiffy.
now. what were the comments?
Yuck. Having one’s words thrown back on one is exceedingly distasteful. *g*
I’m sure you meant that in a nonjudgemental way.
I wouldn’t be commenting here if I didn’t care.
Just speaking for myself.
Uppity seems to be a word with no antonym. We should invent downity. Now who to use it against?
No throwin, providing the requested reference.
Subsurvient
my motives were to respond to your question, ma’am. that’s all.
You’re pushing my buttons on purpose aren’t you?
I said comments here, without being specific, On Purpose.
There were two commenters going at it.
Pick one.
You win.
subservient
you know how hard it is to keep up the fire here and watch SNF athe same time?
Evoking masters & slaves.
Good antonym. We still should invent downity.
awright you two, it’s almost beey bye time here in Georgia and I don’t want to go to bed not knowing you are going to call real truce
Cheney for one…..W….Libby…Judy…Chalabi…just ideas.. No “forgiving”, because they think they are “cute” escaping” shoes flying and that sort of thing…..ahem.
scratchin and shufflin
no ma’am. YOU pick one. that’s the point. get to it please.
Humble?
And, quick before someone throws a show at me, I didn’t mean me. Just trying to think of an antonym.
People here may disagree with me.
People may wonder about me being enigmatic.
They may just hate me.
But, I can get a conversation going.
Yep.
Whew! Dylan. Hope you are well, you had me worried.
The last has not been heard about shoes. I could get into that Arab thing. Lots of good ideas on an earlier thread about throwing shoes over the WH fence. Just make sure to handle them wearing gloves so they can’t trace you by fingerprints.
Not bad, awful throat for a week but I’m almost back! Now that you are here I can slip off to the land of winkin, blinkin and nod!
fingerprints. what are you throwing, patent leather?
Humble and Raven’s subsurvient. I hadn’t thought about it intelligently before posting my comment. But now I’m in love with downity.
Nope. I already said I didnt’ pick one on purpose….
But, just so Raven can get a good nights sleep.
Here’s me waving the white hankerchief.
Oh, hell, the people I was speaking to already p’ssied out. Go ahead, mod. Cut it.
I watch all the CSIs as one of my many guilty pleasures. And they can find fingerprints on any surfaces except fleece. So better safe than sorry.
And if you think your finger prints are not in the computer, think again. Yours, Raven, are there because of your military service. Mine are in because I was bonded when I worked on Wall ST. I don’t know what % of pop have fingerprints on file, but I’d guess it’s surprisingly high.
If you can’t read, just keep making noise.
Sweety….me too.
Will meditate on that as I slip off as well.
((eCAHN))- smart girlfriend. Loves me them.)
Sugar plums and all that.
Whoa, dude.
No one is mean to Loo Hoo. (and gets away with it.)
Really.
Gnite demi, Raven.
Don’t feed the trolls.
Love you Demi, and remember, the flowers will start coming soon in the Spring…that is what is really important. I hope it rains.
Please see comment to which I’m responding.
Yes, sir. Hug the tigers for me.
It’s a bit before that will happen here, but I still think of you when I see something blooming here. I do.
Tea time, loves.
Chamomille and a hot bath.
No. Just me and my current book.
All y’all are still in my prayers.
Sayonara, demi.
Well, it has not rained here in months…the ground is broken up into cracks everywhere you walk….the winds have been the strongest ever….topsoil blowing away…Oy. Something must be coming…I think, because the large old oaks have had no water…something is coming…or else…something is not, because of global warming. Scary…
(((Demi!)))
To Understand Not Comprehend Mormons educate yourselves as what pollution does to All Human Minds and Bodies. The Global Economy has produced a toxic waste dump Globally and no area has been left untouched.
http://ndep.nv.gov/mercury/docs/mineweb_120505.pdf
The current president grew up in the most polluted state in the union and no amount of money alters toxic dementia.